1. Assuming multiple reports on the topic Derrick Rose MUST be suspended. I don't care what the family issue was. There is absolutely no excuse for not contacting/not being receptive to contact from the Knicks. You tell your agent/friend to speak to them on your behalf. The Knicks reportedly are "livid".
2. Things were already going downhill with Rose/Hornacek. Even if unrelated I think it's more likely than not this will help the Knicks make their Rose decision going forward.
"Knicks officials didn’t hear from Rose that he was OK until after an embarrassing loss to New Orleans, a confirmation that sources said began the next conversation within the organization: What do they do with Rose now?
In the aftermath of going AWOL at The Garden, Knicks officials need to further determine Rose’s passion to return to the team and continue playing.
Rose has put into peril his short-term role – with the possibility of a suspension, sources said – and the longer-term chances to land a lucrative contract extension with the Knicks in July, league sources told The Vertical.
Rose, the 2011 NBA Most Valuable Player and a three-time All-Star, has suffered through several serious injuries and has diminished as an elite point guard in the league. He’s had an up-and-down season for the Knicks, who have lost eight of nine games and dropped to 17-21."
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If you can show me a single reason that isn't KP to be optimistic about the Knicks or how they are run, please share.
Don't tell me who to root for. I can both be a fan of the team and state the obvious that the Knicks are an extremely poorly run franchise. Its not like that is some kind of controversial statement.
Lemme see... they have their first round picks going forward. They have some players like Hernangomez and Kuz who look like they can contribute (maybe even Baker). Have only one really bad deal with Noah. Only 2 more yrs on Melo's deal if he doesn't request a trade before then. It's not as bad as you want to believe.
Kuz is 27, and both Kuz and Baker are just guys. You aren't building a contender around Kuz, and Baker is a typical end of the bench guard. You have to do some MAJOR projecting to believe Baker is anything special Every team in the NBA has guys like Baker.
Hermangomez can be a good player, but again, you think the Knicks are building a championship contender because of Hermangomez?
Like you look around the NBA and see the loaded rosters and think to yourself "Glad the Knicks have Kuz, Baker and Hermangomez" as a source of optimism? Sure, if the Knicks won the lottery and added Fultz, you might say Hermangomez has a good chance to be a good role player. However, look at the Knicks young core and compare it to say the Wolves, the Bucks or the 6ers and you think what the Knicks have inspires confidence? Best players under 25:
Knicks: KP/Hermangomez/Baker
76ers: Simmons/Embiid/Noel or Saaric
Wolves: KAT/Lavine/Wiggins
Bucks: Giannis/Parker/Middleton
Well sure- Knicks have all our picks! However, our pick will almost definitely be lower then the 76ers or the Wolves, plus the 76ers have the Lakers pick coming up how soon as well. Or what about the 3rd in the East celtics, who also have some super high 1st rounders coming soon, as well as a ton of high upside young talent? Or the Jazz?
I mean, how do you look at the types of moves the Knicks have made over the past few seasons, what other teams in the NBA have on their roster and their picks and think optimistically about the Knicks future?
the reason you become a fan of a team is because you enjoy watching them.play, you want them to win and it takes you away from life for a couple of hours, but if you are so miserable why even bother?
why soend hours on a message board talking about how miserable they are? i can think m of 100 different things i would rather do than to bitch about my teams...
Sports don't make me miserable. Speaking the truth about the Knicks doesnt make me less of a fan, nor does fully supporting everything the Knicks do make you more of a fan. You choose to look at the Knicks with a glass half full approach, good for you. I, and many others, choose to look at the Knicks with a more realistic approach to what they've done and what their history shows us.
Again, that doesn't make me miserable. I love basketball, and I can be honest as to what my team is doing without it impacting my emotions.
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but we disagree on rose's ranking and talent level. You think he's one of the worst PG's, I think he's slightly better than average.
Ok let's say he's slightly better then average. Here are the top 10 teams in each conference, with their starting PG:
1) Cavs- Kyrie
2) Raptors- Lowry
3) Celtics- Thomas
4) Hawks- Schroeder
5) Pacers- Teague
6) Hornets- Kemba
7) Wizards- Wall
8) Bucks- Giannis
9) Bulls- a PG shit show, so he'd probably be an upgrade but they need shooting. Also can't see a scenario they trade back for him.
10) Pistons- Jackson
West-
1) Warriors- Curry
2) Spurs- Parker, but Mills is really their main PG
3) Rockets- Harden
4) Clippers- Paul
5) Griz- Conley
6) Jazz- Hill
7) Thunder- Westbrook
8) Blazers- Lillard
9) Kings- Collison
10) Kings- Holliday
So find me a team in the above 20 teams who fit the following 3 options:
1) Rose would be an upgrade for them. I won't even argue whoever you pick, you just have to believe that to be true.
2) Rose would be a talent fit. Again, won't even argue what you pick, you just have to be able to make the case for it.
3) if you can find anyone who fits the criteria for 1 and 2, find me a deal that fits under the cap using ESPN trade machine that's a realistic one.
I'm not trying to back and forth, I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see any deals that make sense.
I actually think the team that makes the most sense of those listed would be Milwaukee. First, it would probably make Rose happy if being away from his son really is the big issue for him. Chicago and Milwaukee are less than 2 hours apart.
From the Bucks point of view, they could use scoring off the bench, and if you look at that team, the one guy that they could definitely benefit to upgrade over is the 20-30 minutes per night that they are giving to Dellavedova. I know earlier in the year, and even dating back to last season, there were rumblings that they were looking to move on from Greg Monroe. A Rose for Monroe deal straight up works according to the trade machine. If Milwaukee throws in a pick that might be the best NY can hope for.
Not to mention, Giannis is their PG. He's playing 36 minutes, so even if you think having a primary ball handler back up would make sense and back off some of Giannis's minutes, that leaves like 16 minutes that a ball dominant guard would have to play. Rose simply can't play off the ball. If Rose is unhappy here, you think he's going to be happy playing sub 20 minutes as a bench player?
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Kuz is 27, and both Kuz and Baker are just guys. You aren't building a contender around Kuz, and Baker is a typical end of the bench guard. You have to do some MAJOR projecting to believe Baker is anything special Every team in the NBA has guys like Baker.
Hermangomez can be a good player, but again, you think the Knicks are building a championship contender because of Hermangomez?
Like you look around the NBA and see the loaded rosters and think to yourself "Glad the Knicks have Kuz, Baker and Hermangomez" as a source of optimism? Sure, if the Knicks won the lottery and added Fultz, you might say Hermangomez has a good chance to be a good role player. However, look at the Knicks young core and compare it to say the Wolves, the Bucks or the 6ers and you think what the Knicks have inspires confidence? Best players under 25:
Knicks: KP/Hermangomez/Baker
76ers: Simmons/Embiid/Noel or Saaric
Wolves: KAT/Lavine/Wiggins
Bucks: Giannis/Parker/Middleton
Well sure- Knicks have all our picks! However, our pick will almost definitely be lower then the 76ers or the Wolves, plus the 76ers have the Lakers pick coming up how soon as well. Or what about the 3rd in the East celtics, who also have some super high 1st rounders coming soon, as well as a ton of high upside young talent? Or the Jazz?
I mean, how do you look at the types of moves the Knicks have made over the past few seasons, what other teams in the NBA have on their roster and their picks and think optimistically about the Knicks future?
Jeremy Lin was just your typical end of the bench type guard too... until he wasn't. I am not saying Baker is ever going to become what Lin is but I'd like to see him get a chance to prove himself. He's at least proven he deserves more minutes.
You need "just guys" to build a championship caliber team, no? I am not gonna freak out because the Knicks decided to try and put a team around their highest paid player and went for it. It's not working, but with the one lottery pick they had they wound up drafting a foundational player in Porzingis while trying to win. They weren't doing the same thing the Sixers and Timberwolves were doing because neither of those teams had a Carmelo Anthony type of talent on their team.
So now we'll see. If this season continues to go the way it's going they'll have another lottery pick and we'll see who they get there. Nothing is a given, but at least they'll have a chance at a premiere talent to add to KP and the "just guys" type players in Kuz and Hernangomez.
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Jeremy Lin was just your typical end of the bench type guard too... until he wasn't. I am not saying Baker is ever going to become what Lin is but I'd like to see him get a chance to prove himself. He's at least proven he deserves more minutes.
You need "just guys" to build a championship caliber team, no? I am not gonna freak out because the Knicks decided to try and put a team around their highest paid player and went for it. It's not working, but with the one lottery pick they had they wound up drafting a foundational player in Porzingis while trying to win. They weren't doing the same thing the Sixers and Timberwolves were doing because neither of those teams had a Carmelo Anthony type of talent on their team.
So now we'll see. If this season continues to go the way it's going they'll have another lottery pick and we'll see who they get there. Nothing is a given, but at least they'll have a chance at a premiere talent to add to KP and the "just guys" type players in Kuz and Hernangomez.
For sure, Baker should get more minutes because we have no reason to not give him them. I wont argue there- I would have been OVERJOYED if the Knicks had a PG rotation of say Grant, Randle and Baker and a C rotation of Lopez, O'Quinn and Hermangomez this season(with some KP in there).
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
yeah because your way can guarantee a championship team?
man the sixers have tanked for how many years now? yeah they are contenders..
how bout those Timberwolves!
the bucks have young talent but now they are a middle of the pack team, can they keep getting better?
you can not guarantee shit with the way you want to build, just like i cant say my way is better
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
Is there some other reality we're not seeing? This is a roster Phil built to contend THIS season...yet they are are 4 games under .500 and have the 26th ranked defense. They are significantly closer to the lottery than contending. That's reality. Other than KP, what's to get excited about going forward? They don't even have max cap space this summer thanks to Phil's moves...and even if they did he's proven unable to even get top free agents to meet with him. Looks like they'll get a late lottery pick...let's hope they get someone good.
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
Naaah your right, the view that the Knicks are building the right way to a championship are DEFINITELY the ones who are being realistic!
yeah because your way can guarantee a championship team?
man the sixers have tanked for how many years now? yeah they are contenders..
how bout those Timberwolves!
the bucks have young talent but now they are a middle of the pack team, can they keep getting better?
you can not guarantee shit with the way you want to build, just like i cant say my way is better
Yea, you are SO right. Its practically a toss up which roster you'd rather have between the Timberwolves or the Bucks and the Knicks!
Its ok to be scared of numbers, but they wont bite you.
That doesn't mean what you think it means. If you're unwilling to learn what stats mean, thats fine, but maybe don't criticize just because you don't understand?
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
what does it say that Phil can't even get the team to that level?
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In comment 13320391 nygiants16 said:
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
How about that Rose is tradable?
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In comment 13320403 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13320391 nygiants16 said:
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in rose because the fact is no one knows who would want him, i dont care if your view is the "realistic" one or not..
and dont ask me to give you the team that will trade for him..
there have been plenty of players in thia league traded that people though were untradeable
Its hilarious how you are the same person who challenges other peoples opinions ALL the time if they don't align with yours and says "lets watch a game and back up our opinions", yet you have no problem stating things that you have zero interest backing up on a regular basis.
Seriously though, you are right- Phil is building a real winner here. Lets resign Rose and get that Knicks championship we've all been waiting for.
yeah because i said the knivks are on their way next your to winnkng a championship...
and wtf are you talking about?
i challenge everyone? really so i am supposed to agree with everyones opinions?
and what have i stated that i have zero interest in backing up?
How about that Rose is tradable?
Well he's an expiring deal so he technically IS tradable. That being said he's not tradable for anything with much value.
What we have to hope is he plays great for the next month and some team who needs another scoring guard can give us something of value. If not, just let him walk.
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I'd be happy at this point with the Knicks just not sucking and being a joke of a basketball organization. Make the playoffs, finish above .500.
what does it say that Phil can't even get the team to that level?
Nothing has proven it yet. However, I think starting now he can seriously consider life post Melo, which is not something he could do before. Not when they re-signed him.
you are thebonly person i have asked to actually watch the game because all you use is stats to back up your claim and quite honestly i am not the only one who said it to you...
i have plenty of debates with other posters and never once have i attacked the personally...
and dont act like you never attack people personally, any poster that shows an ounce of optimism you call a homer or delusional...
how about this nevdr adress me on here and i wont adress you, deal?
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated. Im pretty exhausted from the media and fans trying to justify moves like the Rose deal as a good gamble. It was stupid to begin with.
Knicks are constantly the dumbest money at the table in the NBA. Buying names, retooling for a run at the "playoffs" where maybe you could steal a round, as if that is a goal for an aging team.
We get into this situation time and again because of the casual "I just want to see some good basketball already" attitude. Getting Rose and Noah when they cant take you anywhere is an embarrassment was more than a rebuild year.
.500 basketball is the worst unless you are an upswing to something better with good young talent (Milwaukee).
What does that get you? You get to purchase overpriced MSG tickets in April to get blown out by the Celtics or the Cavs just so you can post on FB/snapchat that you went to a Knicks playoff game? I've done that ordeal and it's the worst.
NBA playoffs are the most deceiving team. Being in the NBA playoffs doesn't indicate that you are relevant like it does with the NFL and MLB.
You can't win without stars and in the new CBA stars will not be leaving the teams that drafted them because they will be losing $70M if they choose to do so. That really only leaves one way to build and that's by landing stars in the draft.
Ironically, the Rose trade was the one move I was in favor of this past summer, figuring we could spin him for an asset or two if he plays well for half a season (See: Aroldis Chapman). I was giving the Knicks way too much credit though. Now we just have to cut our losses and get what we can in the way of draft picks for some of these guys.
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated. Im pretty exhausted from the media and fans trying to justify moves like the Rose deal as a good gamble. It was stupid to begin with.
Knicks are constantly the dumbest money at the table in the NBA. Buying names, retooling for a run at the "playoffs" where maybe you could steal a round, as if that is a goal for an aging team.
We get into this situation time and again because of the casual "I just want to see some good basketball already" attitude. Getting Rose and Noah when they cant take you anywhere is an embarrassment was more than a rebuild year.
The bold is the basis for 99% of my debates with fans of my own teams. If I'm a Browns fan I want them to be really, really good even if the build is going to take 2-3 more years with my franchise sucking all this time. I'm not trading my first for Tony Romo and exclaiming "All I want is to be watchable again".
It's fine that some people just want there team to be "watchable" but I'd much prefer suffering through multiple awful Knicks seasons with the result being 3-4 very good young talents than the Knicks adding veterans and being a capped 45 max win roster. It's near comic levels the way people mock the Wolves. if we swapped rosters most on here would be MIA from BBI thanks to all of the splooge on their keyboards. The Knicks are neither talented nor young with upside. It's a MASSIVE if but sans KP the Knicks situation would likely be better than only one team... the Nets. KP is the one beacon of hope.
Again, I don't think you understand metrics or what they mean. PER is a really flawed stat because it doesnt pay attention to defense, but the top 11 in PER is Westbrook, Giannis, AD, Harden, CP3, KD, Cousins, Thomas, Kawhi, Lebron and Butler.
I'm guessing you don't have a problem with that, right?
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
A) Metrics aren't "pure bs". Every single winning team in every single major sport has 100% adopted analytics. Who knows more- Daryl Morey or Carl in CT?
B) I've mentioned metrics once in this entire thread.
C) Your eyes are a piece of the puzzle that go with stats. Its always been like that.
D) Anyone who throws away stats for their "eyes" shouldnt comment on players they don't watch every game. You aren't watching enough basketball to have opinions on players on teams you watch less then say 30 games of if you ignore stats.
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In comment 13320385 nygiants16 said:
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your view is the realistic one and anyone who views the optomistic is a homer and delusional..
I dont say it out loud a lot, but I basically agree. I viewed this roster with no long term optimism beyond having KP and I think I've been vindicated.
I don't think anyone with a brain was thinking about the roster "long-term" when 95% of these guys wouldn't be around when KP reaches his peak. The Rose trade didn't work out... he'll be gone after the season. It isn't the end of the world.
I'm very optimistic about this team long-term because they have the most difficult issue solved... a young star to build the franchise around. That's the part that bad teams struggle with. They finally have all of their draft picks, so they'll be able to add a piece each season if the player pans out.
Tell that to the Pelicans?
Tell that to the Pelicans?
When you trade 2 lottery picks for Jrue Holliday, you get what you deserve.
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
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should be noted that Kanter is arguably one of the most talented 1 way bigs in the NBA. He's an incredible offensive big... but absolutely pathetic defensively. If Kanter were even average defensively he's likely be a 20+ 10 superstar (more minutes).
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
Well if Amar'e were an even average defender he'd be a perennial MVP. I'm not even a big Kanter fan (he's fucking awful defensively) but I'm willing to accept he's one of the best offensive bigs in the NBA. He's really talented... on one side of the ball.
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Tell that to the Pelicans?
When you trade 2 lottery picks for Jrue Holliday, you get what you deserve.
Sure, but the point is you need to find young talent to build around a young superstar. KP most likely will never end up the player AD is(injuries aside), and the Pelicans have made a lot of very similar all in moves to the Knicks, rather then being patient. The Knicks havent shown the level of patience needed to prove they can build around a young superstar.
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should be noted that Kanter is arguably one of the most talented 1 way bigs in the NBA. He's an incredible offensive big... but absolutely pathetic defensively. If Kanter were even average defensively he's likely be a 20+ 10 superstar (more minutes).
he is stoudemire just not as athletic
STAT couldn't play in the post ever. Kanter is kind of the opposite, extremely skilled but no athletic whatsoever. Kanter may even be a better rebounder.
Agreed. I don't really ever look at PER because of the way it essentially ignores defense. RPM is my favorite all in metric, although it has its flaws as well, especially with sample size and with understanding roles and volume.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
The only 2 guys he's ahead of in DRPM is Okafor and KAT, which is wow and WOW.
I got killed on here for saying Okafor is Kanter without the shooting and rebounding. But was told he would be a 30 PPG scorer who you can build around.
I think he'll thrive in the role thesixers are already using him (6th man) but that was a disappointing pick to say the least.