Thought it would be good to form a list of the top available OL and along with their position now, their age and 2016 salary.
Andrew Whitworth LT 35 CIN TBD $9,000,000 UFA -
Luke Joeckel G 25 JAC TBD $5,300,400 UFA -
T.J. Lang G 29 GB TBD $5,200,000 UFA -
Matt Kalil LT 27 MIN TBD $4,942,650 UFA -
Sebastian Vollmer RT 32 NE TBD $4,187,500 UFA -
Gosder Cherilus RT 32 TB TBD $3,500,000 UFA -
Andre Smith RT 29 MIN TBD $3,500,000 UFA -
Chance Warmack G 25 TEN TBD $3,041,663 UFA -
Ron Leary G 27 DAL TBD $2,553,000 UFA -
Mike Remmers RT 27 CAR TBD $2,553,000 UFA -
Chris Chester G 33 ATL TBD $2,350,000 UFA -
Byron Bell RT 27 TEN TBD $2,250,000 UFA -
Riley Reiff LT 28 DET TBD $1,998,425
Thoughts?
Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.
Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.
Titans declined his 5th year option back in May
Has Warmack been an impact player? Looks like he missed 2 games in 2015 and then 14 this past season. Would be dicey to sign him.
The Giants need to get at least one starter from the FA market, it's imperative. And then turn to the draft to get someone else. If they sign Leary and swing Pugh back to a tackle position than the interior could be Leary-Richburg-Flowers. With Pugh and someone from the draft as the starting Tackles. There's many ways they can go about this, but the bottom line is they need two new starters on that line next season.
Get him and Eli doesn't haven't to worry about his blindside. Flowers is a RG - protected from speed rushers.
Get him and Eli doesn't haven't to worry about his blindside. Flowers is a RG - protected from speed rushers.
Wouldn't mind this almost like Lomas Brown signing
Short window with Eli I mean.
Bengals
Both are young and relatively inexpensive.
It's easier to find guards than tackles in FA.
I don't want a Khalil, been a disappointment in Minn.,
also don't want a 36 y/o like a Whitworth, c'mon.
Unless? As of now, he's a total failure. Notice the narrative of the Giants has changed from "He's our LT" to "we'll evaluate and see if he needs to be moved". Sounds similar to what was said about Pugh before we moved him.
Think the best blocker on the market is RG Kevin Zeitler who you left off the list. He'd be a great fit here - 6'4" 315, turns 27 in March. Started since his rookie year. Runs the full tree as an OL - he can drive, he can pull, he can zone, he can pass pro. He can read defenses. He loves to play football and team is important to him. Organizational fit.
He'll have heavy interest and the Bengals probably can't afford him. He's the kind of guy I can see the Giants going after immediately.
Leary would be the main one I'd target.
All in all though, some good names on that list, and a chance to improve the line for sure.
What's the story with Joeckel? I know he hasn't lived up to his draft status, but maybe a change of scenery would do him good?
Whitworth is old but can still play. Might be worth a short deal as a stop gap until the younger guys they inevitably bring in are ready.
Whitworth -- Pugh -- Richburg -- draft pick -- Flowers (Flowers/rookie/Hart battle for RG/RT spots)
Re-sign Newhouse as depth. That's an improvement over '16.
Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.
Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.
I don't know about that, Jon. Kalil struggled mightily even he was healthy (rookie year aside). But yeah, Kalil seems the best of the bunch.
Ron Leary, Larry Warford and Chance Warmack are all upgrades over John Jerry
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unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.
Unless? As of now, he's a total failure. Notice the narrative of the Giants has changed from "He's our LT" to "we'll evaluate and see if he needs to be moved". Sounds similar to what was said about Pugh before we moved him.
Think the best blocker on the market is RG Kevin Zeitler who you left off the list. He'd be a great fit here - 6'4" 315, turns 27 in March. Started since his rookie year. Runs the full tree as an OL - he can drive, he can pull, he can zone, he can pass pro. He can read defenses. He loves to play football and team is important to him. Organizational fit.
He'll have heavy interest and the Bengals probably can't afford him. He's the kind of guy I can see the Giants going after immediately.
If I am the Giants, I would seriously consider signing Zietler and Leary. Move Pugh to LT and Flowers to RT.
If we have to let JPP walk to shore up our offensive line, I am doing that in a NY Minute. Zeitler is a natural RG and a very good one. Leary has proven to be a really good LG in Dallas. Our run game up the middle would improve immensely.
LT - Pugh
LG - Leary
C - Richburg
RG - Zeitler
RT - Flowers
I agree that he is not moving to guard, not sure he will be fine though. I didn't see progress this season, that's a bit
alarming for the 9th pick of the draft.
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for a 2 year deal is a great idea. Lines up perfectly with the short window we have.
Short window with Eli I mean.
Not just fitting our window with Eli, but the man is still a player keeping the young guys on the bench. Not only has he proven to protect the blindside, but he can be counted on for 16 games a season.
Not just fitting our window with Eli, but the man is still a player keeping the young guys on the bench. Not only has he proven to protect the blindside, but he can be counted on for 16 games a season.
I'm with ya, but he will be very pricey.
As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.
Why?
As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.
I don't agree with that. Kalil had a good rookie year (Pro Bowl) and then seemingly dropped off. He hasn't played well since.
Medicals.
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Before Kalil got injured, he was the best LT in the NFL for a brief period of time. His medicals are clearly the key.
As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.
I don't agree with that. Kalil had a good rookie year (Pro Bowl) and then seemingly dropped off. He hasn't played well since.
Maybe he has him confused with his brother, the center with the Panthers? I don't know how anybody make that statement about Matt Khalil.
When people were saying he was a 'big loss' for the Vikings this year, I for one started laughing.
"ESPN's Jeremy Fowler reports the Vikings are expected to retain LT Matt Kalil.
A perennial underachiever, Kalil has been a popular cut candidate all offseason, and those rumors picked up steam after the Vikings were linked with free agent G/T Kelechi Osemele. Osemele can play left tackle, but Minnesota is reportedly pursuing him as a guard. Kalil could still be asked to reduce the $11.096 million he is scheduled to earn in the final year of his deal, but it looks like he will stay in Minnesota at least one more season."
"Vikings LT Matt Kalil lost first-team snaps to Jeremiah Sirles at OTAs Wednesday.
Asked after if Kalil and Alex Boone are the expected starters on the left side, coach Mike Zimmer said, "I would assume Boone, probably." Kalil is making too much money in the final year of his rookie deal to ride the bench, but Zimmer obviously wanted to send a message. Kalil needs to re-find his rookie form if he hopes to earn a big payday next spring."
He started at LT for Flowers in Week 3 of the 2015 season. I thought he played well. He's also moved over to LT at times in recent years due to injuries and played well.
Medicals.
No doubt he's never been healthy, but he's also underachieved when he has been healthy
Link - ( New Window )
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Why?
Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.
The Browns have $110M in cap space.
Did John Jerry, Marshall Newhouse and Bobby Hart get cut? Flowers is 22 years old.. next year, after next season he will be 23. Lets give him a chance to finish his rookie deal. He had two years at left tackle and he will get 2 years at another OL spot before he it makes any sense to move on.
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The Browns have $110M in cap space.
That has to be a typo?
He'll be fine? Based on what? He has been awful for two seasons. A real difference maker and game changer kimd of awful. I would give him a shot at RT, but it's looking like G or nothing, as in major bust. His nickname should be Buster.
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In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
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Why?
Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.
They have $110 million in cap space. They can afford anything and then some.
Honestly , I dont expect see much change in the Oline.
$$ resources will be committed to WR JPP Hankins & K
Patience.
I like Wagner too. I think the Ravens discussed trying him out at LT at one point but decided RT was his best position. This was before they drafted Stanley.
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In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
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The Browns have $110M in cap space.
That has to be a typo?
No typo, remember the cap was increased by $30M this year. See OTC link...http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/
#1 Priority above all - get this done asap
Matt Kalil LT 27 MIN TBD $4,942,650
#2 Choice of either
Sebastian Vollmer RT 32 NE TBD $4,187,500
Byron Bell RT 27 TEN TBD $2,250,000
#3 Choice of either in case Flowers is a basket case at RG
Chance Warmack G 25 TEN TBD $3,041,663
Ron Leary G 27 DAL TBD $2,553,000
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In comment 13319856 Suburbanites said:
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In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
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The Browns have $110M in cap space.
That has to be a typo?
No typo, remember the cap was increased by $30M this year. See OTC link...http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/
That's an obscene amount
Honestly , I dont expect see much change in the Oline.
$$ resources will be committed to WR JPP Hankins & K
Your opinion isn't a fact. Hate to break it to you.
Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.
Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.
He's been a bust regardless of health.
Patience.
Just because he's 22 an progress isn't linear doesn't mean he'll be good.
The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.
The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.
I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.
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it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.
The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.
I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.
Footwork required is totally different. It might slow the game down for him, but if you believe his future is at tackle, you've got to figure out to drill him until it clicks. If you start moving him around, you're probably going to stall his growth, imv. Got to stick with him and drill him repeatedly.
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In comment 13319984 JonC said:
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it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.
The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.
I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.
Footwork required is totally different. It might slow the game down for him, but if you believe his future is at tackle, you've got to figure out to drill him until it clicks. If you start moving him around, you're probably going to stall his growth, imv. Got to stick with him and drill him repeatedly.
But wasn't Gallery in a similar situation or, was it a different problem with him skill-wise?
COMPETITION!
I'm no OL expert, but there's been numerous pro tackles who appear slower of foot to me and have been successful in the NFL.
Every indication from NY coaches leading up to the draft were he was very coachable, as they worked him out several times in person before the draft. Drill him until he drops.
But he in no way resembles the badass he was coming in here - I'll bet he's been humbled by repeated bad performances. the Giants have been supportive but getting destroyed takes its toll. he even said a couple weeks ago he needed to up his intensity.
We need Mr. Nasty back. I'd move him inside, let him brawl without constantly getting exposed in space. he won't like it at first, but he'll like playing well. when u see him getting blown by, and then bull-rushed, i think he's tied in knots - it's not like he can't handle the bull. inside, the DT's options are limited and he'll know what's coming. I think it could save his confidence and bring his edge back. Will be interesting - obviously supply and demand is a factor (there aren't many good OTs available anywhere).
Kalil had a good R season and then was dreadful when played thereafter, to the point he almost gut cut this offseason. Joeckel has been awful at 2 positions when he actually played.
Whitworth is too old, Vollmer and Smith are seriously breaking down
Some of those guys are not upgrades at all - Cherilus, Remmers, Bell
You could take a flyer on Warmack, whose play when healthy has been no better than Jerry. Reiff could be the vet swing T the Giants used to bring in - would Det re-sign him
How much of Leary's play can be attributed to playing between 2 All-Pros for his entire career.
Out of that list, I think Warmack could be had. Joeckel could be had, but is he really worth it
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In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
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Why?
Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.
Cleveland has $1 billion under the cap, so money is not their obstacle, unless Haslam needs it for defense attorneys to keep himself out of Federal ass-pounding prison. If they were going to cut bait with Joe Thomas they would have done it during this season to get some picks when he had maximum value to a team ... like the Giants. Now that the season is over, his value has decreased.
OK, bring back Flowers. The Giants could move Pugh to LT, Flowers to RT and insert Leary at either guard position for 2017.
That's a damn good start that helps 3 Oline positions IMO.
just saying
You get what you pay for. I get it. Yes Zeitler likely costs a ton but he's far and away better than most, if not all the alternatives mentioned in this thread. If the goal is to build a good to great OL, one which will allow the offense to utilize the entire playbook, you get Zeitler. If the goal is to build a slightly average OL, which limits what you can and cannot do offensively like this past season, then the mediocre at best players we've been discussing above come into play. I think it's safe to assume we'll be addressing the OL in FA this spring. Which avenue we pursue to upgrade will be fascinating to see unfold.
You mentioned Ronald Leary earlier. Assuming he's a cheaper alternative to Zeitler, he's a LG. Now I know Pugh isn't RG material. Is Leary?
I'm not saying they'd do it, but I wish they would. I think Pugh has enough chops to perform well there, and when they drafted him they said the same thing. In limited snaps he performed well, imo. Flowers can ride the pine until he shows enough consistency to beat out Pugh.
Bring in talent for the guard spots and RT.
Anyway, I'd like to see if this could work.
When the Giants drafted Pugh they said one of his strengths is his ability to play multiple positions on the line. Pugh already has experience playing LT in college and as a backup. Not sure how resigning Beatty impacted this, but he was Flowers' backup in 2015, and did fine (enough) at it. It is likely that with practice reps he would improve.
I'm not suggesting cutting Flowers or moving him. Just giving him some competition.
Remember that Diehl wasn't a "blue goose" LT, but we were able to be very successful with him holding down the position. Why not see what we're able to do with Pugh in the short term, while still continuing to develop Flowers for the future.
This year the org committed to giving Flowers the position sans competition, let's not do that again. He needs competition, and should be hearing that immediately so that he works his hardest and brings his A-game to camp.
Richburg had a bad year. It's a good question who looked worst at times, Flowers or Richburg. Eli's needs to be able to step forward, not being forced constantly to move left or right into the rush.
I'm not saying Richburg shouldn't start next year, but it should be an open competition between him and Jones. I think this would be a possible opening day lineup, if we get FA's on the line:
LT Pugh
LG Warmack
C Jones
RG Leary
RT Flowers/Newhouse
I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers
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a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.
I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers
I'm not sure what it would take to get Thomas. I'd rather not give up our 2nd round pick this year, but maybe they could offer a 2nd round pick in 2018? That could probably get it done, no?
Either way that line you propose would be outstanding. We could run right and left!
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In comment 13320651 Peppers said:
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a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.
I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers
I'm not sure what it would take to get Thomas. I'd rather not give up our 2nd round pick this year, but maybe they could offer a 2nd round pick in 2018? That could probably get it done, no?
Either way that line you propose would be outstanding. We could run right and left!
I would love it if that was our week 1 OL lineup. Unfortunately I think it's more pipe dream than anything else. Just because I don't see the FO going all in on Joe Thomas.
Collapsing the pocket right up the middle; we've seen Eli throw the ball down fast as a spike because a defender was a yard behind get the ball.
Maybe a solid C and a powerful EF at G could help give a running game that'd open up the pass game and protect Eli better/longer.
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a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.
I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers
I hear ya, but I really don't think Joe Thomas is going anywhere. Browns seemed pretty adamant about that. I think its also important for the culture of that team to keep a loyal player like that around. He doesn't want to be traded.
Staley is much more realistic to become available IMO. There will be a new GM and new coach. That team clearly needs to do some serious rebuilding. Stock piling picks and building towards the future would be a smart move for them.
I also don't think Leary goes anywhere. The odd man out on that line will be Doug Free IMO. If I'm them I keep Leary and move Collins out to RT. To me that's a more dominate line than this years line.
Sad and likely true, Jon.
To the poster who said Pugh would not upgrade the LT position: You're kidding yourself if you think Flowers plays a better LT than Pugh.
All the talk on Tackles
JohnF : 1/10/2017 5:59 pm : link : reply
and nothing on our Center?
Richburg had a bad year. It's a good question who looked worst at times, Flowers or Richburg. Eli's needs to be able to step forward, not being forced constantly to move left or right into the rush.
I'm not saying Richburg shouldn't start next year, but it should be an open competition between him and Jones. I think this would be a possible opening day lineup, if we get FA's on the line:
LT Pugh
LG Warmack
C Jones
RG Leary
RT Flowers/Newhouse
''
Basicaly the same thing I suggested last January, or last Spring, which was roundly rejected.