Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

UFA Offensive Line 2017

ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 9:38 am
Thought it would be good to form a list of the top available OL and along with their position now, their age and 2016 salary.

Andrew Whitworth LT 35 CIN TBD $9,000,000 UFA -
Luke Joeckel G 25 JAC TBD $5,300,400 UFA -
T.J. Lang G 29 GB TBD $5,200,000 UFA -
Matt Kalil LT 27 MIN TBD $4,942,650 UFA -
Sebastian Vollmer RT 32 NE TBD $4,187,500 UFA -
Gosder Cherilus RT 32 TB TBD $3,500,000 UFA -
Andre Smith RT 29 MIN TBD $3,500,000 UFA -
Chance Warmack G 25 TEN TBD $3,041,663 UFA -
Ron Leary G 27 DAL TBD $2,553,000 UFA -
Mike Remmers RT 27 CAR TBD $2,553,000 UFA -
Chris Chester G 33 ATL TBD $2,350,000 UFA -
Byron Bell RT 27 TEN TBD $2,250,000 UFA -
Riley Reiff LT 28 DET TBD $1,998,425

Thoughts?
Stay young. Sign end of rookie contract players if possible.  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2017 9:39 am : link
Warmack
Kalil,  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2017 9:40 am : link
though what's his injury history?
I'd try to medically dig into Kalil  
JonC : 1/10/2017 9:40 am : link
He's the answer at LT if health arrow is pointing up.

Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.

Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.
Chance Warmack as an option at RG  
jlukes : 1/10/2017 9:41 am : link
is definitely intriguing. Had hand surgery this year that caused him to go on IR. Before this year he had only missed 2 games with a sprained knee (2015)

Titans declined his 5th year option back in May
RE: Stay young. Sign end of rookie contract players if possible.  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 9:41 am : link
In comment 13319561 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Warmack

Has Warmack been an impact player? Looks like he missed 2 games in 2015 and then 14 this past season. Would be dicey to sign him.
Leary would be a good get, but if moving Flowers means  
jcn56 : 1/10/2017 9:41 am : link
RG and not RT, that goes out the window.
And Warmack's 5th year option, which the Titans declined, would  
jlukes : 1/10/2017 9:43 am : link
have been for almost $12million dollars - that is a lot for a guard to it makes sense as to why they declined it.
Flowers isn't moving to G  
JonC : 1/10/2017 9:44 am : link
unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.
I think Warmack is considered a bust  
okayrene : 1/10/2017 9:44 am : link
within Titans' fans & media conversations
Looks like Kalil  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 9:45 am : link
had a torn labrum in hip and had surgery to repair. Seems like he never missed a snap before that. Would be intrigued with him at LT.
The Problem Is  
Suburbanites : 1/10/2017 10:08 am : link
With the cap being increased across the board most teams are in good cap space shaped. The one exception is the Cowboys who are already close to $6M over. So given that they already have Collins to play guard Leary can probably be had at the right price but there will be plenty of competition. The Lions are around $40M under the cap, however Lucas stepped in and did a nice job replacing Reiff so that too might be a possibility.

The Giants need to get at least one starter from the FA market, it's imperative. And then turn to the draft to get someone else. If they sign Leary and swing Pugh back to a tackle position than the interior could be Leary-Richburg-Flowers. With Pugh and someone from the draft as the starting Tackles. There's many ways they can go about this, but the bottom line is they need two new starters on that line next season.

Depending on cost, Kalil would be my first choice.  
Section331 : 1/10/2017 10:11 am : link
A very good player, still young, and plugs a big hole.
Warford  
Reb8thVA : 1/10/2017 10:14 am : link
Leary, or Warmack at RG but I'm not really enthused by any of those options
Reading that Kalil  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:16 am : link
has some knee issues that don't require surgery or anything, but it's been documented while he's been at Minnesota. Red flag?
I've been a proponent of signing Whitworth for 2-3 year contract.  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2017 10:27 am : link
The man is a 2nd team All Pro and Pro Bowl tackle that has played 16 games seasons for years. He's older, but he's been keeping the young guys on the bench because they can't match his skillset. He was given a 1 year contract this past year because their young guys still haven't progressed to unseating the man.

Get him and Eli doesn't haven't to worry about his blindside. Flowers is a RG - protected from speed rushers.
if you move Flowers to RG, Kalil is the obvious choice.  
Victor in CT : 1/10/2017 10:31 am : link
If he's healthy of course.
What's the deal with  
cokeduplt : 1/10/2017 10:36 am : link
Luke Joekll? Complete bust? Is Reiff worth a shot?
RE: I've been a proponent of signing Whitworth for 2-3 year contract.  
cokeduplt : 1/10/2017 10:38 am : link
In comment 13319664 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
The man is a 2nd team All Pro and Pro Bowl tackle that has played 16 games seasons for years. He's older, but he's been keeping the young guys on the bench because they can't match his skillset. He was given a 1 year contract this past year because their young guys still haven't progressed to unseating the man.

Get him and Eli doesn't haven't to worry about his blindside. Flowers is a RG - protected from speed rushers.



Wouldn't mind this almost like Lomas Brown signing
Joeckel  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:44 am : link
has mostly been a bust. He's played 39 games in 4 seasons and it doesn't appear that he's been that effective when healthy.
Whitworth  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:47 am : link
for a 2 year deal is a great idea. Lines up perfectly with the short window we have.
RE: Whitworth  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:47 am : link
In comment 13319710 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
for a 2 year deal is a great idea. Lines up perfectly with the short window we have.

Short window with Eli I mean.
Larry Warford and the guy below at RG  
Carson53 : 1/10/2017 10:49 am : link
Kevin Zeitler RG
Bengals

Both are young and relatively inexpensive.
It's easier to find guards than tackles in FA.

I don't want a Khalil, been a disappointment in Minn.,
also don't want a 36 y/o like a Whitworth, c'mon.
RE: Flowers isn't moving to G  
area junc : 1/10/2017 10:49 am : link
In comment 13319572 JonC said:
Quote:
unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.


Unless? As of now, he's a total failure. Notice the narrative of the Giants has changed from "He's our LT" to "we'll evaluate and see if he needs to be moved". Sounds similar to what was said about Pugh before we moved him.

Think the best blocker on the market is RG Kevin Zeitler who you left off the list. He'd be a great fit here - 6'4" 315, turns 27 in March. Started since his rookie year. Runs the full tree as an OL - he can drive, he can pull, he can zone, he can pass pro. He can read defenses. He loves to play football and team is important to him. Organizational fit.

He'll have heavy interest and the Bengals probably can't afford him. He's the kind of guy I can see the Giants going after immediately.
Kalil would be a dream  
Sonic Youth : 1/10/2017 10:52 am : link
But I feel as though he'd cost a ton. If he stops them from resigning JPP, Hankins, or Pugh, I'm not sure he's worth it.

Leary would be the main one I'd target.

All in all though, some good names on that list, and a chance to improve the line for sure.

What's the story with Joeckel? I know he hasn't lived up to his draft status, but maybe a change of scenery would do him good?
Most of them won't hit the market  
WillVAB : 1/10/2017 10:52 am : link
Whitworth, Vollmer, and Leary probably will. Is Leary worth a mega deal? Because that's what you're going to have to pay.

Whitworth is old but can still play. Might be worth a short deal as a stop gap until the younger guys they inevitably bring in are ready.

Whitworth -- Pugh -- Richburg -- draft pick -- Flowers (Flowers/rookie/Hart battle for RG/RT spots)

Re-sign Newhouse as depth. That's an improvement over '16.

RE: I'd try to medically dig into Kalil  
Anakim : 1/10/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13319563 JonC said:
Quote:
He's the answer at LT if health arrow is pointing up.

Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.

Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.



I don't know about that, Jon. Kalil struggled mightily even he was healthy (rookie year aside). But yeah, Kalil seems the best of the bunch.


Ron Leary, Larry Warford and Chance Warmack are all upgrades over John Jerry
RE: RE: Flowers isn't moving to G  
EddieNYG : 1/10/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13319721 area junc said:
Quote:
In comment 13319572 JonC said:


Quote:


unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.



Unless? As of now, he's a total failure. Notice the narrative of the Giants has changed from "He's our LT" to "we'll evaluate and see if he needs to be moved". Sounds similar to what was said about Pugh before we moved him.

Think the best blocker on the market is RG Kevin Zeitler who you left off the list. He'd be a great fit here - 6'4" 315, turns 27 in March. Started since his rookie year. Runs the full tree as an OL - he can drive, he can pull, he can zone, he can pass pro. He can read defenses. He loves to play football and team is important to him. Organizational fit.

He'll have heavy interest and the Bengals probably can't afford him. He's the kind of guy I can see the Giants going after immediately.


If I am the Giants, I would seriously consider signing Zietler and Leary. Move Pugh to LT and Flowers to RT.

If we have to let JPP walk to shore up our offensive line, I am doing that in a NY Minute. Zeitler is a natural RG and a very good one. Leary has proven to be a really good LG in Dallas. Our run game up the middle would improve immensely.

LT - Pugh
LG - Leary
C - Richburg
RG - Zeitler
RT - Flowers
Flowers  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:56 am : link
will certainly be looked at for RT before guard. Gotta get the most out of his skillset and that should be at RT before G.
RE: Flowers isn't moving to G  
Carson53 : 1/10/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13319572 JonC said:
Quote:
unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.
.

I agree that he is not moving to guard, not sure he will be fine though. I didn't see progress this season, that's a bit
alarming for the 9th pick of the draft.
RE: RE: Whitworth  
Diver_Down : 1/10/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13319713 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 13319710 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


for a 2 year deal is a great idea. Lines up perfectly with the short window we have.


Short window with Eli I mean.


Not just fitting our window with Eli, but the man is still a player keeping the young guys on the bench. Not only has he proven to protect the blindside, but he can be counted on for 16 games a season.
RE: RE: RE: Whitworth  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13319740 Diver_Down said:
Quote:



Not just fitting our window with Eli, but the man is still a player keeping the young guys on the bench. Not only has he proven to protect the blindside, but he can be counted on for 16 games a season.

I'm with ya, but he will be very pricey.
Move Flowers to RG  
sjnyfan : 1/10/2017 10:59 am : link
Sign Whitworth and Vollmer to 2 year deals. The line and offense improves immensely
Has Pugh  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 11:00 am : link
ever played LT for us? Not sure moving him there with us needing to fully take advantage of Eli's next season or two would be the right move. Keeping Pugh at LG where he has excelled I think is the right choice. He's basically a pro bowl guard.
Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
est1986 : 1/10/2017 11:02 am : link
.
Anak  
JonC : 1/10/2017 11:04 am : link
Before Kalil got injured, he was the best LT in the NFL for a brief period of time. His medicals are clearly the key.

As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.
RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Giants2012 : 1/10/2017 11:05 am : link
In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
Quote:
.


Why?
Volmer  
Carson53 : 1/10/2017 11:07 am : link
was on IR all year, just saying.
RE: Anak  
Anakim : 1/10/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13319757 JonC said:
Quote:
Before Kalil got injured, he was the best LT in the NFL for a brief period of time. His medicals are clearly the key.

As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.


I don't agree with that. Kalil had a good rookie year (Pro Bowl) and then seemingly dropped off. He hasn't played well since.
It seems that  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 11:10 am : link
Kalil isn't regarded around the league as "great" but he passes the eye test every time I watched the Vikings. He's always good.
Constant injuries  
JonC : 1/10/2017 11:10 am : link
knee mostly, and hip.

Medicals.
RE: RE: Anak  
Carson53 : 1/10/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13319776 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13319757 JonC said:


Quote:


Before Kalil got injured, he was the best LT in the NFL for a brief period of time. His medicals are clearly the key.

As for Flower, I'm not going to wring hands over him. If they move to OG, it's temporary, and unlikely they do anything they can retard's his progress long-term at tackle.



I don't agree with that. Kalil had a good rookie year (Pro Bowl) and then seemingly dropped off. He hasn't played well since.
.

Maybe he has him confused with his brother, the center with the Panthers? I don't know how anybody make that statement about Matt Khalil.
When people were saying he was a 'big loss' for the Vikings this year, I for one started laughing.
Just looking at Rotoworld:  
Anakim : 1/10/2017 11:14 am : link
"That hardly seems worth it after Kalil graded out as Pro Football Focus' fourth-worst offensive tackle in 2014"

"ESPN's Jeremy Fowler reports the Vikings are expected to retain LT Matt Kalil.
A perennial underachiever, Kalil has been a popular cut candidate all offseason, and those rumors picked up steam after the Vikings were linked with free agent G/T Kelechi Osemele. Osemele can play left tackle, but Minnesota is reportedly pursuing him as a guard. Kalil could still be asked to reduce the $11.096 million he is scheduled to earn in the final year of his deal, but it looks like he will stay in Minnesota at least one more season."


"Vikings LT Matt Kalil lost first-team snaps to Jeremiah Sirles at OTAs Wednesday.
Asked after if Kalil and Alex Boone are the expected starters on the left side, coach Mike Zimmer said, "I would assume Boone, probably." Kalil is making too much money in the final year of his rookie deal to ride the bench, but Zimmer obviously wanted to send a message. Kalil needs to re-find his rookie form if he hopes to earn a big payday next spring."
RE: Has Pugh  
EddieNYG : 1/10/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13319747 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
ever played LT for us? Not sure moving him there with us needing to fully take advantage of Eli's next season or two would be the right move. Keeping Pugh at LG where he has excelled I think is the right choice. He's basically a pro bowl guard.


He started at LT for Flowers in Week 3 of the 2015 season. I thought he played well. He's also moved over to LT at times in recent years due to injuries and played well.
I'd  
AcidTest : 1/10/2017 11:14 am : link
go with Whitworth or Reiff. Too many medical questions with Kalil, and he's going to want a ton.
RE: Constant injuries  
Anakim : 1/10/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13319781 JonC said:
Quote:
knee mostly, and hip.

Medicals.


No doubt he's never been healthy, but he's also underachieved when he has been healthy
probably too expensive...  
Mike in St. Louis : 1/10/2017 11:24 am : link
but I'd love the Giants to take a look at Rick Wagner, who the Ravens may be unable to re-sign...
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
est1986 : 1/10/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13319766 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



Why?


Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.
All these guys  
Marty866b : 1/10/2017 11:33 am : link
Are better then Flowers. Debatable if he can even play in the league. At left tackle we know he stinks. Anywhere else is a huge question mark. If he wasn't picked at #9 you can make a strong case he would have been cut.
RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Suburbanites : 1/10/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13319754 est1986 said:
Quote:
.


The Browns have $110M in cap space.
RE: All these guys  
est1986 : 1/10/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13319844 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Are better then Flowers. Debatable if he can even play in the league. At left tackle we know he stinks. Anywhere else is a huge question mark. If he wasn't picked at #9 you can make a strong case he would have been cut.


Did John Jerry, Marshall Newhouse and Bobby Hart get cut? Flowers is 22 years old.. next year, after next season he will be 23. Lets give him a chance to finish his rookie deal. He had two years at left tackle and he will get 2 years at another OL spot before he it makes any sense to move on.
+ They have been fielding offers for him for 2 years now  
est1986 : 1/10/2017 11:50 am : link
.
RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13319856 Suburbanites said:
Quote:
In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



The Browns have $110M in cap space.


That has to be a typo?
RE: Flowers isn't moving to G  
Boy Cord : 1/10/2017 11:53 am : link
In comment 13319572 JonC said:
Quote:
unless he's a total failure at T. He'll be fine.


He'll be fine? Based on what? He has been awful for two seasons. A real difference maker and game changer kimd of awful. I would give him a shot at RT, but it's looking like G or nothing, as in major bust. His nickname should be Buster.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Giants2012 : 1/10/2017 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13319827 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13319766 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



Why?



Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.


They have $110 million in cap space. They can afford anything and then some.
lol guys hate to  
Rory : 1/10/2017 12:01 pm : link
break it to you but based on Flowers age size potential combo and was drafted by Reese in the 1st round , hes staying at LT

Honestly , I dont expect see much change in the Oline.

$$ resources will be committed to WR JPP Hankins & K
BC  
JonC : 1/10/2017 12:03 pm : link
Based on he's 22 years old and progress at this level isn't always linear. Coaches will get him figured out and how to best utilize him, and I highly doubt it will be at guard.

Patience.
RE: probably too expensive...  
Pete in MD : 1/10/2017 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13319816 Mike in St. Louis said:
Quote:
but I'd love the Giants to take a look at Rick Wagner, who the Ravens may be unable to re-sign... Link - ( New Window )

I like Wagner too. I think the Ravens discussed trying him out at LT at one point but decided RT was his best position. This was before they drafted Stanley.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Suburbanites : 1/10/2017 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13319876 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13319856 Suburbanites said:


Quote:


In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



The Browns have $110M in cap space.



That has to be a typo?


No typo, remember the cap was increased by $30M this year. See OTC link...http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/
A FA guard to replace Jerry  
BillT : 1/10/2017 12:14 pm : link
Leary or Wolmack? Don't mind bringing Jerry back as a backup but we need a RG who can run block.
Not many if any our FA's are coming back  
ArcadeSlumlord : 1/10/2017 12:18 pm : link
I will eat crow if the big price tag ones do. With that said we must sign:

#1 Priority above all - get this done asap
Matt Kalil LT 27 MIN TBD $4,942,650

#2 Choice of either
Sebastian Vollmer RT 32 NE TBD $4,187,500
Byron Bell RT 27 TEN TBD $2,250,000

#3 Choice of either in case Flowers is a basket case at RG
Chance Warmack G 25 TEN TBD $3,041,663
Ron Leary G 27 DAL TBD $2,553,000
RE: RE: RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2017 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13319936 Suburbanites said:
Quote:
In comment 13319876 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13319856 Suburbanites said:


Quote:


In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



The Browns have $110M in cap space.



That has to be a typo?



No typo, remember the cap was increased by $30M this year. See OTC link...http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/


That's an obscene amount
RE: lol guys hate to  
Giants2012 : 1/10/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13319906 Rory said:
Quote:
break it to you but based on Flowers age size potential combo and was drafted by Reese in the 1st round , hes staying at LT

Honestly , I dont expect see much change in the Oline.

$$ resources will be committed to WR JPP Hankins & K


Your opinion isn't a fact. Hate to break it to you.
RE: I'd try to medically dig into Kalil  
chris r : 1/10/2017 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13319563 JonC said:
Quote:
He's the answer at LT if health arrow is pointing up.

Leary at RG, strengthens us and weakens Dallas.

Warmack is a prospect the Giants reportedly liked in the draft.


He's been a bust regardless of health.
RE: BC  
chris r : 1/10/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13319913 JonC said:
Quote:
Based on he's 22 years old and progress at this level isn't always linear. Coaches will get him figured out and how to best utilize him, and I highly doubt it will be at guard.

Patience.


Just because he's 22 an progress isn't linear doesn't mean he'll be good.
Nor does it mean  
JonC : 1/10/2017 12:32 pm : link
it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.

The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.

RE: Nor does it mean  
Reb8thVA : 1/10/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13319984 JonC said:
Quote:
it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.

The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.


I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.
RE: RE: Nor does it mean  
JonC : 1/10/2017 1:21 pm : link
In comment 13320054 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 13319984 JonC said:


Quote:


it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.

The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.




I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.


Footwork required is totally different. It might slow the game down for him, but if you believe his future is at tackle, you've got to figure out to drill him until it clicks. If you start moving him around, you're probably going to stall his growth, imv. Got to stick with him and drill him repeatedly.

RE: RE: RE: Nor does it mean  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2017 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13320094 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13320054 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


In comment 13319984 JonC said:


Quote:


it's time to leap off the nearest bridge.

The team researched the talent and the character and chose to invest in him, they're not going to pull the plug anytime soon.




I do wonder if they move Flowers temporarily to RG just to rebuild his confidence and to slow things down for him. I've never played OL but it seems to me that if technique is the problem than a position switch that slows down the game for him may allow him to focus better.



Footwork required is totally different. It might slow the game down for him, but if you believe his future is at tackle, you've got to figure out to drill him until it clicks. If you start moving him around, you're probably going to stall his growth, imv. Got to stick with him and drill him repeatedly.


But wasn't Gallery in a similar situation or, was it a different problem with him skill-wise?
Reif, Smith to play each T position and either  
andrew_nyg : 1/10/2017 1:34 pm : link
Warmack or Leary for one of the G slots.

COMPETITION!
I don't think we're at the Gallery point yet  
JonC : 1/10/2017 1:40 pm : link
I see lateral movement and good enough feet from EF to play tackle, imo. His issues are keeping his feet moving so he doesn't start reaching when moving laterally. When he starts to lose the foot race I think he panics. When he reaches he tends to drop his head and start grabbing. This is technique that must be corrected so he moves the feet, uses proper hand placement and punch, and can perry his opponents moves. See Bulaga vs NYG ...

I'm no OL expert, but there's been numerous pro tackles who appear slower of foot to me and have been successful in the NFL.

Every indication from NY coaches leading up to the draft were he was very coachable, as they worked him out several times in person before the draft. Drill him until he drops.
Signing Whitworth to a two year deal makes the most sense. Why?  
Torrag : 1/10/2017 1:47 pm : link
Because it gives the Giants both the immediate upgrade at LT they need plus a window to put Flowers at RT and see if they can salvage that draft pick without panicking and moving him to OG. You can do that later if necessary.
Lost confidence  
area junc : 1/10/2017 1:51 pm : link
unfortunately he's not going to become a technician overnight. asking him to stop doing the things he's been doing his entire career at Miami (who has a pretty damn good OL Coach), and now for 2 years here (under 2 pretty good OL Coaches), may be pounding your head into the wall too. I am not saying anyone wanting him at OT is definitely wrong either.

But he in no way resembles the badass he was coming in here - I'll bet he's been humbled by repeated bad performances. the Giants have been supportive but getting destroyed takes its toll. he even said a couple weeks ago he needed to up his intensity.

We need Mr. Nasty back. I'd move him inside, let him brawl without constantly getting exposed in space. he won't like it at first, but he'll like playing well. when u see him getting blown by, and then bull-rushed, i think he's tied in knots - it's not like he can't handle the bull. inside, the DT's options are limited and he'll know what's coming. I think it could save his confidence and bring his edge back. Will be interesting - obviously supply and demand is a factor (there aren't many good OTs available anywhere).
Pugh is not a LT  
shelovesnycsports : 1/10/2017 2:01 pm : link
Flowers at RT? He will get run around again no thanks
If somehow we got  
louied7535 : 1/10/2017 2:47 pm : link
Khalil and warmack that would be great in my opinion. Not sure if we could afford both if we resigned jpp and Hankins
List  
stretch234 : 1/10/2017 3:24 pm : link
That FA list is really not good.

Kalil had a good R season and then was dreadful when played thereafter, to the point he almost gut cut this offseason. Joeckel has been awful at 2 positions when he actually played.

Whitworth is too old, Vollmer and Smith are seriously breaking down

Some of those guys are not upgrades at all - Cherilus, Remmers, Bell

You could take a flyer on Warmack, whose play when healthy has been no better than Jerry. Reiff could be the vet swing T the Giants used to bring in - would Det re-sign him

How much of Leary's play can be attributed to playing between 2 All-Pros for his entire career.

Out of that list, I think Warmack could be had. Joeckel could be had, but is he really worth it



Kevin Zeitler is the guy  
The_Boss : 1/10/2017 3:36 pm : link
Who should be our (and quite a few other teams') top target. Yes he's not a Tackle. How many elite level OT's really make it to FA? Not many. JR is going to have to figure that out. Being GM isn't an easy job. Zeitler is an animal. Plug him at RG and suddenly we have a strong enough interior.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Thomas is getting cut -- book it  
Boy Cord : 1/10/2017 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13319827 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13319766 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13319754 est1986 said:


Quote:


.



Why?



Browns save 10 million this year and 10 million next year with no dead money if they cut him. It will happen that Cleveland team needs a whole new roster they can't afford to pay 10 million to a LT without having a QB, WR or RB or anything as a matter of fact. I have a strong hunch he gets cut.


Cleveland has $1 billion under the cap, so money is not their obstacle, unless Haslam needs it for defense attorneys to keep himself out of Federal ass-pounding prison. If they were going to cut bait with Joe Thomas they would have done it during this season to get some picks when he had maximum value to a team ... like the Giants. Now that the season is over, his value has decreased.
The Giants will not admit  
mrvax : 1/10/2017 4:17 pm : link
Flowers at LT has been a failure. They could spin a story to move him to RT if necessary though. Now forget Flowers for a minute. Leary just stands out as an upgrade at guard.

OK, bring back Flowers. The Giants could move Pugh to LT, Flowers to RT and insert Leary at either guard position for 2017.

That's a damn good start that helps 3 Oline positions IMO.
Zeitler  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 4:19 pm : link
would be fantastic but he'll cost 10M+ I imagine. He'll want to be paid as the best guard in football considering he's 26, and Osemele makes 11.7.
Reilly Reiff  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/10/2017 4:22 pm : link
was the 23rd Pick in 2012

just saying
Moving Pugh to LT  
ryanmkeane : 1/10/2017 4:22 pm : link
means that LG is a hole, and Pugh is a very good LG. I can't see Pugh moving from that spot. How does moving him to LT improve the OL? It only means our LG is worse.
Pugh very likely stays at LG  
JonC : 1/10/2017 4:24 pm : link
and unless Reese somehow pries a LT from another team, or scores a trade up in the draft, Flowers likely remains the LT.
RE: Zeitler  
The_Boss : 1/10/2017 4:42 pm : link
In comment 13320433 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
would be fantastic but he'll cost 10M+ I imagine. He'll want to be paid as the best guard in football considering he's 26, and Osemele makes 11.7.


You get what you pay for. I get it. Yes Zeitler likely costs a ton but he's far and away better than most, if not all the alternatives mentioned in this thread. If the goal is to build a good to great OL, one which will allow the offense to utilize the entire playbook, you get Zeitler. If the goal is to build a slightly average OL, which limits what you can and cannot do offensively like this past season, then the mediocre at best players we've been discussing above come into play. I think it's safe to assume we'll be addressing the OL in FA this spring. Which avenue we pursue to upgrade will be fascinating to see unfold.
RE: Pugh very likely stays at LG  
The_Boss : 1/10/2017 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13320442 JonC said:
Quote:
and unless Reese somehow pries a LT from another team, or scores a trade up in the draft, Flowers likely remains the LT.


You mentioned Ronald Leary earlier. Assuming he's a cheaper alternative to Zeitler, he's a LG. Now I know Pugh isn't RG material. Is Leary?
I also would like to see Pugh at LT...  
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2017 5:11 pm : link
I know the Giants are unlikely to give up on Flowers. Opening the competition up between Flowers and Pugh doesn't have to mean giving up on a first round draft pick though.

I'm not saying they'd do it, but I wish they would. I think Pugh has enough chops to perform well there, and when they drafted him they said the same thing. In limited snaps he performed well, imo. Flowers can ride the pine until he shows enough consistency to beat out Pugh.

Bring in talent for the guard spots and RT.

Anyway, I'd like to see if this could work.
I'm Not Sure I Want to Move Pugh To Tackle  
Suburbanites : 1/10/2017 5:20 pm : link
He's already been moved from Tackle to Guard and it's been successful. I don't like the idea of moving the guy who's playing his position at a top level because someone else isn't succeeding at their position. I get how the Giants may not have a choice if the FA market and draft don't break the right way.
RE: I'm Not Sure I Want to Move Pugh To Tackle  
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2017 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13320555 Suburbanites said:
Quote:
He's already been moved from Tackle to Guard and it's been successful. I don't like the idea of moving the guy who's playing his position at a top level because someone else isn't succeeding at their position. I get how the Giants may not have a choice if the FA market and draft don't break the right way.


When the Giants drafted Pugh they said one of his strengths is his ability to play multiple positions on the line. Pugh already has experience playing LT in college and as a backup. Not sure how resigning Beatty impacted this, but he was Flowers' backup in 2015, and did fine (enough) at it. It is likely that with practice reps he would improve.

I'm not suggesting cutting Flowers or moving him. Just giving him some competition.

Remember that Diehl wasn't a "blue goose" LT, but we were able to be very successful with him holding down the position. Why not see what we're able to do with Pugh in the short term, while still continuing to develop Flowers for the future.

This year the org committed to giving Flowers the position sans competition, let's not do that again. He needs competition, and should be hearing that immediately so that he works his hardest and brings his A-game to camp.
All the talk on Tackles  
JohnF : 1/10/2017 5:59 pm : link
and nothing on our Center?

Richburg had a bad year. It's a good question who looked worst at times, Flowers or Richburg. Eli's needs to be able to step forward, not being forced constantly to move left or right into the rush.

I'm not saying Richburg shouldn't start next year, but it should be an open competition between him and Jones. I think this would be a possible opening day lineup, if we get FA's on the line:

LT Pugh
LG Warmack
C Jones
RG Leary
RT Flowers/Newhouse
We have to hope  
Peppers : 1/10/2017 7:02 pm : link
a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.

I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.
RE: We have to hope  
The_Boss : 1/10/2017 7:15 pm : link
In comment 13320651 Peppers said:
Quote:
a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.

I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.


I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers
RE: RE: We have to hope  
EddieNYG : 1/10/2017 7:43 pm : link
In comment 13320658 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13320651 Peppers said:


Quote:


a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.

I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.



I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers


I'm not sure what it would take to get Thomas. I'd rather not give up our 2nd round pick this year, but maybe they could offer a 2nd round pick in 2018? That could probably get it done, no?

Either way that line you propose would be outstanding. We could run right and left!
RE: RE: RE: We have to hope  
The_Boss : 1/10/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13320676 EddieNYG said:
Quote:
In comment 13320658 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 13320651 Peppers said:


Quote:


a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.

I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.



I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers



I'm not sure what it would take to get Thomas. I'd rather not give up our 2nd round pick this year, but maybe they could offer a 2nd round pick in 2018? That could probably get it done, no?

Either way that line you propose would be outstanding. We could run right and left!


I would love it if that was our week 1 OL lineup. Unfortunately I think it's more pipe dream than anything else. Just because I don't see the FO going all in on Joe Thomas.
JohnF  
old man : 1/10/2017 9:14 pm : link
I've been very concerned over LT, but I too have become concerned over C. Is it all scheme, coach, an almost OL group collapse, but WR has fallen so far I wonder if he doesn't have a major muscular issue.
Collapsing the pocket right up the middle; we've seen Eli throw the ball down fast as a spike because a defender was a yard behind get the ball.
Maybe a solid C and a powerful EF at G could help give a running game that'd open up the pass game and protect Eli better/longer.
RE: RE: We have to hope  
Peppers : 1/10/2017 11:25 pm : link
In comment 13320658 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13320651 Peppers said:


Quote:


a capable starting LT becomes available through trade. I think Flowers will grow and become a probowl player but I think that's at RT. Its not uncommon to see LTs struggle early on. There's still hope.

I'd see what the 49ers want for Joe Staley but I definitely would draft a LT early.



I'd rather surrender a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or combination of 2 for Joe Thomas. And sign Leary.
Then roll with:
Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Leary-Flowers


I hear ya, but I really don't think Joe Thomas is going anywhere. Browns seemed pretty adamant about that. I think its also important for the culture of that team to keep a loyal player like that around. He doesn't want to be traded.

Staley is much more realistic to become available IMO. There will be a new GM and new coach. That team clearly needs to do some serious rebuilding. Stock piling picks and building towards the future would be a smart move for them.

I also don't think Leary goes anywhere. The odd man out on that line will be Doug Free IMO. If I'm them I keep Leary and move Collins out to RT. To me that's a more dominate line than this years line.


not gonna happen  
SHO'NUFF : 1/11/2017 1:22 am : link
Reese loves him some Jerry & Newhouse.
RE: Pugh very likely stays at LG  
mrvax : 1/11/2017 9:01 am : link
In comment 13320442 JonC said:
Quote:
and unless Reese somehow pries a LT from another team, or scores a trade up in the draft, Flowers likely remains the LT.



Sad and likely true, Jon.

To the poster who said Pugh would not upgrade the LT position: You're kidding yourself if you think Flowers plays a better LT than Pugh.
This is a good comment:  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2017 10:37 am : link
''

All the talk on Tackles
JohnF : 1/10/2017 5:59 pm : link : reply

and nothing on our Center?

Richburg had a bad year. It's a good question who looked worst at times, Flowers or Richburg. Eli's needs to be able to step forward, not being forced constantly to move left or right into the rush.

I'm not saying Richburg shouldn't start next year, but it should be an open competition between him and Jones. I think this would be a possible opening day lineup, if we get FA's on the line:

LT Pugh
LG Warmack
C Jones
RG Leary
RT Flowers/Newhouse

''

Basicaly the same thing I suggested last January, or last Spring, which was roundly rejected.

Back to the Corner