Vereen: Move on, or keep?

until if and when the Giants get pressed for cap space.

they save 3.75M by cutting him, but IMO unless they need that space, keep him, and hope he's healthy, his absence contributed to the lackluster offense this year IMO.

and punt Rainey? Also, do you keep Jennings another year? If they draft a power back do you need Vereen when you have Perkins?

the offense missed him. Vereen matched up on a LB would have helped with some of the issues vs. Cover 2 and Man 2

Veeren gets one more year..

could've help extend drives Sunday. As other said if you need the money for a big time player like JPP or Hank then move on, but I'd prefer to keep his services. One year left on his contract.

very solid player when healthy.
Great veteran to have.....can't be a great complimentary RB.

For a part-time player, that's a problem. He's not the first problem, but I'd look to find someone more reliable.

If he had a history of being healthy he would be worth the money. But with his injury history, need to move on.

In comment 13319838 Section331 said:

Quote:

For a part-time player, that's a problem. He's not the first problem, but I'd look to find someone more reliable.

+1

Vereen was the 2nd or third best offensive skill player on the team this year. The Giants struggled on offense and you want them to cut one of their better players to save just under 4 million?

It doenst make any sense. Jennings is gone. If Vereen is gone too you need to fill two running back positions. Keep Vereen as your third down back and get another back to bang between the tackles with Perkins.

This team needs to add playmakers not lose them.

more predictable

In comment 13319822 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

until if and when the Giants get pressed for cap space. they save 3.75M by cutting him, but IMO unless they need that space, keep him, and hope he's healthy, his absence contributed to the lackluster offense this year IMO.

Good post.

In comment 13319849 Old Dirty Beckham said:

Quote:

Vereen was the 2nd or third best offensive skill player on the team this year. The Giants struggled on offense and you want them to cut one of their better players to save just under 4 million?

The problem isn't Vereen's ability, or his salary, but his reliability. If he had a history of playing full seasons, then we'd be crazy to let him go, but that isn't the case here.

he is not to the Giants what he was to the Patriots...the stats are about the same.....but man, he and Eli just did not click on a lot of short passes, because, for one, Eli is not good at throwing that pass, and because the way defenses played the Giants, Vereen had a lot of passes caught, that were short of first downs.....one of the Giant bugaboos....passes completed on third down, that did not result in first downs....

I watched Vereen play for the Pats and Giants, and the results were much different....call it scheme or Brady throws a better short ball, the results were not the same...

If we are pinched for cap space, and need the 3.75M for an OLman, then use it...

cut Jennings and try and sign or draft a power back. Vereen offers blocking and receiving skills and is only 27.

3.75 million in savings isn't a ton and for as "unnatural" a runner he is, he does have a career 4.3 ypc

I think he will help the passing game a lot. Even if it's obvious the Giants are passing if he's in the game, he can run a full route tree and can line up at RB or WR. That allows the offense to run a wide array of formations which was an issue this year.

.

In comment 13319860 Doomster said:

Quote:

he is not to the Giants what he was to the Patriots...the stats are about the same.....but man, he and Eli just did not click on a lot of short passes, because, for one, Eli is not good at throwing that pass, and because the way defenses played the Giants, Vereen had a lot of passes caught, that were short of first downs.....one of the Giant bugaboos....passes completed on third down, that did not result in first downs.... I watched Vereen play for the Pats and Giants, and the results were much different....call it scheme or Brady throws a better short ball, the results were not the same... If we are pinched for cap space, and need the 3.75M for an OLman, then use it...

Not sure about that. I agree with you that Eli isn't a natural short thrower but...

2013 (Pats) = 47 catches on 69 targets for 25 first downs
2014 (Pats) = 52 catches on 77 targets for 25 first downs
2015 (Giants) = 59 catches on 81 targets for 23 first downs

I get that the ratio of first down catches to total catches has fallen off a bit, but it isn't substantial IMO.

He'd be better in a different offense but he's still useful

Yes he is young, and does not have much mileage on him, but his game doesn't really click with this offense....

He can't stay healthy and for some reason he has developed a habit of fumbling.

We are finally seeing some progress in this team. Lets not go backward. We can do better.

In comment 13319855 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 13319822 pjcas18 said: Quote: until if and when the Giants get pressed for cap space. they save 3.75M by cutting him, but IMO unless they need that space, keep him, and hope he's healthy, his absence contributed to the lackluster offense this year IMO. Good post.

+2.

In comment 13319871 Doomster said:

Quote:

Yes he is young, and does not have much mileage on him, but his game doesn't really click with this offense....

So if you had to explain the differences between the Giants offense from 2015 (6th ranked with 420 points) and 2016 (26th with 310 points) how would you do it.

Of course you'd have to allow something for the difference in opponents played and even garbage time or prevent defenses I guess because the defense was league worst or near it. I don't know if that's a net positive or negative, but assume it's neutral for now.

OL was generally the same. Pugh missed a couple games in 2016, but Richburg missed a game or two in 2015 and Dallas Reynolds filled in.

The major differences on offense were:

Vereen
Rueben Randle
Nikita Whitlock (132 snaps in 2015)

I think the lack of a FB hurt, but minimally (measurable, but minimal) I think the lack of Vereen hurt more than some people realize.

I also think though very few will admit it because he had a 10 cent head and was a public whipping boy, but Randle > Cruz as an outside WR and that hurt the offense.

Of the three though I think the loss of Vereen probably contributed most to the difference in offense proficiency from 2015 to 2016 once you allow for the other variables.

In comment 13319833 est1986 said:

Quote:

Veeren gets one more year..

This

was more effective on the outside than Cruz, despite all the negatives.

He could box out and run slants due to his size....and go high to grab high throws from Eli on those slants. That was his best attribute.

up against the cap for some reason or they need the extra money to make a big OL signing. But I don't see him being the difference between either of those things so I expect him to stick around while Jennings leaves. I think the real question is whether or not they draft another RB in the first 3 rounds.

continue to get younger and healthier. Draft or grab an UDFA RB to complement Perkins.

Go young at RB and move on. Need breakaway speed at running back.

Might be related to the bicep (or was it tricep) he tore twice during the season.

I think he's a fine 3rd down back, really good pass catcher, blocker and more than adequate running the ball. He'd be very useful to have back I. 2017.

But risky now with his injury history. And perhaps with a permanent elevated risk of fumbling.

you can't usually just have young RB's since blocking is one of the hardest things for young RB's to learn.

If you had a mobile QB I'd say give it a shot but Vereen can in fact run the ball including between the tackles, he's got great hands, and he can block.

he's just not that fast or especially elusive, so he's not a sexy HR threat every time he touches the ball. but move the chains? absolutely. Pick up yards on 3rd and forever so you can try and tilt field position? absolutely. disguise formation and switch from run to pass? absolutely.

far more positive for Vereen than negative (price and injuries).

I wouldn't go ballistic if he's cut, but as mentioned previously until there's a reason to cut him, I don't see how it makes the Giants better (depending on who he's replaced with)

but that's why you have Beckham and Shepard....

Release Jennings

Vereen was missed in the passing game, especially on third downs.

In comment 13319933 djstat said:

Quote:

Go young at RB and move on. Need breakaway speed at running back.

We are young with Perkins, why should there be no vets? I'd cut Jennings before Vereen since one has an easily replaceable skillset at this point in his career and the other doesn't.

I actually agree that he has a "huge" impact when he's healthy.

Jennings is the team's power back; if we can find someone younger/better, fine, till then Jennings stays.

Fullback, damn straight it HURT, HURT not having a fullback. Aaron Rogers is future HOF, but the guy I envy them is FB Ripkowski - blocking, catching, that man does it all (I think he was drafted 5th or 6th round)

I've seen far too many drops from him to be comfortable with him as the go to 3rd down back. I think Vereen has to come back, at least for another year.

Perkins is the future. Fix the O-Line.

And draft a better back to compliment him. I would honestly gut our RB corps. Jennings is done and Vereen is always injured and when non injured hasn't really done much for us. Save the money.

Not at 4 million please.

In comment 13320041 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

Quote:

And draft a better back to compliment him. I would honestly gut our RB corps. Jennings is done and Vereen is always injured and when non injured hasn't really done much for us. Save the money.

should the drafted better RB say vereen has nice eyes or should the compliment be football related?

.

Vereen is only a so-so back. But give Eli 3-4 seconds and an O-line that does not give up constant pressure, and Vereen can be a GREAT asset. Or as we say at the Saratoga track, "there are horses for courses."

In comment 13320045 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13320041 BigBlueDownTheShore said: Quote: And draft a better back to compliment him. I would honestly gut our RB corps. Jennings is done and Vereen is always injured and when non injured hasn't really done much for us. Save the money. should the drafted better RB say vereen has nice eyes or should the compliment be football related?

Sorry I meant compliment Perkins. Honestly we could get a better back then Perkins in the draft this year, not saying we will but we could.

In comment 13320056 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

Quote:

In comment 13320045 pjcas18 said: Quote: In comment 13320041 BigBlueDownTheShore said: Quote: And draft a better back to compliment him. I would honestly gut our RB corps. Jennings is done and Vereen is always injured and when non injured hasn't really done much for us. Save the money. should the drafted better RB say vereen has nice eyes or should the compliment be football related? Sorry I meant compliment Perkins. Honestly we could get a better back then Perkins in the draft this year, not saying we will but we could.

I was just being a douche and busting your balls.

compliment = say nice things about
complement = act as a enhancement to; make complete

Also draft another RB this year hopefully.

A lot of posters today are wanting to gut the RB and OL this offseason. The Giants have enough holes to fill without cutting bait on some good depth and a solid third down back.

Vereen, Perkins, a FA RB a draft pick and an UDFA is good. Cutting Jennings and not bringing back Darkwa or Rainey makes more sense to me.

Vereen and Jennings are pedestrian backs at best and their both due to strat breaking down...not worth the $$$.

Stick with Perkins, bring in another vet on the cheap and draft another 3rd or 4th round back.

...and in your offensive backfield. One will go and it will be Jennings.

.

Francesa "but he caught 11 balls in the Super Bowl!"

In comment 13319908 BillKo said:

Quote:

was more effective on the outside than Cruz, despite all the negatives. He could box out and run slants due to his size....and go high to grab high throws from Eli on those slants. That was his best attribute.

This. It's what I've been hammering home for about a month now, but somehow that gets equated to "how could you want Randle back?" or "Randle is not an NFL player". That type of criticism totally misses the point. We need to hold defenses accountable for guys that are not named OBJ.

I would cut bait with Vereen too. RB is a young man's position, and Vereen is a good player, but not worth the price tag.

He knows he's done. No floor shows . Just business. Vereen fumbles too much; he gets hurt too much. Somebody to go with Perkins is what's needed. Somebody like Gillislee on the Bills. Low-profile. Highly productive.

unless he wants a fairly significant pay cut. I'd keep him if he'll stay for around a million, but not too much more than that. Maybe 1.5MM.

I do think it's a real shame what happened with his triceps, because I think his skill set would have been very helpful in defeating the two-high looks we kept seeing. Having said that, we can get younger and a bit cheaper and find someone with the same skill set to come in, imo.

Try to get a younger, more explosive player next to Perkins.

Bye bye Rainey, for certain.

until you actually need to provide the player to move on to.

Giants haven't had a solid running game in years, and tried to move on from Bradshaw/Jacobs to Wilson to Brown to Hillis to Jennings to Williams, to Jennings/Vereen to Perkins gave chances to Rainey, Darkwa and don't forget everyone's favorite football name Mike Cox and the Scott's.

with Vereen IMO the only question is health, if he can stay healthy he's a no-brainer keeper for this year.

If Reese is so concerned about his health than cut him, but I don't think it's as simple as cut him and replace him with a younger healthier player. no shit. just not that easy.

did anyone watch the Chargers game week 17?

18 carries for 87 yards. he looked decent. motivated. Ran over some players instead of tip-toeing to the line. not saying the Giants made a mistake cutting him, he was maddening to watch, but either way thought I'd add to this thread in case people weren't aware.

but there's better ways to appropriate the cap dollars, imv.

Vereen's also now got concussions on his medical dossier.

him

Perkins is nothing like him as a receiver thus far. As a runner Perkins is far superior. It is true you can absolutely find similar younger players (Duke Johnson comes to mind) but you need to draft them or pay them too. This offense with a dedicated third down back was much better.

If cost is the issue we could probably get the soon to be 32 years old Reggie Bush for 1-1.5 million. I'm not sure what young FA is out there that fits this role cheaply.

but fumble and get hurt

bye

the giants field one of the worst HB groups in the league. I hope someone noticed and will look to upgrade.

In comment 13320231 JonC said:

Quote:

but there's better ways to appropriate the cap dollars, imv. Vereen's also now got concussions on his medical dossier.

like with most things I think the decision comes down to $$ and who the replacement is.

if you don't NEED the money urgently and don't have a replacement it makes zero sense to let Vereen go. IMO the team is better with him. He's not a long-term albatross commitment. If the money is urgently needed elsewhere (as I said in my first reply) I won't shed a tear, let him go, but again, he has to be replaced.

I view Vereen's loss as at least a contributor to the degradation in offense from 2015 to 2016 along with some of the other factors I mentioned.

even to the extent he was a key ingredient missing from the '15 version of the offense.

But, I think we'll see some overhaul this offseason and the RB unit figures to be part of it. They need some size and versatility back there, time to go find it.

In comment 13320245 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13320231 JonC said: Quote: but there's better ways to appropriate the cap dollars, imv. Vereen's also now got concussions on his medical dossier. like with most things I think the decision comes down to $$ and who the replacement is. if you don't NEED the money urgently and don't have a replacement it makes zero sense to let Vereen go. IMO the team is better with him. He's not a long-term albatross commitment. If the money is urgently needed elsewhere (as I said in my first reply) I won't shed a tear, let him go, but again, he has to be replaced. I view Vereen's loss as at least a contributor to the degradation in offense from 2015 to 2016 along with some of the other factors I mentioned.

I agree he's a very useful player and frankly underrated. But why are we talking about whether to let Hankins or JPP walk when a 3rd down back and a washed up starting back are taking $6M in cap space throw in cruz for shits and giggles. Those 3 alone can pay for most of Hankins/JPP's annual salary.

Vereen hasn't shown that he can stay healthy for long stretches in his career. For the amount of production that you can expect from an oft injured back in his role you can find with a draft pick on a rookie contract

to cutting him, I would keep him. Jennings, however, should be gone. Rainey shouldn't even be allowed in the building right now.

at this point, what his contract says he's worth. That's the problem.

If we took his cap dollars and used it on another FA like he was two years ago, we should be able to replace him and be younger and healthier.

1. In a scheme in NE that got him in very open space to catch and run, with the QB
2. having a passing lane to dump or throw a pass to him, and,
3. with instructions to get as many yards as possible and either get OOB or fall before hit, because
4. he often fumbled when hit inbounds, and
5 because of 4, was not re-signed by NE.
Guess my opinion?

In comment 13319860 Doomster said:

Quote:

he is not to the Giants what he was to the Patriots...the stats are about the same.....but man, he and Eli just did not click on a lot of short passes, because, for one, Eli is not good at throwing that pass, and because the way defenses played the Giants, Vereen had a lot of passes caught, that were short of first downs.....one of the Giant bugaboos....passes completed on third down, that did not result in first downs.... I watched Vereen play for the Pats and Giants, and the results were much different....call it scheme or Brady throws a better short ball, the results were not the same... If we are pinched for cap space, and need the 3.75M for an OLman, then use it...

Vereen also only fumbled twice in four seasons with the pats. I guess everything is different...

Vereen had 2 fumbles in 4 years with NE.

What kind of trade value he has.. A playoff caliber team may be interested in moving a draft pick for him.

Hank and DRC. Whatever has to happen to take care of those two needs to happen. Vereen is a bit down the list of cuts for me. He's still a very, very effective player when healthy - and this season, he just wasn't healthy. That happens.

In comment 13320645 B in ALB said:

Quote:

Hank and DRC. Whatever has to happen to take care of those two needs to happen. Vereen is a bit down the list of cuts for me. He's still a very, very effective player when healthy - and this season, he just wasn't healthy. That happens.

DRC is under contract this year though. I think a lot of the talk on BBI about "keeping him" refers to the pervasive rumors (and smoke, such as his tweet) that he will be cut, the FO doesn't like him, and that this would be his last year here.

I'm hoping the fact he had a 2nd team all pro season keeps him here. We need him here next year.

Speaking of Andre Williams
pjcas18 : 2:22 pm : link : reply
did anyone watch the Chargers game week 17?

18 carries for 87 yards. he looked decent. motivated. Ran over some players instead of tip-toeing to the line. not saying the Giants made a mistake cutting him, he was maddening to watch, but either way thought I'd add to this thread in case people weren't aware.


Ron Dayne had a few good games after he left us...

we could use the money to sign another OL, then cut him. Finding a 3rd down back is easier

the more holes you have to fill.. I would not cut Vereen..

In comment 13320825 blueblood said:

Quote:

the more holes you have to fill.. I would not cut Vereen..

Someone can fact check this but I believe he has missed a lot of games in his career to due injury. When you pay a guy like that and he spend his time in the ice tub, then the hole is much larger. It basically becomes dead money.

In comment 13319860 Doomster said:

Quote:

he is not to the Giants what he was to the Patriots...the stats are about the same.....but man, he and Eli just did not click on a lot of short passes, because, for one, Eli is not good at throwing that pass, and because the way defenses played the Giants, Vereen had a lot of passes caught, that were short of first downs.....one of the Giant bugaboos....passes completed on third down, that did not result in first downs.... I watched Vereen play for the Pats and Giants, and the results were much different....call it scheme or Brady throws a better short ball, the results were not the same... If we are pinched for cap space, and need the 3.75M for an OLman, then use it...

. Your right and that's a big problem in this offense the rhythm comes from bang bang short slants and dump offs and that sets up longer stuff but Eli does not through the short pass well ..... as I was watching the two offenses GB and NY and the difference is just what everyone doesn't want to admit Rogers hits his guy in stride right on the perfect shoulder Eli does not its behind too high to far or right into the body which slows the WR down a second or 2 int WCO that's a big difference

Keep him if we can. Good reliable 3rd down back that's a veteran. We need veteran assuming Jennings is gone

Cut Jennnings. I do not think there should be any debate here. Is an injured (non legs) season removed from 70 catches and top 10 offense. I truly think him, any resemblance of a blocking Tight end and a few Lineman away from an Elite O for at least another yr or two.