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Coughlin/Gilbride or McAdoo west coast offensive philosophy?

Sean : 1/10/2017 12:07 pm
As a fan, which did you prefer? Eli taking shots down the field or a quick hitting/fast release offense?

Both offenses drive us all nuts at times, that goes for every fan base.

But when they were humming, which do you prefer?

I don't know if I prefer one or the other  
Gman11 : 1/10/2017 12:18 pm : link
and I don't know if the problem is the offensive scheme, but one thing that I hate about the current offense if they were third and long it seemed like they weren't able to go for first down yardage. It was either a draw, screen or short pass hoping the guy could break tackles and make it to the first down marker.
As a fan I hate the WC offense  
JerseyCityJoe : 1/10/2017 12:20 pm : link
However, results have shown it to be the most effective offense in this era.
Coughlin/Gilbride for Eli  
Motley Two : 1/10/2017 12:30 pm : link
McAdoo for just about everybody else on the offense
When they are humming  
kash94 : 1/10/2017 12:33 pm : link
Gilbride's for sure but the biggest issue was the consistency. Thus, I think moving to WCO was a good move
The one thing that has to change is the runs up the middle,  
GeorgeFox : 1/10/2017 12:37 pm : link
on rare occasion they get more than 1 yard. Perhaps a better oline would help.
Norv  
area junc : 1/10/2017 12:37 pm : link
Turner's available.
The old offense was way more exciting  
OdellBeckhamJr : 1/10/2017 12:49 pm : link
dink and dunks to Tye is boring.

For Eli, he's better suited for the old offense (don't get me started about the stats, we know most of the yards are after the catch (which one could use in favor of the WCO)), but his best throws are always downfield.

I agree with the poster above the WCO is best for the rest of the league at this time.
Eli isn't suited to this particular version of the WCO, which is made  
Victor in CT : 1/10/2017 1:06 pm : link
for Aaron Rodgers. TC/KG was better for him. Eli would also be monstrous in the Cowboys system.
Nothing works good  
tomjgiant : 1/10/2017 1:15 pm : link
without an OL that can protect the QB,but in McAdoo's offense the QB gets rid of the ball quicker.
McAdoo, easily  
Go Terps : 1/10/2017 1:17 pm : link
We don't want Eli taking a lot of five and seven step drops at this age. See what Brady is doing in New England. The sooner the ball is out, the better.
The TC/Gilbride offense  
Doomster : 1/10/2017 1:22 pm : link
is not an option with this OL.....

sad part is, I had high hopes for this OL this season, since it was intact, and wasn't going though the shuffling process again......but another year together, and they are worse....

New OL coach philosophy? I don't know.....but going into this season, we thought we had 3 solid rocks in the left side, and two pebbles on the right.....now, I don't know what the hell we have....
You need more talent to run the KG offense  
David in LA : 1/10/2017 1:25 pm : link
.
I'll Modify It  
Bernie : 1/10/2017 1:26 pm : link
and I can't believe I am saying this. But I will take the Coughlin/Gilbride offense, but the playoff version, not the regular season version. I felt like in 2007 & 2011, the playoff version was more about power running and the intermediate stuff with the occasional deep throw. The regular season was more the power run and deep stuff with the occasional intermediate throw.

My concern with this years offense was that the Giants could not run the ball (obviously) and defenses were sitting on the quick throws. That may be incorrect, but that is my perception.
I don't think this offense plays to Eli's strengths  
exiled : 1/10/2017 1:30 pm : link
But if we had even a semblance of pass protection, this offense might be humming. Hard to tell, given the personnel.
The problem with TC/Gilbride's offense is the complexity and time to  
Tom in NY : 1/10/2017 1:59 pm : link
learn it.

The current CBA does not allow the players the time to learn the system in the off season. Learning how to read defenses and make route adjustments with limited practice time or access to the coaches killed that system.
Remember how many times Eli would throw to no one (maybe a defender) because the receiver was not in the right spot?

The realities of the new CBA make a simpler system the right choice.
West Coast  
montanagiant : 1/10/2017 2:02 pm : link
We just need to do the version of it that does NOT simulates LA during rush hour
I don't think it's that simple  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/10/2017 2:08 pm : link
Neither offense is set in stone. It's not pure west coast and 5 - 7 step drop. Both coaches run hybrids.
Eli '17 & '18?  
RetroJint : 1/10/2017 2:09 pm : link
WCO. He can't crank it anymore, anyway . (Hanging around Tom House) So the WCO is a survival manual for him at this stage. But remember, with it comes some of those excellent underneath throws to guys like Cravens & Jenkins, that fast-dial points the other way or end games. But there is no choice
tomjgiant  
Trainmaster : 1/10/2017 2:11 pm : link
+1

It's about the OL.
i'm sure option routes have not disappeared  
HomerJones45 : 1/10/2017 2:28 pm : link
so they can't be that difficult to teach.

The fact that the offense was better with Donnell at tight end, Preston Parker as the 3rd wideout and Andre Williams as the running back with the same o-line should be cause for relection.

We have some questions with this offense. We throw a lot of very short passes- our 6.7 yards per attempt while completing almost 64% of our passes along with the dropoff in 20+ yard completions and the dropoff in nearly a yard in average catch tells us that. As the defense compresses the closer it plays to its own goal line, the harder it is to complete and get anything out of those short throws. Playcalling? Design of the offense?

Now, you should be able run, but we have a total of 11 rushing td the last two years. Total. Our yards per carry was near the bottom of the league. We do not run the ball well. GB, which does not run for a lot yards, averaged nearly a full yard per carry more than we did with a dog's breakfast of running backs. Rodgers scrambling?

So, are we drawing the defenders close to the line of scrimmage with all the short passes? If that is the case, you would think that the middle of the field over the linebackers would be open and the slants into that area would work well but it doesn't seem that we have been throwing them. Are the defenders taking the slant away and forcing throws to the sidelines where the sideline acts as an extra defender? Is the lack of a big receiver a hindrance here?
RE: Norv  
NNJ Tom : 1/10/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13320000 area junc said:
Quote:
Turner's available.


That's not an uncrazy idea.

With this OL, Eli would be in traction  
Section331 : 1/10/2017 2:43 pm : link
trying to run TC/KG's offense. If he doesn't have time to complete 3 step drops, how would he do with 5 and 7 step drops?

I thought KG got a raw deal, here, he was a far better OC than many here gave him credit for. That said, I'm not sure a complicated passing scheme will work in today's NFL, with the modified practice rules.
It's insane  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/10/2017 2:46 pm : link
.
People act like Eli throws from 3 step drops  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/10/2017 2:47 pm : link
every play and Coughlin had him dropping 7 every play. That's just silly.
When both are humming?  
Britt in VA : 1/10/2017 2:49 pm : link
"I cant cover no option route all day!...when i go inside, the man go outside!"

-Carlos Rogers, 2011 NFC Championship Game

When The Coughlin Gilbride offense was on track, it was damn near unstoppable. That Carlos Rogers quote above says it all. It was impossible to stop because it was based on what the defender was doing at the time. When Eli and the WR were on the same page, they both read the DB the same way, they took advantage of the individual movement of that DB, and used it against him. Remember how many back shoulder fades we used to throw to Plax, Toomer, then Smith, then Nicks, and Cruz? They would run defenders right out of their routes. It had to be extremely frustrating for defenders. And this is not to mention the deep ball. For a long stretch, we led the league in completed passes of over 20 yards. The Gilbride/Coughlin offense was always attacking.
WCO is better for us now.  
CT Charlie : 1/10/2017 2:50 pm : link
1) we don't have good enough pass protection for Gilbride's offense
2) young receivers won't be on same page with Eli in Gilbride's offense


Why WCO is not working well now:
1) our oline is so poorthat the defense doesn't have to respect the deep ball
2) we don't have a fast, dependable TE who can turn 6 yards into 10, or 10 yards into 15-20
3) our running game isn't a threat

With our current personnel, there's no scheme/philosophy that will ensure success. To score another 10-14 more points per game, we need to be able to make in-game adjustments in response to the other team. But with McAdoo as HC/playcaller, he isn't engaged in such discussions.




Current day Eli, the WCO, obviously.  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/10/2017 2:52 pm : link
.
RE: McAdoo, easily  
AnishPatel : 1/10/2017 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13320085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We don't want Eli taking a lot of five and seven step drops at this age. See what Brady is doing in New England. The sooner the ball is out, the better.


Exactly! This new system is much better for ELi. Sometimes I wonder, what the opinion of Eli would be in this system if he had this from day 1.
The question wasn't which one you want right now...  
Britt in VA : 1/10/2017 2:54 pm : link
I read it as when both are playing at optimal level, which one do you prefer.
Gilbride TC  
rocco8112 : 1/10/2017 2:56 pm : link
all the way.

That offense did something I have never seen. In 2011 Eli commanded that passing attack to a Super Bowl. Most 4th Quarter TD's ever. Countless comebacks. All time receiving yards and completions record in a playoff tournament. All culminating in a game winning Super Bowl Drive.

To me that passing attack led by Eli brought home a title. It was able to pile up yards and points when it mattered most and when every team in the world knew the pass was coming.

RE: i'm sure option routes have not disappeared  
rocco8112 : 1/10/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13320242 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
so they can't be that difficult to teach.

The fact that the offense was better with Donnell at tight end, Preston Parker as the 3rd wideout and Andre Williams as the running back with the same o-line should be cause for relection.

We have some questions with this offense. We throw a lot of very short passes- our 6.7 yards per attempt while completing almost 64% of our passes along with the dropoff in 20+ yard completions and the dropoff in nearly a yard in average catch tells us that. As the defense compresses the closer it plays to its own goal line, the harder it is to complete and get anything out of those short throws. Playcalling? Design of the offense?

Now, you should be able run, but we have a total of 11 rushing td the last two years. Total. Our yards per carry was near the bottom of the league. We do not run the ball well. GB, which does not run for a lot yards, averaged nearly a full yard per carry more than we did with a dog's breakfast of running backs. Rodgers scrambling?

So, are we drawing the defenders close to the line of scrimmage with all the short passes? If that is the case, you would think that the middle of the field over the linebackers would be open and the slants into that area would work well but it doesn't seem that we have been throwing them. Are the defenders taking the slant away and forcing throws to the sidelines where the sideline acts as an extra defender? Is the lack of a big receiver a hindrance here?


11 rushing TD's in two seasons? Pathetic.
WR  
djstat : 1/10/2017 2:59 pm : link
Could not learn the Gilbride offense.
RE: RE: McAdoo, easily  
HomerJones45 : 1/10/2017 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13320267 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 13320085 Go Terps said:


Quote:


We don't want Eli taking a lot of five and seven step drops at this age. See what Brady is doing in New England. The sooner the ball is out, the better.



Exactly! This new system is much better for ELi. Sometimes I wonder, what the opinion of Eli would be in this system if he had this from day 1.
Averaging 6.5 yard per attempt and not getting anywhere.

Eli is not the hyper-accurate Brady who threw 2 int's this season. The Pats have built their team around the skills of the qb. You want to build an offense based on what some other team with entirely different personnel does and because you like to see 3 yard passes.

It's also a misnomer that the Pats are throwing tons of short passes. Their receivers averaged almost a yard and a half more per catch than ours, and they were 3rd in the league in average per attempt.
Both very effective when working  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 3:30 pm : link
Gilbride's offense was excellent with Plax and Toomer at WR, as well as Nicks and Cruz and a decent TE. A big reason is we had better OL for the years when we were scoring with Gilbride and we had WRs who understood the route decisions. However, as the OL declined we also ran into issues at RB and WR.

McAdoo was brought in to compensate for these deficiencies and for 2 years his offense was outstanding. This year, I think the balance of HC and calling plays was off. If he hires a true OC, I think this offense can be lethal, also assuming we make a few key additions on the OL and then possible TE and/or WR.
We've seen this one work with much shittier personnel on O  
jcn56 : 1/10/2017 3:37 pm : link
Let's bring back prime Nicks/Cruz/Manningham and Bradshaw and Jacobs and see how this offense would fare.
RE: Eli isn't suited to this particular version of the WCO, which is made  
Devon : 1/10/2017 4:39 pm : link
In comment 13320067 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
for Aaron Rodgers. TC/KG was better for him. Eli would also be monstrous in the Cowboys system.

Few were saying this after 2014 or 2015.

And since someone brought up Tom House in a totally agenda-driven way, Eli started to work with him years ago, after the 2013 season, when certain other coaches had failed him during that miserable year, and significantly contributed to him getting back on track. Guys like Brady and Brees rely on him even more than he does and their arms are fine at older ages.
There isn't sufficient  
Joey in VA : 1/10/2017 4:41 pm : link
Practice time for that offense anymore sadly. Given the old CBA I take TC/Gilbride 10 times out of 10. We had the most prolific offensive period this team has ever seen under them and people still ripped Gilbride for it. It was an unprecedented level of offense for this franchise and it's gone.
RE: We've seen this one work with much shittier personnel on O  
Victor in CT : 1/10/2017 4:44 pm : link
In comment 13320355 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Let's bring back prime Nicks/Cruz/Manningham and Bradshaw and Jacobs and see how this offense would fare.


You would need Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie too.
I agree with Britt & Joey..  
Sean : 1/10/2017 4:46 pm : link
as a fan, I'd take the Coughlin style offense of pushing the ball down the field. I remember the 2010 game in Seattle, I think the Giants won something like 42-7. When it was humming, there was no stopping that offense.
RE: When both are humming?  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13320262 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"I cant cover no option route all day!...when i go inside, the man go outside!"

-Carlos Rogers, 2011 NFC Championship Game

When The Coughlin Gilbride offense was on track, it was damn near unstoppable. That Carlos Rogers quote above says it all. It was impossible to stop because it was based on what the defender was doing at the time. When Eli and the WR were on the same page, they both read the DB the same way, they took advantage of the individual movement of that DB, and used it against him. Remember how many back shoulder fades we used to throw to Plax, Toomer, then Smith, then Nicks, and Cruz? They would run defenders right out of their routes. It had to be extremely frustrating for defenders. And this is not to mention the deep ball. For a long stretch, we led the league in completed passes of over 20 yards. The Gilbride/Coughlin offense was always attacking.
Yes. But, the biggest problem was our secondary WRs during this period all seemed to have problems reading and adjusting. Eli was constantly on a different page from a few receivers. But, he was mostly in sync with Plax, Toomer, Cruz, Nicks, and Smith.
RE: There isn't sufficient  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 5:00 pm : link
In comment 13320467 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Practice time for that offense anymore sadly. Given the old CBA I take TC/Gilbride 10 times out of 10. We had the most prolific offensive period this team has ever seen under them and people still ripped Gilbride for it. It was an unprecedented level of offense for this franchise and it's gone.
Excellent point. Although a lot of the difference was also in the film room.
RE: RE: Eli isn't suited to this particular version of the WCO, which is made  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 5:01 pm : link
In comment 13320459 Devon said:
Quote:
In comment 13320067 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


for Aaron Rodgers. TC/KG was better for him. Eli would also be monstrous in the Cowboys system.


Few were saying this after 2014 or 2015.

And since someone brought up Tom House in a totally agenda-driven way, Eli started to work with him years ago, after the 2013 season, when certain other coaches had failed him during that miserable year, and significantly contributed to him getting back on track. Guys like Brady and Brees rely on him even more than he does and their arms are fine at older ages.
Eli had two of his very best seasons in 2014 and 2015, so I can't agree he isn't suited for this offense. I think this year, more than anything else, McAdoo refusing to relinquish the OC duties held us back. I don't think I would have really liked Sullivan though. I'd like to go out and get a real OC to run this offense.
And, for those mentioning Norv Turner  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 5:02 pm : link
The Giants don't have anywhere near the personnel to run his offense. We don't have the OL, FB, TEs, or RB (although Perkins could be).
The biggest factor is probably the OL  
Matt M. : 1/10/2017 5:04 pm : link
We couldn't run the Gilbride offense with this OL. Eli would never have enough time. But, we saw this first hand in 2012 and 2013, which is why McAdoo was brought in to implement the WCO in the first place.
RE: McAdoo, easily  
WillVAB : 1/10/2017 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13320085 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We don't want Eli taking a lot of five and seven step drops at this age. See what Brady is doing in New England. The sooner the ball is out, the better.


Yep. If Gilbride was still running the offense Eli would be getting sacked 5+ times a game behind this OL. It would be like that '13 or '14 Carolina game every single week.
Gilbride  
blueblood'11 : 1/10/2017 11:16 pm : link
All day long. It was an option based passing attack that made it very difficult to defend. Plus throwing the long range to mid range pass was always a strength of Eli's. I think he has lost some of the consistency in throwing it down the field because in the McAdoo offense he throws so many short passes.

I just feel like in this offense it took from Eli what it was he did best and cast it to the side. Then when he's asked to do it he either over throws it or under throws it. Having said that he threw three beautiful passes of which one was caught by King. All thee would have been touchdowns. One was.
Get outta here with norv turner  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2017 11:24 pm : link
Tired of retread coaches and their 20 year old schemes.

Gilbride's offense is very particular. There's no time in today's game to coach up your wide receivers to read defenses like quarterbacks.
I'm partial to Gilbride's.  
an_idol_mind : 1/11/2017 8:51 am : link
I feel like Gilbride's offense enabled the type of play that Eli excels at the most.

However, it's really hard to judge McAdoo's offense thoroughly because the Giants have had mostly terrible personnel since he started.

I think that 2011 tricked the front office guys into thinking they could get by another year or two without really addressing the offensive line, and that probably took playoff appearances and possibly championships off the table.
Got be McAdoo  
TheEvilLurker : 1/11/2017 10:15 am : link
I remember new receivers having trouble acclimating with Gilbride's system. It counts on both the QB and WR knowing where each is going. That's why Eli threw more picks.

I much prefer this system, although I would like to see better planned running plays to get defenses off the cover 2.
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