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Time for an old fashioned George Young OL cluster draft?

NYRiese : 1/11/2017 8:37 am
At least the 1st 4 rounds?
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It is highly doubtful they draft DT in round 1  
JonC : 1/11/2017 11:54 am : link
unless their targets among premium positions are exhausted.

You could almost hear Reese in the past say they prefer value at DR starting in Round 2.
DT  
JonC : 1/11/2017 11:55 am : link
not DR
RE: The time to make cluster additions to the OL came and went last year  
jcn56 : 1/11/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13321312 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We had huge money and both Kelechi Osemele (RG) and Mitchell Schwartz (RT) were available in free agency. Osemele made first team All Pro, Schwartz made second team.

I don't see this year's OL FA class being as fruitful, and we have much less cap space. An opportunity lost.

We're going to have to make the best of what we've got. I'd be surprised to see more than one change to the OL in 2017.


I'm curious Terps - did you see Osemele as a much better player than Vernon (obviously, different sides of the ball).

Osemele made an obscene amount of money for a guard. Plenty of people pointed out that we overpaid for Vernon, and just as many felt the same about Osemele. I do think Osemele had the better year (although not by much), as both ended up on the AP team (1st vs 2nd, though), and DE is more of a premium position than OG.

You were against the Vernon signing, but would have had no problem paying Osemele?

On Schwartz, I think the history with his brother pretty much brought any possibility of that happening to an abrupt end before it even started.
RE: 2012  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13321373 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
I don't see 3rd DT as a backup at all, its a position where you smash face with huge 320lb violent professional athletes all game long, and is the lynchpin to our D and team game right now.

Put it this way, after carrying the team all year, hank and snacks caught a few breathers from bromley in the last game...and we lost.



So if they didn't need a breath the Giants would have won? Of course not.

I understand where you are coming from but you are drafting a backup which isn't going to starting anytime soon. These aren't DE's who get moved around.

You better have an impact DT if you go #1 when the team already has two young DT and a backup who wasn't bad.

jcn  
Go Terps : 1/11/2017 12:16 pm : link
I do see Osemele as a better player, and one that would have had a greater positive impact on the team than Vernon did. I think the biggest single problem with the 2016 Giants was the inability to run the ball with any authority. Had we been able to do so the two high coverage that troubled our passing game would have disappeared quickly. Osemele could have made an enormous difference in that regard, and the trickle down to the rest of the offense would have been significant.

I don't dislike Vernon as a player and I think we were better this year for having had him. But he is being paid like a premier pass rusher and we had trouble generating a conventional pass rush all season.

Osemele is making huge money, yeah. For a guard. $25 million guaranteed over 5 years is significant. But it's still less than half of the guaranteed money Vernon got. If Osemele is making obscene money, then we need to come up with a new word for Vernon.
RE: RE: The time to make cluster additions to the OL came and went last year  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13321395 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In



I'm curious Terps - did you see Osemele as a much better player than Vernon (obviously, different sides of the ball).



Not asking me but but i did. With so many holes the team couldn't go wrong and needed all the talent they could get yet, IMO, Osemele is a better OL than Vernon is a DE. Not to mention, Osemele makes the QB better than Vernon does and this league is built around the QB.
It may be time to re evaluate positional value  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/11/2017 12:29 pm : link
Based on changing times. Having one good DE doesn't do you much good in the NFL today, but having one exceptional guard or tackle can be the mortar of a good offensive line and contribute more on a play to play basis.
Always good to toss a delusional mock draft into  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 12:29 pm : link
a thread about a cluster

Odd on %?
Link - ( New Window )
Love the Save the Whales Draft  
TruBlue56 : 1/11/2017 1:43 pm : link
I would be happy if we get the following in the 1st 2 rounds.

OT - Cam Robinson - Alabama
OT/OG - Adam Bisnowaty - Pitt
Well in 2001 the Giants  
mrvax : 1/11/2017 1:55 pm : link
"cluster drafted" Will Peterson & Will Allen.

That said, you really have to go best playmaker available in the 1st round and as the draft progresses you can target certain positions of need.

Look how we got stuck with Flowers who may have been the best LOT on the board with the 9th pick. They probably should have taken Gurley. Now the Giants are unsure WTH to do with Flowers.


Just pointing this out without commentary  
pjcas18 : 1/11/2017 1:58 pm : link
if the Giants use another 1st round pick this year on an OL they'll have more premium draft pick investment in the OL than the Cowboys, and the most draft pick investment in the OL in the entire NFL.

they'd have:

Flowers: 1st
Pugh: 1st
Richburg: 2nd
RG: TBD
RT: 1st (I assume or even flip this with Flowers)

The Cowboys also have 3 1sts (Smith, Frederick, and Martin), but the other two are 4th (Free) and UDFA (Leary)

at some point your talent evaluation of the OL needs to be questioned and you might be better off bringing in proven vets and spending FA cash instead of premium draft picks.
Been calling for this for at least five years...written several posts  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 1/11/2017 2:19 pm : link
about it...drafting Pugh and Richburg was good but too little.

Flowers shows nothing to me at this point and seems to be a problematic player. If his techniques is still bad after two years, 33 starts, two training camps and all that practice, what does that say to you? Flats and Solari are excellent OL coaches.

To me, that says everything you need to know about this player. Unfortunately, this is a bad draft for the OL or so I hear. Nonetheless, Reese better do something positive. Eli is now 36 and JR has ruined his last five years, mostly because of a bad offensive line.
RE: Only if  
Matt in SGS : 1/11/2017 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13321358 old man said:
Quote:
we were drafting top 10, AND, it was a good OL draft.
Neither one of those are true, for us.
I was hoping Sy'56s writeups on OL had more candidates, and the gradings were better; neither one of those are true for us, especially at #23.
And the FA class is: Get the best of whatever there is. Leary MIGHT happen, but will he leave a Dallas team thats arrows up? Same with Rieff,Lang, and 1-2 others on contenders. What does Whitworth have at 35y.o., will Smith leave Minny?
And, aside from $$$, do any of them fit our OL scheme?


Dallas is 17 million over the cap. They are screwed next year. They already have their OL locked up and literally can't afford to keep Leary as a luxury 6th OL. That's why they signed Cooper.
Dallas' cap situation  
Matt in SGS : 1/11/2017 2:28 pm : link
Quote:
2017 Salary Cap Total: $172,249,697
Projected 2017 Salary Cap Space: $-16,979,697
2017 Dead Money: $259,598
Simply put, the Dallas Cowboys have a lot of salary cap work to do between now and the 2017 season.

They can start by restructuring contracts for guys like quarterback Tony Romo ($24.7 million cap hit), wide receiver Dez Bryant ($17 million cap hit), left tackle Tyron Smith ($15.8 million cap hit), linebacker Sean Lee ($9.95 million cap hit), and tight end Jason Witten ($9.512 million cap hit). There is also a chance that they could completely part ways with Romo ó which would free up a huge chunk of change ó if rookie quarterback Dak Prescott continues to play at a high level.

When all is said and done, itís highly unlikely that the Cowboys will be able to free up enough cap space to be aggressive during free agency next offseason. However, they should be able to keep their core group of players intact if they do things right.


They are boned cap wise.
http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/nfl-teams-facing-salary-cap-issues-2017.html/?a=viewall - ( New Window )
RE: Those of you  
WillVAB : 1/11/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13321066 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
expecting multiple new starters on the OL are once again going to be disappointed.

Flowers, Richburg, and Pugh will obviously start. Flowers might be moved to the right.

Jerry will likely be gone.

I wouldn't be shocked if Hart is a starter.

We are probably looking at one new starter. A tackle if Flowers moves, if he doesn't move it could be a guard. They could also move Hart inside.


Historically, Reese tries to plug as many holes as possible in FA so there's a little more flexibility in the draft. The OL has the most holes with Jerry and Newhouse as FA's along with performance issues of the OL as a whole.

I could see Reese signing a few OL in FA of the non-sexy variety and drafting an OL somewhere before the 4th round.

RE: Been calling for this for at least five years...written several posts  
mrvax : 1/11/2017 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13321633 Thatís Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
about it...drafting Pugh and Richburg was good but too little.

Flowers shows nothing to me at this point and seems to be a problematic player. If his techniques is still bad after two years, 33 starts, two training camps and all that practice, what does that say to you? Flats and Solari are excellent OL coaches.

To me, that says everything you need to know about this player. Unfortunately, this is a bad draft for the OL or so I hear. Nonetheless, Reese better do something positive. Eli is now 36 and JR has ruined his last five years, mostly because of a bad offensive line.


It also tells me that the Giants are not good at selecting Oline talent from rounds 3-7 (and UDFAs.)

I cannot see why our Giants should be forced into the position of drafting Oline in rounds 1 and 2. That's where your damn playmakers usually come from. Sure, if an Oline guy is that good you take him early. Giants pissed away a pick on Flowers who should have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder let alone the 9th pick of the draft.
Cluster drafting doesn't make any sense  
JonC : 1/11/2017 3:16 pm : link
when you have an immediate need at RT and RG. Use UFA for attacking urgent needs.
OL  
stretch234 : 1/11/2017 4:30 pm : link
Lets look back at that. Elliott was the best player. Kratch was a fill in starter and the Giants moved on from him after his 1st full year starting.

Brian Williams basically did not play until his 6th year - you do not have that luxury any more

E. Moore was OK - certainly not close to justifying the 10th pick in the draft

If those guys were picked by Reese, with 1 a spot starter, 1 basically not playing and 1 not justifying the 10th pick, as a G he would be vilified more than he already is

At least it helped make up for his cluster drafting of WR in 85-87:

S. Robinson, T. Henderson, V. Warren, R. Brown, S. Miller, S. Baker, O. Turner, M. Ingram
didn't we draft 2 TEs the year we drafted Derek Brown  
markky : 1/11/2017 8:14 pm : link
cluster drafting can fail.

RE: didn't we draft 2 TEs the year we drafted Derek Brown  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 8:25 pm : link
In comment 13322062 markky said:
Quote:
cluster drafting can fail.


Com'on, Brown in the 1st and Pierce in the 3rd is a cluster?

For two straight years in the late 80's the Giants used both #1 and #2 picks on OL. That's the top four picks over two years.
RE: Cluster drafting doesn't make any sense  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 8:27 pm : link
In comment 13321726 JonC said:
Quote:
when you have an immediate need at RT and RG. Use UFA for attacking urgent needs.


IMO, it's not nearly as easy this year. Unlike last year, this year is saturated with teams with as much or more money than the top four last year. Half the league has as much money. The bidding for anybody is going to be through the roof.
Cluster drafting amounts to football malpractice.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/11/2017 8:31 pm : link
Gross misuse of critical resources. Comparing the 80's to now couldn't be less relevant.

The draft had 12 rounds back then, and that's just one major difference.
They need two offensive tackles  
Since1965 : 1/11/2017 8:41 pm : link
Pugh and Richberg stay. Flowers moves to RG (he'll get burned just as badly if he's at RT). Jerry, Newhouse and Hart are depth players, not starters.
RE: Cluster drafting amounts to football malpractice.  
Giants2012 : 1/11/2017 9:25 pm : link
In comment 13322074 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Gross misuse of critical resources. Comparing the 80's to now couldn't be less relevant.


Go check out the drafts of many teams. Top of my head I pulled the Pats and Steelers drafts

The Steelers have used 3 out of their last 4 top picks on CB

The Pats went 5 Db's in two years in 2012/2013 after the Giants beat them in 2011.

Examples of teams clustering are everywhere so it is relevant.

Meanwhile, out team of diversity has made the playoffs once in 5 years for one game.
RE: They need two offensive tackles  
SGMen : 1/11/2017 10:01 pm : link
In comment 13322084 Since1965 said:
Quote:
Pugh and Richberg stay. Flowers moves to RG (he'll get burned just as badly if he's at RT). Jerry, Newhouse and Hart are depth players, not starters.
If we sign OG Leary and a UFA OT I wonder if Pugh kicks out to say RT again?
going to be a long off-season!
RE: RE: Cluster drafting doesn't make any sense  
JonC : 1/12/2017 8:30 am : link
In comment 13322067 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13321726 JonC said:


Quote:


when you have an immediate need at RT and RG. Use UFA for attacking urgent needs.



IMO, it's not nearly as easy this year. Unlike last year, this year is saturated with teams with as much or more money than the top four last year. Half the league has as much money. The bidding for anybody is going to be through the roof.


I know fans don't want to hear this, but if NYG doesn't address the right side of the OL via UFA, it's likely the unit goes largely unchanged in 2017. Draft picks aren't likely to get the nod over the incumbents.
RE: RE: RE: Cluster drafting doesn't make any sense  
WillVAB : 1/12/2017 9:11 am : link
In comment 13322355 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13322067 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13321726 JonC said:


Quote:


when you have an immediate need at RT and RG. Use UFA for attacking urgent needs.



IMO, it's not nearly as easy this year. Unlike last year, this year is saturated with teams with as much or more money than the top four last year. Half the league has as much money. The bidding for anybody is going to be through the roof.



I know fans don't want to hear this, but if NYG doesn't address the right side of the OL via UFA, it's likely the unit goes largely unchanged in 2017. Draft picks aren't likely to get the nod over the incumbents.


I don't think that's the case anymore under the new regime.
If that were true  
JonC : 1/12/2017 9:15 am : link
there would've been changes for 2016, rather than choose to ride Newhouse and Jerry.
Can't say they won't change for certain  
JonC : 1/12/2017 9:15 am : link
but the evidence isn't there yet.
RE: If that were true  
WillVAB : 1/12/2017 11:42 am : link
In comment 13322395 JonC said:
Quote:
there would've been changes for 2016, rather than choose to ride Newhouse and Jerry.


There weren't any other options at OL.

Look at other positions. Plenty of rookies were thrown into the fire, which wasn't common under the old regime.
Clearly  
JonC : 1/12/2017 11:58 am : link
I was speaking about OL, specifically.
The regime chose  
JonC : 1/12/2017 11:59 am : link
to stick with two players as starters who were signed as backups.

Slow to change.
Also, it's about the player beating out a veteran  
JonC : 1/12/2017 12:04 pm : link
rather than choose simply to start a rookie because he's a draft pick.

They looked at UFAs last Winter and chose to stick with sub-par players. It's a chain of sub-par decisions.
Also, an OL "cluster draft" could very easily turn into a  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2017 12:10 pm : link
"cluster fuck". The Reese team does not have a great track record when it comes to drafting offensive lineman. How would you feel if they went OL in the first 2 rounds and they both sucked? And this is not a great OL draft from early previews.

The Rd 1 and 2 OL track record since 2009 when the took Beatty isn't overly impressive so far. Beatty was meh, Pugh seems to be the best of them but hasn't really been great, and he's been hurt often, Richburg is struggling and so is Flowers.
No but I think we cluster SIGN at least 2 solid vet FAs  
TD : 1/12/2017 12:29 pm : link
One starter and one to replace Jerry as a swing guy. I think we go into the season with a FA LT, Pugh, Richburg, Flowers and Hart/FA as the line, left to right.

RE: The regime chose  
WillVAB : 1/12/2017 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13322677 JonC said:
Quote:
to stick with two players as starters who were signed as backups.

Slow to change.


Reese tried to sign guys in FA last year but they went elsewhere. Reese didn't draft a single OL last year. There was no one on the roster to compete unless you want to count Hart, who actually won the job.

A rookie OL will start for the Giants if he's talented enough -- which shouldn't be too much of a challenge.
Same thing was said last year  
JonC : 1/12/2017 5:05 pm : link
and yet they skipped over both and stuck with known entities.

It sounds good on paper, though.
Again, my comment was not to say they won't bother to play a rookie  
JonC : 1/12/2017 5:09 pm : link
it is to say rookies tend to not win starting jobs, especially over veterans the coaches comfortable with.
RE: RE: The regime chose  
Dan in the Springs : 1/12/2017 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13322856 WillVAB said:
Quote:

Reese tried to sign guys in FA last year but they went elsewhere.


From all indications all FA tackles brought in were told they were being brought in to compete for the RT job, that the LT job was already taken. This is something I have an issue with if true - almost as though we were trying to protect Flowers from having to compete for his job.
RE: Also, an OL  
Giants2012 : 1/12/2017 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13322693 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
"cluster fuck". The Reese team does not have a great track record when it comes to drafting offensive lineman. How would you feel if they went OL in the first 2 rounds and they both sucked? And this is not a great OL draft from early previews.

.


The suck already so what is there to lose? Can't win without an OL. They got away with a lot this year. They also missed the playoffs for almost half a decade.

As far the previews, they're as close to fake news as there is as they've proven to be wrong year after year.

This OL passed "enough is enough" two years ago and they still stink. Look at this mess.
"Left tackles are no longer 'safe' first-round picks"  
HBart : 1/12/2017 5:32 pm : link
A draft time article on NFL.COM. One of the things that's hard for us to see as fans but it sounds like the new CBA has made a really big impact on development of players where technique varies from college. Left tackle is of course the poster child for that. Perhaps in a few years they'll recognize how it's diluting the quality of the game and revamp. Giants were unfortunate to be one of the teams that needed a left tackle (badly) under the new CBA.

George Young and Ernie Accorsi took the better part of a decade (like many GMs) to understand how to manage a roster under the salary cap. Reese and other GMs are probably now just understanding how the impact on player development.


"They're not getting any better because they don't ever get to practice football," Cardinals coach Bruce Arians explained, via the Indianapolis Star's Stephen Holder. "Since we've made the rule changes, the quality of the athlete has gone way up, and the quality of the football has gone way down. ... When we draft them, they just go through the entire spring without pads just doing stupid a-- drills that don't get them any better."
Link - ( New Window )
I don't think LTs have been safe picks in a long time  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/12/2017 5:50 pm : link
Everybody loves the idea of picking a tackle, but those picks either fail often or develop slowly very often. Look at the most recent crops of them. Who was the day one star?
HBart  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 5:57 pm : link
That Arians quote is very telling.

It seems that the logical move for coaches would be twofold:

1. Simplify the game in order to be able to teach it more thoroughly in the limited practice time available.

2. This may already be happening, but reduce the changes the players encounter between college and pros. I'm sure this can be applied to any position on the field, but to my untrained eye the most glaring mistakes are made with young, mobile quarterbacks that are converted by coaches into pocket QBs to their detriment.
The college game changed so much  
Giants2012 : 1/12/2017 6:07 pm : link
it's almost as tough to find a QB who can learn as it is an OL man IMO.
Even Joe Montana has said college QBs are rarely asked  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/12/2017 6:29 pm : link
to read defenses.
RE: HBart  
HBart : 1/12/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13323182 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That Arians quote is very telling.

It seems that the logical move for coaches would be twofold:

1. Simplify the game in order to be able to teach it more thoroughly in the limited practice time available.

2. This may already be happening, but reduce the changes the players encounter between college and pros. I'm sure this can be applied to any position on the field, but to my untrained eye the most glaring mistakes are made with young, mobile quarterbacks that are converted by coaches into pocket QBs to their detriment.


Indeed. Simplifying things, kind of like what McAdoo did I suppose. Imagine if his coaches had a chance to coach. I knew they limited padded practices, but 14 per season? That's mind boggling.
RE: I really do hate...  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/12/2017 8:41 pm : link
In comment 13321218 BillKo said:
Quote:
when people post, by round, what positions we should take in that round.

That's not how you draft.

Why simply take a position if that position isn't worthy of being picked.

And why would you draft OL in the first four rounds when there are much better players to improve your football team at other positions????


They did that w Flowers. Who was no where near a top 10 pick. Same w Pugh. He's been very solid but Kyle Long who went one spot after him as been a lot better Maybe he was the best OL on the team the last two years but that's really saying more about the OL. HE hasn't sniffed a Pro bowl. Very solid career but no one is giving him some huge contract of the Giants let him go.
RE: jcn  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/12/2017 8:45 pm : link
In comment 13321430 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I do see Osemele as a better player, and one that would have had a greater positive impact on the team than Vernon did. I think the biggest single problem with the 2016 Giants was the inability to run the ball with any authority. Had we been able to do so the two high coverage that troubled our passing game would have disappeared quickly. Osemele could have made an enormous difference in that regard, and the trickle down to the rest of the offense would have been significant.

I don't dislike Vernon as a player and I think we were better this year for having had him. But he is being paid like a premier pass rusher and we had trouble generating a conventional pass rush all season.

Osemele is making huge money, yeah. For a guard. $25 million guaranteed over 5 years is significant. But it's still less than half of the guaranteed money Vernon got. If Osemele is making obscene money, then we need to come up with a new word for Vernon.


Great post. IMO Reese has blinders on when it comes to DE and WR. as if a Gronk or a Kelce isn't as valuable as a WR. Vernon's cash could have gone to him easily. He's gettin Von Miller money. Didn't play near that level even when healthy. Great kid. Great teammate but he as some proving to next year. Snacks and Hankins were monsters this year. He saw a ton of single teams.
RE: Again, my comment was not to say they won't bother to play a rookie  
WillVAB : 1/12/2017 9:36 pm : link
In comment 13323140 JonC said:
Quote:
it is to say rookies tend to not win starting jobs, especially over veterans the coaches comfortable with.


You think Reese and the coaching staff will be comfortable with the same OL group in '17?
I sure as hell hope not  
JonC : 1/13/2017 8:29 am : link
but we said the same thing a year ago. Despite the unit's high rank, the OL had many of the same problems.
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