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JPP Vs OV

Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:10 am
Our biggest decision this offseason will be what to do about JPP and bringing him back. No slight on Hankins but I think we'd all agree that the JPP is a more valuable piece for this defense.

It got me thinking about JPP vs OV. Forgetting age and what the contracts will wind up being who do you think is a better player?

Personally, I think it's JPP. He has better measurable (even with the loss of a few fingers) and is a more natural pass rusher. Both are great against the run but I think JPP has more wiggle in the pass game and does a great job of knocking balls down at the LOS.

OV, had a good season for us but I'm not sure I see any upside with him. I think he's an 8-10 sack guy who will be a great edge run defender.
I don't agree JPP is necessarily more important than Hankins  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 1/12/2017 11:13 am : link
JPP has had one year where he played pretty much the entire year. I don't think it's make or break in bringing him back. I think having a run stuffing interior is more critical.
Haha  
ryanmkeane : 1/12/2017 11:13 am : link
...no upside with Vernon? Got it. Do you ever stop?
RE: I don't agree JPP is necessarily more important than Hankins  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:15 am : link
In comment 13322566 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
JPP has had one year where he played pretty much the entire year. I don't think it's make or break in bringing him back. I think having a run stuffing interior is more critical.


Interesting take. JPP is going to get paid more than Hankins by virtue of pass rushing being more valued than interior DL. I think we can get by with a rotation of Bromley/Thomas/FAVET(or draft pick) next to snacks.

Conversely if we lose JPP I don't see any possible way to replace his production next year.
RE: Haha  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:17 am : link
In comment 13322568 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
...no upside with Vernon? Got it. Do you ever stop?


Perhaps my choice of words was wrong. What I mean about OV is I don't see an extra gear or any untapped potential with him. He's a sound player from a technique standpoint and is has now played five full years. Athletically/physically I don't think he can do the things JPP can do.
Vernon played the whole season all busted up  
jcn56 : 1/12/2017 11:17 am : link
and still played very well. I'm looking forward to seeing him healthy next season.

JPP vs. Hank - I'd rather get Hankins back as well. I do want JPP back, but I think he's holding out for top dollar and I think cost/benefit wise Hankins will provide greater ROI. It will suck if we lose JPP though.
I have to disagree...JPP  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 1/12/2017 11:19 am : link
continues to not put up the numbers against quality opponents. I mean three of his sacks and big INT for a touchdown came against Cleveland and once again when we needed him he got hurt.

He has only played one full season in his 7 years with the Giants. It is more than likely that will not get better as he gets older.

JPP at a reasonable contract...otherwise, goodbye. OV played a complete full season, played through a broken hand, and was a big impact in terms of the pass rush, admittedly more pressures than sacks, and also in defending the run game.

I like JPP but, let's be realistic, his injury past does not inspire confidence going forward.
Vernon  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:20 am : link
played more snaps than any player at his position in the NFL. Kudos to him being a warrior and gutting it out but his production is in line with what he's been in the NFL.

I don't see him ever being a 13-14 sack guy that I think JPP can accomplish.

Interesting to see a few of you value Hankins over JPP though. I think the contracts each will net is a strong indication of what's more important to the team.
For starters..  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/12/2017 11:22 am : link
Vernon is the very definition of an ascending talent. So there is that.

Secondly, I'm not really sure why a comparison really needs to be made between the two in regards to whether or not to sign him. They both played very well.

The Giants will assign a value to both Hankins and JPp, and will likely make offers to both. I don't expect the conversation in the FO will start with "Is JPP better than Vernon?"
RE: I have to disagree...JPP  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13322582 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
continues to not put up the numbers against quality opponents. I mean three of his sacks and big INT for a touchdown came against Cleveland and once again when we needed him he got hurt.

He has only played one full season in his 7 years with the Giants. It is more than likely that will not get better as he gets older.

JPP at a reasonable contract...otherwise, goodbye. OV played a complete full season, played through a broken hand, and was a big impact in terms of the pass rush, admittedly more pressures than sacks, and also in defending the run game.

I like JPP but, let's be realistic, his injury past does not inspire confidence going forward.


Some good points Jerry. However, 2 of OV 8.5 sacks came in that Cleveland game too. I don't think you can cherry pick when the sacks game and against whom.

In fact I can think of two game changing sacks from JPP and cant think of any from OV. One was against the skins at the end of the half and the other when Chicago was driving for the winning score.
RE: For starters..  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13322589 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
Vernon is the very definition of an ascending talent. So there is that.

Secondly, I'm not really sure why a comparison really needs to be made between the two in regards to whether or not to sign him. They both played very well.

The Giants will assign a value to both Hankins and JPp, and will likely make offers to both. I don't expect the conversation in the FO will start with "Is JPP better than Vernon?"


I don't think they will either. Vernon was 25 heading into free agency and was a better signing than a 28 yr old 7 fingered JPP. Just curious who people think is the better player putting contracts/age aside.
Right now for for the entirety of their careers to date  
ron mexico : 1/12/2017 11:26 am : link
JPP is and has been the better player.

I cant predict the future so I wont try.
This defense dominated without JPP  
BillT : 1/12/2017 11:26 am : link
I'd love to have him back (I want everyone!) but the 2nd Dallas game showed what they can do without him. However, there's no question the pass rush wasn't as effective without him.
How is this a discussion?  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 11:28 am : link
Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.

RE: How is this a discussion?  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13322602 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.


lol
RE: This defense dominated without JPP  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13322599 BillT said:
Quote:
I'd love to have him back (I want everyone!) but the 2nd Dallas game showed what they can do without him. However, there's no question the pass rush wasn't as effective without him.


Dallas is a bad example IMO. They're a team looking to run the ball all game. Against a team like GB where they're going to throw the majority of the game OV was nowhere near the QB. JPP on the other side would have been a big help.
RE: Right now for for the entirety of their careers to date  
jcn56 : 1/12/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13322598 ron mexico said:
Quote:
JPP is and has been the better player.

I cant predict the future so I wont try.


That's the problem - handing a player money is doing exactly that, predicting the future.

I'm less concerned about JPP's fingers than I am his back and the rest of his body. At 28, there's a good chance he starts to break down.

Not that I don't want him back, or that I wouldn't pay him double digits millions, but I think I'd refrain from paying top DE dollar because I don't expect him to age well.
The defense played pretty well  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/12/2017 11:34 am : link
even when JPP got hurt and was out. Just saying.
his injury past  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 11:37 am : link
is part of what will net him a contract that is reasonable, IMO. His injuries aren't a secret, every single team will use that as the #1 factor in wanting him for a lower price. We have no idea what that price will be, but I don't see him getting OV money.

He's one of the few players I'd pay for despite the injured past. His injury this year was unrelated to his hand or back which is a really good thing.
RE: RE: This defense dominated without JPP  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13322610 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13322599 BillT said:


Quote:


I'd love to have him back (I want everyone!) but the 2nd Dallas game showed what they can do without him. However, there's no question the pass rush wasn't as effective without him.



Dallas is a bad example IMO. They're a team looking to run the ball all game. Against a team like GB where they're going to throw the majority of the game OV was nowhere near the QB. JPP on the other side would have been a big help.


We'd be saying the same thing if OV was out and JPP was in most likely. You need 2 pass rushers in this league, plain and simple.
RE: his injury past  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:38 am : link
In comment 13322626 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is part of what will net him a contract that is reasonable, IMO. His injuries aren't a secret, every single team will use that as the #1 factor in wanting him for a lower price. We have no idea what that price will be, but I don't see him getting OV money.

He's one of the few players I'd pay for despite the injured past. His injury this year was unrelated to his hand or back which is a really good thing.


Agree. The giants need to bolster their pass rush WITH JPP. Losing JPP would be a big step back for this team IMO.

I like Hankins but he's replaceable.
OV > JPP  
MotownGIANTS : 1/12/2017 11:39 am : link
due to age and longevity. JPP production is no that much greater when you consider LONG term team building continuity and CAP ramifications as well as in a pinch you had to make a trade (super slim chance but you take what if into account)

Hankins vs JPP .... Build middle to the outside ... IMO
The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 11:39 am : link
While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).
RE: RE: I don't agree JPP is necessarily more important than Hankins  
WillVAB : 1/12/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13322574 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13322566 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


JPP has had one year where he played pretty much the entire year. I don't think it's make or break in bringing him back. I think having a run stuffing interior is more critical.



Interesting take. JPP is going to get paid more than Hankins by virtue of pass rushing being more valued than interior DL. I think we can get by with a rotation of Bromley/Thomas/FAVET(or draft pick) next to snacks.

Conversely if we lose JPP I don't see any possible way to replace his production next year.


This kind of thinking led to Cofield and Joseph walking which led to wasted draft picks on replacements (Austin) and questionable FA contracts (Canty).

It's a tough call between JPP and Hankins. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but Hankins deserves a little more credit in terms of his value to the defense. Snacks and Hankins were the main reason why the run defense was so good this year.
I would take JPP  
tomjgiant : 1/12/2017 11:41 am : link
He brings a little more to the table when he is on the field.That is the catch,he needs to play 16 games.Vernon has a great motor and gets pressure and makes plays.I just think JPP does a little more as far as getting sacks and knocking passes down.
That said , having both of them with the secondary staying as good as they were with DRC in can be a dominant defense.
Vernon  
mdthedream : 1/12/2017 11:42 am : link
Just on injury issues alone.
RE: The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:42 am : link
In comment 13322633 Go Terps said:
Quote:
While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).


Some good points but DRC is not a free agent. He has two years left on his contract.
RE: RE: The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13322641 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13322633 Go Terps said:


Quote:


While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).



Some good points but DRC is not a free agent. He has two years left on his contract.


He does? Then why all the discussion of him leaving?
RE: RE: RE: The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13322645 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13322641 Old Dirty Beckham said:


Quote:


In comment 13322633 Go Terps said:


Quote:


While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).



Some good points but DRC is not a free agent. He has two years left on his contract.



He does? Then why all the discussion of him leaving?


Relatively high cap # and only played 60 percent or so of snaps.
shouldnt it  
tony71 : 1/12/2017 11:46 am : link
be, JPP vs Romeo Okwara? I like JPP, would be happy if he was on the team next year, but what point do you draw the line? RO seemed to do a pretty good job filling in for JPP. Im not sure of JPP stats in his first few games and how much better he was compared to Okwara, but could this be his replacement if JPP walks? or is he more of a rotational or back up player? Im not one for stats or draft write ups, so really am curious. With Okwara taking over at the end of the season does it give the Giants any leverage?
Saying JPP didn't perform vs top OL  
KWALL2 : 1/12/2017 11:50 am : link
Isn't a valid point. Especially when the only follow up to that is "3 sacks came vs CLE".

Only a simpleton rates a DE by sacks. How many times does that have to be explained?
You can't knock OV for getting sacks vs CLE  
est1986 : 1/12/2017 11:50 am : link
He went up against Joe Thomas.

But I do agree that JPP is much more valuable than Hankins and wish someone who disagrees would explain why the think so? Hankins is a solid DT in this game and he is still young but he has not shown that he is a "special player" the way JPP is. IMHO BBI has Hankins overrated.
RE: shouldnt it  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:50 am : link
In comment 13322649 tony71 said:
Quote:
be, JPP vs Romeo Okwara? I like JPP, would be happy if he was on the team next year, but what point do you draw the line? RO seemed to do a pretty good job filling in for JPP. Im not sure of JPP stats in his first few games and how much better he was compared to Okwara, but could this be his replacement if JPP walks? or is he more of a rotational or back up player? Im not one for stats or draft write ups, so really am curious. With Okwara taking over at the end of the season does it give the Giants any leverage?


I think the Giants like Romeo but if they lost JPP I'd be surprised if they didn't shoot for a player like Calias Campbell or use a top two draft choice on a DE. If JPP is gone we cant rely solely on the current roster to replace him.
DRC's snap count  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 11:54 am : link
wasn't something that had to be done, part of it was a luxury with having Apple. He was banged up here and there, but he was also given time off because we were able to afford it.

I'm with Terps on DRC. I think he means more to this defense right now than JPP does (and I'm a huge fan). Our exit from the playoffs happened as soon as DRC went down. Unless they have a plan for someone else just as good, I have no interest in watching us trot someone else out there to cover the slot.
JPP's 7.5 fingers are  
Chris684 : 1/12/2017 11:55 am : link
such a non-issue. The guy proved he is a force this season even with the missing digits.

Many on BBI refuse to eat the crow they so deserve.

The Giants won't stand put if JPP leaves  
jcn56 : 1/12/2017 11:56 am : link
They've said they want to re-sign him, which means they know they need a DE, either him or a suitable replacement.

I don't think it'd be a draft pick, either (although I do expect them to select a DE). If JPP bolts, I'd look for them to sign another FA DE.
If I had to make a choice, I'd keep DRC and let JPP walk  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2017 11:56 am : link
and sign Hankins.
QB hurries per game?  
KWALL2 : 1/12/2017 11:57 am : link
Vernon and JPP were in the top 5 in the NFL.

Giants were 9th in the NFL as a team.

Both guys are excellent pass rushers.

The solution is to bring back JPP and find a 3rd player to help with the pass rush.
QB hurries in 2016 - ( New Window )
We will bring back neither  
ArcadeSlumlord : 1/12/2017 11:58 am : link
both are due for big contracts.
RE: DRC's snap count  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13322664 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
wasn't something that had to be done, part of it was a luxury with having Apple. He was banged up here and there, but he was also given time off because we were able to afford it.

I'm with Terps on DRC. I think he means more to this defense right now than JPP does (and I'm a huge fan). Our exit from the playoffs happened as soon as DRC went down. Unless they have a plan for someone else just as good, I have no interest in watching us trot someone else out there to cover the slot.


Whether true or not there appeared to be some rumblings going into the season the Giants were unhappy with DRC taking himself off the field the last few years. I think they really tried to keep him healthy. Good points about Apple though.
RE: If I had to make a choice, I'd keep DRC and let JPP walk  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13322668 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
and sign Hankins.


I'd let Hankins walk and keep JPP and DRC.
RE: QB hurries per game?  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13322673 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Vernon and JPP were in the top 5 in the NFL.

Giants were 9th in the NFL as a team.

Both guys are excellent pass rushers.

The solution is to bring back JPP and find a 3rd player to help with the pass rush. QB hurries in 2016 - ( New Window )


This is my thoughts too Kwall.
This is a good question  
Rjanyg : 1/12/2017 12:17 pm : link
JPP: Prototype DE, freak athlete, often injured, good vs. both the run and the pass, leader,

OV: small, tough as nails, high effort, great against the run, constant pressure, versatile, a true football player

Based on natural ability, I would say JPP is the better of the 2, but I think Vernon has become the better overall football player in that he has to give a higher effort to get production.

Both are relentless which is why I think JPP is a priority to sign over Hankins.

RE: RE: If I had to make a choice, I'd keep DRC and let JPP walk  
djstat : 1/12/2017 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13322679 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13322668 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


and sign Hankins.



I'd let Hankins walk and keep JPP and DRC.
Why keep JPP? He padded his stats against bad teams. Always has
RE: RE: RE: If I had to make a choice, I'd keep DRC and let JPP walk  
est1986 : 1/12/2017 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13322724 djstat said:
Quote:
In comment 13322679 Old Dirty Beckham said:


Quote:


In comment 13322668 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


and sign Hankins.



I'd let Hankins walk and keep JPP and DRC.

Why keep JPP? He padded his stats against bad teams. Always has


Have you ever watched JPP play?? Jesus are we forgetting he is a relentless monster great against run and pass?? Jesus that's a dumb thing to say. Someone tried to discredit OV earlier because 2 of his sacks came against the Browns. Joe fucking Thomas? Are you kidding me? The "padding stats against bad teams" argument sucks find another one.
I wonder how the team views his long term  
JonC : 1/12/2017 12:38 pm : link
given the injuries. We need to remember they're trying to gauge the value of his worth in future seasons, not the seasons he's already been paid for.

No slam dunk, imv. I wouldn't go multi years beyond 3-4. Wonder if the team feels he's worth more than they did before his injury when they offered him $12M per ... market has increased, but he's also two years older.
This is exactly why it might be worth franchising JPP again  
jcn56 : 1/12/2017 12:41 pm : link
He's definitely worth the money right now. But he's 28, and been injured a lot. Will he be worth it in 3 years?

Might be best to draft a DE, franchise him, and punt the decision to next season when a longer term deal will likely be enough of a concern to push his overall value down.
JPP is a load when healthy and motivated  
JerseyCityJoe : 1/12/2017 12:44 pm : link
However, this doesn't happen quite enough to warrant top tier guaranteed DE money in my view. If we can keep him at a good price great, if not time to move on.
RE: This is exactly why it might be worth franchising JPP again  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13322765 jcn56 said:
Quote:
He's definitely worth the money right now. But he's 28, and been injured a lot. Will he be worth it in 3 years?

Might be best to draft a DE, franchise him, and punt the decision to next season when a longer term deal will likely be enough of a concern to push his overall value down.


My only fear with the tag is the cap hit will be super high in an offseason where we need to also get atleast 1 starter on the OL and think about Hankins and others. I bet it could work, but it probably gets really dicey and I doubt they want to restructure Eli and jeopardize future cap.
RE: RE: This is exactly why it might be worth franchising JPP again  
est1986 : 1/12/2017 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13322782 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13322765 jcn56 said:


Quote:


He's definitely worth the money right now. But he's 28, and been injured a lot. Will he be worth it in 3 years?

Might be best to draft a DE, franchise him, and punt the decision to next season when a longer term deal will likely be enough of a concern to push his overall value down.



My only fear with the tag is the cap hit will be super high in an offseason where we need to also get atleast 1 starter on the OL and think about Hankins and others. I bet it could work, but it probably gets really dicey and I doubt they want to restructure Eli and jeopardize future cap.


32 million in cap plus another 15-20 after some cuts. Closer to 15 if DRC stays with us which we all hope he does.
Tag number shouldn't be an issue.
I have a hard time seeing JPP accepting  
Reb8thVA : 1/12/2017 12:54 pm : link
anything less than 4 years at $13 million. In some ways to me, that would be a home team discount because after last year, I think contracts will sky rocket again.

I think this year was a large enough sample for the team to discern what JPP can do with his hand and not. As for injury concerns, I don't believe there is any added risk of serious injury to the hand. I'd be more worried about his back.

I don't think you can fairly critique JPP's early performance this season without indicting the entire defense, which we can say at that juncture was less than stellar. From a pure stats perspective, JPP's obviously improved as the defense over all did. His 7 and a half sacks may have been 10 0r 11 by years end. Nevertheless he has also demonstrated a strong ability to defend against the run.

I'd make it a priority to sign JPP. I hat the idea of being forced to spend a valuable draft pick on a DE instead of addressing other problem areas. To me that is standing in place.


I'd decide what my line in the sand was. I'd go in with a strong offer. If he takes it excellent. If not move on to plan B
I  
Toth029 : 1/12/2017 12:58 pm : link
Prefer OV.

Go watch Week 1 vs. Dallas. Vernon has an awesome game vs. one of the best OL in the league. JPP struggles against Doug Free who is above average at best, and was getting one on one almost all of it. He's really good just not as good as OV.

I would be okay with not giving big money to him if they can keep Hankins and pay lesser money to a DE in the draft, if not draft one high.
OV is still young  
JonC : 1/12/2017 1:00 pm : link
A raw pass rusher in some respects, but a freakish athlete in his own right. Factor that in with the fact he's an ascending talent, and he can takeover games at times when healthy.
RE: RE: RE: This is exactly why it might be worth franchising JPP again  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13322793 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13322782 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13322765 jcn56 said:


Quote:


He's definitely worth the money right now. But he's 28, and been injured a lot. Will he be worth it in 3 years?

Might be best to draft a DE, franchise him, and punt the decision to next season when a longer term deal will likely be enough of a concern to push his overall value down.



My only fear with the tag is the cap hit will be super high in an offseason where we need to also get atleast 1 starter on the OL and think about Hankins and others. I bet it could work, but it probably gets really dicey and I doubt they want to restructure Eli and jeopardize future cap.



32 million in cap plus another 15-20 after some cuts. Closer to 15 if DRC stays with us which we all hope he does.
Tag number shouldn't be an issue.


Why? It will be over $16 million for DE's and the goal isn't just to use up all the cap possible. We had a ton roll over for 2016, every dollar counts when planning for the future.

$16 million tag for JPP + a modest $12-$14 million for Hankins and say a top FA Guard and there's that $30 million.

I'm guessing the Giants want to spend closer to $10 million per on JPP which leaves $6 million for another starter somewhere on this roster.
UConn  
JonC : 1/12/2017 1:07 pm : link
Agree with your bigger point, but figuring Hankins' cap hit will be half that figure.
JPP  
stretch234 : 1/12/2017 1:08 pm : link
I think he is better than OV - he does more. That does not mean he gets the same contract.

I keep saying you can get him for 4 years and 50M or so. You give him 33M guaranteed and he has the highest guaranteed money per year for a 4-3 DE while only a 4 year contract. 21M signing bonus gets him more than Vernon
RE: JPP is a load when healthy and motivated  
NJLCO : 1/12/2017 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13322771 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
However, this doesn't happen quite enough to warrant top tier guaranteed DE money in my view. If we can keep him at a good price great, if not time to move on.

I totally agree, when he wants to play he is one of the best however when he isn't motivated he is at best average. Went to see him a few years back in KC and he dogged on that field all day long. Finally went to the ground on a light hit and never returned. I will never forget it. Not sure he is worth the money at the end of the day. Hankins is worth the money and I don't want to see him leave. Snacks and Hankins in the middle for years to come and add BJ Goodson --we will stop the run!
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13322844 JonC said:
Quote:
Agree with your bigger point, but figuring Hankins' cap hit will be half that figure.


I meant $12-14$ million total ($6 or $7mm each) for Hankins and a FA Guard.
I have no doubt  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/12/2017 1:17 pm : link
that the Giants still view JPP as an elite talent at a premium position. The only question is how scared they are of the injuries.

I suspect they make him a very lucrative offer.

I also suspect the Giants will offer Hankins a bit less than he will make elsewhere.

Just a hunch. DE > DT
JPP struggled against Free?  
KWALL2 : 1/12/2017 1:22 pm : link
That is so far off the mark it amazing to me I just read that.

Go watch the 4th quarter and see who made the plays to force Dallas to punt. It was JPP with instant pressure on the QB.

He was excellent early and the year and it continued all year long.

The Giants defense was excellent early too. 2 of the best performances were Dallas and NO. Both in the first weeks of the season.



Even aftert taking the positions into account  
chuckydee9 : 1/12/2017 1:31 pm : link
JPP is much better at DE than Hankins will most likely be at DT. JPP is a stud.. Hankins can also be replaced easily.. as all is does is stop the run.. which is good against the cowboys but we have 14 other games to play and none of those 14 other teams can run on us even without Hankins as Snacks is there to dominate.. JPP on the other hand is great against the run and the pass..

Seriously talent evaluation on this forum is horrible..
JPP had an excellent year  
Kyle in NY : 1/12/2017 1:33 pm : link
KWALL constantly bangs the drum but he's also not wrong when he says his strong play went beyond just sack numbers. But it's also worth noting how well the defense played even when he was out. It took an injury to DRC and a superhuman QB to finally beat this D.

At age 29 going into next season, we need to be careful that we're paying the correct price for his performance going forward, not paying for what he's already done for us. I think DRC is the more valuable piece for this defense and Hankins is still an ascending player at age 24 (similar to OV). In order to make the money work, if it's a choice between an OV style deal for JPP, hanging onto DRC (if that's even a question), and signing Hankins to an extension, I think I'm picking DRC and Hankins first and thanking JPP for all he's done, but allowing him to get that money elsewhere that he's absolutely deserved.

Hopefully we can make all three work though...
RE: JPP had an excellent year  
gmenatlarge : 1/12/2017 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13322890 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
KWALL constantly bangs the drum but he's also not wrong when he says his strong play went beyond just sack numbers. But it's also worth noting how well the defense played even when he was out. It took an injury to DRC and a superhuman QB to finally beat this D.

At age 29 going into next season, we need to be careful that we're paying the correct price for his performance going forward, not paying for what he's already done for us. I think DRC is the more valuable piece for this defense and Hankins is still an ascending player at age 24 (similar to OV). In order to make the money work, if it's a choice between an OV style deal for JPP, hanging onto DRC (if that's even a question), and signing Hankins to an extension, I think I'm picking DRC and Hankins first and thanking JPP for all he's done, but allowing him to get that money elsewhere that he's absolutely deserved.

Hopefully we can make all three work though...

Definitely agree, but we can't get in a bidding war and overpay for JPP, gonna need to spend on a bona-fide LT and put Flowers somewhere he can function at least adequately.
RE: Saying JPP didn't perform vs top OL  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 1:41 pm : link
In comment 13322653 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Isn't a valid point. Especially when the only follow up to that is "3 sacks came vs CLE".

Only a simpleton rates a DE by sacks. How many times does that have to be explained?


Unfortunately for you, this board is rife with simpletons.
RE: JPP had an excellent year  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13322890 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
KWALL constantly bangs the drum but he's also not wrong when he says his strong play went beyond just sack numbers. But it's also worth noting how well the defense played even when he was out. It took an injury to DRC and a superhuman QB to finally beat this D.

At age 29 going into next season, we need to be careful that we're paying the correct price for his performance going forward, not paying for what he's already done for us. I think DRC is the more valuable piece for this defense and Hankins is still an ascending player at age 24 (similar to OV). In order to make the money work, if it's a choice between an OV style deal for JPP, hanging onto DRC (if that's even a question), and signing Hankins to an extension, I think I'm picking DRC and Hankins first and thanking JPP for all he's done, but allowing him to get that money elsewhere that he's absolutely deserved.

Hopefully we can make all three work though...


I agree, but you could argue JPP's presence would have made life easier for OV against GB. Okwara had one great game, but largely disappeared afterwards, but people here were set to name Okwara the next great DE for us.
.  
Kyle in NY : 1/12/2017 1:52 pm : link
David- Definitely agree, he was missed and maybe makes a play here or there that changes that game. I didn't see a whole lot from Okwara either to suggest you can just plug him in there next season as the starter and we're set. But at the very least he's a solid rotation piece combined with potentially another premium draft pick at DE and maybe a moderately priced veteran addition

gmenatlarge- I'm with you. Too many needs on offense, plus Hankins and fitting in DRC, to give JPP the same deal OV got. Just isn't feasible, as well as I thought he played this season.
JPP, when he's healthy and motivated  
Dinger : 1/12/2017 2:10 pm : link
has more natural ability than Vernon. He is fast strong and long. His arm length alone is freakish. Vernon, after only one year of watching him, seems self motivated hard working and is consistently making the effort. Its a tough call and one that would be tough to make.

That said I think JPP is going to get a lot of money for a team more in need of defensive help. I think the Giants will do what they did for Tuck and like Tuck JPP will go for the money AS HE SHOULD!

Now its well known that you want as many people who can rush the passer as possible and I feel like JR is going to 'reach' this year if he thinks one is available in the first round(SY, Anakim can speak to that far better). I won't be against it considering its out there that OL is seen as a weak position in this years draft AND that Jerry has had better results reaching for 1st round DE's than 1st round OL.....
RE: JPP, when he's healthy and motivated  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13322942 Dinger said:
Quote:
has more natural ability than Vernon. He is fast strong and long. His arm length alone is freakish. Vernon, after only one year of watching him, seems self motivated hard working and is consistently making the effort. Its a tough call and one that would be tough to make.

That said I think JPP is going to get a lot of money for a team more in need of defensive help. I think the Giants will do what they did for Tuck and like Tuck JPP will go for the money AS HE SHOULD!

Now its well known that you want as many people who can rush the passer as possible and I feel like JR is going to 'reach' this year if he thinks one is available in the first round(SY, Anakim can speak to that far better). I won't be against it considering its out there that OL is seen as a weak position in this years draft AND that Jerry has had better results reaching for 1st round DE's than 1st round OL.....


Don't think the TUck and JPP situations are comparable. Tuck got a 2 yr 5 millionish deal. The giants simply no longer wanted Justin.
I think it will be easier to keep Hankins though I hope  
Dinger : 1/12/2017 2:23 pm : link
they don't overpay. He's a good run stopper but as was witnessed in the GB game he generated no pass rush, so I don't think he's a must have. He's good but more easily replaced.
what's everyone's number  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 2:37 pm : link
on where JPP isn't worth more thank Hankins? Say Hankins will make $6.5 million per season; what would you be comfortable paying JPP instead?

I'm still at $10 million. At that price he's worth more thank Hankins, IMO. But when we get into that $12 million + range I think it becomes pretty equal or even advantage Hankins (due to what we can do with the other $6 million or so).
RE: Even aftert taking the positions into account  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/12/2017 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13322883 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
JPP is much better at DE than Hankins will most likely be at DT. JPP is a stud.. Hankins can also be replaced easily.. as all is does is stop the run.. which is good against the cowboys but we have 14 other games to play and none of those 14 other teams can run on us even without Hankins as Snacks is there to dominate.. JPP on the other hand is great against the run and the pass..

Seriously talent evaluation on this forum is horrible..


Yes, Hankins will be easier to replace than JPP. Great 2 way 4-3 DEs don't grow on trees.
JPP  
stretch234 : 1/12/2017 2:56 pm : link
Where was he unmotivated - I think he has been pretty motivated since he came back.

Tuck is so different because he was playing as a beat up 30 year old with the Giants. JPP just turned 28

What is this 'over pay number" that many seem to be thinking he is getting. What is the so called 'non-overpay number. Has this board been happy with any player who has signed a contract here?

Who is this LT they are supposed to be paying in FA commanding all this money?

I don't think Hankins would be as easy to replace as some think  
jcn56 : 1/12/2017 2:57 pm : link
I also don't think he's going to break the bank.

JPP on the other hand could command $15M or more. If that's the case, and you're committing to say, guaranteeing that over the next 4 years (at which point he'd be nearing 32 years old), would you feel comfortable making that call?

I think $12M is where I'd go for JPP, unless we're talking really short term or team friendly in terms of structure.
Uconn  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/12/2017 3:06 pm : link
I'd be shocked if Hankins got less than an avg of 8 per year.

I'd pay JPP up to 13-14 per year.
RE: Uconn  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13323015 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
I'd be shocked if Hankins got less than an avg of 8 per year.

I'd pay JPP up to 13-14 per year.


I don't. We tend to overrate our players and this could be an example of that since Snacks is such a monster. $8 million would be almost 30% more than what Linval Joseph got who, at that time, was our best DT. This is several years later, but 1, Does the market view Hankins like they did Linval and 2, will teams be scared to pay a guy that much who isn't the best DT on the team?

I don't know the answer to either question but my best guess tells me no to both.

And i'm not shitting on Hankins, I love him. But when it comes to contract talks playing next to Snacks will be one of the first things GM's will look at to determine worth.
Snacks is also around $9.25 mm per year  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 3:23 pm : link
and there's more DT's than I thought that will be unrestricted FA's this year. Unless Hankins is the first to strike a big money deal i'm guessing he settles for well under what Snacks got.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This is exactly why it might be worth franchising JPP again  
est1986 : 1/12/2017 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13322836 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13322793 est1986 said:


Quote:


In comment 13322782 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13322765 jcn56 said:


Quote:


He's definitely worth the money right now. But he's 28, and been injured a lot. Will he be worth it in 3 years?

Might be best to draft a DE, franchise him, and punt the decision to next season when a longer term deal will likely be enough of a concern to push his overall value down.



My only fear with the tag is the cap hit will be super high in an offseason where we need to also get atleast 1 starter on the OL and think about Hankins and others. I bet it could work, but it probably gets really dicey and I doubt they want to restructure Eli and jeopardize future cap.



32 million in cap plus another 15-20 after some cuts. Closer to 15 if DRC stays with us which we all hope he does.
Tag number shouldn't be an issue.



Why? It will be over $16 million for DE's and the goal isn't just to use up all the cap possible. We had a ton roll over for 2016, every dollar counts when planning for the future.

$16 million tag for JPP + a modest $12-$14 million for Hankins and say a top FA Guard and there's that $30 million.

I'm guessing the Giants want to spend closer to $10 million per on JPP which leaves $6 million for another starter somewhere on this roster.


12-14 million for Hankins that is nuts IMO, Harrison makes less than 9mil I think. And you franchise JPP totally thinking about the future. If you have the cap why not use it on a one year deal! key word, one year!
read it again  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 3:35 pm : link
I said for Hankins + a FA Guard...
RE: RE: Uconn  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13323031 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13323015 Old Dirty Beckham said:


Quote:


I'd be shocked if Hankins got less than an avg of 8 per year.

I'd pay JPP up to 13-14 per year.



I don't. We tend to overrate our players and this could be an example of that since Snacks is such a monster. $8 million would be almost 30% more than what Linval Joseph got who, at that time, was our best DT. This is several years later, but 1, Does the market view Hankins like they did Linval and 2, will teams be scared to pay a guy that much who isn't the best DT on the team?

I don't know the answer to either question but my best guess tells me no to both.

And i'm not shitting on Hankins, I love him. But when it comes to contract talks playing next to Snacks will be one of the first things GM's will look at to determine worth.


If I were a GM of another team, I wouldn't back up the Brinks truck for Hankins. He did very little last season when he was "the man". When he's playing off of Snacks and OV, he looks better. Very unproven commodity when he gets all the attention IMO.
David  
UConn4523 : 1/12/2017 5:04 pm : link
that is more or less my take as well. Right or wrong we tend to overrate our own players, not because of homerism, but we see our players the most and know what they are worth to us.

For that reason I think Hankings will get a middle of the road contract for a DT, maybe a bit more depending on how quickly he signs a deal.
If I have to choose, its,Vernon  
PatersonPlank : 1/12/2017 6:30 pm : link
But I would do everything possible to sign both.
RE: RE: I don't agree JPP is necessarily more important than Hankins  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/12/2017 7:20 pm : link
In comment 13322574 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
In comment 13322566 Bold Ruler said:


Quote:


JPP has had one year where he played pretty much the entire year. I don't think it's make or break in bringing him back. I think having a run stuffing interior is more critical.



Interesting take. JPP is going to get paid more than Hankins by virtue of pass rushing being more valued than interior DL. I think we can get by with a rotation of Bromley/Thomas/FAVET(or draft pick) next to snacks.

Conversely if we lose JPP I don't see any possible way to replace his production next year.

And we could probably get by without you, but who's counting? Hankins is the more important target given the context of price.
RE: How is this a discussion?  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/12/2017 7:26 pm : link
In comment 13322602 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.

I forgot the Terps bias against good players (is there anyone else here who actively dislikes both JPP and Beckham?). I change my mind - give JPP whatever he wants just because.
RE: How is this a discussion?  
djm : 1/12/2017 7:27 pm : link
In comment 13322602 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.


Well you don't love Vernon so you must loath JPP. Actually we already knew that.

What does JPP's finger issue have to do with anything? I think it's clear the guy can play with his hand issue. Just a worthless post.
RE: RE: How is this a discussion?  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 7:29 pm : link
In comment 13323232 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13322602 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.




Well you don't love Vernon so you must loath JPP. Actually we already knew that.

What does JPP's finger issue have to do with anything? I think it's clear the guy can play with his hand issue. Just a worthless post.


I don't remember saying I don't like Vernon. I like Vernon. He plays hard and is obviously willing to play hurt. I just don't think he's worth the contract. Sorry you can't make the distinction.
RE: The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
djm : 1/12/2017 7:30 pm : link
In comment 13322633 Go Terps said:
Quote:
While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).


This I tend to agree with. Kind of... I think gun to my head I'm keeping Hankins over jpp. DRC better not be going anywhere.
RE: The defense struggled all season to generate a conventional pass rush  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/12/2017 7:32 pm : link
In comment 13322633 Go Terps said:
Quote:
While OV and JPP were strong in run support, the crucial components of the defense all season were the Snacks/Hankins combo in the middle and the excellent secondary.

If I'm prioritizing our defensive FAs, it's Hankins and DRC well before JPP. Consider also that we have a viable replacement for JPP already in house with Okwara. We don't have such options already in place should Hankins and/or DRC leave.

I know the first instinct is to spend money on the offense, but I think the defense has to be the priority and it starts with Hankins and DRC (or replacements of similar quality).

Is DRC a free agent? Did I miss something?
How is Okwara a viable replacement?  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 7:34 pm : link
He had one good game, and then disappeared. He has a lot to prove before we deem him even a potential starter. I can see him being a rotation guy, but come on.
KWALL2  
Marty866b : 1/12/2017 7:37 pm : link
I recall you being extremely high on Odighizuwa before the draft two years ago and now you say that in addition to JPP and OV we need a 3rd defensive end who can rush the passer. Have you given up on OO? He sure looks like a non player in his short time so far. Maybe the hip surgeries have taken its toll? Very little quickness or power to his game.
RE: RE: RE: How is this a discussion?  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/12/2017 7:37 pm : link
In comment 13323233 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13323232 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13322602 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Vernon has all 10 fingers. Start there.




Well you don't love Vernon so you must loath JPP. Actually we already knew that.

What does JPP's finger issue have to do with anything? I think it's clear the guy can play with his hand issue. Just a worthless post.



I don't remember saying I don't like Vernon. I like Vernon. He plays hard and is obviously willing to play hurt. I just don't think he's worth the contract. Sorry you can't make the distinction.

Exactly what type of team would you build? Clearly no one is worth their contract to you and you want a revolving door of rookie QBs. Do you actually want to root for a winning team, or just have a Scrooge McDuck amount of cap room that you can exercise your fetish to?
I said you don't love Vernon  
djm : 1/12/2017 7:40 pm : link
And you don't. Which is fine.

This is directed at the few on here that make shit up. What's with this "when healthy and motivated" crap about jpp? Seriously? What the fuck? JPP had one off year, 2013, when he was playing through an injury that sidelines everyone, including JJ Watt.

When has jpp not played hard? When? Stop making shit up! Stop copying what idiots parrot and go by what your eyes tell you. Jpp is one of the best DE's in the NFL and his whole game is predicated on effort and hustle.

Stop being ignorant.
Correction  
djm : 1/12/2017 7:40 pm : link
Stop being lazy.
RE: How is Okwara a viable replacement?  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 7:42 pm : link
In comment 13323238 David in LA said:
Quote:
He had one good game, and then disappeared. He has a lot to prove before we deem him even a potential starter. I can see him being a rotation guy, but come on.


The defense continued to play very well with Okwara after JPP went down. Actually, the defense played its best football of the season with Okwara, not JPP, at that position. That's not to say that Okwara is the better player, but the defense functioned at its highest level with him starting. That has to be taken into account when you are looking at JPP for huge cap space vs. Okwara for peanuts.

Okwara doesn't have to be better than JPP to be the better option. The defense functioned at its best with him starting. That is known.

And while DRC is not a free agent it appears he is a prime candidate to be a cap casualty. If he is, that position MUST be filled by an equal player...we learned that lesson in Green Bay.

As for Hankins, I think his quality is elevated by Snacks and vice versa. He also figures to cost much less than JPP.

I think there is a lot more to this than simply "DEs are harder to get than DTs".
The defense played like dog shit against the packers  
djm : 1/12/2017 7:46 pm : link
IT most definitely did NOT play its best football of the season when jpp went down. And what does that even mean anyway?

Don't over think this. Maybe they are better off signing hank and spending jpp money elsewhere but make no mistake the defense is better with jpp in the lineup over Romeo fucking okwara. Cmon dude... you're killing me.
Does correlation equate to causation?  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 7:49 pm : link
Is a 4 game sample size enough of a body of work to say "we found a viable replacement?" Our defense functioned fine without him, but that's also a huge byproduct of having the best secondary in the league IMO. I thought JPP was sorely missed against Philly and Green Bay. We beat Detroit with a hampered Stafford, there were some throws that he just flat out missed against us. We'll probably never agree on this, but IMO you're incredibly dismissive with JPP, and that has to do with us viewing things through different lenses and philosophy.
RE: I said you don't love Vernon  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 7:51 pm : link
In comment 13323247 djm said:
Quote:
And you don't. Which is fine.

This is directed at the few on here that make shit up. What's with this "when healthy and motivated" crap about jpp? Seriously? What the fuck? JPP had one off year, 2013, when he was playing through an injury that sidelines everyone, including JJ Watt.

When has jpp not played hard? When? Stop making shit up! Stop copying what idiots parrot and go by what your eyes tell you. Jpp is one of the best DE's in the NFL and his whole game is predicated on effort and hustle.

Stop being ignorant.


Interesting that JJ Watt gets lauded for being a tirelessly hard worker, but JPP doesn't when they had down years with the same injury. Don't get where the effort talk comes into play, when a lot of JPP's tackles comes from backside pursuit.
I'm also curious  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 7:52 pm : link
what has Hankins accomplished without playing next to an all pro?
RE: I'm also curious  
Go Terps : 1/12/2017 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13323259 David in LA said:
Quote:
what has Hankins accomplished without playing next to an all pro?


It's a fair point, but we know that he and Snacks together were the backbone of the entire team this year.

If Hankins walks and he is not replaced by someone as good or better (is such a player available?) the defense will be significantly worse next year all over the field.

The DT spot next to Snacks is absolutely crucial if we want the defense to approach the same level next year.
I'd like to see Hankins brought back at a reasonable deal  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 8:32 pm : link
but god forbid something happens to Snacks, if we overpay, Hankins' contract will look really really bad. You have to play players what they are worth on their own IMO.
The defense was better w JPP  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/12/2017 8:34 pm : link
OV's production slipped when he went down. Vernon healthy will be interesting but the jury is out on whether his contract was a wise investment. By all accounts a great teammate and tireless worker but not sure about him

Hankins and Snacks were great and JPP was coming on. In Miami he played w Suh and Cameron Wake. He was fucking held a lot so I'm inbit torn as I think knhe got screwed some but he needs to step it up. He's paid like a Von Miller. With all the talent around him I expected more.

Again no one knows how bad his wrist was but JPP looked damn good for a dude w his hand. I imagine he will be better next year
Matty, good points  
David in LA : 1/12/2017 8:37 pm : link
but I think we're overlooking how contracts are not immune to inflation. Von Miller money is not goign to look like Von Miller money in a few years.
RE: The defense was better w JPP  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/12/2017 10:45 pm : link
In comment 13323294 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
OV's production slipped when he went down. Vernon healthy will be interesting but the jury is out on whether his contract was a wise investment. By all accounts a great teammate and tireless worker but not sure about him

Hankins and Snacks were great and JPP was coming on. In Miami he played w Suh and Cameron Wake. He was fucking held a lot so I'm inbit torn as I think knhe got screwed some but he needs to step it up. He's paid like a Von Miller. With all the talent around him I expected more.

Again no one knows how bad his wrist was but JPP looked damn good for a dude w his hand. I imagine he will be better next year

Yes, free agents who earn all-pro honors their first year with a new team are a dime a dozen. You guys are unbelievable.

Maybe your expectations were more flawed than his performance.
RE: RE: The defense was better w JPP  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/12/2017 11:43 pm : link
In comment 13323396 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13323294 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


OV's production slipped when he went down. Vernon healthy will be interesting but the jury is out on whether his contract was a wise investment. By all accounts a great teammate and tireless worker but not sure about him

Hankins and Snacks were great and JPP was coming on. In Miami he played w Suh and Cameron Wake. He was fucking held a lot so I'm inbit torn as I think knhe got screwed some but he needs to step it up. He's paid like a Von Miller. With all the talent around him I expected more.

Again no one knows how bad his wrist was but JPP looked damn good for a dude w his hand. I imagine he will be better next year


Yes, free agents who earn all-pro honors their first year with a new team are a dime a dozen. You guys are unbelievable.

Maybe your expectations were more flawed than his performance.


He played in Miami next to great players. Now he was on a line where his play was again aided by the players around him IMO. i expected more sacks. He seemed to play very well. I don't know how bad he was hurt which I posited may have affected him in all fairness.

I guess paying more than JJ Watt tinged my expectations. For that cap value you need more. Why can't have that opinion? because it bothers some dope here on BBI? Sorry my opinion got your estrogen level up.
The pass rush is the Holy Grail of every team in the league.  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 1/13/2017 12:09 am : link
If you take away JPP or Vernon, then you are hurting the one who remains. They can only double team one of the ends.

With JPP, Vernon and Snacks on the same line, and with talented blitzers DRC and Collins, this defense could be memorable.

If we have to overpay someone, overpaying for the pass rush is the most justified. The Giants have to face Dak twice a year, and Rodgers still stands in the way of going to the Super Bowl.

There might be consequences several years down the road for overspending now, but the clock is ticking on Eli. We don't know how long it will take to find his replacement, but I don't think we'll be as lucky as Dallas. Forced to draft Dak when the guy they really wanted was snatched right ahead of him, and then forced to play the guy when their vet QB went down.
UConn  
JonC : 1/13/2017 9:10 am : link
my bad, was work distracted and trying to (poorly) multi-task yesterday.
RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 1/13/2017 9:12 am : link
In comment 13323571 JonC said:
Quote:
my bad, was work distracted and trying to (poorly) multi-task yesterday.


All good.
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