"Something has to change, whether it be the offensive coordinator or the way they call and design plays. What they did Year 1 with McAdoo handling head coaching and playcalling duties didn't work. There were even internal complaints the offense was too vanilla and opposing defenses knew what was coming, especially in the run game. The receivers also didn't think there was enough creativity to get them open consistently."
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But I really think he struggled to balance both this season. I'd love to see them bring in a vet OC/play caller, but it would have to be someone already comfortable with this offense, bc a whole new system isn't necessarily wise at this stage of Eli's career
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In comment 13325835 Britt in VA said:
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not sure why he takes so much sh-t, here.
What did he do, exactly?
I have no idea what he does, nor do I think anybody else here does beyond wild speculation. So between Sullivan and McAdoo, only one of them designed the offense and called the plays. Gun to your head, you have to assign blame, who are you picking?
You don't think you're just a little biased? I get that knocking McAdoo helps fit your incredibly pro-TC narrative, but this is getting silly at this point.
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In comment 13325968 joeinpa said:
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Is not going to give up play calling.
Maybe not, but if I'm his boss he needs to explain his plan to fix a broken offense.
Admittedly, there are issues, but the personnel wasn't much different in '16 than '15. Why the diminished production? Is it the playcalling? The game planning?
What does McAdoo plan to change in order to fix things?
IMO, in all likelihood this puts enormous pressure on Sullivan.
Yes and DAM it please Explain why we didn't Win more than 11 games TOO. That Dammed Slacker McAdoo! Release the Hounds on him Smithers.
The point isn't to fire anyone. The point is to ensure things are fixed and that there is a clear path of accountability. Maybe McAdoo supports Sullivan and the two come back next year and do a fantastic job.
But I wonder what the odds are the Giants can finish 11-5 (or better) next year if the offense doesn't improve?
-oversee and delegate directives from HC to position coaches re: player development, film study, error corrections
-collect input from position coaches and forward to Mac for gameplanning
-scrub and pair down all input from position coaches, players and assist Mac in creation of gameplan
-assist in creation and scheduling of practice plans
- help manage media obligations and monitor what position coaches are/aren't saying
Just some ideas.
As 'trel says...end of the day...it's Mac's schemes and play calling
I want to remind you that McCarthy and Arod have had their bad years too -- and it may be worth noting that McAdoo has shown he has the ability to run and call plays for a high-powered offense too. Maybe it's a little too soon to be hacking away at him.
Also look at the difference in Spags defense with a few players added in the right places - a bunch of you all were ready to run him out of town last year after one year on the job too - now he's a frikken hero.
-oversee and delegate directives from HC to position coaches re: player development, film study, error corrections
-collect input from position coaches and forward to Mac for gameplanning
-scrub and pair down all input from position coaches, players and assist Mac in creation of gameplan
-assist in creation and scheduling of practice plans
- help manage media obligations and monitor what position coaches are/aren't saying
Just some ideas.
As 'trel says...end of the day...it's Mac's schemes and play calling
So the OC spot is just a bullshit admin position now?
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There really is no need for the Giants to restructure. If the Giants want Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie back, the price ($7 million in real money, $9 million in cap space) is fair. He's a veteran, starting-caliber cornerback, even if the Giants used him just 66 percent of the defensive snaps this season and mostly in the slot. That's probably even below market value.
He is NOW a slot corner, you don't pay slot corners that kind
of money. You can call him a starter if you want, I think
they need to restructure his deal. How many teams have a slot
corner with a 9 mill. cap hit, just asking.
Here's the answer, not very many!
They don't have all this extra money this year.
And if he doesn't restructure? Are you going to releass him? There is no reason whatsoever for him to restructure. And, also, restructure meams paying a player more upfront money and pushing money further down the line. Hence, restructuring is bad long term but helps you out in the short term. Why do the Giants need more cap room now?
Finally, a slot CB is sometimes MORE important than an outside corner. He is worth every penny.
Agreed. He can also play on the outside in a pinch. And our LBs have a lot of problems in coverage. A good slot corner can to some extent cover for that problem on some plays.
I want to remind you that McCarthy and Arod have had their bad years too -- and it may be worth noting that McAdoo has shown he has the ability to run and call plays for a high-powered offense too. Maybe it's a little too soon to be hacking away at him.
Also look at the difference in Spags defense with a few players added in the right places - a bunch of you all were ready to run him out of town last year after one year on the job too - now he's a frikken hero.
McAdoo had a great year as HC.
He just needs a real OC who aligns with him philosophically but can think for himself.
Not a Coughlin holdover bureaucrat yes man.
Instead you get a very average reciever who can not get any separation on his own, and could is not very physical.
The old Cruz with Beckham and the Rookie would have been a good receiving threat.
They gambled that Donnell would improve and be the big target for Eli. once again Donnell failed them.
Gambled on Jennings having a good year left in him. Again fail.
Gambled on the offensive line with newhouse and jerry training offseason in some camp that they would finally learn how to block.
Gambled on the Flowers at LT experiment even brought in a new OL coach to help...Fail
Gambles on Josh Brown to tell the truth which he did not. fail
All this and he still won 11 games? I would say we have a hell of a Coach. Maybe see what he can do and rate him in three years?
Look I just wrote Ranaans next article for him.
I want to remind you that McCarthy and Arod have had their bad years too -- and it may be worth noting that McAdoo has shown he has the ability to run and call plays for a high-powered offense too. Maybe it's a little too soon to be hacking away at him.
Also look at the difference in Spags defense with a few players added in the right places - a bunch of you all were ready to run him out of town last year after one year on the job too - now he's a frikken hero.
Agreed.
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In comment 13325845 robbieballs2003 said:
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There is nothing to suggest that Sullivan was pushed on McAdoo. That was pure speculation.
That is just not true. It has always been widely reported that the Mara family loves Sullivan, and he was a TC guy, going back to Jax and even had the Army connections. Remember that he left here only for a promotion in TB, and was never fired here.
Your theory is that a new HC, with his pick of any offensive coordinator in the world not employed in that position, decided the best guy was someone who spent a career following TC and who had a great relationship with the owners and upper management. Could that be true? Ehh.......but is it likely? I don't think so.
I am saying the production of the offense falls squarely on McAdoo. People trying to blame Sullivan, as Britt has explained, is all speculation. Even if Sullivan was pushed on MacAdoo, he still puts his fingerprints all over the offense. No matter which way it is sliced, McAdoo is responsible.
No argument there. You cannot get hired as an offensive minded HC and then blame the OC.
They going to blame.
I for one, thinks McAdoo did a great job understanding his teams strength (Defense) and weakness (Offense), and adjusting the way he coaches to fit that.
Only on BBI is he now an issue.
Add talent, suddenly he can coach pretty fucking good, huh?
We're doing the same thing, only this time it's the offense.
Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying but it sounds like you are claiming the OC should not get blamed for the offense?
I for one, thinks McAdoo did a great job understanding his teams strength (Defense) and weakness (Offense), and adjusting the way he coaches to fit that.
Only on BBI is he now an issue.
+1
Also, Sullivan was only OC for two years, so he had no more experience than Ben in running an offense. Why not bring in a veteran WCO guy? Plenty of them around.
I think his was a case of Mara overreaching. In the name of helping Ben, he might have handicapped him.
That said, I don't think Sullivan was the number one problem. Hard to run any offense with a crap OL.
Add talent, suddenly he can coach pretty fucking good, huh?
Big difference is that the offense has a franchise QB and the most explosive player in the game in OBJ. The defense had nobody last year. So the two situations are not really as comparable as you are making them.
Finally, a slot CB is sometimes MORE important than an outside corner. He is worth every penny.
Especially with the Giants, Robbie. For the last 15-20 years the Giants have been killed by TEs & RBs from the slot. DRC was doing a very good job before he got hurt. Not having played football at a high level, slot corner just seems harder to play than outside CB. The receiver can run laterally in 2 different directions.
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not sure why he takes so much sh-t, here.
Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying but it sounds like you are claiming the OC should not get blamed for the offense?
No, in most cases he shouldn't. He's not blocking, running , throwing or catching
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In comment 13325835 Britt in VA said:
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not sure why he takes so much sh-t, here.
What did he do, exactly?
I would love to know since its a major part of the coaching staff and its clear that he was not a fit with the head coach from every thing that we have seen from the outside.
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Last year everybody had something to say about how awful spagnuolo is. He couldn't coach.
Add talent, suddenly he can coach pretty fucking good, huh?
Big difference is that the offense has a franchise QB and the most explosive player in the game in OBJ. The defense had nobody last year. So the two situations are not really as comparable as you are making them.
It's not that big a difference when you remember that a WR is only as good as his QB, and a QB depends intensely on the 5 guys in front of him holding up.
Football's not that complicated, but it's definitely more complicated than "we have a QB and a WR, we should score points.".
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-work closely with team doctors on player health and availability
-oversee and delegate directives from HC to position coaches re: player development, film study, error corrections
-collect input from position coaches and forward to Mac for gameplanning
-scrub and pair down all input from position coaches, players and assist Mac in creation of gameplan
-assist in creation and scheduling of practice plans
- help manage media obligations and monitor what position coaches are/aren't saying
Just some ideas.
As 'trel says...end of the day...it's Mac's schemes and play calling
So the OC spot is just a bullshit admin position now?
Exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Probably the reason why Philbin decided to go elsewhere.
Poses another question: What OC's operating under a HC that calls the plays have gone on to become HC's?
Pederson, Childress, Shurmur under Reid
Philbin under McCarthy
Payton under Fassel but I don't think that applies
Of the examples there are, how many of those guys were never actually already decipels of the system, like Sullivan?
Seems to me that Mac wants to recreate the classic WC system that Reid/McCarthy have perpetuated but never brought with and hasn't obtained the understudies. He needed an OC to help with the workload, and Sully is a good soldier.
Hopefully an 11 win rookie system built some clout and some young, talented WC apprentices will now want the job.
Pure speculation of course, but it's logical to me.
If they want to try and sign both JPP and Hankins, they may release him. Tell me how many teams have a slot corner with
a 9 mill. cap hit. He's not worth every penny, gets dinged up too. I like the guy, but I look out what's best for the organization, first and foremost. He has two years left on his deal too, keep in mind.
Who cares what they call his position? Apple is relatively cheap and in a way offsets DRC's contract. DRC is worth every penny - see what happened in Green Bay when Wade got on the field. If you don't have three starting corners, you are screwed against better teams. In effect, you want to rob Peter to pay Paul, when there is enough to pay both - Secondary and Line.
The 0-Line play was scraggly--- I know I'm alone, but I believe that Most of that can improve with THESE PLayers in Place. They have a core of 3-5 very young guys, and they had some injuries and not enough help from the rest of the offense... you either need to pass the hell out of the ball from their base set, or run effectively to give Offensive Linemen an anchor for their game.
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In comment 13325868 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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In comment 13325845 robbieballs2003 said:
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There is nothing to suggest that Sullivan was pushed on McAdoo. That was pure speculation.
That is just not true. It has always been widely reported that the Mara family loves Sullivan, and he was a TC guy, going back to Jax and even had the Army connections. Remember that he left here only for a promotion in TB, and was never fired here.
Your theory is that a new HC, with his pick of any offensive coordinator in the world not employed in that position, decided the best guy was someone who spent a career following TC and who had a great relationship with the owners and upper management. Could that be true? Ehh.......but is it likely? I don't think so.
I am saying the production of the offense falls squarely on McAdoo. People trying to blame Sullivan, as Britt has explained, is all speculation. Even if Sullivan was pushed on MacAdoo, he still puts his fingerprints all over the offense. No matter which way it is sliced, McAdoo is responsible.
No argument there. You cannot get hired as an offensive minded HC and then blame the OC.
Coughlin was an offensive minded HC and fired two different OCs during his time with the Giants. I guess that doesn't count?
He is NOW a slot corner, you don't pay slot corners that kind
of money. You can call him a starter if you want, I think
they need to restructure his deal. How many teams have a slot
corner with a 9 mill. cap hit, just asking.
Here's the answer, not very many!
They don't have all this extra money this year.
DRC can start for a bunch of teams in the league & earn that kind of money. If he was a FA, he might get more on a 1-2 year deal. He still has the talent to start.
I'm not so sure who's better ouside... Apple or DRC, but they're probably not that far apart. But inside DRC is probably much better. So being able to play at a reasonably high level at 2 positions would only add to his value, not decrease it.
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In comment 13326009 mako J said:
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-work closely with team doctors on player health and availability
-oversee and delegate directives from HC to position coaches re: player development, film study, error corrections
-collect input from position coaches and forward to Mac for gameplanning
-scrub and pair down all input from position coaches, players and assist Mac in creation of gameplan
-assist in creation and scheduling of practice plans
- help manage media obligations and monitor what position coaches are/aren't saying
Just some ideas.
As 'trel says...end of the day...it's Mac's schemes and play calling
So the OC spot is just a bullshit admin position now?
Exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Probably the reason why Philbin decided to go elsewhere.
Poses another question: What OC's operating under a HC that calls the plays have gone on to become HC's?
Pederson, Childress, Shurmur under Reid
Philbin under McCarthy
Payton under Fassel but I don't think that applies
Of the examples there are, how many of those guys were never actually already decipels of the system, like Sullivan?
Seems to me that Mac wants to recreate the classic WC system that Reid/McCarthy have perpetuated but never brought with and hasn't obtained the understudies. He needed an OC to help with the workload, and Sully is a good soldier.
Hopefully an 11 win rookie system built some clout and some young, talented WC apprentices will now want the job.
Pure speculation of course, but it's logical to me.
I think Sullivan is a guy the organization likes for whatever reason and was kept on for "continuity" purposes. I just don't see any value he brings to the table at this point.
During the Coughlin/Gilbride years, there were always arguments about whose offense it was and who was responsible for what. At a minimum, you know Gilbride had a footprint on the offense. I don't see any of that with Sullivan.
I'd much rather go with a young up and comer w a similar philosophy to Ben Mcadoo.
Not having a more comprehensive run game with Eli under center is inexcusable and has nothing to do with talent.
Not carrying a FB is inexcusable and has nothing to do with talent.
And play design? There was a great film breakdown of our offense during the year showing numerous plays with NO ONE going over the middle (thus making it easy for the S to key on Beckham with nothing else to worry about). How can you not build in routes over the middle? Ridiculous - nothing to do with talent.
This stuff is why I'm personally far from sold on BM. I see some things with his scheme that are hard to believe.
This team could use some quality pros to show the idiots how to conduct themselves.
what does your game film look like?
Sometimes stuff like this is whining or finger-pointing. In this case, it's just the acknowledgement of reality.
Now that the offense performed poorly, Sullivan is the scapegoat.
Not to worry. ownership will have Sullivan walk the plank.
Not having a more comprehensive run game with Eli under center is inexcusable and has nothing to do with talent.
Not carrying a FB is inexcusable and has nothing to do with talent.
And play design? There was a great film breakdown of our offense during the year showing numerous plays with NO ONE going over the middle (thus making it easy for the S to key on Beckham with nothing else to worry about). How can you not build in routes over the middle? Ridiculous - nothing to do with talent.
This stuff is why I'm personally far from sold on BM. I see some things with his scheme that are hard to believe.
I think it all went downhill when the Anthony Davis trade failed to be imminent.
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In comment 13326050 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13326009 mako J said:
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-work closely with team doctors on player health and availability
-oversee and delegate directives from HC to position coaches re: player development, film study, error corrections
-collect input from position coaches and forward to Mac for gameplanning
-scrub and pair down all input from position coaches, players and assist Mac in creation of gameplan
-assist in creation and scheduling of practice plans
- help manage media obligations and monitor what position coaches are/aren't saying
Just some ideas.
As 'trel says...end of the day...it's Mac's schemes and play calling
So the OC spot is just a bullshit admin position now?
Exactly what I was thinking when I posted. Probably the reason why Philbin decided to go elsewhere.
Poses another question: What OC's operating under a HC that calls the plays have gone on to become HC's?
Pederson, Childress, Shurmur under Reid
Philbin under McCarthy
Payton under Fassel but I don't think that applies
Of the examples there are, how many of those guys were never actually already decipels of the system, like Sullivan?
Seems to me that Mac wants to recreate the classic WC system that Reid/McCarthy have perpetuated but never brought with and hasn't obtained the understudies. He needed an OC to help with the workload, and Sully is a good soldier.
Hopefully an 11 win rookie system built some clout and some young, talented WC apprentices will now want the job.
Pure speculation of course, but it's logical to me.
I think Sullivan is a guy the organization likes for whatever reason and was kept on for "continuity" purposes. I just don't see any value he brings to the table at this point.
During the Coughlin/Gilbride years, there were always arguments about whose offense it was and who was responsible for what. At a minimum, you know Gilbride had a footprint on the offense. I don't see any of that with Sullivan.
I'd much rather go with a young up and comer w a similar philosophy to Ben Mcadoo.
I'm with ya Will. I personally like the schemes and running game from the Shannahan/Kubiak branch more than the Pass heavy Reid/McCarthy branch. I need to study Kubiak's and Kyle's position coaches...
This. If this happens, we go to a Superbowl with our defense.
Because our guys can't simply line up and beat the men across from them, that's all the more reason to come up with creative schemes to make their jobs easier.
But, the offensive players were often nowhere to be found, including OB. How many times did we hear "Wake Up" by RATM playing in the stadium during games and it was apropos.
McAdoo's got to avoid the tunnel vision calling plays, the players need to wake up during games and make plays, and the front office needs to finish the right side of the OL, and get some weapons around Eli.
Matt Lafleur
Anybody have any insights on him?