-KP hopeful he can play today, Hornacek deemed him "doubtful" last night. If he's borderline then he shouldn't play.
"When asked to respond to that particular line in the article, Anthony said: If thats the case than thats whats coming from that side I guess its a conversation we should have. If they feel like my time in New York is over I guess thats a conversation we should have.
During Anthonys post-game interview session with reporters on Sunday, Anthony was informed twice that the article was not written by Jackson but instead a close friend. Anthony, though, had no trouble connecting the dots, suggesting that it is more than a coincidence that the writer who criticized him in the piece has a relationship with the Knicks team president.
Listen, Anthony said, if thats what they feelif thats whats coming from that side thats whats coming from that side. I havent thought once about that to be honest with you. I hear it. I hear all the rhetoric thats going on out there and I still come to work every day and play and bust my ass and try not to worry about it.
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Barkley is probably too busy counting money from his TNT deal to get into it with Oak at 53 years old.
I don't think there is any question that Rosen "speaks for" Phil. Now if his most recent comments are "from Phil" or simply Rosen speaking out of turn, that might be questionable. But I suspect even the strongest of Phil defenders would acknowledge Charley Rosen is Phil's "mouth piece".
Melo is clearly aging and his window is coming to a close. They need Melo to save the Knicks from themselves and realize if he wants a shot at the playoffs, let alone a title, he needs to move now.
Knowing this franchise though, Dolan will fire Jackson and make Melo the President/GM and Point Guard.
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Jonah Ballow
@jonahballow
If @kporzee can go today, hell move to the 5 & Melo to the 4 per Jeff Hornacek. #NYKvsATL #Knicks
I like it. Most dynamic scoring front court in the league. Will they be able to defend anyone though.
There's no sugar coating that, but I do like the idea of Noah captaining a 2nd unit group with Jennings and a bunch of guys that will make hard cut and defend.
There are a lot of teams between us and one of those elite picks right now, though not as many as it seems. We're currently the #12 pick, but the only teams that are totally "gone" are the botton 3 in the East -- Philly, Miami, and BK (and there is some chance that Philly finishes strong with Simmons and solving the C logjam). ORL is 1.5 games behind us. The whole bottom of the West is within 5 games of us, with several much closer. Lots of teams out West could finish decently -- SAC, NO, MN all have superstars, Dal should get Dirk back, and the Lakers, Suns, and Nuggets have talent.
But that's okay. The guy I want is OG Anunoby.
I think he should sit even when he is ready. There is literally nothing to play for right now. Why risk it?
This x1000
There's a reason Olympic Melo is amazing and NBA Melo can't be traded. He's a dynamic offensive PF. What current starting PF can guard him with any regularity?
melo should embrace being the 4, milsap plays the 4 full time and they have the same body...
and here is a crazy thought start jenningd and let him be the distributor and rose can just concentrate on scoring, let baker be the point off the bench..
if you cant stop trams might as well try to outscore them...
bench would be baker, holiday kuz oquinn noah
Jonah Ballow Retweeted Jonah Ballow
I should clarify that lineup is only a possibility for today. Still waiting on KPs availability & starters to be announced.
Jonah Ballow Retweeted Jonah Ballow
I should clarify that lineup is only a possibility for today. Still waiting on KPs availability & starters to be announced.
i think he is saying it is a possibility if kp is available..
if he isnt noah would obviously start
it is why i didnt mind the knicks going for it, because they are going to add a good player regardless of where they draft, just have to be smart
Cavs arent playing well right now. Warriors will have some pep in their step. Take the Warriors.
But that's okay. The guy I want is OG Anunoby.
OG is still really really raw for my tastes. Upside is obviously high but I still think he needs another year or two in school ala oladipo. If he develops a handle like Oladipo did his junior year he can be a top 10 pick the following year.
Right now the guy I want is dwayne bacon. He's like Jaylen Brown if Brown was a knockdown shooter. Really like his upside. I'm suspecting Malik monk won't make it past the 5th pick at this rate.
Melo is starting too, remember.
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negates that.
Melo is starting too, remember.
At least Melo's always in the building at tip off.
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In comment 13328332 bceagle05 said:
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negates that.
Melo is starting too, remember.
At least Melo's always in the building at tip off.
Haha, good point. Sometimes though he purposely checks out... haha
Come on MAN!!!
Come on MAN!!!
Rose has a big fucking mouth about coaching for a guy who didnt even bother to show up for a game this week.
Sucks
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17 in the first half including a buzzer beater 3
Sucks
lol, and you call my act old....haha
I bet the Knicks to win today. Hope Melo goes for 50!
Can we please get this guy back??
Same here.
On the plus side, after the game he can tell the media that they need to play better defense and give pointers to the coach about it.
the charge call was horrendous, knicks go up 4 there, chsnged the game
At least they were competitive
At least they were competitive
They lost to a team without a center and arguably their best player (or most irreplaceable one). Their center today was 6'8 and the backup was Kris FUCKING humphries.
I hear ya.
God I'd kill to have Tim hardaway and Schroder to pair with KP over whatever the fuck the hodgepodge of misfits we have.
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As much as I want to be upset, I'm pro-tanking at this point.
I hear ya.
God I'd kill to have Tim hardaway and Schroder to pair with KP over whatever the fuck the hodgepodge of misfits we have.
schroeder i agree with, hardaway is still a chucker who gets hot every once in awhile
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As much as I want to be upset, I'm pro-tanking at this point.
I hear ya.
God I'd kill to have Tim hardaway and Schroder to pair with KP over whatever the fuck the hodgepodge of misfits we have.
Well, our best shot at landing that kind of talent is to move up in the draft.
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In comment 13328685 Giantology said:
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As much as I want to be upset, I'm pro-tanking at this point.
I hear ya.
God I'd kill to have Tim hardaway and Schroder to pair with KP over whatever the fuck the hodgepodge of misfits we have.
schroeder i agree with, hardaway is still a chucker who gets hot every once in awhile
He's been more consistent albeit under one of the best coaches in the league. Still only 24 and is probably the 4th best player on the current 4 seed team in the east for what it's worth. Wasn't hard to predict it being a move that would work out for the Hawks.
Schroder is levels ahead of Derrick Rose at age 23.
Last two games he was 5-19 for 10 points combined.
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In comment 13328685 Giantology said:
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As much as I want to be upset, I'm pro-tanking at this point.
I hear ya.
God I'd kill to have Tim hardaway and Schroder to pair with KP over whatever the fuck the hodgepodge of misfits we have.
schroeder i agree with, hardaway is still a chucker who gets hot every once in awhile
That was a bad trade by Jackson. He used that pick on Grant and we all know how the organization felt about Grant. Other than KP falling in his lap and trading for Willy on draft night, I haven't been impressed with these moves like Early and Antetokounmpo. He talked about grabbing Larkin in that silly trade because of his upside and getting those 2nd round picks. Larkin, the Greek Freak brother and Early are out of the league with Grant to soon follow.
Last two games he was 5-19 for 10 points combined.
And over the last 89 games he's been loads more efficient than he has been in his first 151 games with the Knicks.
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not.
Last two games he was 5-19 for 10 points combined.
And over the last 89 games he's been loads more efficient than he has been in his first 151 games with the Knicks.
You're confused- Dep wasn't talking about Hardaway. He was defending Rose. He is all the way in on that sinking ship, so no way can Schroeder be better!
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not.
Last two games he was 5-19 for 10 points combined.
And over the last 89 games he's been loads more efficient than he has been in his first 151 games with the Knicks.
Different teams, different situations.
it sucks but that is what this season has come to
it sucks but that is what this season has come to
OMG Youve turned into me!
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when the knicks lose i am happy, if they win i am indifferent...
it sucks but that is what this season has come to
OMG Youve turned into me!
i hate ot but at this point it just sucks watching this team play...
good offensively just can not play defense..
BLOW IT UP.
BLOW IT UP.
I'm with you, but Shved is no longer in the league. :)
If this is how this team is run, then we're in big trouble.
No don't worry I think that's how all of us are feeling these days haha.
Melo, Kuz O'Quinn for Porter, mahinimi, Nicholson? Ha.
If this is how this team is run, then we're in big trouble.
the explanation is Phil/Mills are buffoons.
And Collangelo will get credit for rescuing them from the process
Considering how toxic things have gotten, it's hard to believe that it's just a coincidence.
Following
Anthony DonahueVerified account
@AnthonyMSG
Now to Courtney Lee's Instagram. Good thing Phil has changed the culture...
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Are about to win on the road. For all the shitting on the sixers this season they've had a similar win % as the Knicks when Embiid plays. Oh and he doesn't play back to backs. Oh and he's on a minutes restriction. Oh and Simmons hasn't played yet. Oh and they have the Lakers pick. Oh and they have 2 future kings picks. Oh and I'll shut the fuck up now.
And Collangelo will get credit for rescuing them from the process
Those in Philly know what's up though. Especially Embiid. Don't think anyone has a bigger infatuation with Sam Hinkie than Embiid himself. The collangelo move was a necessary evil though. He was needed to give the appearance to future FAs that they aren't trying to just tank. Maybe it wasn't needed but Hinkie wasn't bringing anything from a talent evaluation standpoint and they have more assets than anyone could ever want now.
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Can't wait.
Cavs arent playing well right now. Warriors will have some pep in their step. Take the Warriors.
Hope you bet as much as I did.
exactly what you need to do when you get a bunch of superstars together...
exactly what you need to do when you get a bunch of superstars together...
If you have the talent everything else will work itself out eventually.
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they have good passers at every position and every single one of them has bought in and are unselfish...
exactly what you need to do when you get a bunch of superstars together...
If you have the talent everything else will work itself out eventually.
but you still need someone to take a lesser role then they are used to..
wade said this, the heat really struggled when the heat first came together because all 3 were looking for their oppurtunities and they did not turn it around until he and bosh deferred to lebron...
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In comment 13329022 nygiants16 said:
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they have good passers at every position and every single one of them has bought in and are unselfish...
exactly what you need to do when you get a bunch of superstars together...
If you have the talent everything else will work itself out eventually.
but you still need someone to take a lesser role then they are used to..
wade said this, the heat really struggled when the heat first came together because all 3 were looking for their oppurtunities and they did not turn it around until he and bosh deferred to lebron...
Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time, Wade is a top 5 all time SG and bosh was a perennial all star. When did a team have more talent than that one? The Bulls? The KG Celtics? The current Warriors?It worked out eventually for them. My point is simply a collection of that much talent on an NBA roster has never failed. The Warriors gave 4 guys who will be on HoF ballots in their primes. Probably the greatest collection of talent ever on one team.
Lebron is the 2nd best player of all time, Wade is a top 5 all time SG and bosh was a perennial all star. When did a team have more talent than that one? The Bulls? The KG Celtics? The current Warriors?It worked out eventually for them. My point is simply a collection of that much talent on an NBA roster has never failed. The Warriors gave 4 guys who will be on HoF ballots in their primes. Probably the greatest collection of talent ever on one team.
They are all perfect fits for each other. Steph, Klay and KD are all time great shooters who are all willing to make the extra pass and draymond is always looking to set up his teammates first and foremost. It's a plus that he can run an offense out of the post compared to traditional PGs/PFs so everyone else can move around the perimeter.
And Deej KM averaged like 13 ppg his final year lol (unless that was a joke).
watching some of these prospects makes me want the knicks to be in the lottery more than in the playoffs...
but we all know whats going to happen, knicks will win a couple in a row and be in the 7th or 8th seed by the all star break and then knicks will make a stupid trade to help win now and get the 8th seed and swept
Sure, lots. After all, what havoc has he really wrought? Are you crying over the breakup of the Tyson Chandler Knicks?
I have my problems with Phil's time here. I think he has been unwilling to do the necessary rebuild. That only really started hurting us this season with the Rose and Noah deals. But even those we can survive without too much pain so long as we dont hear logic like "well there is no rebuilding when Noah and Melo are owed 45 million a year, so we might as well sign X and try to do some damage" (I fucking hate the phrase "do some damage").
At the end of the day, if the Phil era ended now, it would be remembered for shitty basketball and shitty coaching, but also KP and maybe Willy, and for the first time in forever we own our picks. All in not terrible.
Its no secret that Ive been a longtime friend and confidant of Phil Jackson, Rosen wrote as an introduction. Nearly 34 years to be precise. Although some of my opinions may be congruent with Phils, they are strictly my own. For better or for worse.
i am actually surprised phil resigned him, i thiught he would of told him sogn woth chicago and work a sign and trade...
I think phil saw the pick owed and got nervous if he rebuilt he would give up a top 3 pick..
that is where the knicks screwed up and phil is doing the wxact same thing
1) Malik Monk (probably won't fall too far though)
2) Jonathan Isaac
3) Jason Tatum
4) Dwayne Bacon
5) Lauri Markonnen
it is not a disaster, when he took over there was absolutely nothing the knicks could hang their hat on for the future..
now they have some flexibility, draft picks and a young stud to build around..
Young Nugget Bullyball Dunkonyoface Melo + D'Antoni 3ball smarter Melo = Legendary Scorer roughly on the Dirk/Kobe level maybe even greater
He was a very good player, generally around #10-#15 in the league in his prime with maybe 2 seasons in the Top 5 as a player.
But it just sucks that it seems like by the time he adjusted his game to a more efficient style, his athleticism near the rim deteriorated. He's still going to end up having a "less fun to watch" Dominique Wilkins type of career, but it could have been so much more.
That's just flowerly language.
What Phil did was get the team's star player to resign. Did Phil "believe in" Melo? What does that even mean, and what is your evidence other than the fact that Melo was resigned? I think Phil didnt like the idea of Melo leaving for no return, and he was right to resign him.
If anything the problem isnt that he "believed in" Melo but rather that he "believed" Melo. I.e. he could have possible held out against the no trade clause, or at least this offseason pushed to see if it was a bluff by not bringing in vets.
I like Isaac in that range, reminds me a bit of Bosh. Draft looks pretty loaded top 15 or so.
I like Isaac in that range, reminds me a bit of Bosh. Draft looks pretty loaded top 15 or so.
He's gotta trademark the phrase ILOVEMARKANNEN before he enters the league lol.
Only issue is the fit between KP and him as they both have similar strengths/weaknesses but get the best talent and worry about fit later.
Not wishing it on any player, but the potential buyers list for Rose or Melo gets bigger when you start imagining season ending injuries.
Alas, my gut tells me that this will be like last year, and the whole league will sit out the trade deadline because in their hearts, everyone believe that it is GSW-CLE again.
1) Malik Monk (probably won't fall too far though)
2) Jonathan Isaac
3) Jason Tatum
4) Dwayne Bacon
5) Lauri Markonnen
I think Markannen, Monk, and Isaac are top 8 picks, possibly 10 at the latest. We need the Knicks to lose some fucking games. Sit KP until he's absolutely 100% healthy and trade Rose/Melo.
if you ask lebron to choose between love and melo, who do you think he is pocking? knicks can throw in jennings, give them a back up point
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want, falling in the 8-14 range:
1) Malik Monk (probably won't fall too far though)
2) Jonathan Isaac
3) Jason Tatum
4) Dwayne Bacon
5) Lauri Markonnen
I think Markannen, Monk, and Isaac are top 8 picks, possibly 10 at the latest. We need the Knicks to lose some fucking games. Sit KP until he's absolutely 100% healthy and trade Rose/Melo.
my eye is on miles bridges, i thibk he can turn into a more athletic draymond green
They'd be idiots to do that. Hurts them defensively and on the boards. Scoring is all Melo brings, and with Lebron and Irving, he won't have as many touches.
This guy makes a case that it could work for Cleveland. I have no idea how Love would fit with KP. You can't really play them both at the 4. I do suppose there are some nights you could play Love at the 5.
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There will be some very good players still available after the top 10, though.
There will be some very good players still available after the top 10, though.
If I had the 1st pick, I'd take Ball. I don't even mean that as a Knicks fan. If I had the first pick with any team, I'd take Ball.
Dont know Swanigan, but teams dont want the next Z-Bo. They want one athletic rim protecting center and then a stretch 4. Traditional bigs are devalued all around the league.
He's a beast. Just so much bigger than everyone in college. I am sure though they see he cant bully people in the NBA like he does in college.
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But they're not going to pick high enough to get him. Probably goes in the top 3.
There will be some very good players still available after the top 10, though.
If I had the 1st pick, I'd take Ball. I don't even mean that as a Knicks fan. If I had the first pick with any team, I'd take Ball.
If you have a top 3 pick this year you won't have to worry about your PG situation for a decade +.
D'Aaron Fox is my choice as number 1.
Toronto says no.
Dennis smith has the athleticism of Rose but has some semblance of basketball IQ and defensive ability.
Dennis smith has the athleticism of Rose but has some semblance of basketball IQ and defensive ability.
Hey now, Rose was actually a pretty good defender before injuries. Now, well.... not good.
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Has a lot of James Harden offensively and is much better defensively.
Dennis smith has the athleticism of Rose but has some semblance of basketball IQ and defensive ability.
Hey now, Rose was actually a pretty good defender before injuries. Now, well.... not good.
Was referring to now. Derrick Rose was pretty good at a lot of things before the injuries.
Forgot about fox as well. If there were teams that had question marks at PG before this draft there really shouldn't be that many left after this one. Haven't seen the French guy play but he's a top 10 in a lot of mocks.
If he IS really he'll bent on only going to LAC or Cleveland than he is simply not going to get traded. If after this "talk" or whatever he will open up his mind about other cities than I don't see why Toronto wouldn't be near the top of the list as possible destinations.
Unless of course his city preference is a priority over team quality than we can simply work something out with the Lakers.
Ellenson, Harris, Baynes for Melo and Thomas. There is the Knicks wet dream.
Again, I have no issue with it, he's earned that right by having a very good career, but let's be realistic here. Melo is not going to move his family to Toronto.
ugh, no.
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opens his list to include Chicago too, to play with Wade.
ugh, no.
Obviously it wouldn't happen, but it would be AWESOME.
knicks could not sign him as a free agent without getting rid of some of the players that were involved in the trade..
they would of had to get rid of both gallo and chandler anyway to make it work
no they would of had to dump them to sign melo..
remember knicks had zero cap space after the melo trade, they had to amnesty billups and dump turiaf to make it work to sign chandler at 15 million..
knicks had zero room for melo, it is a common misconception saying knicks could of just signed melo
It might've but overall it was a net plus for the Knicks.
Again, I'm agreeing with you that he isn't calculating his best way to win a championship ala Kevin Durant. But he doesn't seem like someone who is content with losing for as much as he may not actually care about winning. He's been here for 3 seasons and this team is still as good/bad as it was as when phil got here and on top of all the shit phil says and does that pisses him off I can't imagine he'd like to be in a place that clearly wants him out and isn't going to win anytime soon.
present them to melo and see what he says..hopefully he agrees to something that benefits both
present them to melo and see what he says..hopefully he agrees to something that benefits both
Yeah I had that same thought. Melo is gonna share with his teammates whatever is told to him - if he's told they're gonna start fielding some offers, it'll just be a dark cloud hanging over the team until a deal is done. Better to just line up a couple options and see if you can sell him on one of them. Do I have faith in the Knicks to act so sensibly? Not really.
what knicks trade has been leaked?
heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks
knicks: dragic
heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks
knicks: dragic
how does that help the knicks? While Dragic is a nice player - is he really an answer to what you are trying to accomplish?
phil had the chandler deal on the table for 2 weeks and then he showed it to melo before pulling the trigger
yes it does, i forgot to add in crawford
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clippers: melo
heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks
knicks: dragic
how does that help the knicks? While Dragic is a nice player - is he really an answer to what you are trying to accomplish?
dragic had his best year as a pro under hornacek..
it then allows you to shop rose for assets and you then have a stop gap at point guard for the time being
A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.
He would instantly help a lot of teams though.
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but regardless, we would then trade them for other assets. Either way, him forcing the trade hurt the knicks and hurt our chances of building a winner.
no they would of had to dump them to sign melo..
remember knicks had zero cap space after the melo trade, they had to amnesty billups and dump turiaf to make it work to sign chandler at 15 million..
knicks had zero room for melo, it is a common misconception saying knicks could of just signed melo
How sure are you? None of Gallo, Moz, or Chandler were making that much the next season (and Felton was making just 7.5 million). I think all 3 were affordable, but then we couldnt have signed TC maybe. Or we could have signed TC if we didnt trade for Billups and then buy him out (and they we would have had the buyout for Amare). Or maybe we could have fit everyone except one of Chandler or Felton.
I dont think it is that clear that Melo (sans Chauncey) wouldnt have fit with the pieces we traded for him.
On the bright side, Derrick Rose showed up by game time, so there is some positive momentum.
Hornacek is beginning to lose this team
Hornacek's rationale for moving Lee to the second unit made sense (more touches) but he needs to show more balls with his players. Defensive effort should result in playing time/lack of playing time. Forget this season for a second, the players are getting away with whatever they want including guys like Rose making it sound like it's Hornacek's "fault" the defensive effort sucks. Rose/Jennings in particular aren't under contract for next year, if they don't put in defensive effort on a play, pull their asses. If it means shitty Sasha playing so be it. If Melo doesn't want to play defense then N'Dour can get some run. At the very least try and change the culture a bit.
A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.
He would instantly help a lot of teams though.
Atlanta just traded Korver to Cleveland and got a first round pick in the deal. They got a first for a one-dimensional shooter.
If you think Rose will help as much as you claim I would think the Knicks could get a future first from Cleveland as well.
they sign and traded lee for randolph azubuki and turiaf, turiaf and randolph had 2 year deals...
they signed felton who took up the rest of their cap space..
now say they do not trade for melo..
wilson chandler was a free agent he is gone..
you then have to make room, you have to get rid of turiaf and felton at minimum..
dont forget curry would of still been on the books as well..
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z5vvdd8
Flip Jamal Crawford to another team for a 1st rd pick.
Buy out Derrick Rose- no one is trading for him and even if they'd want to his salary is very hard to find a match.
Try to trade Courtney Lee for a 1st round pick.
Then tank your way to hopefully a top 5-7 pick and have the picks from the Crawford and Lee trades. Try to sign some young up and coming players this offseason and then next years you'll also most likely be in the lottery. Ideally you'll have a top PG prospect, KP and some young players to build around along with cap flexibility. The path is there, make it happen Phil. Real Knicks fans would respect this plan.
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and he could help a TON of teams, but there is nothing of value teams will give up for him. Again, no one in the east will give up assests to lose to Cleveland. Also, he is an expiring, so giving up picks and young players is just not going to happen.
A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.
He would instantly help a lot of teams though.
Atlanta just traded Korver to Cleveland and got a first round pick in the deal. They got a first for a one-dimensional shooter.
If you think Rose will help as much as you claim I would think the Knicks could get a future first from Cleveland as well.
Its more about contract than it is player. Korver is making a little more than 5 million this year. Rose is making over 21 million.
No. This is completely false. Derrick Rose can help a shit load of teams and make them better. However, who in the east is going to want him? They arent beating cleveland anyways. So why give up anything substantial for him?
No one is giving up good, young talent for a bloated contract who will probably leave at the end of the year anyways. Like I said, maybe a SA, maybe a Memphis would take him if they can match salaries and Rose accepts coming off the bench.
Good point but the kicker is around 3.5 mill (15%) I believe. You could include Pierce or other salary filler to make it work. The framework is there.
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due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
No. This is completely false. Derrick Rose can help a shit load of teams and make them better. However, who in the east is going to want him? They arent beating cleveland anyways. So why give up anything substantial for him?
No one is giving up good, young talent for a bloated contract who will probably leave at the end of the year anyways. Like I said, maybe a SA, maybe a Memphis would take him if they can match salaries and Rose accepts coming off the bench.
#1 Why are only East teams a consideration?
#2 You keep suggesting Rose is really good, a difference maker. If that's the case then why wouldn't every team close to Cleveland/GSW be interested? He's either really good or he's not. Teams don't just stick their heads in the sand and say "meh, we can't beat those teams". Why is there reported interest in Dragic? Reggie Jackson?
getting melo will at least give them a shot at gs..
Heavily protected/ late 1sts or even future 1sts? I could definitely see it. Crawford was 6th man of the year and Lee fits a need many teams have.
Also, looking at the current standing, the Knicks are currently 12th in the lottery. They really aren't that far off from jumping into the top 5. Check out the website NBA tankathon- great site.
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In comment 13329587 DanMetroMan said:
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due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
No. This is completely false. Derrick Rose can help a shit load of teams and make them better. However, who in the east is going to want him? They arent beating cleveland anyways. So why give up anything substantial for him?
No one is giving up good, young talent for a bloated contract who will probably leave at the end of the year anyways. Like I said, maybe a SA, maybe a Memphis would take him if they can match salaries and Rose accepts coming off the bench.
#1 Why are only East teams a consideration?
#2 You keep suggesting Rose is really good, a difference maker. If that's the case then why wouldn't every team close to Cleveland/GSW be interested? He's either really good or he's not. Teams don't just stick their heads in the sand and say "meh, we can't beat those teams". Why is there reported interest in Dragic? Reggie Jackson?
i think because dragic and jackson are sogned long term they are more valuable..
in todays growing salary cap a free agent to be is going to cost you a lot more finacially then guys already on long contracts
Wheres the fit? You trade Rose for Joseph and Sullinger - you still have to add 5 million to the trade to make it work for Toronto. They have a lot of young assets they arent giving up and that means you have to include Ross, and now you are gutting their team.
Boston with Thomas, Bradley, Smart - the need for him is minimized and they should be looking at a Butler more so than Rose.
And even as high I am on Rose - adding him to either squad still doesnt make them as good as Cleveland.
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In comment 13329587 DanMetroMan said:
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due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
No. This is completely false. Derrick Rose can help a shit load of teams and make them better. However, who in the east is going to want him? They arent beating cleveland anyways. So why give up anything substantial for him?
No one is giving up good, young talent for a bloated contract who will probably leave at the end of the year anyways. Like I said, maybe a SA, maybe a Memphis would take him if they can match salaries and Rose accepts coming off the bench.
#1 Why are only East teams a consideration?
#2 You keep suggesting Rose is really good, a difference maker. If that's the case then why wouldn't every team close to Cleveland/GSW be interested? He's either really good or he's not. Teams don't just stick their heads in the sand and say "meh, we can't beat those teams". Why is there reported interest in Dragic? Reggie Jackson?
Rose is the complete antithesis of what the Spurs/Pops system is predicated on. I would be stunned if they would be interested even for free.
This is the Rose fallacy. He's back! Any the Knicks got him for literally nothing of value! And he has no positive trade value if we want to move him!
The truth is that he's not back. Right now he's a #3 guard. He shouldnt start for a good team, but he could headline a 2nd unit and play some 2 guard with the starters. If it wasnt so hard to match his contract in a trade, there would be a limited market for him.
Korver BTW brought back a #1 in like 3 or 4 years. And I'd probably rather have him than Rose as a bench player -- Korver plays a very heady game and spaces the floor. He fits into more lineups.
I am pretty stunned that they didnt suspend him. That's on Phil. It was a massive mistake.
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due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
This is the Rose fallacy. He's back! Any the Knicks got him for literally nothing of value! And he has no positive trade value if we want to move him!
The truth is that he's not back. Right now he's a #3 guard. He shouldnt start for a good team, but he could headline a 2nd unit and play some 2 guard with the starters. If it wasnt so hard to match his contract in a trade, there would be a limited market for him.
Korver BTW brought back a #1 in like 3 or 4 years. And I'd probably rather have him than Rose as a bench player -- Korver plays a very heady game and spaces the floor. He fits into more lineups.
But as much as you hate Rose you have to admit he can still take over a game and win one for you. Korver can't.
#1 Why are only East teams a consideration?
#2 You keep suggesting Rose is really good, a difference maker. If that's the case then why wouldn't every team close to Cleveland/GSW be interested? He's either really good or he's not. Teams don't just stick their heads in the sand and say "meh, we can't beat those teams". Why is there reported interest in Dragic? Reggie Jackson?
1. I just said the east because of no one is beating cleveland, so that eliminates half the league. I mentioned SA and Memphis. But none of the bottom teams are trading for Rose because why would they?
2. Dragic and Jackson both have 4 years left, so they cant leave after the year. Rose being a FA means why would anyone give up anything of value just to lose him at the end of the year?
If Rose were to make only 5 million this year - he would be traded about 2 weeks ago. A lot of teams cant take on his contract.
Rose has no value because of his contract, not because of his game.
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suspending Rose was a very bad look. The fine suggests they realize it was a very poor decision (200K fine is pretty unusual) but it sent a bad message to a team that looks disjointed/lazy. He should have been suspended and the public message should have been "enough is enough, guys who work their asses off and want to be here will play regardless of salary and numbers".
I am pretty stunned that they didnt suspend him. That's on Phil. It was a massive mistake.
The size of the fine suggests they agree it was a big deal.. and yet didn't have the guts to suspend him. It helps add to the perception the Knicks are the last remaining circus in MSG. If there is anything the GM/coach can do for a mediocre team it's lay down the law, set the effort expectations. If a Rose, or a Melo or even a KP (not that he's ever done this) lack for effort, let it show up in their playing time. let them sulk, who cares?
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value is one thing, zero value is another. If Rose is a top PG in the NBA a borderline contender is giving up a future #1 (and more) for him in a league where Korver just brought back a #1. There is a difference between huge value and very little value. I am suggesting Rose has close to none because he's an awful defender, a weirdo and openly still thinks he's a superstar. Guess we shall see before the deadline/kind of deal he signs.
Rose has no value because of his contract, not because of his game.
Actually this is completely wrong. Rose's contract is why he has ANY value right now. It's an expiring deal. Those always have value.
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In comment 13329587 DanMetroMan said:
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due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
This is the Rose fallacy. He's back! Any the Knicks got him for literally nothing of value! And he has no positive trade value if we want to move him!
The truth is that he's not back. Right now he's a #3 guard. He shouldnt start for a good team, but he could headline a 2nd unit and play some 2 guard with the starters. If it wasnt so hard to match his contract in a trade, there would be a limited market for him.
Korver BTW brought back a #1 in like 3 or 4 years. And I'd probably rather have him than Rose as a bench player -- Korver plays a very heady game and spaces the floor. He fits into more lineups.
But as much as you hate Rose you have to admit he can still take over a game and win one for you. Korver can't.
Me calling Rose a #3 guard isnt hating on him.
Rose "can take over" a game and win it for you in the same sense that JR Smith can do it. If you're looking to those guys to do that with any regularity, you probably suck. Why would Cleveland want JR to take over when they have three amazing offensive superstars?
Korver is a better defender and can nail down 3s. That's super valuable in the NBA. Korver just standing in the corner affects a defense.
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#1 Why are only East teams a consideration?
#2 You keep suggesting Rose is really good, a difference maker. If that's the case then why wouldn't every team close to Cleveland/GSW be interested? He's either really good or he's not. Teams don't just stick their heads in the sand and say "meh, we can't beat those teams". Why is there reported interest in Dragic? Reggie Jackson?
1. I just said the east because of no one is beating cleveland, so that eliminates half the league. I mentioned SA and Memphis. But none of the bottom teams are trading for Rose because why would they?
2. Dragic and Jackson both have 4 years left, so they cant leave after the year. Rose being a FA means why would anyone give up anything of value just to lose him at the end of the year?
Because this season matters too. If Rose is that good, if he's "back" then he helps a team compete for the NBA title and they can retain him (which they would surely want to do if he's that good/back). The cavs may be heavy favorites in the east but any "contender" adding a difference maker has a shot to knock off the top teams. Raptors with prime Rose can't knock off Cleveland? Spurs with prime Derrick Rose? Heck, even Utah.
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In comment 13329602 DanMetroMan said:
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suspending Rose was a very bad look. The fine suggests they realize it was a very poor decision (200K fine is pretty unusual) but it sent a bad message to a team that looks disjointed/lazy. He should have been suspended and the public message should have been "enough is enough, guys who work their asses off and want to be here will play regardless of salary and numbers".
I am pretty stunned that they didnt suspend him. That's on Phil. It was a massive mistake.
The size of the fine suggests they agree it was a big deal.. and yet didn't have the guts to suspend him. It helps add to the perception the Knicks are the last remaining circus in MSG. If there is anything the GM/coach can do for a mediocre team it's lay down the law, set the effort expectations. If a Rose, or a Melo or even a KP (not that he's ever done this) lack for effort, let it show up in their playing time. let them sulk, who cares?
Great points all around. It truly is remarkable he wasn't suspended for it. I think it warranted a multi game suspension and possibly even being cut. You can't go AWOL for a game, it's simply unheard of and contributes to the continually circus at MSG.
Actually this is completely wrong. Rose's contract is why he has ANY value right now. It's an expiring deal. Those always have value.
To who though? If you are going to trade Rose just to trade him, then yes you can trade him to a bottom feeder team like say Philly, Brooklyn, Dallas, or whoever. But you are not going to get anything substantial back from them. Maybe a 2nd rounder (and I am not saying thats a bad idea). But if you are looking for assets - you arent going to get them. No one is going to give up young, raw talent for an expiring deal. No one is going to give up a top 10 pick for a guy who is bolting at the end of the year.
Now if you feel like you are a PG away, lets say like Philly, you rather take on Jackson or Dragic, due to the fact they have 3 years left after this year.
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In comment 13329628 DanMetroMan said:
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value is one thing, zero value is another. If Rose is a top PG in the NBA a borderline contender is giving up a future #1 (and more) for him in a league where Korver just brought back a #1. There is a difference between huge value and very little value. I am suggesting Rose has close to none because he's an awful defender, a weirdo and openly still thinks he's a superstar. Guess we shall see before the deadline/kind of deal he signs.
Rose has no value because of his contract, not because of his game.
Actually this is completely wrong. Rose's contract is why he has ANY value right now. It's an expiring deal. Those always have value.
Except the whole league has a ton of cap space this offseason, and to trade for Rose you need to have almost $20 million in salaries to move back for him, and it is tough finding dead weight on best teams' books (go see for yourself). So I think dep's point about Rose's contract hurting him has a lot of merit.
Because this season matters too. If Rose is that good, if he's "back" then he helps a team compete for the NBA title and they can retain him (which they would surely want to do if he's that good/back). The cavs may be heavy favorites in the east but any "contender" adding a difference maker has a shot to knock off the top teams. Raptors with prime Rose can't knock off Cleveland? Spurs with prime Derrick Rose? Heck, even Utah.
Ok, but what teams who think are close to beating either GS or cleveland will take that risk? You say Toronto/Boston. Well Toronto cant match salaries. So they are out. You say Boston? Maybe, but they would be smarter going after Butler.
And who is saying this is prime Rose? This 17-4-4 with 46% Rose. He is not going to make a team like Utah a finals type team. I already said a team like SA should be interested. Make Mills a shooter off the bench and let Rose run some screen and rolls with LA/Gasol (rose and gasol had a lot of success doing that together). Now Rose's defense could be a problem in SA - but with better defenders and better coaches surrounding him - he could be hopefully passable.
WE AGREE!!!!
haha.
Just because he wants the contract, doesnt mean he will get it. So what he thinks he is a max player? Shit, there are a ton of max players in the NBA that are anything but them.
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In comment 13329636 dep026 said:
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In comment 13329628 DanMetroMan said:
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value is one thing, zero value is another. If Rose is a top PG in the NBA a borderline contender is giving up a future #1 (and more) for him in a league where Korver just brought back a #1. There is a difference between huge value and very little value. I am suggesting Rose has close to none because he's an awful defender, a weirdo and openly still thinks he's a superstar. Guess we shall see before the deadline/kind of deal he signs.
Rose has no value because of his contract, not because of his game.
Actually this is completely wrong. Rose's contract is why he has ANY value right now. It's an expiring deal. Those always have value.
Except the whole league has a ton of cap space this offseason, and to trade for Rose you need to have almost $20 million in salaries to move back for him, and it is tough finding dead weight on best teams' books (go see for yourself). So I think dep's point about Rose's contract hurting him has a lot of merit.
No. You don't. If you're under the cap you can absorb his contract into your cap for this season. You don't have to match salaries if the team has space to absorb his deal.
And thats why Detroit will continue to suck for years on end. If the give KCP a max deal. That means Drummond will have one. Jackson and Harris will have big deals and now you have a team stuck in purgatory. What an AWFUL situation that is. Thats worse the Knicks right now.
the knicks would have a much better record if they could just get stops..
Melo at least is cost controlled for 1 more year at a decent number and can start on playoff teams. Paying rose $15M a year this year (and possibly more the following years) to be a 6th man isn't ideal for many teams especially when the top teams have to worry about "super-maxing" their stars starting this offseason.
What way?
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I assume you feel the same way about Melo?
Melo at least is cost controlled for 1 more year at a decent number and can start on playoff teams. Paying rose $15M a year this year (and possibly more the following years) to be a 6th man isn't ideal for many teams especially when the top teams have to worry about "super-maxing" their stars starting this offseason.
And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
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will get a max deal in Detroit.
And thats why Detroit will continue to suck for years on end. If the give KCP a max deal. That means Drummond will have one. Jackson and Harris will have big deals and now you have a team stuck in purgatory. What an AWFUL situation that is. Thats worse the Knicks right now.
Wow that's really sad. I was starting to get high on Detroit for the way SVG was getting decent players at low cost and cuz of Drummond. But it's getting ridiculous now. Drummond has regressed this year (I really thought he could be a 20 and 15 player whilst being a defensive force) and there aren't many good shooters on a team that relies on shooting. I give SVG a lot of credit for being a good coach and making smart moves as a GM but it looks like Detroit has hit that ceiling.
And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
If in a vacuum you'd rather have Rose than Melo, there is really no point in discussing further. You're blinded by Melo hate. Melo is a much better player than Rose.
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They are similar players. I'd rather have Rose. Both guys have one high end talent(shooting vs driving) and do little else to help the team win. Personally, I'd rather have the guy that takes the ball to the rim more.
If in a vacuum you'd rather have Rose than Melo, there is really no point in discussing further. You're blinded by Melo hate. Melo is a much better player than Rose.
What does Melo do, other than shoot, that is so much better than Rose?
They both are below average defenders, neither pass the ball well, Melo doesnt rebound as well as he should. And since Melo isnt shooting as well - his value takes a hit.
Neither are top 50 players in the NBA at this point.
You would take that but how many playoff teams need that? If you look at any team that's not Cleveland/GS the need is more often than not a shooter. No playoff team needs a TO prone PG. Melo is much more of a plug in play option as a starter than rose. Not at all saying Melo would be a difference maker for these teams but he's certainly a better fit in the starting lineup of pretty much any playoff team in the trade market.
People keep talking about Melo like he played 5 years ago. He's nowhere near that guy anymore.
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Let me put it this way. Melo can still score from anywhere on the floor, AND if you move him to PF his defense gets better.
Rose can't shoot and can't defend no matter where you put him.
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In comment 13329671 EricNY33 said:
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Let me put it this way. Melo can still score from anywhere on the floor, AND if you move him to PF his defense gets better.
Rose can't shoot and can't defend no matter where you put him.
Fair points, but Melo at the 4 means no shot blocker near the rim, and he still wont be a good post defender.
The question is can Melo still score from anywhere on the court efficiently?
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They are similar players. I'd rather have Rose. Both guys have one high end talent(shooting vs driving) and do little else to help the team win. Personally, I'd rather have the guy that takes the ball to the rim more.
You would take that but how many playoff teams need that? If you look at any team that's not Cleveland/GS the need is more often than not a shooter. No playoff team needs a TO prone PG. Melo is much more of a plug in play option as a starter than rose. Not at all saying Melo would be a difference maker for these teams but he's certainly a better fit in the starting lineup of pretty much any playoff team in the trade market.
Very true. His ability to shoot from distance at least opens up the floor.
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Not really. Melo is a scratch player and Rose is a -10 player (o/d net ratings). Melo's PER is higher. Melo's WS48 is WAY higher. Ditto VORP, BPM, and OBPM. The Knicks are also getting constantly scorched by opposing PGs. Rose's defense is horrific, and I lived through Calderon. You can very rightly criticize Melo's D this year, but at least it is at times decent. Rose is just putrid on D, at all time.
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In comment 13329674 dep026 said:
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In comment 13329671 EricNY33 said:
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Let me put it this way. Melo can still score from anywhere on the floor, AND if you move him to PF his defense gets better.
Rose can't shoot and can't defend no matter where you put him.
Fair points, but Melo at the 4 means no shot blocker near the rim, and he still wont be a good post defender.
The question is can Melo still score from anywhere on the court efficiently?
He has recently. He's actually had a very good month offensively. Normally he starts well and tails off as the season goes on. This year it's been the opposite.
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In comment 13329671 EricNY33 said:
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Not really. Melo is a scratch player and Rose is a -10 player (o/d net ratings). Melo's PER is higher. Melo's WS48 is WAY higher. Ditto VORP, BPM, and OBPM. The Knicks are also getting constantly scorched by opposing PGs. Rose's defense is horrific, and I lived through Calderon. You can very rightly criticize Melo's D this year, but at least it is at times decent. Rose is just putrid on D, at all time.
Melo's defense maybe the worst in the NBA. Lets be real.
Toronto: Melo would start rose wouldn't
Boston: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Washington: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Indiana: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Milwaukee: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Chicago: take your pick. Both would start. But Rose brings the same issues MCW, Rondo and Grant bring.
Charlotte: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Detroit: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Spurs: both would start but Pop wouldn't introduce either of those players into his system.
Houston: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't. Either way both are bad fits.
LAC: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Utah: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Memphis: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
OKC: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Portland: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Easy to see why Melo has more trade value.
At PF his defense isn't bad. When he has to chase around SF's it's horrendous, but his defense against the PF position is at least passable.
Read better
Toronto: Melo would start rose wouldn't
Boston: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Washington: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Indiana: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Milwaukee: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Chicago: take your pick. Both would start. But Rose brings the same issues MCW, Rondo and Grant bring.
Charlotte: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Detroit: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Spurs: both would start but Pop wouldn't introduce either of those players into his system.
Houston: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't. Either way both are bad fits.
LAC: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Utah: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Memphis: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
OKC: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Portland: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Easy to see why Melo has more trade value.
Are you on crack?
Many of those teams would not start Melo because their 3 man is their BEST defender.
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In comment 13329674 dep026 said:
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In comment 13329671 EricNY33 said:
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And Melo is better than Rose, thus giving him more value immediately.
Trust me, this is highly debatable right now.
Not really. Melo is a scratch player and Rose is a -10 player (o/d net ratings). Melo's PER is higher. Melo's WS48 is WAY higher. Ditto VORP, BPM, and OBPM. The Knicks are also getting constantly scorched by opposing PGs. Rose's defense is horrific, and I lived through Calderon. You can very rightly criticize Melo's D this year, but at least it is at times decent. Rose is just putrid on D, at all time.
Melo's defense maybe the worst in the NBA. Lets be real.
Being real, Rose is a worse defender than Melo. Melo's D has been bad this year. Rose's D has been consistently horrific. And to worse effect -- our biggest defensive issue this year has been slowing down opposing PGs, not SFs. And lets remember, Melo is effectively playing out of position. That's a semi-excuse only because the effort has been lacking with him.
I am being real. He can still create shots for himself, because he most definitely doesn't have a PG who can create them for him. I don't know what you consider a "contested" mid-range jumper. Usually he's taking shots from the mid-range that he creates space to take. Either a jab step or a one dribble pull-up. He has a nice turnaround fadaway in the post as well. That's the stuff I see. I watch every game.
So the "Noah is playing better" observations we're all making is backed up in the stats.
Who would Melo have to guard in the east? The worst of it is love and milsap but other than that who else? Amir Johnson? Patrick Patterson? Markief Morris? Thad Young? Taj Gibson? It's a joke it's so easy to hide Melo on those guys.
But look at rose. He's not gonna face even an average PG regardless of the matchup. Lowry, Wall, Kyrie, Thomas, Kemba are all top 5-8 PGs in the league right now. Rose got torched by Schroder yesterday. Jeff Teague and Brogdon are the best case scenarios but Rose got torched by Brogdon last week. You can't get away with Rose being a starter defensively. Melo you can get by.
I know one thing... if Rose could start by keeping his mane from getting into the paint the team defense would get better instantly.
So the "Noah is playing better" observations we're all making is backed up in the stats.
Happy to see. He's such a prideful player. Wouldn't mind having him around for a rebuild even with his overpaid contract
You've hit the nail on the head on why Rose can't be a starter on a playoff team.
Who would Melo have to guard in the east? The worst of it is love and milsap but other than that who else? Amir Johnson? Patrick Patterson? Markief Morris? Thad Young? Taj Gibson? It's a joke it's so easy to hide Melo on those guys.
But look at rose. He's not gonna face even an average PG regardless of the matchup. Lowry, Wall, Kyrie, Thomas, Kemba are all top 5-8 PGs in the league right now. Rose got torched by Schroder yesterday. Jeff Teague and Brogdon are the best case scenarios but Rose got torched by Brogdon last week. You can't get away with Rose being a starter defensively. Melo you can get by.
Brogdon was like 5-14 and 4-9 agsainst the Knicks. Hardly being torched.
It's no surprise to me that Melo has never sniffed a championship, despite some on here claiming he wsa a top 10-15 player. He's not a complete player and he adds nothing on the defensive side.
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Outside of Cleveland/GS:
Toronto: Melo would start rose wouldn't
Boston: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Washington: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Indiana: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Milwaukee: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Chicago: take your pick. Both would start. But Rose brings the same issues MCW, Rondo and Grant bring.
Charlotte: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Detroit: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Spurs: both would start but Pop wouldn't introduce either of those players into his system.
Houston: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't. Either way both are bad fits.
LAC: Melo would start but Rose wouldn't
Utah: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Memphis: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
OKC: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Portland: Melo would start but rose wouldn't
Easy to see why Melo has more trade value.
Are you on crack?
Many of those teams would not start Melo because their 3 man is their BEST defender.
That's fantastic. Hide him on the 4. There aren't that many scary 4s compared to 1s. You got Griffin, Milsap and Aldridge and that's about it.
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Let's say Melo and Rose are as bad of defenders as each other.
Who would Melo have to guard in the east? The worst of it is love and milsap but other than that who else? Amir Johnson? Patrick Patterson? Markief Morris? Thad Young? Taj Gibson? It's a joke it's so easy to hide Melo on those guys.
But look at rose. He's not gonna face even an average PG regardless of the matchup. Lowry, Wall, Kyrie, Thomas, Kemba are all top 5-8 PGs in the league right now. Rose got torched by Schroder yesterday. Jeff Teague and Brogdon are the best case scenarios but Rose got torched by Brogdon last week. You can't get away with Rose being a starter defensively. Melo you can get by.
Brogdon was like 5-14 and 4-9 agsainst the Knicks. Hardly being torched.
It's not just about shooting. There were multiple times I witnessed Rose get beat by Brogdon and then causing Noah to help out and Brogdon just dumping off to the open big.
Dallas did. But Melo isnt Dirk now. Melo would be a disaster at the 4. His weakside defense is atrocious and cannot protect the rim.
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Noah has really recovered in the advanced stats department. Drating down to 107 is #2 on the club, and he's a net +6 player. PER of 15.8, WS48 of .117, team best VORP and BPM on the strength of a strong DBPM. Really good rebounding and assist #s, as we'd expect.
So the "Noah is playing better" observations we're all making is backed up in the stats.
Happy to see. He's such a prideful player. Wouldn't mind having him around for a rebuild even with his overpaid contract
Good news!
No, but in all seriousness, I agree. If you're going to have an overpaid vet, let it be a fiery leader who tries on D. Although it hasnt shown up in the standings yet, I thought Minny was smart to bring in KG to help with culture and mentoring.
It's not just about shooting. There were multiple times I witnessed Rose get beat by Brogdon and then causing Noah to help out and Brogdon just dumping off to the open big.
Thats your argument for pro-Rose. How many PGs can stop him?
LOL, I cant believe the Bulls traded him for anything.
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hiding their worst defensive player at the 4?
Dallas did. But Melo isnt Dirk now. Melo would be a disaster at the 4. His weakside defense is atrocious and cannot protect the rim.
Dirk couldn't either.
Dirks averaged less boards than Melo every year since his championship year...what???
Why would Melo be relied on to protect the rim when Kevin Love is hanging out in the corner?
I'd like to know the shot attempts compared to other centers. Because if KP, as a 4, isn't defending his guy at the perimeter that means either
1)His man is clogging the lane allowing for an easy weakside block
2) his man can't shoot allowing for him to roam the paint
3) he is cheating on defense.
If the PF was extremely relied upon for rim protection you'd be shocked to find reasons why we allow 100+ points in most of our games.
Why would Melo be relied on to protect the rim when Kevin Love is hanging out in the corner?
Whos protecting the rim when TT sets a high screen? How's Melo guarding Lebron when Love sets a high screen?
I'd like to know the shot attempts compared to other centers. Because if KP, as a 4, isn't defending his guy at the perimeter that means either
1)His man is clogging the lane allowing for an easy weakside block
2) his man can't shoot allowing for him to roam the paint
3) he is cheating on defense.
If the PF was extremely relied upon for rim protection you'd be shocked to find reasons why we allow 100+ points in most of our games.
kp cheats off his man to much, knicks get killed by stretch 4s
LOL no... It's not, because Melo's post defense isn't bad.
This comment shows me just how little of the Knicks you actually watch.
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the first thing Lebron is saying is post him up and score at will.
LOL no... It's not, because Melo's post defense isn't bad.
This comment shows me just how little of the Knicks you actually watch.
Again, yes it is. First off I saw Gibson make moves on Melo where he was helpless in the post. And again, how many people in the post does he guard that is of Love's caliber? If he has trouble with Gibson, Love would eat him alive.
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the first thing Lebron is saying is post him up and score at will.
LOL no... It's not, because Melo's post defense isn't bad.
This comment shows me just how little of the Knicks you actually watch.
And Cavs basketball. If any team could get Lebron to let Kevin love be the primary offensive option that's a big way to beat them in a 7 game set.
Until Love puts up 30 in 3 quarters.
The mere fact people arguing that Melo could guard Love is laughable. Its like me saying Rose can guard Westbrook or Harden.
The mere fact people arguing that Melo could guard Love is laughable. Its like me saying Rose can guard Westbrook or Harden.
Love couldn't score on Harrison Barnes in the post in last year's finals. And if love is in the post where the fuck do you think TT's man would be? Sucking off kyrie beyond the arc?
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if Melo guarded him. Melo cannot guard Kevin Love in the post. And if he helped off of him (which he would need to do with Irving and Lebron driving), then he would hit how many 3s a game?
The mere fact people arguing that Melo could guard Love is laughable. Its like me saying Rose can guard Westbrook or Harden.
Love couldn't score on Harrison Barnes in the post in last year's finals. And if love is in the post where the fuck do you think TT's man would be? Sucking off kyrie beyond the arc?
Good thing Draymond Green guarded him when he was in the game. Barnes started off on Lebron.
And you are going to run double teams at Love forcing rotations from the weakside to leave lanes open for Lebron to cut and shooters like Smith and Kyrie wide open? Good luck with that. And why would you run double teams at Love if Melo can guard him?
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In comment 13329805 dep026 said:
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if Melo guarded him. Melo cannot guard Kevin Love in the post. And if he helped off of him (which he would need to do with Irving and Lebron driving), then he would hit how many 3s a game?
The mere fact people arguing that Melo could guard Love is laughable. Its like me saying Rose can guard Westbrook or Harden.
Love couldn't score on Harrison Barnes in the post in last year's finals. And if love is in the post where the fuck do you think TT's man would be? Sucking off kyrie beyond the arc?
Good thing Draymond Green guarded him when he was in the game. Barnes started off on Lebron.
And you are going to run double teams at Love forcing rotations from the weakside to leave lanes open for Lebron to cut and shooters like Smith and Kyrie wide open? Good luck with that. And why would you run double teams at Love if Melo can guard him?
Didn't say he'd double. But I'm just saying there would be 4 man in the paint if they ran to love in the post as their primary offensive option. It'd be easy to help and recover.
Last year Shaun Livingston was the most efficient player on post ups shooting like 45% which is pretty shitty for a 2 point shot. No team utilizes traditional post up scorers anymore outside Demarcus cousins who can continuously get to the rim every single play.
Link - ( New Window )
Matt Moore should find a new sport to follow. Those have to be some of the DUMBEST trade ideas I have ever seen.
The only one that may make sense is the Clippers and that only if Blake injury is worse than first thought.
The 9th one was melo and noah to the warriors for Thompson, Clark, Livingston, and 3 future 1sts.
In 1095 minutes with Embiid off the floor the sixers are -243 in scoring margin.
"After the game, Lee posted an Instagram picture of the characters from Dumb and Dumber two guys who might resemble Hornacek and assistant coach Kurt Rambis. Lee later deleted the post and explained that the pictures were meant to portray how dumb it is that the Knicks are losing (count the Daily News as skeptical.) "Posted a pic of dumb n dumber cuz that was my mood, no jab at no1," Lee wrote. "It's dumb that we have a talented team and we're in position to win games and keep losing by 1 possession.""
Jennings also complained about the rotations, hopefully Noah keeps his mouth shut or it's going to be a full mutiny by the vets.
Phil Jackson met with Carmelo Anthony today and asked him if he wanted to remain with the Knicks, sources told ESPN.
Phil Jackson met with Carmelo Anthony today and asked him if he wanted to remain with the Knicks, sources told ESPN.
So that reporter is a LA-based Lakers mouthpiece. Phil not even hiding that he's the source. It's interesting that it's not phrased "they met and discussed Melo's future in NY". No, the impetus is all on Melo.
Now the upside of that is if you get Melo to want out, rather than you asking Melo to accept a trade, you're more likely to get a Melo who will go lots of places. Because as mentioned, the places he'd probably most like to go are tough trade partners.
Hope that's not true. I've wanted to trade Melo for 3 years now. Don't tease me and then let nothing happen!
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Ramona Shelburne @ramonashelburne
Phil Jackson met with Carmelo Anthony today and asked him if he wanted to remain with the Knicks, sources told ESPN.
So that reporter is a LA-based Lakers mouthpiece. Phil not even hiding that he's the source. It's interesting that it's not phrased "they met and discussed Melo's future in NY". No, the impetus is all on Melo.
Now the upside of that is if you get Melo to want out, rather than you asking Melo to accept a trade, you're more likely to get a Melo who will go lots of places. Because as mentioned, the places he'd probably most like to go are tough trade partners.
This sets it up for Phil to try and trade melo and turn it into we asked melo and he agreed if they do trade him..Phil obviously using shelbourne as a mouthpiece...
I still think washington is the spot that works the best fit wise and is one of the better cities to live in this country. Only issue is the fans there don't give a fuck about their sports teams.
One source described the meeting as far more contentious than previous sit downs between Jackson and Anthony.
Trade deadline should be interesting
Lol. Well Melo averaged like 28 ppg the season prior to his FA. I obviously didn't think that's what Melo's value equated to at the time but given the direction we needed to head in that it would be the correct move to make.
Now who knows whether or not we might've gotten KP.
But please Phil if you get him to waive his NTC then this will be the first time this organization will have realized the proper direction to build a team.
Trade deadline should be interesting
We can only hope
Phil Jackson's resume with trades is beyond abysmal. You trust him to get anything for Melo? Nah.
@FisolaNYDN
Carmelo Anthony informed Phil Jackson today that he wants to remain with the Knicks, the Daily News has learned. Story coming.
Source: Carmelo Anthony reaffirmed his desire to stay with Knicks in meeting with Phil Jackson today, league source tells @TheVertical.
Each may be getting their story out there, but I very much doubt that they're co-managing a message. Nobody trusts Phil on messaging.
This is a really important point. Melo not waiving his NTC is his right. He bargained for it. But we dont need to commit to giving him a veteran playoff roster. We need to rebuild. If we cant get top 5 picks because Melo prevents us from sucking super hard, so be it. We hopefully have one franchise piece already, and that is the hard thing to land. Use mid/late lottery picks on wing athletes, develop KP and Willy, and sign some Euro vets. Then free agency 2019-2020 you hope to make a splash. Will be harder with the new CBA, but who knows -- maybe we'll have enough for a sign an trade.
We are one home run draft pick away from having a title contending twosome. I really believe it. It's not so outlandish to think we could get lucky again.
SAS said this morning Melo wasn't interested in leaving because he and his family LOVE NY.
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Just get as much as you can out of everyone else. Get a couple of 2nd rounders for Lee, Jennings, O'Quinn, holiday, whatever. Let rose walk. Don't fucking max Jute Holiday. Let Ron baker run point or sign yogi Ferrell to do so. If Melo won't leave then don't let it prevent us from heading in the same direction.
This is a really important point. Melo not waiving his NTC is his right. He bargained for it. But we dont need to commit to giving him a veteran playoff roster. We need to rebuild. If we cant get top 5 picks because Melo prevents us from sucking super hard, so be it. We hopefully have one franchise piece already, and that is the hard thing to land. Use mid/late lottery picks on wing athletes, develop KP and Willy, and sign some Euro vets. Then free agency 2019-2020 you hope to make a splash. Will be harder with the new CBA, but who knows -- maybe we'll have enough for a sign an trade.
We are one home run draft pick away from having a title contending twosome. I really believe it. It's not so outlandish to think we could get lucky again.
agree with all of this but what are the chances Phil executes this plan? He's an old man who's obviously not long for this job. I'm thinking he continues to try and "contend" which means more of the same moves many of us here have been criticizing.
agree with all of this but what are the chances Phil executes this plan? He's an old man who's obviously not long for this job. I'm thinking he continues to try and "contend" which means more of the same moves many of us here have been criticizing.
Well if he thinks he can put together a contender in the next few years he is delusional. And ipso facto the wrong man for the job.
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like Stein was right
SAS said this morning Melo wasn't interested in leaving because he and his family LOVE NY.
Then trade him to BKN. The nets can do the rest of the EC a favor and ensure the Celtics don't build another dynasty after the Cavs are done dominating the east. He won't have to move his family. Just an extra 20 minute subway ride.
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agree with all of this but what are the chances Phil executes this plan? He's an old man who's obviously not long for this job. I'm thinking he continues to try and "contend" which means more of the same moves many of us here have been criticizing.
Well if he thinks he can put together a contender in the next few years he is delusional. And ipso facto the wrong man for the job.
he's been delusional since he got here - I have no reason to think he's all of a sudden going to wake up and realize his approach has lacking.
somehwo they are going to win both..
keeping him here in NY wasn't the problem. It was giving him the NTC and the trade kicker and the ETO along with the big contract. And yes, he took slightly less than the max, but it was a relatively insignificant amount.
Did kg not care aboit winning when he did not want to leave minnesota?
i think it is a little unfair to say he doesnt care, if he didnt care he could juat retire collect his money and work on his off the court stuff..
I think he cares, i just think he loves being in new york and doesnt want to leave, funny how we as fans beg for a player to want to be in new york and now we rip him for staying
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He lives a great life and makes oodles of money. He's never played like he cares about winning and he doesn't act like he cares about winning. That's his prerogative and Phil messed up resigning this guy.
keeping him here in NY wasn't the problem. It was giving him the NTC and the trade kicker and the ETO along with the big contract. And yes, he took slightly less than the max, but it was a relatively insignificant amount.
in reality he took a big discount because of the jump of the salary cap, he could of went the lwbron route and made a lot.more money
The lure of "winning" isn't always a great thing. I seriously doubt Karl Malone would make the decision to deal with the Lakers headache again. (Granted, he was older and the Lakers actually made it to the Finals despite a team of people who hated each other.) I don't think Melo would just go anywhere with a good team.
Keith : 3:18 pm : link : reply
he's happy losing and collecting and keeping his life.
Keith : 4:53 pm : link : reply
He lives a great life and makes oodles of money. He's never played like he cares about winning and he doesn't act like he cares about winning. That's his prerogative and Phil messed up resigning this guy.
From the last thread
Keith : 1/15/2017 8:03 pm : link : reply
think that way because melo doesn't really care about winning which this would show. He's only willing to play with his friends or go to la.
Again with the mind reading. You have literally no basis to say Melo doesnt care about winning. what's your evidence? That he wont demand a trade to a contender? Really, how many guys do this? The Durant, LeBron, Bosh movement has been really rare in NBA history.
But go on, just pollute these threads with your emotional Melo hate.
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He lives a great life and makes oodles of money. He's never played like he cares about winning and he doesn't act like he cares about winning. That's his prerogative and Phil messed up resigning this guy.
keeping him here in NY wasn't the problem. It was giving him the NTC and the trade kicker and the ETO along with the big contract. And yes, he took slightly less than the max, but it was a relatively insignificant amount.
Thats the key point. I wanted to resign him but Jackson should have held his feet to the fire and resigned him on Knick's positive terms. Less years less money and not giving the no trade or kicker or ETO. If he walked then fine, but those are the big decisions Jackson was brought in to do. Phil gets massive credit for Porzingis but he's been an enormous disappointment. Knicks drama and futility continue.
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In comment 13330211 Keith said:
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He lives a great life and makes oodles of money. He's never played like he cares about winning and he doesn't act like he cares about winning. That's his prerogative and Phil messed up resigning this guy.
keeping him here in NY wasn't the problem. It was giving him the NTC and the trade kicker and the ETO along with the big contract. And yes, he took slightly less than the max, but it was a relatively insignificant amount.
in reality he took a big discount because of the jump of the salary cap, he could of went the lwbron route and made a lot.more money
sorry, but I don't give him credit for being unwilling to take a risk and bet on himself. He went the safe route and guaranteed himself $125.
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In comment 13330211 Keith said:
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He lives a great life and makes oodles of money. He's never played like he cares about winning and he doesn't act like he cares about winning. That's his prerogative and Phil messed up resigning this guy.
keeping him here in NY wasn't the problem. It was giving him the NTC and the trade kicker and the ETO along with the big contract. And yes, he took slightly less than the max, but it was a relatively insignificant amount.
Thats the key point. I wanted to resign him but Jackson should have held his feet to the fire and resigned him on Knick's positive terms. Less years less money and not giving the no trade or kicker or ETO. If he walked then fine, but those are the big decisions Jackson was brought in to do. Phil gets massive credit for Porzingis but he's been an enormous disappointment. Knicks drama and futility continue.
If Melo had agreed to a significantly below market deal (4/80 or something like that) I could see giving him the trade kicker or other benefits in return. But he basically got every conceivable perk in the contract and the max money. He is/was a great player, but he was never the type of player to which you cede that much leverage.
If they are really attaching Mohammed could also improve the bench
Are we sure about that?
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and is a better defender than rose..
Are we sure about that?
I guess me and you are better defenders so it is hard to tell