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NFT: Knicks: Melo vs. Phil?

DanMetroMan : 1/16/2017 10:59 am
-KP hopeful he can play today, Hornacek deemed him "doubtful" last night. If he's borderline then he shouldn't play.


"When asked to respond to that particular line in the article, Anthony said: “If that’s the case than that’s what’s coming from that side I guess it’s a conversation we should have. If they feel like my time in New York is over I guess that’s a conversation we should have.”

During Anthony’s post-game interview session with reporters on Sunday, Anthony was informed twice that the article was not written by Jackson but instead a close friend. Anthony, though, had no trouble connecting the dots, suggesting that it is more than a coincidence that the writer who criticized him in the piece has a relationship with the Knicks team president.

“Listen,” Anthony said, “if that’s what they feel…if that’s what’s coming from that side that’s what’s coming from that side. I haven’t thought once about that to be honest with you. I hear it. I hear all the rhetoric that’s going on out there and I still come to work every day and play and bust my ass and try not to worry about it.”
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RE: Fultz is my #1  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13329398 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Has a lot of James Harden offensively and is much better defensively.

Dennis smith has the athleticism of Rose but has some semblance of basketball IQ and defensive ability.


Hey now, Rose was actually a pretty good defender before injuries. Now, well.... not good.
Are we suggesting that Melo accepts a trade to Toronto?  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:43 am : link
Are we just suggesting for sake of conversation or do you actually believe that Melo would go to Toronto?
RE: RE: Fultz is my #1  
giantsfan44ab : 1/17/2017 10:44 am : link
In comment 13329400 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13329398 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Has a lot of James Harden offensively and is much better defensively.

Dennis smith has the athleticism of Rose but has some semblance of basketball IQ and defensive ability.



Hey now, Rose was actually a pretty good defender before injuries. Now, well.... not good.


Was referring to now. Derrick Rose was pretty good at a lot of things before the injuries.

Forgot about fox as well. If there were teams that had question marks at PG before this draft there really shouldn't be that many left after this one. Haven't seen the French guy play but he's a top 10 in a lot of mocks.
It's not like Toronto is some awful destination.  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 10:45 am : link
They're a legit 50+ win team year in and year out, with two All-Star guards and a borderline All-Star center. Coach is well-respected, too. I think Melo could be talked into it.
RE: Are we suggesting that Melo accepts a trade to Toronto?  
giantsfan44ab : 1/17/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13329403 Keith said:
Quote:
Are we just suggesting for sake of conversation or do you actually believe that Melo would go to Toronto?


If he IS really he'll bent on only going to LAC or Cleveland than he is simply not going to get traded. If after this "talk" or whatever he will open up his mind about other cities than I don't see why Toronto wouldn't be near the top of the list as possible destinations.

Unless of course his city preference is a priority over team quality than we can simply work something out with the Lakers.
Lakers or Detroit  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 10:47 am : link
are probably two situations where I can see Melo agreeing too if he HAD too. The cavs and clippers just cant happen.

Ellenson, Harris, Baynes for Melo and Thomas. There is the Knicks wet dream.
Nothing Melo has ever done was because he wanted a  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:48 am : link
better chance to win. All of his decisions are for the benefit of his family and off the court life(which he has every right to do). He wants to go to Cleveland because his friend is there. He wants to go to the Clippers because his friend is there. He's willing to go to LA because his family will be happy there. Did he come to the Knicks to win or because he wanted to be in NY?

Again, I have no issue with it, he's earned that right by having a very good career, but let's be realistic here. Melo is not going to move his family to Toronto.
If I'm Phil I'm waiting til Friday to have this meeting.  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 10:53 am : link
Knicks have two more losses coming on Wednesday and Thursday.
I don't think he's going to stick around a team that wants  
giantsfan44ab : 1/17/2017 10:54 am : link
to rebuild and where he's not wanted. Not saying you are wrong Keith but I think he might think about a few other places if that is conveyed to him. Despite him being a guy who cares about his lifestyle and not making decisions based on "winning" I don't think that necessarily means he's content with losing.
I wouldn't be surprised if Melo  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:54 am : link
opens his list to include Chicago too, to play with Wade.
giantsfan,  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:55 am : link
then why did he come to the Knicks, lol.
Melo made it pretty clear the other day  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 10:55 am : link
that he doesn't want to be here if he's not wanted. It's time to end this marriage.
RE: I wouldn't be surprised if Melo  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13329426 Keith said:
Quote:
opens his list to include Chicago too, to play with Wade.


ugh, no.
RE: RE: I wouldn't be surprised if Melo  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:57 am : link
In comment 13329431 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13329426 Keith said:


Quote:


opens his list to include Chicago too, to play with Wade.



ugh, no.


Obviously it wouldn't happen, but it would be AWESOME.
that's the beauty of this draft  
Greg from LI : 1/17/2017 10:58 am : link
There are at least a half-dozen guys who could be the #1 overall in most drafts.
The Knicks had the makings of a good team  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 10:58 am : link
when Carmelo got here. There were some obvious question marks about his ability to mesh with Amare, but there was legit excitement surrounding the team. Remember the game in Miami when Stoudemire block Lebron's shot to seal the victory? One of the bigger Knicks wins in recent memory. I don't doubt that money and New York were huge factors, but the Knicks had some positive energy surrounding their team, too.
The only chance that we had of building a true winner  
Keith : 1/17/2017 10:59 am : link
around Melo was if he signed as a FA. He forced a trade and forced us to trade any assets that we had. That was the end of that.
RE: The only chance that we had of building a true winner  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:02 am : link
In comment 13329442 Keith said:
Quote:
around Melo was if he signed as a FA. He forced a trade and forced us to trade any assets that we had. That was the end of that.


knicks could not sign him as a free agent without getting rid of some of the players that were involved in the trade..

they would of had to get rid of both gallo and chandler anyway to make it work
I don't remember that being true,  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:06 am : link
but regardless, we would then trade them for other assets. Either way, him forcing the trade hurt the knicks and hurt our chances of building a winner.
RE: I don't remember that being true,  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13329453 Keith said:
Quote:
but regardless, we would then trade them for other assets. Either way, him forcing the trade hurt the knicks and hurt our chances of building a winner.


no they would of had to dump them to sign melo..

remember knicks had zero cap space after the melo trade, they had to amnesty billups and dump turiaf to make it work to sign chandler at 15 million..

knicks had zero room for melo, it is a common misconception saying knicks could of just signed melo
RE: I don't remember that being true,  
giantsfan44ab : 1/17/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13329453 Keith said:
Quote:
but regardless, we would then trade them for other assets. Either way, him forcing the trade hurt the knicks and hurt our chances of building a winner.


It might've but overall it was a net plus for the Knicks.

Again, I'm agreeing with you that he isn't calculating his best way to win a championship ala Kevin Durant. But he doesn't seem like someone who is content with losing for as much as he may not actually care about winning. He's been here for 3 seasons and this team is still as good/bad as it was as when phil got here and on top of all the shit phil says and does that pisses him off I can't imagine he'd like to be in a place that clearly wants him out and isn't going to win anytime soon.
Yeah I hope so  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:11 am : link
because that would make our return and our position stronger.
my hope is  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:11 am : link
the knicks did not talk to him because they were working on trade scenarios and wanted to have a couple of things lined up before talking to him...

present them to melo and see what he says..hopefully he agrees to something that benefits both
RE: my hope is  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13329472 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
the knicks did not talk to him because they were working on trade scenarios and wanted to have a couple of things lined up before talking to him...

present them to melo and see what he says..hopefully he agrees to something that benefits both


Yeah I had that same thought. Melo is gonna share with his teammates whatever is told to him - if he's told they're gonna start fielding some offers, it'll just be a dark cloud hanging over the team until a deal is done. Better to just line up a couple options and see if you can sell him on one of them. Do I have faith in the Knicks to act so sensibly? Not really.
I have to assume that if the Knicks were calling people  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:16 am : link
and working on trade scenarios that something would get leaked, no? In this day and age, everything gets leaked.
Well, the Rose trade wasn't leaked.  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 11:19 am : link
Phil's been pretty stealth at times, so we'll see. I hope this isn't a long, drawn out process.
I hope so too,  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:22 am : link
but I think it will be. Too many moving parts and too much going on. With the NTC and he and phil being at odds and his love for NYC and his very small list of teams he'd be willing to go to(at this point) and his very high salary with a trade kicker. I think this is going to take some time. I don't think they have even agreed to separate yet. Once they meet and if they can agree that's best, Melo will let Phil know his list of teams and they will go from there. Then making it work financially will take more time.
RE: I have to assume that if the Knicks were calling people  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:22 am : link
In comment 13329482 Keith said:
Quote:
and working on trade scenarios that something would get leaked, no? In this day and age, everything gets leaked.


what knicks trade has been leaked?
This is different.  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:23 am : link
You guys are saying that the Knicks have already reached out to multiple teams and worked on a trade for Melo and will present that to Melo when they meet. What other trade was ever like that. The Knicks didn't shop Lopez and Grant. They called Chicago because they wanted Rose and made an offer that worked. It was done quick.
how about this 3 team deal  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:23 am : link
clippers: melo

heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks

knicks: dragic
knocks also get crawford  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:24 am : link
..
RE: how about this 3 team deal  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13329502 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
clippers: melo

heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks

knicks: dragic


how does that help the knicks? While Dragic is a nice player - is he really an answer to what you are trying to accomplish?
First off,  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:25 am : link
that trade doesn't come close to working financially.
RE: This is different.  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13329501 Keith said:
Quote:
You guys are saying that the Knicks have already reached out to multiple teams and worked on a trade for Melo and will present that to Melo when they meet. What other trade was ever like that. The Knicks didn't shop Lopez and Grant. They called Chicago because they wanted Rose and made an offer that worked. It was done quick.


phil had the chandler deal on the table for 2 weeks and then he showed it to melo before pulling the trigger
RE: First off,  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13329513 Keith said:
Quote:
that trade doesn't come close to working financially.


yes it does, i forgot to add in crawford
This does strike me as more of an offseason move.  
bceagle05 : 1/17/2017 11:26 am : link
I wonder how much leg work the Knicks have already done on this though - based on Charley Rosen's musings, you'd have to think Phil's been waiting with bated breath to get the go-ahead from Melo's camp. Wouldn't surprise me if Steve Mills has quietly been putting out some feelers.
RE: RE: how about this 3 team deal  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13329509 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13329502 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


clippers: melo

heat: rivers johnson holiday and a bunch of picks

knicks: dragic



how does that help the knicks? While Dragic is a nice player - is he really an answer to what you are trying to accomplish?


dragic had his best year as a pro under hornacek..

it then allows you to shop rose for assets and you then have a stop gap at point guard for the time being
Even as much as I like Rose....  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 11:30 am : link
and he could help a TON of teams, but there is nothing of value teams will give up for him. Again, no one in the east will give up assests to lose to Cleveland. Also, he is an expiring, so giving up picks and young players is just not going to happen.

A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.

He would instantly help a lot of teams though.
Tommy Beer  
DanMetroMan : 1/17/2017 11:34 am : link
RE: RE: I don't remember that being true,  
Deej : 1/17/2017 11:36 am : link
In comment 13329464 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13329453 Keith said:


Quote:


but regardless, we would then trade them for other assets. Either way, him forcing the trade hurt the knicks and hurt our chances of building a winner.



no they would of had to dump them to sign melo..

remember knicks had zero cap space after the melo trade, they had to amnesty billups and dump turiaf to make it work to sign chandler at 15 million..

knicks had zero room for melo, it is a common misconception saying knicks could of just signed melo


How sure are you? None of Gallo, Moz, or Chandler were making that much the next season (and Felton was making just 7.5 million). I think all 3 were affordable, but then we couldnt have signed TC maybe. Or we could have signed TC if we didnt trade for Billups and then buy him out (and they we would have had the buyout for Amare). Or maybe we could have fit everyone except one of Chandler or Felton.

I dont think it is that clear that Melo (sans Chauncey) wouldnt have fit with the pieces we traded for him.
RE: Tommy Beer  
Deej : 1/17/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13329545 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:


On the bright side, Derrick Rose showed up by game time, so there is some positive momentum.
Begley  
DanMetroMan : 1/17/2017 11:38 am : link
"Privately, players have been grumbling about lineups and rotations during the recent losing skid, according to sources. "

Hornacek is beginning to lose this team
It seemed so good in the beginning  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:40 am : link
and then just fell apart. Players are grumbling(Jennings, lee), but they deserve it. Gotta have consistency though. Neither Melo nor Rose have lost time due to their pathetic defense when they both should.
RE: It seemed so good in the beginning  
DanMetroMan : 1/17/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13329563 Keith said:
Quote:
and then just fell apart. Players are grumbling(Jennings, lee), but they deserve it. Gotta have consistency though. Neither Melo nor Rose have lost time due to their pathetic defense when they both should.


Hornacek's rationale for moving Lee to the second unit made sense (more touches) but he needs to show more balls with his players. Defensive effort should result in playing time/lack of playing time. Forget this season for a second, the players are getting away with whatever they want including guys like Rose making it sound like it's Hornacek's "fault" the defensive effort sucks. Rose/Jennings in particular aren't under contract for next year, if they don't put in defensive effort on a play, pull their asses. If it means shitty Sasha playing so be it. If Melo doesn't want to play defense then N'Dour can get some run. At the very least try and change the culture a bit.
RE: Even as much as I like Rose....  
EricNY33 : 1/17/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13329531 dep026 said:
Quote:
and he could help a TON of teams, but there is nothing of value teams will give up for him. Again, no one in the east will give up assests to lose to Cleveland. Also, he is an expiring, so giving up picks and young players is just not going to happen.

A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.

He would instantly help a lot of teams though.


Atlanta just traded Korver to Cleveland and got a first round pick in the deal. They got a first for a one-dimensional shooter.

If you think Rose will help as much as you claim I would think the Knicks could get a future first from Cleveland as well.
deej when the knicks made their "splash" in 2010  
nygiants16 : 1/17/2017 11:46 am : link
they used up all of their cap space..

they sign and traded lee for randolph azubuki and turiaf, turiaf and randolph had 2 year deals...

they signed felton who took up the rest of their cap space..

now say they do not trade for melo..

wilson chandler was a free agent he is gone..

you then have to make room, you have to get rid of turiaf and felton at minimum..

dont forget curry would of still been on the books as well..
All  
DanMetroMan : 1/17/2017 11:47 am : link
due respect but you can't have it both ways. Either Rose isn't as good as you are suggesting or he has legit trade value. A really good NBA player with no money beyond this year has trade value.
Path to Rebuild is right there  
TyreeHelmet : 1/17/2017 11:48 am : link
Do this trade with the Clippers for Melo. (Only hiccup could be trading Jamal Crawford. Him and CP3 are very close but Melo is also very close with him).

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z5vvdd8

Flip Jamal Crawford to another team for a 1st rd pick.

Buy out Derrick Rose- no one is trading for him and even if they'd want to his salary is very hard to find a match.

Try to trade Courtney Lee for a 1st round pick.

Then tank your way to hopefully a top 5-7 pick and have the picks from the Crawford and Lee trades. Try to sign some young up and coming players this offseason and then next years you'll also most likely be in the lottery. Ideally you'll have a top PG prospect, KP and some young players to build around along with cap flexibility. The path is there, make it happen Phil. Real Knicks fans would respect this plan.
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RE: RE: Even as much as I like Rose....  
dep026 : 1/17/2017 11:48 am : link
In comment 13329578 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 13329531 dep026 said:


Quote:


and he could help a TON of teams, but there is nothing of value teams will give up for him. Again, no one in the east will give up assests to lose to Cleveland. Also, he is an expiring, so giving up picks and young players is just not going to happen.

A team like SA may give up a late first but with parker/Mills thats doubtful. Clips cant take on salary. I have to agree with sgrcts that there is no value trading for Rose.

He would instantly help a lot of teams though.



Atlanta just traded Korver to Cleveland and got a first round pick in the deal. They got a first for a one-dimensional shooter.

If you think Rose will help as much as you claim I would think the Knicks could get a future first from Cleveland as well.


Its more about contract than it is player. Korver is making a little more than 5 million this year. Rose is making over 21 million.
Tyree, that trade doesn't work financially.  
Keith : 1/17/2017 11:49 am : link
ESPN isn't factoring in the trade kicker. I don't think a knicks/clips trade can work without including a 3rd team.
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