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Why does everybody want to scapegoat Mike Sullivan....

Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 9:41 am
as the reason for our offensive regression? I mean, it's been stated a million times that he didn't design the offense, and that he doesn't call the plays (!), yet I still see people wanting to heap all of the blame on him. I also read that he was a horrible offensive coordinator in his only chance at it. I thought I'd try to look at this particular coach a little more closely to see why everybody wants to blame him.

Offensive regression from 2015 to 2016:

Last year we were 6th in scoring, this year we were 26th.

Last year we scored over 30 points 7 times, this year we didn't hit that mark at all.

Last year we only scored under 20 points twice, this year we scored under 20 points 10 times.

We regressed in scoring, passing, and rushing. We did not show improvement in any category (although Eli's completion percentage went up, but that's it).

Now let's look at Mike Sullivan's role, and as an overall coach:

Let's start with the "Sullivan is proven horrible OC" meme that's been circulating around here lately.

First of all, Sullivan only served as an Offensive Coordinator for 2 seasons with Tampa Bay, both under Greg Schiano (also his only two years as head coach).

2012:

The team set a franchise record with 5,820 yards of total offense and 389 total points scored. Good for 13th in the NFL. The previous season, 2011, they were ranked 32nd in the NFL in offense.

Josh Freeman threw for over 4000 yards, 27 TD's, with 17 INT's. Josh Freeman! The guy has never had another season like it.

Doug Martin ran for nearly 1500 yards and 11 TD's.

2013:

Here is where he gets the bad rap, but I went back and wanted to look at what happened. Let's try to remember a couple of things that were happening here, instead of just looking at the final result, which I myself did not remember until I went back and looked.

First off, in only his second year, Schiano was already wearing out his welcome and the lockerroom was deteriorating.

The MRSA outbreak that ended Lawrence Tynes career happened during training camp.

A rift opened between Schiano and Freeman during training camp, where Schiano was accused of rigging the voting for team captains, which prevented Freeman becoming a captain. The next day, Freeman skipped the team photo session and blamed it on "oversleeping". Freeman was benched three games into the regular season and accused of quitting on the team because of the situation with Schiano.

Doug Martin went on injured reserve after 6 games.

However, 3rd round pick Mike Glennon then came in for the final 13 games and set franchise rookie quarterback records for the Bucs, throwing for 2600 yards, 19 TD's, and only 9 INT's.

Despite that, The team regressed back to 32nd in the league in offense, which is what they were two years prior, the year before Sullivan took over as OC. Schiano and his entire staff were fired at the end of the season. So it wasn't like they had a good thing in place and said "Sullivan is responsible for this, let's fire him and get a new guy in here". The entire staff was fired. After a year off, Sullivan came back to the Giants in the role of Quarterback Coach and many were happy to have him, citing his successful experience as a coordinator (on BBI he was considered to have gotten a raw deal because of Schiano), and his work with Eli Manning in the same capacity in 2010-2011.

Previous Coaching Experience:

New York Giants Quarterback Coach 2015, 2011, 2010 Performance was good.

New York Giants Wide Receivers Coach 2004-2009 Any complaints here?

There is a little more with other teams prior to this, but this is as far as I feel like I need to go back to make the point. The rest I can't remember and I doubt anybody else here can, or will try to go back farther.

So...

These are all the facts, not what I think happened, but the facts. Last year, 2015, Tom Coughlin was the head coach, McAdoo was the Offensive Coordinator, and Sullivan was the Quarterbacks Coach. This year, everybody moved one spot up. McAdoo moved to the Head Coaching position, but maintained playcalling abilities. Sullivan shifted up to the Offensive Coordinator postion, but again, was not granted playcalling abilities.

Do you really think the change of title for Sullivan granted him that much more responsibility than what he had last year, enough responsibility to tank the offense to the numbers cited above?

Are his two years as an offensive coordinator, one great, one poor, enough of a sample size (for the stats lovers) to claim the guy is a failure at OC? As far as being a position coach, anybody got a problem with him as QB Coach in 2010, 2011, and 2015? How about as WR's coach from 2004-2009? Any complaints there?

I don't know the answer why we regressed, personally, but a lot of people on this site claim to... and that answer apparently is that Sullivan is a bum. I counter that with: "based on what"? There is the evidence above, tell me why Sullivan is responsible.
because pitchforks are easier and more fun  
JonC : 1/17/2017 9:43 am : link
than logic and common sense.
I wouldn't scape goat him  
bradshaw44 : 1/17/2017 9:45 am : link
But I'd like an OC that gets paid to do something with the offense.
Perhaps there were legit reasons why  
Big Blue '56 : 1/17/2017 9:45 am : link
the Giants called the plays they did when they did..All I THINK I KNOW is that Macs PC this year was not on a par with his first two years..As for Sully, I really have no idea what his input into the O was this year..His strength SEEMED to be as QB coach to Eli
What Jonc said  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/17/2017 9:49 am : link
Someone needs to be blamed and the coordinator is always the easy target, especially when you have a 2 time Super Bowl MVP QB.

Spags was the worst DC is football last year and now fans are having anxiety attacks about him leaving.
Because his offical title is "offensive coordinator."  
Brown Recluse : 1/17/2017 9:49 am : link
As in, the person who coordinates the offense. How much coordinating he actually does - we really don't know. But people read the job title and react accordingly.

Outside of the obvious - that McAdoo calls the plays on Sunday because we can clearly see it with our own eyes - we don't know what role Sullivan has in preparing the offense during the week. Maybe preparation is the issue.

The players seem to have had issues with the vanilla play-calling throughout the season. Maybe play-calling was the problem.

Maybe it was both.

We don't know. We won't know. And anyone ready to point fingers is just guessing.
He must be good. The Giants get rid of bad coaches.  
Marty in Albany : 1/17/2017 9:51 am : link
--Tom Quinn
In my case...  
Dan in the Springs : 1/17/2017 9:53 am : link
I want the best for the NYG, and there just isn't any evidence that Sully is our best option.

You've made a good case for why he struggled in TB. Others point out that we probably could have scored another 14 points or so in the GB game if players could just execute the plays. But they didn't, and that's hardly a ringing endorsement for why he's a top-notch NFL coordinator.

In this league you have to have results. The NYG offense not only didn't perform to the standards it should have - it regressed throughout the season. For them to go on a stretch to end the season without getting to 20 points was a sin. When Reese stands at the pulpit following a blowout loss to GB and says it's "a mystery" as to why the offense was so ineffective, that's a problem.

Sullivan may not be wholly to blame here or in TB, but this league is brutally "what have you done for me lately". So I ask, what has Sully done lately for the NYG?

With no answers we should probably be looking for an upgrade, imo.
Because I think there are some who see 11-5  
sjnyfan : 1/17/2017 9:55 am : link
and don't want to blame McAdoo, but since the offense was so bad they have to blame someone.

I like Mac but he needs to stick to being a Head Coach. I think he's seeing his old boss McCarthy do it and think it's plausible but it's not for everyone.

Turn it over to Sully or find someone else.
Rushing  
aka dbrny : 1/17/2017 9:58 am : link
I think the inability to run the ball was the bottom line problem for everything. 26th in rushing average, 32 in scoring. All this even though everyone was playing cover 2. If you can run the ball, they can't sit back and blanket the WRs.

How they fix the problem is another matter. Legit two way threat at TE would be nice...Helps with the downfield blocking and the underneath routes.

I don't think Sullivan is being scapegoated outside of a few  
Victor in CT : 1/17/2017 10:01 am : link
know-nothings. The offense stinks, and McAdoo is calling the plays. It's Ben's offense. I think it makes sense to question why they hired an OC who doesn't share the same philosophy. Again, let McAdoo pick his own man.
I don't see the point of firing the offensive coordinator...  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:02 am : link
if you're not going to let him call the plays.

Furthermore, McAdoo did choose his guy. He tried to get Philbin, who turned him down. So he kept Sullivan. Nothing was forced on him. He changed offensive line coaches as well.
It's not making him a "scapegoat"  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:04 am : link
It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
RE: It's not making him a  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:06 am : link
In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
Quote:
It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.


What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
He's not a scapegoat.  
section125 : 1/17/2017 10:06 am : link
He is invisible.
.....  
Route 9 : 1/17/2017 10:07 am : link
Let's see. Flowers played bad, Pugh was injured, Richburg regressed without him. No useful tight end. No running game, especially inside the redone. No Shane Vereen. Cruz was on his last legs...need I say more?
RE: .....  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13329329 Route 9 said:
Quote:
Let's see. Flowers played bad, Pugh was injured, Richburg regressed without him. No useful tight end. No running game, especially inside the redone. No Shane Vereen. Cruz was on his last legs...need I say more?


Is that your answer to why it's Sullivan's fault? I'm confused.
RE: RE: It's not making him a  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?


How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?

Why isn't anyone consider how the loss of Coughlin  
Scuzzlebutt : 1/17/2017 10:09 am : link
might have impacted the offense? Coughlin was an offensive coach. I always believed his influence on MacAdoo's offense led to more frequent and more successful shots downfield.

I seem to recall a number of times that Coughlin mentioned after games in which the offense struggled that we needed to get the ball downfield more. Maybe MacAdoo is more prone to be overly conservative in his playcalling or gameplanning without Coughlin's influence.

Of course this is just speculation, but so is blaming Sullivan.
No  
Route 9 : 1/17/2017 10:12 am : link
...
RE: RE: RE: It's not making him a  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?



How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?


How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
.....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 1/17/2017 10:13 am : link
Good post.

Anyone scapegoating him is doing so making serious assumptions. The truth is we really don't know what his role is.
RE: Why isn't anyone consider how the loss of Coughlin  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13329336 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
might have impacted the offense? Coughlin was an offensive coach. I always believed his influence on MacAdoo's offense led to more frequent and more successful shots downfield.

I seem to recall a number of times that Coughlin mentioned after games in which the offense struggled that we needed to get the ball downfield more. Maybe MacAdoo is more prone to be overly conservative in his playcalling or gameplanning without Coughlin's influence.

Of course this is just speculation, but so is blaming Sullivan.


The point to draw from your observation is that you had two high level coaches providing input and influencing the offense. Same with Coughlin-Gilbride. The same can't be said for Sullivan.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not making him a  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:17 am : link
In comment 13329344 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:


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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?



How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?




How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?


You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.

You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.
because most fans are homers  
chris r : 1/17/2017 10:19 am : link
and Mac not doing a good job is more concerning than Sullivan not doing a good job.
WillVAB  
Scuzzlebutt : 1/17/2017 10:20 am : link
This is true, but Sullivan learned under Coughlin/Gillbride so the knowledge is there. However, the head coach makes the final calls. Maybe Coughlin was just more willing to listen when he was the head coach. MacAdoo is ultimately responsible isn't he?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not making him a  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:21 am : link
In comment 13329350 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329344 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:


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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?



How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?




How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?



You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.

You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.


McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.

Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?
RE: He's not a scapegoat.  
HomerJones45 : 1/17/2017 10:25 am : link
In comment 13329327 section125 said:
Quote:
He is invisible.
He was supposed to be.

You guys don't get it. Sullivan was hired as a hedge because McAdoo had zero experience as a HC. If McAdoo didn't know how to handle a situation or wanted a sounding board or went into a fetal position, there was someone on staff he could turn to. It couldn't be Spagnuolo who still harbors ambitions to be a HC and would have caused a Offense-Defense split in the locker room. So, the hedge had to be on offensive side of the ball.

I see Sullivan moving on because he is superfluous at this point, unless Super-GM Big Jawn steps in and orders Ben Mc to give up the playcalling. Nothing would surprise me with the way this team is run.

The alternative explanation is that Ben Mc is aping the Packers and Sullivan is either in the Tom Clements or Edgar Bennett role. I don't think anyone questions that the Packer offense is McCarthy's, lock, stock and barrel.

In either case, anyone with a brain should realize Sullivan is not in charge of the offense; so look elsewhere for reasons the offense sucks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not making him a  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:28 am : link
In comment 13329362 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:


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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?



How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?




How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?



You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.

You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.



McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.

Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?


Did McAdoo try to get another DC?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not making him a  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13329376 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329344 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:


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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:


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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:


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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?

The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.



What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?



How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?




How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?



You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.

You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.



McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.

Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?



Did McAdoo try to get another DC?


I'm going to break this down in the simplest terms possible. Let's take away the names McAdoo and Sullivan.

There are two guys in a room that coach your team's offense.

Gun to your head, you are responsible for firing one of them, okay? One or the other.

One of them designed the offense and calls the plays.

The other one, you're not quite sure what he did.

Gun to your head, which one are you putting the blame on?
And enough with the multi-quotes.  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:31 am : link
.
That's an oversimplification  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:40 am : link
One guy is the HC who did a great job managing games en route to an 11-5 record. The other is a JAG everywhere he's been.

Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.
Coaching is vastly overrated from an X n O standpoint  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/17/2017 10:46 am : link
It's more about managing the game/situation. Talent is what matters.

My proof? I've seen Tom Coughlin win a superbowl and then go 6-10. I've seen Jason Garret go 4-12 and then win 13 games. It's about the players. Our offensive players are generally average or shitty save a few guys.
So he's the OC who can't call plays  
HoustonGiant : 1/17/2017 10:46 am : link
can't design the offense, isn't using a system he created..... Got to be his fault....
RE: That's an oversimplification  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13329399 WillVAB said:
Quote:
One guy is the HC who did a great job managing games en route to an 11-5 record. The other is a JAG everywhere he's been.

Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.


Did Sullivan and McAdoo work together last year on offense, when we were 6th in the league? It's not like Sullivan just showed up this year.
Did spags  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/17/2017 10:47 am : link
become a better coach all of a sudden? He's had some of the worst defenses of all time. He's also had defenses that won superbowls. The difference is the talent.
RE: Did spags  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13329415 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
become a better coach all of a sudden? He's had some of the worst defenses of all time. He's also had defenses that won superbowls. The difference is the talent.


I would agree with this, except there really wasn't that much roster turnover on offense from last year to this year.

On defense, we added 200 million worth of talent.
I wonder if McAdoo's tendencies  
JonC : 1/17/2017 10:51 am : link
to call formations/plays/game flows very conservatively due to talent deficiencies have more to do with the production woes. He really kept it simple and turtled up relying on the defense to close situations all season long.

Not to dismiss Sully entirely, as I suspect a big part of his role is to break down opponent film, build a game plan and sets of play tiers on the diner menu.
RE: RE: That's an oversimplification  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13329411 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329399 WillVAB said:


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One guy is the HC who did a great job managing games en route to an 11-5 record. The other is a JAG everywhere he's been.

Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.



Did Sullivan and McAdoo work together last year on offense, when we were 6th in the league? It's not like Sullivan just showed up this year.


Sullivan wasn't the OC last year. Working together on the offense is a bit of a stretch. Coughlin-McAdoo worked together on the offense.
Jon,  
ColHowPepper : 1/17/2017 11:02 am : link
there's also the potential delta in the play of the OL: 2015, pretty much the usual suspects except more Jerry and Hart than Jerry and Newhouse--a mediocre wash--but there was a lot of commentary, meeting the eyes' test, that Richburg took a big step back. That was popular perception around here and may in fact be the case; if so, that can well handicap the play calls in both running game and passing game. TEs pretty much the poor blocking status quo, and no FB.
WillVAB, just to be clear...  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:09 am : link
based on your argument, do you believe Sullivan is largely responsible for the offensive regression? You seem to be trying to make a case for it.
CHP  
JonC : 1/17/2017 11:15 am : link
Yep, inconsistent, growing pains on the OL, as well as talent deficient at RT/RG ... and lacking talent at TE/RB/TE, with limited and at times strange personnel deployments. Eg, predictable use of "11", taking out a hot RB, and putting Rainey and Donnell in a crucial playoff game after a lot of pine riding.
Different style of football  
tomjgiant : 1/17/2017 11:15 am : link
this year,with a vastly improved defense,the whole philosophy of the game changed. They no longer needed to score 30+ points to win.Conservative game planning and trusting the defense to make stops when needed was the way McAdoo approached this season.With the loss of Will Johnson and then Vereen, the playbook shrunk.However they did manage to score enough points to win 11 games.
RE: Different style of football  
Old Dirty Beckham : 1/17/2017 11:18 am : link
In comment 13329480 tomjgiant said:
Quote:
this year,with a vastly improved defense,the whole philosophy of the game changed. They no longer needed to score 30+ points to win.Conservative game planning and trusting the defense to make stops when needed was the way McAdoo approached this season.With the loss of Will Johnson and then Vereen, the playbook shrunk.However they did manage to score enough points to win 11 games.


Tom, the giants didn't purposely score less points because they had a good defense. They scored less points because the offense lacked talent and creativity.

I wonder if Mara cares if there is a plan to fix the offense?  
aquidneck : 1/17/2017 11:21 am : link
I wonder if Reese cares? If McAdoo cares? If Sullivan cares? If Eli cares?

I mean who takes responsibility? Who is accountable here?

McAdoo got his job because Mara recognized that the "offense was broken" after the 2013 season.

Do you think Mara has an opinion about the offense is broken now?

Do you think someone in the organization has a plan to fix it? Whose responsibility is it to formulate that plan and achieve concensus by making sure his superiors approve?

I'd guess that if the OC doesn't have ownership of a coherent plan, then there isn't one. Dysfunction has been designed into the system.

This, IMO, is why Sullivan us on the hot seat.
RE: WillVAB, just to be clear...  
WillVAB : 1/17/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13329463 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
based on your argument, do you believe Sullivan is largely responsible for the offensive regression? You seem to be trying to make a case for it.


I wouldn't say that, but I think the offense would be better off going in a different direction at OC. The OL sucked. The TEs sucked. RBs were mediocre and WR production was spotty at best outside of Beckham and Shephard.

It's both -- I think they need a true WC OC, an infusion of talent along the OL, and a skill player mismatch at TE and/or WR.
McAdoo did what he's supposed to...  
Go Terps : 1/17/2017 11:23 am : link
he coached to the strengths and away from the weaknesses of the team.

It's not the head coach's job to keep the offensive ranking up; it's to win games. In his first season McAdoo won 11 games...a mark that Coughlin reached only twice in 12 seasons.

This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.

I guess the better question would be  
bradshaw44 : 1/17/2017 11:24 am : link
Why have an OC if Mac is designing and calling the offense? I mean, what's the point in paying him a salary? Maybe he doesn't share or know the ins and outs of the west coast offense. In which case maybe he tries to find an OC that shares his beliefs?

And I'll state for the record, I've never had a dog in this fight until you brought up the topic today. For all I know he could be perfect for calling plays under Mac, but he has to let him do that first.
RE: McAdoo did what he's supposed to...  
Greg from LI : 1/17/2017 11:24 am : link
In comment 13329503 Go Terps said:
Quote:
This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.


Not the trolls and the Coughlin dead-enders. They've done nothing but bitch and whine since the end of the playoff game.
RE: I wonder if Mara cares if there is a plan to fix the offense?  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13329492 aquidneck said:
Quote:
I wonder if Reese cares? If McAdoo cares? If Sullivan cares? If Eli cares?

I mean who takes responsibility? Who is accountable here?

McAdoo got his job because Mara recognized that the "offense was broken" after the 2013 season.

Do you think Mara has an opinion about the offense is broken now?

Do you think someone in the organization has a plan to fix it? Whose responsibility is it to formulate that plan and achieve concensus by making sure his superiors approve?

I'd guess that if the OC doesn't have ownership of a coherent plan, then there isn't one. Dysfunction has been designed into the system.

This, IMO, is why Sullivan us on the hot seat.


Shouldn't it be the head coach's job to fix the offense? Why is that in Sullivan's lap?
So is this thread considered trolling, Greg?  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:26 am : link
?
RE: RE: McAdoo did what he's supposed to...  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13329507 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13329503 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.




Not the trolls and the Coughlin dead-enders. They've done nothing but bitch and whine since the end of the playoff game.


Word. Need something to bitch about.
Britt  
Go Terps : 1/17/2017 11:29 am : link
The job of fixing the offense was on the GM, and he neglected to do that in favor of huge spending on defense.

McAdoo made the best out of a bad hand. This team easily could have gone 6-10 again had the ends of games been managed as poorly as they had been by Coughlin in 2015.
RE: RE: RE: McAdoo did what he's supposed to...  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:30 am : link
In comment 13329526 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13329507 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 13329503 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.




Not the trolls and the Coughlin dead-enders. They've done nothing but bitch and whine since the end of the playoff game.



Word. Need something to bitch about.


Yeah, dropping from 6th in the NFL to 26th in the NFL, and getting blown out in the playoffs after failing to score over 20 points for the 6th game in a row, but a team that scored over 30 points, something we've failed to do all year...

Nothing to bitch about. Not even worth mentioning, right?
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13329529 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The job of fixing the offense was on the GM, and he neglected to do that in favor of huge spending on defense.

McAdoo made the best out of a bad hand. This team easily could have gone 6-10 again had the ends of games been managed as poorly as they had been by Coughlin in 2015.


And you and I have been on the same page about this forever.

However, with practically the same personnel problems last year, we were much better. Why?
'Why does everybody want to scapegoat Mike Sullivan....'  
Torrag : 1/17/2017 11:32 am : link
The responsibility for this offenses struggle and ultimate failure lies squarely on the shoulders of Ben McAdoo. It's his scheme, he contrived the gameplan and called the plays on gameday. What else do you need to know? He has ample 'face time' in meetings with the players and coaches to insure his strategies are properly understood and implemented. It's on him.
They won 11 games and made the playoffs after  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 11:35 am : link
Going 6-10 the previous year. Of course there are issues on offense, everybody knows this. It will be addressed this offseason.

It's over. Done. Focus now is on moving forward and improving in 2017.

We get it. The offense stunk.

Why does BBI need to assign blame constantly?  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 11:38 am : link
It's silly. I'm interested in building a winner 2017 and beyond.

2016 was a successful season (as Terps noted).
This thread is exactly about that last question....  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:43 am : link
and you were all over a thread two days ago where the the narrative was largely heaping the blame onto Sullivan for the offensive woes, and you called him an awful OC.

Why do you blame Sullivan?
RE: RE: Britt  
Go Terps : 1/17/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13329535 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13329529 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The job of fixing the offense was on the GM, and he neglected to do that in favor of huge spending on defense.

McAdoo made the best out of a bad hand. This team easily could have gone 6-10 again had the ends of games been managed as poorly as they had been by Coughlin in 2015.



And you and I have been on the same page about this forever.

However, with practically the same personnel problems last year, we were much better. Why?


Because the offensive personnel was significantly worse this year than last year. A forked Cruz was an inferior option to Randle, Donnell eliminated himself as a threat, Vereen missed the season, Beckham struggled in high profile situations, and the offensive line was the same and a year more degraded.

Had McAdoo opened up the offense he could have gotten Eli and/or Beckham killed. And if that didn't happen he certainly would have put our defense in less advantageous positions to influence games. McAdoo said it himself to Francesa before the season started: the Brad Wing/Dwayne Harris combination is a potent weapon and he wouldn't be afraid to use it. The importance of Wing and McAdoo's rightful willingness to count on him completely bore itself out both during the regular season and in the disastrous playoff game when Wing finally faltered.

McAdoo did something this year that Coughlin, for all his great qualities, often failed to do: he implemented game plans that catered to the strengths of his team. McAdoo is the head coach and the entire team, not just the offense, is his charge. Had he opened up the offense more the stats may have been better, but the win-loss record would have been worse. He deserves to be lauded for setting aside any pride he may have had in being an offensive coach and recognizing the best path to winning games. It bodes well for the future of this team as long as he is the head coach.
RE: RE: RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13329573 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13329535 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13329529 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The job of fixing the offense was on the GM, and he neglected to do that in favor of huge spending on defense.

McAdoo made the best out of a bad hand. This team easily could have gone 6-10 again had the ends of games been managed as poorly as they had been by Coughlin in 2015.



And you and I have been on the same page about this forever.

However, with practically the same personnel problems last year, we were much better. Why?



Because the offensive personnel was significantly worse this year than last year. A forked Cruz was an inferior option to Randle, Donnell eliminated himself as a threat, Vereen missed the season, Beckham struggled in high profile situations, and the offensive line was the same and a year more degraded.

Had McAdoo opened up the offense he could have gotten Eli and/or Beckham killed. And if that didn't happen he certainly would have put our defense in less advantageous positions to influence games. McAdoo said it himself to Francesa before the season started: the Brad Wing/Dwayne Harris combination is a potent weapon and he wouldn't be afraid to use it. The importance of Wing and McAdoo's rightful willingness to count on him completely bore itself out both during the regular season and in the disastrous playoff game when Wing finally faltered.

McAdoo did something this year that Coughlin, for all his great qualities, often failed to do: he implemented game plans that catered to the strengths of his team. McAdoo is the head coach and the entire team, not just the offense, is his charge. Had he opened up the offense more the stats may have been better, but the win-loss record would have been worse. He deserves to be lauded for setting aside any pride he may have had in being an offensive coach and recognizing the best path to winning games. It bodes well for the future of this team as long as he is the head coach.


I sure hope you're right.
Britt: I haven't seen much scapegoating of Sullivan.  
Big Blue Blogger : 1/17/2017 11:45 am : link
With all respect, I think that's a straw man. The main objection to Sullivan as OC is that he came to the job with one year of experience in any WCO-derived system (2015 as QB Coach under McAdoo), so it's not realistic to expect him to operate at guru/innovator level. Maybe that's setting the bar too high, but hey - we all want the best for our team.

Sullivan's overall resume on the offensive side of the ball isn't all that impressive either. He had a pretty good run as WR coach (Smith/Manningham/Nicks), though Plax imploded on his watch and Cruz arrived after Sullivan switched jobs. His first stint as QB Coach was distinctly mixed: Eli struggled in 2010, then sparkled in 2011. I think it's fair to say most of Eli's formative pro coaching came from Coughlin, Hufnagel, Gilbride and Palmer, not Sullivan. By 2010, Eli was basically a finished product.

You've already discussed his time in Tampa. I agree that he probably wasn't as terrible as the Bucs' 2013 record suggests, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was so special that you would seek him out to run a completely different offense.

In 2016, Sullivan was the easy, in-house option for OC. Do you really think the team shouldn't seek an upgrade, or that it will be inordinately difficult to find one?
RE: RE: McAdoo did what he's supposed to...  
HomerJones45 : 1/17/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13329507 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13329503 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.




Not the trolls and the Coughlin dead-enders. They've done nothing but bitch and whine since the end of the playoff game.
Well, since even McAdoo said that the team can't count on another defensive effort like this past season, it's not "trolling" to talk about an offense that regressed badly from the previous year.

But, please, don't think about it; your head will only ache with the effort.
RE: This thread is exactly about that last question....  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13329571 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and you were all over a thread two days ago where the the narrative was largely heaping the blame onto Sullivan for the offensive woes, and you called him an awful OC.

Why do you blame Sullivan?


I'm not heaping blame on sullivan. Basically what BBB said: he just seems like an odd fit. If someone is available that BM is more comfortable with, wouldn't you explore?
I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:51 am : link
but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?
RE: RE: This thread is exactly about that last question....  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:53 am : link
In comment 13329592 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13329571 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


and you were all over a thread two days ago where the the narrative was largely heaping the blame onto Sullivan for the offensive woes, and you called him an awful OC.

Why do you blame Sullivan?



I'm not heaping blame on sullivan. Basically what BBB said: he just seems like an odd fit. If someone is available that BM is more comfortable with, wouldn't you explore?


I'm all for it. I was hoping for Philbin last year, I thought that would have been perfect.
RE: I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 11:56 am : link
In comment 13329595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?


I'm all for discussing the offense and why it went bad. But it would be nice to do so without BBI acting like whiny 15 year olds.

I'm just as tired as the Coughlin V Reese bullshit.
RE: RE: I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13329612 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13329595 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?



I'm all for discussing the offense and why it went bad. But it would be nice to do so without BBI acting like whiny 15 year olds.

I'm just as tired as the Coughlin V Reese bullshit.


Who is being whiny? Me?

I tried to start a legitimate discussion with nothing but the known facts, and got called a troll and Coughlin apologist. The thread had nothing to do with Coughlin and I didn't insinuate that it did. Which party was whiny again?
RE: RE: RE: I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13329618 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13329612 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13329595 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?



I'm all for discussing the offense and why it went bad. But it would be nice to do so without BBI acting like whiny 15 year olds.

I'm just as tired as the Coughlin V Reese bullshit.



Who is being whiny? Me?

I tried to start a legitimate discussion with nothing but the known facts, and got called a troll and Coughlin apologist. The thread had nothing to do with Coughlin and I didn't insinuate that it did. Which party was whiny again?


Wasn't calling you whiny.
Just checking because of the 15 year old girl comment.  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 12:02 pm : link
On the last thread two days ago, you directly called me a whiny 16 year old girl when it came to Coughlin, so I was just making sure that wasn't carrying over.
I don't think anyone thinks Sullivan single-handedly  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:04 pm : link
torpedoed the offense- The OL/No running game/No TE took care of that.

I think people have legitimate questions as to what Sullivan actually brings to the table, as his resume/background doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

That is all.
Now I am being whiny, I'll stop.  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 12:04 pm : link
Either way, frustrating what has happened with the offense.
RE: I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
Danny Kanell : 1/17/2017 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13329595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?


Britt, with all due respect, how many times this season did you post "Anyone else miss Coughlin?" or similar unprovoked when things were going bad, either in game threads or after losses? I remember it fairly regularly to the point where people were saying Britt, we get it.
RE: Now I am being whiny, I'll stop.  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13329633 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Either way, frustrating what has happened with the offense.


No doubt it is frustrating. But big picture- they won 11 games and the defense improved drastically. There is a lot to build on.

Not everything has to be a case of assigning blame (which is BBIs specialty)

Every year in the NFL is different, not everything is linear. 2017 is a new year.

RE: RE: I get that we had a good season, I'm happy with the record of 11-5  
Britt in VA : 1/17/2017 12:15 pm : link
In comment 13329638 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 13329595 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but this notion that we can't discuss the offense which was putrid, and the reasons for it, is bizarre to me. What is this, Fight Club?

And really, the Coughlin sh-t is getting tiresome. The only people that keep bringing Coughlin up are the ones that are calling everybody Coughlin lovers. Am I not going to be able to ever participate in a discussion on this board again without it being mentioned that I was a fan of Coughlin, which somehow negates any validity of any opinion of the team that I have moving forward?

If you don't want to discuss the offense, why it went bad, and how to fix it, what do you want to discuss?



Britt, with all due respect, how many times this season did you post "Anyone else miss Coughlin?" or similar unprovoked when things were going bad, either in game threads or after losses? I remember it fairly regularly to the point where people were saying Britt, we get it.


I did do that earlier this year, it was wrong, I owned it, and apologized for it. It was out of emotion during the games (certainly not the worst thing posted on the game threads or post game threads by any stretch, but still, I owned it). I have moved on from it.
ODB  
tomjgiant : 1/17/2017 12:22 pm : link
I didn't say they purposely scored less points,I'm saying it is a cause and effect of them having a much better defense they did not need to press to score more.I am sure if the bottom line was how many points you score in season they could have scored more but it is not.Wins and losses are the bottom line.
If I had to boil the offense's problems down to the biggest issue  
Go Terps : 1/17/2017 12:23 pm : link
it would be that when defenses basically dare the offense to run the football, the line can not block sufficiently to run even in those situations. The trickle down effect to the rest of the team from that is enormous.

The offensive personnel was putrid going into 2016. Most people were too enamored with the signings on defense to see it.

What's worrying is we're risking the same situation, only reversed, in 2017. There's a lot of assuming that the defense will remain good, and we should focus on signing offensive players. We're a year too late on that. There is no Osemele (1st team All-Pro), no Mitchell Schwartz (2nd team), no Ladarius Green to be had.
RE: If I had to boil the offense's problems down to the biggest issue  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13329668 Go Terps said:
Quote:
it would be that when defenses basically dare the offense to run the football, the line can not block sufficiently to run even in those situations. The trickle down effect to the rest of the team from that is enormous.

The offensive personnel was putrid going into 2016. Most people were too enamored with the signings on defense to see it.

What's worrying is we're risking the same situation, only reversed, in 2017. There's a lot of assuming that the defense will remain good, and we should focus on signing offensive players. We're a year too late on that. There is no Osemele (1st team All-Pro), no Mitchell Schwartz (2nd team), no Ladarius Green to be had.


Why does it always have to be your way? I love how you leave out the fact that Reese added multiple All Pros in: Snacks, OV, & Jenkins and paired them with Collins (1st team) and DRC (2nd team)

But that doesn't seem to count because that doesn't align with the Terps' vision.

You are an odd duck. The ultimate BBI contrarian.



We zig
you fuckers need  
Rory : 1/17/2017 12:32 pm : link
to show more patience. Go color or somthing
You constantly harp on "Not standing still"  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:34 pm : link
and building a dominate unit, which Reese did on defense.

But since you wanted to spend on offense, somehow everyone else is the idiot.

Now we are fucked because the Giants didn't follow Terps' vision.

It's silly. Giants zig. You zag. It's always something else with you.
RE: You constantly harp on  
Go Terps : 1/17/2017 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13329700 drkenneth said:
Quote:
and building a dominate unit, which Reese did on defense.

But since you wanted to spend on offense, somehow everyone else is the idiot.

Now we are fucked because the Giants didn't follow Terps' vision.

It's silly. Giants zig. You zag. It's always something else with you.


You completely miss the point. I'm saying we shouldn't ignore the defense the way we ignored the offense last year. 2017 is a new year and I wouldn't just assume the defense will be good again, ignore it, and focus on spending on the offensive side of the ball.
RE: RE: You constantly harp on  
drkenneth : 1/17/2017 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13329716 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13329700 drkenneth said:


Quote:


and building a dominate unit, which Reese did on defense.

But since you wanted to spend on offense, somehow everyone else is the idiot.

Now we are fucked because the Giants didn't follow Terps' vision.

It's silly. Giants zig. You zag. It's always something else with you.



You completely miss the point. I'm saying we shouldn't ignore the defense the way we ignored the offense last year. 2017 is a new year and I wouldn't just assume the defense will be good again, ignore it, and focus on spending on the offensive side of the ball.


Agreed. I'd add another pass rusher if the opportunity presented itself, I wouldn't assume anything.
We don't really know what Sullivan is responsible for  
David in LA : 1/17/2017 1:18 pm : link
My only issue with him is that since the OC is not calling plays, the product (offense) will depend a lot on the communication between McAdoo and Sullivan between games. I'd prefer McAdoo work with someone that has working experience in the WCO. Obvious talent issues aside, I think that's part of the reason why our offense looks so disjointed as it is.
RE: ODB  
Dan in the Springs : 1/17/2017 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13329664 tomjgiant said:
Quote:
I didn't say they purposely scored less points,I'm saying it is a cause and effect of them having a much better defense they did not need to press to score more.I am sure if the bottom line was how many points you score in season they could have scored more but it is not.Wins and losses are the bottom line.


I agree with you that teams with strong defenses will often score less than teams with bad defenses, based on their ability to hold a lead they will be more likely to play conservatively than to be aggressive.

Alternatively one must consider that when you have a bad defense you likely get fewer touches and less time to produce. Your field position is also likely to be worse (over time).

Not sure how much of that should balance out.

My biggest problem is that the offense really regressed as the year went on. We saw very minimal improvements in the running game, and the passing game turned to dog sh*t. All while the defense improved significantly.

Furthermore, you can't use the "good defense" argument to explain the poor offensive performance against Philly and GB. Of course Philly had a pretty good defense, but GB didn't have a particularly great one. We just weren't really a threat to come from behind.

Let's face it - when we got to 14-13 it looked like we had a chance, but when they got to 21 that hope was significantly diminished, and by the time it was 28-13 we all knew the game was completely out of reach. Why? There was zero confidence that we could score 29 points.
"McAdoo's calling plays because McCarthy told him to"  
CT Charlie : 1/17/2017 3:25 pm : link
Perhaps this was a shrewd tactical move by McCarthy, knowing he'd be facing us in the playoffs from time to time...



until McAdoo turns over the play calling to his OC  
Jersey55 : 1/17/2017 5:00 pm : link
then its all on McAdoo and Sullivan is blameless, under these conditions why even have an OC at all...
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