as the reason for our offensive regression? I mean, it's been stated a million times that he didn't design the offense, and that he doesn't call the plays (!), yet I still see people wanting to heap all of the blame on him. I also read that he was a horrible offensive coordinator in his only chance at it. I thought I'd try to look at this particular coach a little more closely to see why everybody wants to blame him.
Offensive regression from 2015 to 2016:
Last year we were 6th in scoring, this year we were 26th.
Last year we scored over 30 points 7 times, this year we didn't hit that mark at all.
Last year we only scored under 20 points twice, this year we scored under 20 points 10 times.
We regressed in scoring, passing, and rushing. We did not show improvement in any category (although Eli's completion percentage went up, but that's it).
Now let's look at Mike Sullivan's role, and as an overall coach:
Let's start with the "Sullivan is proven horrible OC" meme that's been circulating around here lately.
First of all, Sullivan only served as an Offensive Coordinator for 2 seasons with Tampa Bay, both under Greg Schiano (also his only two years as head coach).
2012:
The team set a franchise record with 5,820 yards of total offense and 389 total points scored. Good for 13th in the NFL. The previous season, 2011, they were ranked 32nd in the NFL in offense.
Josh Freeman threw for over 4000 yards, 27 TD's, with 17 INT's. Josh Freeman! The guy has never had another season like it.
Doug Martin ran for nearly 1500 yards and 11 TD's.
2013:
Here is where he gets the bad rap, but I went back and wanted to look at what happened. Let's try to remember a couple of things that were happening here, instead of just looking at the final result, which I myself did not remember until I went back and looked.
First off, in only his second year, Schiano was already wearing out his welcome and the lockerroom was deteriorating.
The MRSA outbreak that ended Lawrence Tynes career happened during training camp.
A rift opened between Schiano and Freeman during training camp, where Schiano was accused of rigging the voting for team captains, which prevented Freeman becoming a captain. The next day, Freeman skipped the team photo session and blamed it on "oversleeping". Freeman was benched three games into the regular season and accused of quitting on the team because of the situation with Schiano.
Doug Martin went on injured reserve after 6 games.
However, 3rd round pick Mike Glennon then came in for the final 13 games and set franchise rookie quarterback records for the Bucs, throwing for 2600 yards, 19 TD's, and only 9 INT's.
Despite that, The team regressed back to 32nd in the league in offense, which is what they were two years prior, the year before Sullivan took over as OC. Schiano and his entire staff were fired at the end of the season. So it wasn't like they had a good thing in place and said "Sullivan is responsible for this, let's fire him and get a new guy in here". The entire staff was fired. After a year off, Sullivan came back to the Giants in the role of Quarterback Coach and many were happy to have him, citing his successful experience as a coordinator (on BBI he was considered to have gotten a raw deal because of Schiano), and his work with Eli Manning in the same capacity in 2010-2011.
Previous Coaching Experience:
New York Giants Quarterback Coach 2015, 2011, 2010 Performance was good.
New York Giants Wide Receivers Coach 2004-2009 Any complaints here?
There is a little more with other teams prior to this, but this is as far as I feel like I need to go back to make the point. The rest I can't remember and I doubt anybody else here can, or will try to go back farther.
So...
These are all the facts, not what I think happened, but the facts. Last year, 2015, Tom Coughlin was the head coach, McAdoo was the Offensive Coordinator, and Sullivan was the Quarterbacks Coach. This year, everybody moved one spot up. McAdoo moved to the Head Coaching position, but maintained playcalling abilities. Sullivan shifted up to the Offensive Coordinator postion, but again, was not granted playcalling abilities.
Do you really think the change of title for Sullivan granted him that much more responsibility than what he had last year, enough responsibility to tank the offense to the numbers cited above?
Are his two years as an offensive coordinator, one great, one poor, enough of a sample size (for the stats lovers) to claim the guy is a failure at OC? As far as being a position coach, anybody got a problem with him as QB Coach in 2010, 2011, and 2015? How about as WR's coach from 2004-2009? Any complaints there?
I don't know the answer why we regressed, personally, but a lot of people on this site claim to... and that answer apparently is that Sullivan is a bum. I counter that with: "based on what"? There is the evidence above, tell me why Sullivan is responsible.
Spags was the worst DC is football last year and now fans are having anxiety attacks about him leaving.
Outside of the obvious - that McAdoo calls the plays on Sunday because we can clearly see it with our own eyes - we don't know what role Sullivan has in preparing the offense during the week. Maybe preparation is the issue.
The players seem to have had issues with the vanilla play-calling throughout the season. Maybe play-calling was the problem.
Maybe it was both.
We don't know. We won't know. And anyone ready to point fingers is just guessing.
You've made a good case for why he struggled in TB. Others point out that we probably could have scored another 14 points or so in the GB game if players could just execute the plays. But they didn't, and that's hardly a ringing endorsement for why he's a top-notch NFL coordinator.
In this league you have to have results. The NYG offense not only didn't perform to the standards it should have - it regressed throughout the season. For them to go on a stretch to end the season without getting to 20 points was a sin. When Reese stands at the pulpit following a blowout loss to GB and says it's "a mystery" as to why the offense was so ineffective, that's a problem.
Sullivan may not be wholly to blame here or in TB, but this league is brutally "what have you done for me lately". So I ask, what has Sully done lately for the NYG?
With no answers we should probably be looking for an upgrade, imo.
I like Mac but he needs to stick to being a Head Coach. I think he's seeing his old boss McCarthy do it and think it's plausible but it's not for everyone.
Turn it over to Sully or find someone else.
How they fix the problem is another matter. Legit two way threat at TE would be nice...Helps with the downfield blocking and the underneath routes.
Furthermore, McAdoo did choose his guy. He tried to get Philbin, who turned him down. So he kept Sullivan. Nothing was forced on him. He changed offensive line coaches as well.
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
Is that your answer to why it's Sullivan's fault? I'm confused.
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
I seem to recall a number of times that Coughlin mentioned after games in which the offense struggled that we needed to get the ball downfield more. Maybe MacAdoo is more prone to be overly conservative in his playcalling or gameplanning without Coughlin's influence.
Of course this is just speculation, but so is blaming Sullivan.
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
Anyone scapegoating him is doing so making serious assumptions. The truth is we really don't know what his role is.
I seem to recall a number of times that Coughlin mentioned after games in which the offense struggled that we needed to get the ball downfield more. Maybe MacAdoo is more prone to be overly conservative in his playcalling or gameplanning without Coughlin's influence.
Of course this is just speculation, but so is blaming Sullivan.
The point to draw from your observation is that you had two high level coaches providing input and influencing the offense. Same with Coughlin-Gilbride. The same can't be said for Sullivan.
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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.
You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.
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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.
You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.
McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.
Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?
You guys don't get it. Sullivan was hired as a hedge because McAdoo had zero experience as a HC. If McAdoo didn't know how to handle a situation or wanted a sounding board or went into a fetal position, there was someone on staff he could turn to. It couldn't be Spagnuolo who still harbors ambitions to be a HC and would have caused a Offense-Defense split in the locker room. So, the hedge had to be on offensive side of the ball.
I see Sullivan moving on because he is superfluous at this point, unless Super-GM Big Jawn steps in and orders Ben Mc to give up the playcalling. Nothing would surprise me with the way this team is run.
The alternative explanation is that Ben Mc is aping the Packers and Sullivan is either in the Tom Clements or Edgar Bennett role. I don't think anyone questions that the Packer offense is McCarthy's, lock, stock and barrel.
In either case, anyone with a brain should realize Sullivan is not in charge of the offense; so look elsewhere for reasons the offense sucks.
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In comment 13329344 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.
You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.
McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.
Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?
Did McAdoo try to get another DC?
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In comment 13329350 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329344 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329335 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13329326 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13329322 WillVAB said:
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It's about making the team better. If he doesn't call plays, what exactly does he do? What value does he bring to the team?
The offense took a huge step back this year. The Giants need to evaluate everyone from the OC to the players and proceed accordingly.
What good does firing the Offensive Coordinator do if you're going to just bring another guy in to serve as a figure head while the head coach continues to call plays?
How do you know that would happen if they made an OC change?
How do you know that changing OC will make any difference if McAdoo still calls plays?
You're assuming McAdoo will call plays in perpetuity as HC. I don't think you can make that assumption based off 1 year where he was stuck with a Coughlin holdover.
You think he would've called the plays if Philbin came on as OC like he wanted? From my perspective, it doesn't seem like Mcadoo trusts Sullivan with that responsibility.
McAdoo said that McCarthy told him to not give up plays, and he has not plans on doing so. That's what he said. So until we see otherwise, why should we think different.
Stuck with a Coughlin holdover? He tried to get somebody else but failed, and kept Sullivan. Stuck is a weird way to describe it. I guess he was stuck with Spagnuolo too?
Did McAdoo try to get another DC?
I'm going to break this down in the simplest terms possible. Let's take away the names McAdoo and Sullivan.
There are two guys in a room that coach your team's offense.
Gun to your head, you are responsible for firing one of them, okay? One or the other.
One of them designed the offense and calls the plays.
The other one, you're not quite sure what he did.
Gun to your head, which one are you putting the blame on?
Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.
My proof? I've seen Tom Coughlin win a superbowl and then go 6-10. I've seen Jason Garret go 4-12 and then win 13 games. It's about the players. Our offensive players are generally average or shitty save a few guys.
Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.
Did Sullivan and McAdoo work together last year on offense, when we were 6th in the league? It's not like Sullivan just showed up this year.
I would agree with this, except there really wasn't that much roster turnover on offense from last year to this year.
On defense, we added 200 million worth of talent.
Not to dismiss Sully entirely, as I suspect a big part of his role is to break down opponent film, build a game plan and sets of play tiers on the diner menu.
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One guy is the HC who did a great job managing games en route to an 11-5 record. The other is a JAG everywhere he's been.
Like I said initially, it's not about making him a scapegoat. His value and contribution to the team needs to be evaluated along with plenty of players on the offensive side of the ball. In my opinion, it makes more sense to go in a different direction. He doesn't share the same offensive philosophy as McAdoo. He doesn't call the plays. I think the team would be better off exploring other coordinators who align with McAdoo and can bring fresh ideas to the table.
Did Sullivan and McAdoo work together last year on offense, when we were 6th in the league? It's not like Sullivan just showed up this year.
Sullivan wasn't the OC last year. Working together on the offense is a bit of a stretch. Coughlin-McAdoo worked together on the offense.
Tom, the giants didn't purposely score less points because they had a good defense. They scored less points because the offense lacked talent and creativity.
I mean who takes responsibility? Who is accountable here?
McAdoo got his job because Mara recognized that the "offense was broken" after the 2013 season.
Do you think Mara has an opinion about the offense is broken now?
Do you think someone in the organization has a plan to fix it? Whose responsibility is it to formulate that plan and achieve concensus by making sure his superiors approve?
I'd guess that if the OC doesn't have ownership of a coherent plan, then there isn't one. Dysfunction has been designed into the system.
This, IMO, is why Sullivan us on the hot seat.
I wouldn't say that, but I think the offense would be better off going in a different direction at OC. The OL sucked. The TEs sucked. RBs were mediocre and WR production was spotty at best outside of Beckham and Shephard.
It's both -- I think they need a true WC OC, an infusion of talent along the OL, and a skill player mismatch at TE and/or WR.
It's not the head coach's job to keep the offensive ranking up; it's to win games. In his first season McAdoo won 11 games...a mark that Coughlin reached only twice in 12 seasons.
This season can only be categorized as an enormous success for McAdoo.
And I'll state for the record, I've never had a dog in this fight until you brought up the topic today. For all I know he could be perfect for calling plays under Mac, but he has to let him do that first.
Not the trolls and the Coughlin dead-enders. They've done nothing but bitch and whine since the end of the playoff game.
I mean who takes responsibility? Who is accountable here?
McAdoo got his job because Mara recognized that the "offense was broken" after the 2013 season.
Do you think Mara has an opinion about the offense is broken now?
Do you think someone in the organization has a plan to fix it? Whose responsibility is it to formulate that plan and achieve concensus by making sure his superiors approve?
I'd guess that if the OC doesn't have ownership of a coherent plan, then there isn't one. Dysfunction has been designed into the system.
This, IMO, is why Sullivan us on the hot seat.
Shouldn't it be the head coach's job to fix the offense? Why is that in Sullivan's lap?