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NFT: Dallas Stars @ NY Rangers. 7:05 PM on MSG

Anakim : 1/17/2017 1:12 pm
Zibanejad returns to the lineup. Oscar Lindberg is a healthy scratch tonight.



Antti Niemi (who blows) vs. Henrik Lundqvist


We're coming for you, Cody Eakin!
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RE: Side note, Eric Staal has 39 points in 43 games.  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13331178 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


Good for him. Let's hope he can sell his employee the idea a change of scenery would be best for some old sticks and his brother.
MTL  
pjcas18 : 1/18/2017 12:35 pm : link
has been linked to two Coyotes veterans, Doan - major pass - I see nothing he brings but a veteran presence and it's not like a Hossa or anything where he's got playoff experience and is an aging star - he's just a name a this point, and Martin Hanzal who I wouldn't mind as a rental, he's a UFA after the season and has size the Canadiens don't really have.
Eric Staal was clearly hurt  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 12:36 pm : link
most of his duration here, exacerbated late in the year when his head was slammed into the ice off a face-off i think it was.

despite the injury which is of course bad luck, it was still easily Gorton's worst move since taking over as GM. Last year's team had no shot to win a Cup, so why did we trade assets?
RE: well, I know I'll get a ton of shit for this, but 2 years ago  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13331065 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
a lot of folks, me included , posted that as great as Lundqvist was, it might make sense to trade him and keep Talbot. - ( New Window )


This organization is huge on "one more try" and pushing the limits on rotating the stock.

I've too have taken heat for Nash and years ago for Staal. They're working out well too.


Seems like that tweet could be backwards  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 12:39 pm : link
Not teams that are interested in him, but teams that he's interested in (and would waive for)

#atleastifuckinghopeso
Why is Nash not working out well?  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 12:39 pm : link
He's looked pretty good this year, IMO.

Oh by the way all these guys mentioned have NMCs but no biggie.
Light it up  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 12:43 pm : link
fizzle out come the playoffs

Seen the act for years.
Definitely frustrating as hell  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 12:45 pm : link
but he's a huge reason we make the playoffs every year since he's been here.

He's also, as discussed here often, been a force defensively at least.

We all want more. But we're not getting Crosby or Seguin in trade for him, so ride it out... his contract is almost up. I wouldnt be surprised to see him dealt this summer to Toronto. He'd be a great fit for them i think.
Rick Nash  
pjcas18 : 1/18/2017 12:45 pm : link
is one guy who I don't think fans always fairly appreciate. He is so versatile, I'd deal him because no one is untouchable, but Nash can play PP, PK, excels defensively and is technically sound (or better) in all facets of the game.

I'd need a lot back to trade Nash. even though I acknowledge he's in decline.

. . .  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 12:48 pm : link
you need cap relief more than talent back for him.
RE: Eric Staal was clearly hurt  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13331196 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
most of his duration here, exacerbated late in the year when his head was slammed into the ice off a face-off i think it was.

despite the injury which is of course bad luck, it was still easily Gorton's worst move since taking over as GM. Last year's team had no shot to win a Cup, so why did we trade assets?


My issue was thinking Staal would fix the obvious issues - the defense. If they traded for a top four guy and failed, that would have been fine, but thinking Eric Staal was the solution to anything was dumb. And I like him as a player.
RE: Rick Nash  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13331217 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is one guy who I don't think fans always fairly appreciate. He is so versatile, I'd deal him because no one is untouchable, but Nash can play PP, PK, excels defensively and is technically sound (or better) in all facets of the game.

I'd need a lot back to trade Nash. even though I acknowledge he's in decline.


I 100% agree. I think he's really underrated by Ranger fans. I'm open to trading him for cap space/D help/youth, especially if NYR is still struggling at deadline time.
Next year is the final year on Nash's deal  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 12:55 pm : link
and we only need some relief next year if we bring in Shattenkirk...

(I'm assuming Mika signs for $6 or 7 mil a year). The other RFAs are unlikely to get huge raises.

and the only way we bring in KS is if we can shed salary defensively next year -- be it Girardi, Staal, Klein... or better yet all of them.

We cant put ~$27 million into a defense next season that's still likely to be average at best even with Shatty.

The tough decisions get made in summer 2018 but by then Nash is off the books.
RE: RE: Eric Staal was clearly hurt  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 12:59 pm : link
In comment 13331237 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:



My issue was thinking Staal would fix the obvious issues - the defense. If they traded for a top four guy and failed, that would have been fine, but thinking Eric Staal was the solution to anything was dumb. And I like him as a player.


Largely agree, i think they thought he'd add a lot of scoring to the 3rd line which had been so brutal for us the prior playoffs, his overall Corsi% and face-off prowess would help us in the post-season, etc.

But anyone following the team with a basic understanding of metrics knew last year's team wasn't one player away. It was a Sather'esque move by Gorton - shocking for a first year GM trying to build something so he could have a career here -

...thankfully he redeemed himself last summer.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 12:59 pm : link
I think Nash could fetch a first and a really good prospect. Something like the Yandle deal.
RE: ....  
Deej : 1/18/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13331246 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think Nash could fetch a first and a really good prospect. Something like the Yandle deal.


Agree. Market may suffer a little just because the biggest contenders are in-division.
deej  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 1:04 pm : link
also suffers because pretty sure he's still got a fairly small list of teams he'd agree to go to.

Summer probably makes the most sense as far as trade. I remember Toronto was on his 'would go to' list when we traded for him, and i dont see them in a rush to do this right now.
Nash on the ice  
ColHowPepper : 1/18/2017 1:04 pm : link
is usually +, be it even strength, PP, PK, as said; he's unselfish and I think he's a positive, steadying force on the bench and in the room for the young forwards, lots of intangibles, even at this stage. If he is dealt, I hope it is from a strong hand
RE: ....  
pjcas18 : 1/18/2017 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13331246 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think Nash could fetch a first and a really good prospect. Something like the Yandle deal.


I am antsy ahead of this trading deadline. With the expansion draft, the Canadiens in contention but injured, and so many teams still on the fence for contention things could get crazy.

I don't know how to gauge the market for anyone (not that I ever really do) but this year in particular.

6 weeks and so much could change, but I see the most active trade deadline in a long time.

I think the Avalanche and the Coyotes are really the only teams legit out of playoff contention 6 weeks from the deadline (maybe that's not unusual, but with the expansion draft and the other factors I think it will be active)
Last year I said Nash to Nashville  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 1:11 pm : link
if they can afford it.

I'll opt for it again with Mike Fisher's time almost up. They have to go for it now.
I don't have a problem  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 1:24 pm : link
keeping Nash.

But as MAB notes, the defense is almost certainly more than a Shattenkirk away from where it needs to be.

As of right now the Rangers are $9m+ under the cap for next year assuming flat cap. Call it $10m assuming a very modest bump in the cap.

Conservatively say $7m for Zib. (You can do it cheaper with a bridge but I hate the idea. No mas bridge please).

That leaves $3m for Lindberg/Pirri/Fast/Peumpel/Clendo. Not enough money.

So you trade away Klein or lose him to expansion and that gets you just under $6m. It would be generous to say that's enough to sign the aforementioned (or fill their roster spots), but let's be generous and say that gets it done. No money left.

Buy out Girardi - that gives you $2.9m of space.

Defense is better addition by subtraction, but you still aren't sniffing Shat money. Sure, there are ways to get there, but even then you've got to wonder if there is enough talent on D.




Hoya  
jv : 1/18/2017 1:29 pm : link
If your scenario were to play out, I'd argue the subtractions of Klein and Girardi and replacing them with Shattenkirk and I suppose more time for Clendening would be a major improvement to our D.
I suspect they're going to shop Stepan in the offseason  
Greg from LI : 1/18/2017 1:29 pm : link
.
Jv  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 1:32 pm : link
I'd say improvement.

McD Shat
Skjei Holden
Staal Clendo

Or whatever pairs you want to make from it. Throw Graves in there too if you're bullish.

better, but I still worry about that group.
RE: I don't have a problem  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 1:38 pm : link
In comment 13331301 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
keeping Nash.

But as MAB notes, the defense is almost certainly more than a Shattenkirk away from where it needs to be.

As of right now the Rangers are $9m+ under the cap for next year assuming flat cap. Call it $10m assuming a very modest bump in the cap.

Conservatively say $7m for Zib. (You can do it cheaper with a bridge but I hate the idea. No mas bridge please).

That leaves $3m for Lindberg/Pirri/Fast/Peumpel/Clendo. Not enough money.

So you trade away Klein or lose him to expansion and that gets you just under $6m. It would be generous to say that's enough to sign the aforementioned (or fill their roster spots), but let's be generous and say that gets it done. No money left.

Buy out Girardi - that gives you $2.9m of space.

Defense is better addition by subtraction, but you still aren't sniffing Shat money. Sure, there are ways to get there, but even then you've got to wonder if there is enough talent on D.






hoya - I've got $9.85mm space on a flat cap, not 9mm. I think you can assume 11mm. Ziba should get 6mm, but ok on your conservatism there.

Leaves 4mm -- Fast unfortunately, barring a trade of (most likely Nash) before the expansion draft which probably means we dont get the greatest return... is likely the player taken by Vegas.

Frankly I'd prefer Grabner just because he'll be 30 and is a UFA in what will be a tough summer 2018... but figure you lose Fast.

You are carrying 14 forwards right now, you'll go into next season at 13... so Pirri (if he's even re-signed, we may find cheaper), Puempel, Lindberg and Clendening combined only need $4 million. I think that's do-able.

But yeah, to find the $6 mil/year for Shatty you'll need to unload/buy-out Girardi, move Klein and tweak in other areas like maybe trading Raanta and finding a goalie at half the cost. It's doable without trading Nash, but when I look at losing Fast for nothing PLUS having to make all these moves to afford Shattenkirk... yeah it does point to trading Nash before the Vegas draft.

With that said, perhaps a deal can be made for a younger top 4 D-man that won't cost $6-7mil a year on the wrong side of 30 too.... we've made these "shiny" FA acqs in the past, as much as i like Shattenkirk, there is a lot of risk there.

PS. Oh by the way, Yandle has not been very good for Florida this year. And its year one of that deal.

RE: I suspect they're going to shop Stepan in the offseason  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13331319 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


I hope you're wrong. I would need a huge, huge haul.

That's one NMC I'm not even a little bit afraid of. He's 29 at the end of the deal and I think he's going to shatter his career point highs this season and next, especially seeing the way that he and Kreider are piling up stats together.
RE: I suspect they're going to shop Stepan in the offseason  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13331319 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


I can see why from an asset allocation perspective - Stepan's had a really strong year. On pace for ~65 points I believe. I think he's a bit underrated league wide, I never understood why Ryan O'Reilly was perceived to be worth much more when they were both angling for extensions.

I'd rather trade Zucc than Stepan if I had to.
I watched more hockey this year than any other year  
pjcas18 : 1/18/2017 1:41 pm : link
since it's the first time I have the NHL Center Ice package.

very underwhelmed with Shattenkirk. I know he's the big name out there but I'd pass on him.

He just doesn't create enough offense IMO for an offensive defenseman.

I'd rather make a trade that hurts a little for a Dougie Hamilton or a guy like that, someone with some grit with their offensive game.
MAB  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 1:44 pm : link
good stuff, thanks for the reply.

I'm with you. Unless we get a real sweetheart deal from Shat, I'm not a big cheerleader for just paying whatever it takes. I won't be sad if they decide to pass.

Shat or no shat, trading Nash is one way of possibly getting a defensement like the one you describe while also making the $ wiggle a little easier. Trading Zucc is the other. Return would be very good, doesn't free up as much money.

Definitely will be interesting to see what they do.

Hockey is the most fun sport to play fake-GM with, IMO.
I think it's simply a question of value  
Greg from LI : 1/18/2017 1:48 pm : link
They have quality young centers behind him in Zibby, Hayes, and Lindberg. That's a solid top 3. He's not that much older than those guys, but he IS older. His value is probably as high as it's going to be. Zucc won't bring as much in return and has the lower cap hit.

Gotta give to get, and I think Stepan likely will provide the most value to a trading partner and thus the best return. They have to create cap room to improve the defense, while also not taking too much from the offense. Gordon's got his work cut out for him.
Nash will be hard to replace though, since he fills so many roles  
Greg from LI : 1/18/2017 1:51 pm : link
I don't think you're going to get back anything close to fair value for him.
I agree that it will have to be Stepan who goes. It would be silly  
Victor in CT : 1/18/2017 1:53 pm : link
to trade Nash now with only 1 yr left on his deal. He may not score in the playoffs, but he definitely helps get you there and is a solid all-around player and person. I doubt Zucc brings much if anything in return. He fits on the Rangers, prob doesn't fit in many other places.

As many of you have said, the big fuck up that they are still paying for was letting Stralman go.
The problem in what you propose  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 1:57 pm : link
it drastically impacts our offense while allocating a never-ending increased cap dollars to a defense/goaltender situation that will still likely suck.

Dont forget Stepan is one of our best two way forwards too.

Ideal world Staal, G and Klein and their contracts are all gone next summer. I'm fine with Holden being Vegas' pick too -- he was a nice find by Gorton, but there's some puck luck in his scoring like we saw with Klein two years ago and Gorton can find those types every summer i think.

I'm also just not nearly as high on Lindberg as some on this board here are. To me he's JAG. Even before his injury late last year, they tried to trade him to Carolina for Staal and Carolina preferred 2nd round draft picks and the kid from Finland.

If the issue is the defense - then restructure the defense. What are we going to do - healthy scratch G and Klein next year? No... then get rid of them by any means necessary.
I've told you  
pjcas18 : 1/18/2017 2:00 pm : link
my opinion since the summer, Hayes is the guy you trade. I view him as redundant with several other players, and he's still more name than game.

I'd trade Hayes + for Hamilton.

Hayes does not create offense, he's the beneficiary of offense created by others.

and I wouldn't worry about Vesey being in NY because of Hayes, I haven't been too impressed with Vesey, but he's a rookie so I'll give him some time.

The ridiculous part about Girardi  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 2:01 pm : link
is i do think there are some systems out there he wouldnt look so bad / out of place in. Even if we ate half his contract in a deal, it'd be better for his career and for our long-term cap ramifications if he just waived his NMC and left already.

But as we've discussed before, who the fuck knows if this organization even wants to deal him.
RE: I've told you  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13331405 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


I'd trade Hayes + for Hamilton.

.


You don't have the cap space and there is no defense. They need to free up money.

Thank goodness the city, not the Rangers, attracted Hayes and Vessy. My gosh this team doesn't want to part with anybody. Don't move Nash, Staal, Giarardi, Hank, etc. Let's lock them all up so we have no room and think we can somehow trade approx $900K for $5 million, keep everybody, stay under the cap, sign free agents, lose draft picks and, oh by the way, win.

They have to move out money or buy them out. The window slammed shut. Move some pieces rather dream that early offense was going to continue with wild cross ice passes and beautiful goals. Opponents shut the lanes down by Dec and realized the defense still stinks.

You want Hamilton? Then move out age and money rather than inexpensive youth.





Kreider fined $5k  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 2:38 pm : link
For using Cody Eakins' helmet in the fight.
RE: RE: I've told you  
Greg from LI : 1/18/2017 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13331445 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
Move some pieces rather dream that early offense was going to continue with wild cross ice passes and beautiful goals. Opponents shut the lanes down by Dec and realized the defense still stinks.


Goals scored, last ten games: 6, 4, 2, 5, 5, 1, 6, 6, 4, 4

But yeah, they can't score anymore. Terrific analysis.
Reading this thread is depressing  
Sonic Youth : 1/18/2017 2:50 pm : link
For those more knowledgable than I am: Do you think Hank is losing his reflexes and quick-twitch so to speak, or does this seem more like a mental problem?
RE: RE: RE: I've told you  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 2:55 pm : link
In comment 13331485 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13331445 Giants2012 said:


Quote:

T
Move some pieces rather dream that early offense was going to continue with wild cross ice passes and beautiful goals. Opponents shut the lanes down by Dec and realized the defense still stinks.



Goals scored, last ten games: 6, 4, 2, 5, 5, 1, 6, 6, 4, 4

But yeah, they can't score anymore. Terrific analysis.


So they're out scoring opponents for win? Looked over the defense still stinks part and the salaries right? You enjoy what you think you're watching. It's our year right?
who said it's our year?  
Greg from LI : 1/18/2017 2:57 pm : link
.
Hayes for Hamilton  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 3:02 pm : link
adds $3 million to the cap in 2017-2018, but is net neutral after that as Hayes will easily make $5.75 mil/year

Not saying Hamilton is the guy, but it makes sense from the standpoint of then being able to protect Fast as the 7th forward and forcing Vegas to choose from 1 year of Grabner (who will be 30+), Holden and/or Klein -- all of which i'm perfectly fine losing in an expansion draft.
hey, make the move  
Giants2012 : 1/18/2017 3:06 pm : link
but get rid of some other players. At least one for cap relief. Heaven for bid return a prospect.





No doubt  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 3:23 pm : link
we need to unload some of this dead-weight defensive cap money. Easier said than done.

I do think after last summer Gorton has earned some trust here. His only mistake IMO was not giving JT more term instead of a bridge deal and trading Klein to afford the higher salary, but what's done is done.

In an ideal world Staal, Girardi and Klein are all playing for other teams next year. Doubt it happens but it was hard to imagine trading Brassard and getting a better player back at cheaper money too.

They are still 28-17 despite Lundqvist having by a mile his worst professional season.
RE: Kreider fined $5k  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13331472 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
For using Cody Eakins' helmet in the fight.



worth every penny by the way. That was awesome.

Now if he could just stop running goalies when we were going to score anyway...
.  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 5:22 pm : link
Quote:
6. Is it possible St. Louis moves Kevin Shattenkirk, freeing up cap space to do something else? The Blues can handle it, with Alex Pietrangelo and Colton Parayko on the right side. It’s a creative move and it makes sense, since Shattenkirk and the coaching staff don’t always seem on the same page. What it also does is open up some short-term possibilities that might not otherwise exist.

Shattenkirk made it known he would not consider Edmonton long-term, but would he do it for a few months as the Oilers chase the playoffs? Why not? Montreal and Toronto would also make sense as teams that need a short-term burst. Think about it: Those clubs (or anyone else who would be interested) get a good rental. Shattenkirk gets a situation where he’s going to play a big role and make himself look even better for his upcoming free agency. (Although, as I’ve said before, other teams are convinced he wants to play for the Rangers.) Shattenkirk breaking out with Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner or Connor McDavid would be fun to see.

30 thoughts - ( New Window )
From Twitter  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 5:28 pm : link
Quote:
Prior to the Eakin hit: 22 appearances 91.6 SV% and 2.44 GAA . . . After the hit: 10 appearances 86.9 SV% and 3.94 GAA
#samplesize  
bigbluehoya : 1/18/2017 5:49 pm : link
.
That Twitter person went to the JoeMP school of analytics!!  
MetsAreBack : 1/18/2017 5:59 pm : link

After the Eakin hit and before the bye week:
7 games, .900 sv%, 2.7 GAA

Post bye:
3 games, .789 sv%, 5.3 GAA

(by the way their 3.94 GAA i guess annualizes the Dallas, Montreal and Minnesota games in which he was pulled/came in late... I didnt for my GAA above because that's a good amount of work with minimal return)

Could it be that over a month after the collision Hank just now started having headaches and ramifications? Maybe, but its more likely just a slump + poor structure in front of him... hell maybe even missing the much maligned Marc Staal during this stretch is part of the problem.

It's a better theory i think than a month after a hit a goalie started to stink so that's gotta be the reason...
Blame arc, he was the one who brought it up.  
BrettNYG10 : 1/18/2017 7:54 pm : link
He had a great game against NAS a few days later, IIRC.
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