A lot of chest puffing on the other thread about inside sources and access we don't have. All well and good when it's about the salary cap (for which there are plenty of public sources to accurately pull apart data), but here's where some insider knowledge would come in handy.
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
If we're going to play the 'I know better than you guys' game, here's a great place to start - what are other teams and people close to the Giants (the access that we don't have) saying about Flowers beyond the fact that he has disappointed? Is he moving to the right? Does he get another year at LT? Did the new OL coach and scheme have a net positive or negative impact?
BB'56 had a thread yesterday evening that ended up being deleted. I mentioned the history of Whitworth and his situation with the Bengals. Basically, they have drafted younger players, but their inability to develop and unseat Whitworth has led their front office to kicking the can on Whitworth. Last year was one year deal. The year before that he was coming off a 2 year deal. He has to realize this is his last contract. I just hope their young talent has developed enough for the Bengals to not offer another piecemeal contract. He likely will want to stay with the Bengals as he has played for them his entire career, but absent a contract from them, he should be our primary target.
Move Flowers to the right side. It's worth an effort in OTA's to see if he can handle RT, but I think he would be better suited at RG to protect against the speed on the outside. A draft prospect, Lamp, would likely be there for us to pick. Let the Flowers, draft pick, and Hart decide how the right side shakes out. For insurance, I would bring back Newhouse as depth.
RE: Amazing...been calling for the Giants to go after Â
has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
that seems to be overlooked (maybe for a good reason). If starting quality OTs (or only one OT) can’t be found via FA or in the draft, there appears to be a little more value at OG in both the draft and FA market. If the team believes that Flowers can play a decent RT, then put him there, find a LT (perhaps a short term stopgap like Whitworth) and draft/sign one of the available OGs to play RG. This assume that Flowers can handle RT, which maybe a big assumption.
has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Dare say, are the Giants best off drafting two O-lineman Â
played all 16 games in all but 2 seasons, and fewer than 14 just once. His window coincides with Eli's, andit gives them a year more to see if Flowers, Pugh and Richburg are long term answers
RE: RE: Dare say, are the Giants best off drafting two O-lineman Â
Perhaps, but this is a very weak draft class for the OL.
Yeah I read that as well, but don't follow college player ratings enough to support or doubt it.
Nevertheless, it could also result in some of the upper tier guys still falling into our laps based on where we draft...if they are not considered stars.
RE: RE: RE: Dare say, are the Giants best off drafting two O-lineman Â
Perhaps, but this is a very weak draft class for the OL.
Yeah I read that as well, but don't follow college player ratings enough to support or doubt it.
Nevertheless, it could also result in some of the upper tier guys still falling into our laps based on where we draft...if they are not considered stars.
All good points. On the other hand you have to worry about reaching to meet a need, and picking someone way too early when there was clearly better talent at other positions still on the board.
Sign Whitworth to a 2-3 year deal and put him at LT.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
RE: Amazing...been calling for the Giants to go after Â
Sign Whitworth to a 2-3 year deal and put him at LT.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
By many accounts, Hart was projected to be an NFL guard. He was only in at RT due to injury. He may still become a decent OG.
Sign Whitworth to a 2-3 year deal and put him at LT.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
By many accounts, Hart was projected to be an NFL guard. He was only in at RT due to injury. He may still become a decent OG.
Beer Man I just don't see it. I don't think he plays tough enough to play guard. At least with Flowers I knew on running plays he would get push when the run went his way. Hart wasn't successful at either the run or pass imo.
a puff piece? I thought that was a pretty accurate, good summary of the options for tackle for the Giants.
That could have been written by literally anyone - there's nothing in that article that we all didn't know already.
That's not a shot at JR specifically, I realize you've got a lot of space to fill and it's a long offseason, I'm just saying that he did a lot of chest puffing yesterday, and filling out an article like this with something even remotely resembling insider opinion or something from people close to the team/game would go a long way towards validating it.
on tackles in the last four years, and both have not been able to hold down the spot. Picking at 23, I do not think you can draft a guy this year and plug him in at LT and expect to have that spot solidified. You also can't go into the season expecting Flowers to be your LT based on this past season's performance.
Whitworth would be a solid signing. You need someone who is not a question mark, and he is as close as you will get unless you trade for someone which I would not expect. In a later round you draft an LT with the physical skills who just isn't ready from a technique/experience perspective and you trust your coaches to get him ready in 2-3 years when Whitworth is done.
I thought that in the West Coast offense, a guard needs to be able to pull and move. I don't see Flowers doing that well. His strength is in pushing straight ahead.
by time pick. Can't move up for him (which would do if it didn't drain your picks).
Ramczyk you don't know about his injury and long-term.
trading for a 35 yrs old Thomas would be good only if it was for a win now year, which isn't.
Maybe a unforeseen vet OT good one comes unexpectedly avail this off season.
I'd start with Leary of Dallas inside at G, but see how his health is first too.
Not much pickings to help this off season. Where OL is limited both Draft & FA..may have to wait til next off season to find one, and take care of an "extra" OLmen in a two-way TE which is rich in this draft
by time pick. Can't move up for him (which would do if it didn't drain your picks).
Ramczyk you don't know about his injury and long-term.
trading for a 35 yrs old Thomas would be good only if it was for a win now year, which isn't.
Maybe a unforeseen vet OT good one comes unexpectedly avail this off season.
I'd start with Leary of Dallas inside at G, but see how his health is first too.
Not much pickings to help this off season. Where OL is limited both Draft & FA..may have to wait til next off season to find one, and take care of an "extra" OLmen in a two-way TE which is rich in this draft
Robinson drops out of the first round in Jeremiah's mock
A lot of chest puffing on the other thread about inside sources and access we don't have. All well and good when it's about the salary cap (for which there are plenty of public sources to accurately pull apart data), but here's where some insider knowledge would come in handy.
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
The reality of the newspaper business is that
1) sometimes a beat reporter has to file a story when there's no news, because that's what his editor wants; and
2) reporters and editors can't assume that everybody is as well-informed about the Giants as a BBI reader; so
3) reporters write stuff they've written before, not because they're lazy, but because reporters and editors assume not everyone read the earlier stories, and if they did, readers may not remember them.
So sometimes you're going to read stuff that bores you or strikes you as a "puff piece," but you're not the intended audience.
you realize that most of these pieces that beat reporters or NFLN types write..could basically be written by anyone. Their job is to keep fans of each team informed. Jordan does a good job at that.
“Ereck has played basically every snap since he has been here. He is an early-out junior, still a young player, but it is time for him to show us the fruits of being a first-round draft pick, and I still think he has a chance to do that,” general manager Jerry Reese said after the season.
“Is he the left tackle? Should he be in a different position? We will evaluate that. But I do think that he is a big, strong kid who has a chance to be a really good player."
Yes, Reese, you know he isn't a LT......and now you are hoping that he can just be an average RG/RT......not good for a #9 pick....
As for the piece itself, it is nothing but fluff.....Raanan probably got the idea by reading BBI....
RE: I'd take Whitworth on a 2 yr deal with an option for 3. He's Â
played all 16 games in all but 2 seasons, and fewer than 14 just once. His window coincides with Eli's, andit gives them a year more to see if Flowers, Pugh and Richburg are long term answers
there were whispers of him being uncoachable and those whispers have gotten louder. His falling out with the previous OL coach is not a positive on the matter to say the least.
Maybe dude is just not pro material from a brain, drive and desire standpoint.
I thought that in the West Coast offense, a guard needs to be able to pull and move. I don't see Flowers doing that well. His strength is in pushing straight ahead.
I could see it. There were a few times where Flowers pulled out from his LT position this year. Plus, he's no slower than John Jerry who pulled just fine as our RG. Also, Flowers career arc reminds me of DJ Fluker who was a college LT that the Chargers eventually moved inside to RG when the experiment failed at tackle. The Chargers played in a WCO. Flowers and Fluker have a very similar build and athletic ability.
I don't disagree some of those comments were self-serving Doomster Â
you realize that most of these pieces that beat reporters or NFLN types write..could basically be written by anyone. Their job is to keep fans of each team informed. Jordan does a good job at that.
If you walked away from this one informed, kudos to you.
I don't expect them to all be masterpieces, but this one was straight up time waster.
has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Reese has a ton of work to do. Pugh may be another Beatty deal. He's been better than Beatty but too often hurt. And with so little depth they may over pay him for continuity. There isn't a guy on the OL
who is an no briane keeper. To have one of the worst OLs
Four years running is sad when you have a pocket like QB in Eli. They need 3 OLs out of the draft. 2 in the first four sounds Where I don't care and at least one FA starter. Reese has failed for 9 years at finding any. It should scare us fans.
has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
I hear you but that's a tough assessment based on what happened this year, with the way he got hurt. That can happen to anyone on a football field at anytime.
#2 WR is the weakest position on O. On D it all depends what we do with our DL free agents
WR is not even close to the weakest position on this team. OL, RB, TE then WR. And i'd put defensive help ahead of WR assuming the lose one of JPP or Hankins or Robinson.
that DRC is dangled as trade bait to a team that maybe wants to move one of its tackles? Sounds nuts...rarely happens...but it does happen from time to time and maybe there's a match out there. I'd consider trading DRC for an equally talented tackle of similar age. Why not...I love DRC but if you could turn him into a tackle you'd have to consider it. You'd be robbing peter to pay paul in some ways, but the cupboard wouldn't exactly be bare in the secondary.
for someone next season I'm going to stick a pillow over my head and suffocate myself.
Could possibly happen. I've said this in the past on other threads, but I always got the impression that Mac didn't want Will B. back on the team, but Jerry felt he had to add him given the OL situation and not many options left. It seemed like Mac wasn't going to play him unless he absolutely had to. I don't know if any of that is true, it was just my reading between the lines.
and an even worse draft, I can see JR overpaying in FA or trading up in desperation for Robinson, even a slipping Robinson, or jumping on a unknown,healthwise, Ramcyk.
I thought that in the West Coast offense, a guard needs to be able to pull and move. I don't see Flowers doing that well. His strength is in pushing straight ahead.
I think it has more to do with the zone blocking type running game the Giants have been using for years. The West Coast Offense is more about passing, and uses short passing routes over running the ball. Macs O implements both.
BB'56 had a thread yesterday evening that ended up being deleted. I mentioned the history of Whitworth and his situation with the Bengals. Basically, they have drafted younger players, but their inability to develop and unseat Whitworth has led their front office to kicking the can on Whitworth. Last year was one year deal. The year before that he was coming off a 2 year deal. He has to realize this is his last contract. I just hope their young talent has developed enough for the Bengals to not offer another piecemeal contract. He likely will want to stay with the Bengals as he has played for them his entire career, but absent a contract from them, he should be our primary target.
Move Flowers to the right side. It's worth an effort in OTA's to see if he can handle RT, but I think he would be better suited at RG to protect against the speed on the outside. A draft prospect, Lamp, would likely be there for us to pick. Let the Flowers, draft pick, and Hart decide how the right side shakes out. For insurance, I would bring back Newhouse as depth.
Seem to recall Lomas Brown did OK as a veteran LT stop-gap. Maybe Whitworth could provide similar value.
good point about Lomas Brown clatterbuck. I'd rather do that than Â
has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Reese has a ton of work to do. Pugh may be another Beatty deal. He's been better than Beatty but too often hurt. And with so little depth they may over pay him for continuity. There isn't a guy on the OL
who is an no briane keeper. To have one of the worst OLs
Four years running is sad when you have a pocket like QB in Eli. They need 3 OLs out of the draft. 2 in the first four sounds Where I don't care and at least one FA starter. Reese has failed for 9 years at finding any. It should scare us fans.
Totally agree that Reese has missed on EVERY lineman he's taken except Richburg, he will be a good center for us. You can't ignore that Pugh was a first Rd draft pick that was supposed to be our RT initially but the scouts all said his arms were too short and now he's our LG, and as you mention he has not played 16 straight games so nice his rookie year. That said, Pugh should be paid like a starting guard and losing him would only hinder the team. I think getting Whitworth solves two major issues: a starting caliber LT to stay healthy and protect Eli and someone to mentor a young LT we draft either this year or next. Don't know if we can afford Whitworth and Reiff but that would solidify an OL Resse has treated like middle school science experiment....and he definely is no scientist.
Isn't Kalil a physical breakdown waiting to happen?
There's no real evidence to suggest he misses games or is constantly injured. He had the hip this past season and that's been about it. Started every game in career before that.
a refurbish of the O-line at the tackles and a MUCH better TE, we will have the same shitty level of performance on offense next year. It wasn't like injuries did us in.
We also would benefit from a RB that is big and/or strong and runs with a 'tude. Despite this being a passing league, every time the Giants have won or been in the SB, they have had kick-ass RBs. Perkins is a decent player but we need a two-headed RB these days.
Also, another WR with some size would be nice, though we may be able to get by with what we have at WR.
And he obviously is only a stop-gap measure to provide reliable protection for Eli's blindside. He doesn't have a recent injury history and still at the top of his game evidenced by his selection to the Pro Bowl in his later years (2012, 2015, and 2016).
The last time the New York Football Giants sent a tackle to the Pro Bowl was in 1994 with Jumbo Elliot.
Well let's put it this way, there aren't as many viable options this year as there were last year to fix the tackle problem. If Reese had the balls to admit his mistake of trying to make Flowers a LT last year and signed a real LT (I.e. Okung, Clady, Penn, Monroe, etc) and moved Flowers to RT, all we would be talking about doing this year is replacing Jerry (Zeitler, Warmack, Leary). A much easier task. But Reese screwed up and you are probably looking at new people at three spots to fix this. And it won't come from the draft because it's not a great year for OL and they take too long to develop anyway. And on top of that it will take a while for a new group to become cohesive and effective.
In 2010 Pro Football Focus picked Kareem as 1st team All Pro.They said McKenzie was the best offensive tackle in football, and easily the best run blocker.I do not think most Giant fans realize how much we miss Kareem.
RE: RE: See, this is where Raanan disappoints a bit Â
A lot of chest puffing on the other thread about inside sources and access we don't have. All well and good when it's about the salary cap (for which there are plenty of public sources to accurately pull apart data), but here's where some insider knowledge would come in handy.
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
The reality of the newspaper business is that
1) sometimes a beat reporter has to file a story when there's no news, because that's what his editor wants; and
2) reporters and editors can't assume that everybody is as well-informed about the Giants as a BBI reader; so
3) reporters write stuff they've written before, not because they're lazy, but because reporters and editors assume not everyone read the earlier stories, and if they did, readers may not remember them.
So sometimes you're going to read stuff that bores you or strikes you as a "puff piece," but you're not the intended audience.
In 2010 Pro Football Focus picked Kareem as 1st team All Pro.They said McKenzie was the best offensive tackle in football, and easily the best run blocker.I do not think most Giant fans realize how much we miss Kareem.
Boy, I sure do. Having a great run-blocking RT is a huge advantage, and he was that.
They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
“Ereck has played basically every snap since he has been here. He is an early-out junior, still a young player, but it is time for him to show us the fruits of being a first-round draft pick, and I still think he has a chance to do that,” general manager Jerry Reese said after the season.
“Is he the left tackle? Should he be in a different position? We will evaluate that. But I do think that he is a big, strong kid who has a chance to be a really good player."
Yes, Reese, you know he isn't a LT......and now you are hoping that he can just be an average RG/RT......not good for a #9 pick....
As for the piece itself, it is nothing but fluff.....Raanan probably got the idea by reading BBI....
Why do you bother to follow this team if you only read the most absolute negative interpretation? Or in this case, a more negative interpretation than the actual words even suggest?
They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
I'm absolutely in favor of pursuing Whitworth, but I wouldn't consider him a "spend big on a great" LT. He has a fantastic track record. And a dusty birth certificate. I would gladly - GLADLY - cheer his addition to the roster, but he's a stopgap. Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't consider a stopgap solution to be "spend big on a great LT."
They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
I'm absolutely in favor of pursuing Whitworth, but I wouldn't consider him a "spend big on a great" LT. He has a fantastic track record. And a dusty birth certificate. I would gladly - GLADLY - cheer his addition to the roster, but he's a stopgap. Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't consider a stopgap solution to be "spend big on a great LT."
Got you. Just a matter of semantics. I admitted above that he would only be a stop gap signing. But I also realize that he would instantly be our best LT in 20+ years. For such a storied franchise in one of the largest markets, I find it troublesome that we continue to field such mediocrity with our OL.
I wouldn't sign a 36 yr old, who knows when his play jsut Â
I'd probably go draft again, picking Ramczyk in Rd 1 (if his hip is ok'd by doctors) or Bolles in Rd 2 or 3 (this may be the best option frankly).
What about Beatty? Is he done or was this season a redshirt season (so to speak)? If he can return to just what he was, which was an avg or slightly above average LT, that would help dramatically. We wouldn't have to use a draft pick.
the Giants didn't bring in better competition for LT. Mostly because they appeared to tell FA's that there wasn't an open competition for the spot, and that they would be signing to play RT.
I've been critical of the Giants for this, but it doesn't mean I've given up entirely on our OT's. They are way too young to write off altogether. Here's what I'm really hoping for.
1. The Giants sign a capable set of OT's - don't need to be all-pros.
2. Flowers/Hart win the starting jobs in camp and play well all season.
the Giants didn't bring in better competition for LT. Mostly because they appeared to tell FA's that there wasn't an open competition for the spot, and that they would be signing to play RT.
I've been critical of the Giants for this, but it doesn't mean I've given up entirely on our OT's. They are way too young to write off altogether. Here's what I'm really hoping for.
1. The Giants sign a capable set of OT's - don't need to be all-pros.
2. Flowers/Hart win the starting jobs in camp and play well all season.
I think it's more complicated than just open competition. The difference in salary between LT and RT is significant. How do you sign an FA and tell them it's open competition? If anything, you'd have to pay them like an LT and then slot them in at RT if they come up short. Then, you're paying a premium for a guy technically playing out of position.
With the benefit of hindsight it looks bad, but I think the Giants made the right call. They had Flowers, who had an up and down rookie year starting at LT from day one, and figured he would progress. They brought in vet tackles (both RT and LT), with the intent of having them start at RT and the backup option of sliding them over to the left should Flowers falter. They balked because of the difference in compensation.
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
If we're going to play the 'I know better than you guys' game, here's a great place to start - what are other teams and people close to the Giants (the access that we don't have) saying about Flowers beyond the fact that he has disappointed? Is he moving to the right? Does he get another year at LT? Did the new OL coach and scheme have a net positive or negative impact?
This is opportunity in the right hands...
Move Flowers to the right side. It's worth an effort in OTA's to see if he can handle RT, but I think he would be better suited at RG to protect against the speed on the outside. A draft prospect, Lamp, would likely be there for us to pick. Let the Flowers, draft pick, and Hart decide how the right side shakes out. For insurance, I would bring back Newhouse as depth.
Thomas isn't the answer, Cleveland was expecting a 1st or 2nd and he gets paid in the double digit millions, that's no way to solve a problem.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Or OL, TE, OL....
Or OL, TE, OL....
Quote:
with their first two picks?
Or OL, TE, OL....
Perhaps, but this is a very weak draft class for the OL.
Yeah I read that as well, but don't follow college player ratings enough to support or doubt it.
Nevertheless, it could also result in some of the upper tier guys still falling into our laps based on where we draft...if they are not considered stars.
Quote:
In comment 13332114 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
with their first two picks?
Or OL, TE, OL....
Perhaps, but this is a very weak draft class for the OL.
Yeah I read that as well, but don't follow college player ratings enough to support or doubt it.
Nevertheless, it could also result in some of the upper tier guys still falling into our laps based on where we draft...if they are not considered stars.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
How does one go after a player that isn't a FA and has 1st round pick demands? Last year he was 31, now he's 32. You continue to amaze.
Aside from Ramczyk and MAYBE Cam Robinson, there are no LTs that intrigue me. Garett Bolles is great, but he's 25.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
They FINALLY got free agency correct by allocating big dollars to young players still on the front nine. Doubt they go the back nine for big dollars.
Quote:
Sign Whitworth to a 2-3 year deal and put him at LT.
Sign Sebastian Vollmer to a 2-3 year deal for RT
Draft at least one tackle between rds 2-4 to groom such as Temple's Dion Dawkins, Troy's Antonio Garcia, Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport or Arkansas's Dan Skipper among others.
We only have Eli for a few more years. The Flowers LT project has failed, Hart isn't a starter and the offense suffered in part because of these two huge problems. We have the cap space. Get it done.
By many accounts, Hart was projected to be an NFL guard. He was only in at RT due to injury. He may still become a decent OG.
Beer Man I just don't see it. I don't think he plays tough enough to play guard. At least with Flowers I knew on running plays he would get push when the run went his way. Hart wasn't successful at either the run or pass imo.
That could have been written by literally anyone - there's nothing in that article that we all didn't know already.
That's not a shot at JR specifically, I realize you've got a lot of space to fill and it's a long offseason, I'm just saying that he did a lot of chest puffing yesterday, and filling out an article like this with something even remotely resembling insider opinion or something from people close to the team/game would go a long way towards validating it.
Whitworth would be a solid signing. You need someone who is not a question mark, and he is as close as you will get unless you trade for someone which I would not expect. In a later round you draft an LT with the physical skills who just isn't ready from a technique/experience perspective and you trust your coaches to get him ready in 2-3 years when Whitworth is done.
Ramczyk you don't know about his injury and long-term.
trading for a 35 yrs old Thomas would be good only if it was for a win now year, which isn't.
Maybe a unforeseen vet OT good one comes unexpectedly avail this off season.
I'd start with Leary of Dallas inside at G, but see how his health is first too.
Not much pickings to help this off season. Where OL is limited both Draft & FA..may have to wait til next off season to find one, and take care of an "extra" OLmen in a two-way TE which is rich in this draft
Ramczyk you don't know about his injury and long-term.
trading for a 35 yrs old Thomas would be good only if it was for a win now year, which isn't.
Maybe a unforeseen vet OT good one comes unexpectedly avail this off season.
I'd start with Leary of Dallas inside at G, but see how his health is first too.
Not much pickings to help this off season. Where OL is limited both Draft & FA..may have to wait til next off season to find one, and take care of an "extra" OLmen in a two-way TE which is rich in this draft
Robinson drops out of the first round in Jeremiah's mock
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
1) sometimes a beat reporter has to file a story when there's no news, because that's what his editor wants; and
2) reporters and editors can't assume that everybody is as well-informed about the Giants as a BBI reader; so
3) reporters write stuff they've written before, not because they're lazy, but because reporters and editors assume not everyone read the earlier stories, and if they did, readers may not remember them.
So sometimes you're going to read stuff that bores you or strikes you as a "puff piece," but you're not the intended audience.
Aside from Ramczyk and MAYBE Cam Robinson, there are no LTs that intrigue me. Garett Bolles is great, but he's 25.
If Garett Bolles is great, who cares??? OL play until an advanced age anyway, esp if they are advanced (or, as you say, "great"!)
“Is he the left tackle? Should he be in a different position? We will evaluate that. But I do think that he is a big, strong kid who has a chance to be a really good player."
Yes, Reese, you know he isn't a LT......and now you are hoping that he can just be an average RG/RT......not good for a #9 pick....
As for the piece itself, it is nothing but fluff.....Raanan probably got the idea by reading BBI....
OTs don't usually play as long as QBs.
Maybe dude is just not pro material from a brain, drive and desire standpoint.
I could see it. There were a few times where Flowers pulled out from his LT position this year. Plus, he's no slower than John Jerry who pulled just fine as our RG. Also, Flowers career arc reminds me of DJ Fluker who was a college LT that the Chargers eventually moved inside to RG when the experiment failed at tackle. The Chargers played in a WCO. Flowers and Fluker have a very similar build and athletic ability.
The bad news is the NY Giants will have a new Left Tackle in 2017.
The good news is Flowers is talented enough to find a place to start somewhere else on this o-line.
They need to get to work on some gameplans for a restructuring of the O-line...
If you walked away from this one informed, kudos to you.
I don't expect them to all be masterpieces, but this one was straight up time waster.
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has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Reese has a ton of work to do. Pugh may be another Beatty deal. He's been better than Beatty but too often hurt. And with so little depth they may over pay him for continuity. There isn't a guy on the OL
who is an no briane keeper. To have one of the worst OLs
Four years running is sad when you have a pocket like QB in Eli. They need 3 OLs out of the draft. 2 in the first four sounds Where I don't care and at least one FA starter. Reese has failed for 9 years at finding any. It should scare us fans.
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has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
I hear you but that's a tough assessment based on what happened this year, with the way he got hurt. That can happen to anyone on a football field at anytime.
Yes. You are clearly ahead of the curve here.
WR is not even close to the weakest position on this team. OL, RB, TE then WR. And i'd put defensive help ahead of WR assuming the lose one of JPP or Hankins or Robinson.
Which leaves me thinking EF will continue at LT, unless they somehow pull off a trade.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
Move Flowers to the right side. It's worth an effort in OTA's to see if he can handle RT, but I think he would be better suited at RG to protect against the speed on the outside. A draft prospect, Lamp, would likely be there for us to pick. Let the Flowers, draft pick, and Hart decide how the right side shakes out. For insurance, I would bring back Newhouse as depth.
Seem to recall Lomas Brown did OK as a veteran LT stop-gap. Maybe Whitworth could provide similar value.
If Garett Bolles is great, who cares??? OL play until an advanced age anyway, esp if they are advanced (or, as you say, "great"!)
Reese appears to love drafting VERY young guys. Eli Apple was 20 when they drafted him. Odell and Hankins are still 24 years-old. Flowers is still 22.
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In comment 13332107 Pete in MD said:
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has played both LT and RT. The article states he's only a RT. He actually played only this past season at RT and the other four of his career on the left side. He has been inconsistent on both sides from what I have read. He could be a calculated risk. Whitworth's age scares me. He's the type of player the Giants would sign and then he would all of a sudden become injury prone.
Whitworth doesn't scare me. He plays 16 games a season and has only been injured where he counldn't play in 2008 and 2013. You know who scares me is Pugh. The guy has only played 16 games his rookie year. Every year since then, he misses games. Yet, everyone on BBI wants to extend him.
Reese has a ton of work to do. Pugh may be another Beatty deal. He's been better than Beatty but too often hurt. And with so little depth they may over pay him for continuity. There isn't a guy on the OL
who is an no briane keeper. To have one of the worst OLs
Four years running is sad when you have a pocket like QB in Eli. They need 3 OLs out of the draft. 2 in the first four sounds Where I don't care and at least one FA starter. Reese has failed for 9 years at finding any. It should scare us fans.
Totally agree that Reese has missed on EVERY lineman he's taken except Richburg, he will be a good center for us. You can't ignore that Pugh was a first Rd draft pick that was supposed to be our RT initially but the scouts all said his arms were too short and now he's our LG, and as you mention he has not played 16 straight games so nice his rookie year. That said, Pugh should be paid like a starting guard and losing him would only hinder the team. I think getting Whitworth solves two major issues: a starting caliber LT to stay healthy and protect Eli and someone to mentor a young LT we draft either this year or next. Don't know if we can afford Whitworth and Reiff but that would solidify an OL Resse has treated like middle school science experiment....and he definely is no scientist.
Isn't Kalil a physical breakdown waiting to happen?
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Kalil-Pugh-Richburg-Zeitler-Flowers
Isn't Kalil a physical breakdown waiting to happen?
Pretty sure he had hip surgery this year and he had another hip surgery previously.
Anybody supporting Flowers line up there again for game 1 next season is over-thinking this one...
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Kalil-Pugh-Richburg-Zeitler-Flowers
Isn't Kalil a physical breakdown waiting to happen?
There's no real evidence to suggest he misses games or is constantly injured. He had the hip this past season and that's been about it. Started every game in career before that.
If he had two hip surgeries, THAT would be troubling
Me too
Link - ( New Window )
Agreed. I mean he's not that good to begin with, but it's literally the best of all possibilities...which is sad.
We discussed this a couple of days ago, Jon. Aside from his rookie year, Kalil hasn't been very good at all.
We also would benefit from a RB that is big and/or strong and runs with a 'tude. Despite this being a passing league, every time the Giants have won or been in the SB, they have had kick-ass RBs. Perkins is a decent player but we need a two-headed RB these days.
Also, another WR with some size would be nice, though we may be able to get by with what we have at WR.
The last time the New York Football Giants sent a tackle to the Pro Bowl was in 1994 with Jumbo Elliot.
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A lot of chest puffing on the other thread about inside sources and access we don't have. All well and good when it's about the salary cap (for which there are plenty of public sources to accurately pull apart data), but here's where some insider knowledge would come in handy.
Instead, a puff piece that tells us what we already know: Flowers has disappointed, the Giants tried to pick up a tackle (for the right side) unsuccessfully, and a list of the guys available this season.
The reality of the newspaper business is that
1) sometimes a beat reporter has to file a story when there's no news, because that's what his editor wants; and
2) reporters and editors can't assume that everybody is as well-informed about the Giants as a BBI reader; so
3) reporters write stuff they've written before, not because they're lazy, but because reporters and editors assume not everyone read the earlier stories, and if they did, readers may not remember them.
So sometimes you're going to read stuff that bores you or strikes you as a "puff piece," but you're not the intended audience.
All very fair points.
Raanan works for ESPN.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
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They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
“Is he the left tackle? Should he be in a different position? We will evaluate that. But I do think that he is a big, strong kid who has a chance to be a really good player."
Yes, Reese, you know he isn't a LT......and now you are hoping that he can just be an average RG/RT......not good for a #9 pick....
As for the piece itself, it is nothing but fluff.....Raanan probably got the idea by reading BBI....
Why do you bother to follow this team if you only read the most absolute negative interpretation? Or in this case, a more negative interpretation than the actual words even suggest?
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In comment 13332661 nicky43 said:
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They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
I'm absolutely in favor of pursuing Whitworth, but I wouldn't consider him a "spend big on a great" LT. He has a fantastic track record. And a dusty birth certificate. I would gladly - GLADLY - cheer his addition to the roster, but he's a stopgap. Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't consider a stopgap solution to be "spend big on a great LT."
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In comment 13333338 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 13332661 nicky43 said:
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They won't get the caliber they need in the draft where they pick.
Bite the bullet, spend big on a great LT, move Flowers to the right side (and pray).
This is not meant to disagree with your opinion, but who are those great LTs to even consider spending big on? It's an incredibly thin market.
Have you not bothered reading my comments on Whitworth? By all measures, he still plays at the pinnacle of his trade. He's healthy and doesn't miss games. Been voted to pro bowl with his recent play (2012, 2015, 2016) and will likely sign for 9/mil year.
I'm absolutely in favor of pursuing Whitworth, but I wouldn't consider him a "spend big on a great" LT. He has a fantastic track record. And a dusty birth certificate. I would gladly - GLADLY - cheer his addition to the roster, but he's a stopgap. Maybe it's just semantics, but I don't consider a stopgap solution to be "spend big on a great LT."
Got you. Just a matter of semantics. I admitted above that he would only be a stop gap signing. But I also realize that he would instantly be our best LT in 20+ years. For such a storied franchise in one of the largest markets, I find it troublesome that we continue to field such mediocrity with our OL.
I'd probably go draft again, picking Ramczyk in Rd 1 (if his hip is ok'd by doctors) or Bolles in Rd 2 or 3 (this may be the best option frankly).
What about Beatty? Is he done or was this season a redshirt season (so to speak)? If he can return to just what he was, which was an avg or slightly above average LT, that would help dramatically. We wouldn't have to use a draft pick.
I've been critical of the Giants for this, but it doesn't mean I've given up entirely on our OT's. They are way too young to write off altogether. Here's what I'm really hoping for.
1. The Giants sign a capable set of OT's - don't need to be all-pros.
2. Flowers/Hart win the starting jobs in camp and play well all season.
I've been critical of the Giants for this, but it doesn't mean I've given up entirely on our OT's. They are way too young to write off altogether. Here's what I'm really hoping for.
1. The Giants sign a capable set of OT's - don't need to be all-pros.
2. Flowers/Hart win the starting jobs in camp and play well all season.
I think it's more complicated than just open competition. The difference in salary between LT and RT is significant. How do you sign an FA and tell them it's open competition? If anything, you'd have to pay them like an LT and then slot them in at RT if they come up short. Then, you're paying a premium for a guy technically playing out of position.
With the benefit of hindsight it looks bad, but I think the Giants made the right call. They had Flowers, who had an up and down rookie year starting at LT from day one, and figured he would progress. They brought in vet tackles (both RT and LT), with the intent of having them start at RT and the backup option of sliding them over to the left should Flowers falter. They balked because of the difference in compensation.