and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
I think the Giants sign him for 4 years for 50-52M 32M guaranteed with 21M signing bonus. He is older than Vernon and has his hand so that does not get him the extra year or total potential dollars.
40.5 of OV contract is fully guaranteed. 12M is not fully guaranteed until 2018
The Giants can give him a larger signing bonus than OV and total guaranteed money can be more per year than OV and satisfy the ego
I do not see how you get better letting him go. Vernon is a better player when he is there. Hankins was a better player with him on that side. Ayers has never played as well as when he had JPP on the DL. Even with his hand, he gets the double team attention.
JPP and Hankins, but I am not sure that is possible considering the other needs the team has. If I had to choose one, it would be JPP and I agree four years with 30-35 million guaranteed.
1. There's a ton of cap space out there. Cleveland could easily blow any offer away to convince a few stars to sign there.
2. He's arguably the top pass rusher on the market. The only one close is Chandler Jones.
But like what was said, after JPP there aren't many free agent DE out there. Chandler Jones, Julius Peppers. The draft is the more affordable path to supplement our DL, both at DE and DT.
If JPP returns he will make less than OV but not by much. Other teams have deeper pockets. If a deal gets done it's before FA starts IMO.
Can't tag Hankins. The DT tag is $13.6M and he's no where near that level of a player. That type of money is for penetrating DTs.
Hankins contract ceiling should be what Snacks got ($9.25M per). And to be honest, I like Hankins, but if someone offers him $9M/year, they can have him. He's a notch below Snacks (at least) and something in the $7.5-8M range is probably the max I would go.
over the 17mil. that Vernon got,but I think if the Giants give him the same as Vernon he will stay.It would be better to get it done early and not bring the franchise tag into play,don't allow bruised egos to get involved.He wants to be here so just make a deal that everyone can live with.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
We need this guy. No matter the changes I fear our offense will be no better than middle of the pack in '18 and the team's identity (tough on defense, good enough on offense) is at stake.
We can be a dominant defense with him going forward. Haven't even seen the best yet.
Without him I fear more floundering. A regression to the mean.
unless you want to forget about the OL. Remember Jerry and Newhouse are not under contract so there is no depth at OL. The TE and RB position needs to be addressed. Some of this can come from the draft but rookie OL in front of a veteran qb makes no sense you can't expect Eli to go through another season with people draped all over him. We need depth and starters. Franchising JPP at 17 mil will not help the Giants. Even cutting Cruz doesn't add enouth. Cleveland will be bidding up everybody just like Jacksonville did last year. There will be a lot of huge contracts this year.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
I tend to agree, the tag number is just too high for a team that can be in SB consideration if they add atleast 1 legit piece on offense (OT, TE, or WR).
Its also one thing to disagree with it, but to say that would be fools is...foolish. I'm a massive JPP fan but if they can't work on a longterm deal then I'd like to move on from him, its just too much cap room.
JPP was the most dominant DE on the Giants
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
Chip, amazing how many people don't understand that.
Beyond the crippling cap ramifications, we promised him last year was the Prove It deal. How you could look the guy in the face again and expect him to play on another 1-year deal, GTFO.
We've got a homegrown, dominant DE on our hands. It's our favorite position - 2-way 43 DE. It's pretty simple - pay the guy.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
And just hope he takes it, because IMO he showed he is a better player than OV last year.
JPP was the most dominant DE on the Giants
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
That's a brutal assessment of JPP. 1 trick pony suggests you are tallying his sack numbers, being dis-satisfied, and coming to a ridiculous conclusion.
He's the best run stuffing DE in football and if he isn't the best (I don't have a metric to prove it, just going off the eye test and our overall run D) then he's top 2 or 3. He also led the league last season in pressures per game and this year was among the league leaders before getting hurt.
JPP against the Packers. Vernon plays better with him, they feed off each other. We still probably lose that game since our offense put up a dud, but I think you'd be lying to your self if you didn't think accounting for JPP would have caused a shift in approach from the Packers.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
RE: Chip, amazing how many people don't understand that.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
I could see the $17, but I think you're WAY high on the guarantee.
I lean towards paying him bc of the reasons already mentioned. If the Giants add another pass rusher in the draft along w JPP, the defense could be other worldly in '17.
Sign Hankins/JPP, add a pass rusher in the draft. Rotate pass rusher w/ JPP to keep him fresh, use pass rusher for Hankins on passing downs. Keeps defense fresh while maximizing rush.
You've got to re-sign JPP first. If it's then feasible to give Hank $6-$7M per, fine. He's a solid starter, nothing more. You can't pay him like he's an impact player.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
is willing to take a fair deal to remain with the Giants they can keep him. If he's looking to get top dollar on the open market, he's gone. I don't think Reese can or will outbid the league for him.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
JPP may be more proven, but the team figures to use the injury history. Remember, they want to pay for future performance, not past. This isn't the JPP of 2011 version, no sense in backing up the Brinks for him.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
Can't see anyone giving him crazy money due to all the work effort questions that have dogged him everywhere. A 3-4 year deal worth $20-25M is possible though ($6-7M AAV). I'd keep the guarantees low though.
JPP arguably outplayed Vernon this year.
The Giants set the market last year with vernon's deal.
This is pretty simple stuff and it's unfortunate but true. JPP is going to make what Vernon made if not more. Calais Campbell's made 14 million+ last year and 15 million+ this year, he is 2 or 3 years older than JPP. His worth is set by previous contracts, age, production, and the money chasing him (huge money out there, very few good FAs). JPP will average somewhere between 14 and 18 a year is my guess.
Hankins I may have overestimated his worth a few times on here but again it's likely at least what Joseph currently gets and at most somewhere below Suh or Cox. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hankins make 10-11 a year on average.
everyone brings up stats, when discussing a player....
But some of the stats, should have more meaning.....
Like "pressures"....there are pressures and there are pressures....so what if a guy gets a pressure, but the QB still gets pos yards from a run or completion....if a defensive lineman pressures a qb into an incomplete pass, that is totally different......but the stat does not differentiate that.....
Same with run defense......how do you stat that? For a DE, you count the number of running plays that go between him and the DT, or around his end....and then you separate those into pos and neg yard plays.....
All the Talk about JPP having pressures and being stout against the run, mean nothing without stats to back it up, and unfortunately, there are no such stats.....so, basically it is what the eye sees....
I have seen JPP disappear against good teams....I have seen him blocked one on one by TE's.....he does not have a variety of pass rush moves.....have seen too many qb's run around his side....yes he is a good DE.....but I don't think we can afford him.....this could be his last big contract, and he is not going to give a hometown discount......there will be some GM out there that may think he is the missing piece and will pay him....but we won't be able to match it....our top 5 players command almost 50% of the cap.....JPP? Hankins? Robinson? FA OLmen? FA WR? Depth? We can't afford it.....
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
everyone brings up stats, when discussing a player....
But some of the stats, should have more meaning.....
Like "pressures"....there are pressures and there are pressures....so what if a guy gets a pressure, but the QB still gets pos yards from a run or completion....if a defensive lineman pressures a qb into an incomplete pass, that is totally different......but the stat does not differentiate that.....
Same with run defense......how do you stat that? For a DE, you count the number of running plays that go between him and the DT, or around his end....and then you separate those into pos and neg yard plays.....
All the Talk about JPP having pressures and being stout against the run, mean nothing without stats to back it up, and unfortunately, there are no such stats.....so, basically it is what the eye sees....
I have seen JPP disappear against good teams....I have seen him blocked one on one by TE's.....he does not have a variety of pass rush moves.....have seen too many qb's run around his side....yes he is a good DE.....but I don't think we can afford him.....this could be his last big contract, and he is not going to give a hometown discount......there will be some GM out there that may think he is the missing piece and will pay him....but we won't be able to match it....our top 5 players command almost 50% of the cap.....JPP? Hankins? Robinson? FA OLmen? FA WR? Depth? We can't afford it.....
you really don't have any idea what he will be offered from us/the market, and what his feeling on staying in NY are. Just be honest, you don't, and neither do I.
Sure, someone can offer him a massive deal but it isn't some given. Most other teams will have the same health reservations, its not like no one else has intel. And despite what he says publicly, he may very well want to stay right here, how could any of us know?
I've seen it with my own two eyes. There was also a year where Watt racked up double digit sacks against awful competition, no one cared. Its such a flawed way of looking at this.
Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
If I had to guess, I'd say he ends up closer to $7.5-8M per year. His production is arguably as good, if not better, than Linval's was when he hit FA and Linval got (IIRC) 5 yrs/$30M. So you've gotta figure a decent amount of inflation since then, especially after the Snacks deal.
Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
If I had to guess, I'd say he ends up closer to $7.5-8M per year. His production is arguably as good, if not better, than Linval's was when he hit FA and Linval got (IIRC) 5 yrs/$30M. So you've gotta figure a decent amount of inflation since then, especially after the Snacks deal.
My only issue is that Linval was our best DT. Right now Hankins is playing next to our best DT and I don't think that's something that will be glossed over in negotiations. In the end it may not mean much, but it definitely could effect his ceiling price. Teams will bring up the player he was in 2015 and hedge that with how much they think Snacks helps his case. I know I would if I was a GM trying to assess the situation.
I think the Linval contract is probably his floor, but I'm not sure it will go too much higher even adjusting for rising contracts. But all its takes is one, so who knows.
the Giants will face RE: Hankins is he's not a very notable 3T, but he's got much more value as a 1. I can see a team needing a run stuffing NT paying him more than NYG and letting him get as big as he wants.
which is basically how I got to my $7.5M per year estimate for Hankins (roughly the middle of the two AAVs).
One thing that could potentially push Hankins more towards the Snacks deal is that he has shown more pass rush ability than either Linval or Snacks did when they were FAs. Granted it's been 3 years, but Hankins did finish with 7 sacks in a season once. I love Snacks, but he doesn't even have 7 for his career!
the Giants will face RE: Hankins is he's not a very notable 3T, but he's got much more value as a 1. I can see a team needing a run stuffing NT paying him more than NYG and letting him get as big as he wants.
Maybe, but until the Giants did it with Snacks last year, run stuffing DTs almost never got big money. And even then, Snacks is making less than half what Fletcher Cox just signed for.
Say you want about his abilities and production, which are certainly elite, he won't get Vernon guaranteed money because he's not as clean a player heading into UFA. Vernon was virtually spotless. Forget the hand which for the sake of posterity we assume it's fine going forward-- jpp has the back and the sports hernia. He's also played three more seasons in the NFL than vernon did prior to signing here. Three more years of erosion and two major injuries will impact guaranteed money every single time. People forget how clean and safe Vernon was last year. That's why he was paid the loot.
How about a bucket of water. This guy has had one or two good years in the league since he was drafted. Last year he had five or six good games sandwiched between five or six mediocre games and another four or five on the shelf. The year before he blew off half his hand screwing with fireworks. And he thinks that entitles him to a big payday? Screw him. Offer him what's reasonable and rational. If he doesn't like it, let him walk. His career has not been consistent enough to warrant paying him what he wants and somehow thinks he's worth. Is there anyone who can tell me what we'll get from him next year based on his track record? So how can you pay big money for that?
The hand and age are enough to prevent him from OV money
Fuckin NyKDupeAllDay.
How much?
40.5 of OV contract is fully guaranteed. 12M is not fully guaranteed until 2018
The Giants can give him a larger signing bonus than OV and total guaranteed money can be more per year than OV and satisfy the ego
I do not see how you get better letting him go. Vernon is a better player when he is there. Hankins was a better player with him on that side. Ayers has never played as well as when he had JPP on the DL. Even with his hand, he gets the double team attention.
2. He's arguably the top pass rusher on the market. The only one close is Chandler Jones.
If JPP returns he will make less than OV but not by much. Other teams have deeper pockets. If a deal gets done it's before FA starts IMO.
I can't see that, the tag for DT's is around $14 million; he'd cost half that per year.
Hankins contract ceiling should be what Snacks got ($9.25M per). And to be honest, I like Hankins, but if someone offers him $9M/year, they can have him. He's a notch below Snacks (at least) and something in the $7.5-8M range is probably the max I would go.
That's what Papa, Dotino and Schmeelk were discussing on the podcast
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
JPP claims he will not play under that tag. Really want an unhappy player?
We can be a dominant defense with him going forward. Haven't even seen the best yet.
Without him I fear more floundering. A regression to the mean.
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franchise JPP they're fools.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
I tend to agree, the tag number is just too high for a team that can be in SB consideration if they add atleast 1 legit piece on offense (OT, TE, or WR).
Its also one thing to disagree with it, but to say that would be fools is...foolish. I'm a massive JPP fan but if they can't work on a longterm deal then I'd like to move on from him, its just too much cap room.
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
We've got a homegrown, dominant DE on our hands. It's our favorite position - 2-way 43 DE. It's pretty simple - pay the guy.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
And just hope he takes it, because IMO he showed he is a better player than OV last year.
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He's a FA at the perfect time. DE availability after him is paper thin..Talented ones, that is
Only in the FA market. The draft is deep at the DE position (not to mention a few LBs that can also get after the QB)
That's my understanding
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
That's a brutal assessment of JPP. 1 trick pony suggests you are tallying his sack numbers, being dis-satisfied, and coming to a ridiculous conclusion.
He's the best run stuffing DE in football and if he isn't the best (I don't have a metric to prove it, just going off the eye test and our overall run D) then he's top 2 or 3. He also led the league last season in pressures per game and this year was among the league leaders before getting hurt.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
I could see the $17, but I think you're WAY high on the guarantee.
Sign Hankins/JPP, add a pass rusher in the draft. Rotate pass rusher w/ JPP to keep him fresh, use pass rusher for Hankins on passing downs. Keeps defense fresh while maximizing rush.
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wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
If you're Jax or Cle, do you go 5 yrs/$85M? $90M?
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
JPP is much more proven though.
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In comment 13334039 area junc said:
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
JPP is much more proven though.
But in the 4th and 5th year of the contract that may be "too" proven.
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In comment 13333856 AcidTest said:
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wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
And not quite as good.
JPP may be more proven, but the team figures to use the injury history. Remember, they want to pay for future performance, not past. This isn't the JPP of 2011 version, no sense in backing up the Brinks for him.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
Can't see anyone giving him crazy money due to all the work effort questions that have dogged him everywhere. A 3-4 year deal worth $20-25M is possible though ($6-7M AAV). I'd keep the guarantees low though.
The Giants set the market last year with vernon's deal.
This is pretty simple stuff and it's unfortunate but true. JPP is going to make what Vernon made if not more. Calais Campbell's made 14 million+ last year and 15 million+ this year, he is 2 or 3 years older than JPP. His worth is set by previous contracts, age, production, and the money chasing him (huge money out there, very few good FAs). JPP will average somewhere between 14 and 18 a year is my guess.
Hankins I may have overestimated his worth a few times on here but again it's likely at least what Joseph currently gets and at most somewhere below Suh or Cox. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hankins make 10-11 a year on average.
But some of the stats, should have more meaning.....
Like "pressures"....there are pressures and there are pressures....so what if a guy gets a pressure, but the QB still gets pos yards from a run or completion....if a defensive lineman pressures a qb into an incomplete pass, that is totally different......but the stat does not differentiate that.....
Same with run defense......how do you stat that? For a DE, you count the number of running plays that go between him and the DT, or around his end....and then you separate those into pos and neg yard plays.....
All the Talk about JPP having pressures and being stout against the run, mean nothing without stats to back it up, and unfortunately, there are no such stats.....so, basically it is what the eye sees....
I have seen JPP disappear against good teams....I have seen him blocked one on one by TE's.....he does not have a variety of pass rush moves.....have seen too many qb's run around his side....yes he is a good DE.....but I don't think we can afford him.....this could be his last big contract, and he is not going to give a hometown discount......there will be some GM out there that may think he is the missing piece and will pay him....but we won't be able to match it....our top 5 players command almost 50% of the cap.....JPP? Hankins? Robinson? FA OLmen? FA WR? Depth? We can't afford it.....
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In comment 13333856 AcidTest said:
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wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
But some of the stats, should have more meaning.....
Like "pressures"....there are pressures and there are pressures....so what if a guy gets a pressure, but the QB still gets pos yards from a run or completion....if a defensive lineman pressures a qb into an incomplete pass, that is totally different......but the stat does not differentiate that.....
Same with run defense......how do you stat that? For a DE, you count the number of running plays that go between him and the DT, or around his end....and then you separate those into pos and neg yard plays.....
All the Talk about JPP having pressures and being stout against the run, mean nothing without stats to back it up, and unfortunately, there are no such stats.....so, basically it is what the eye sees....
I have seen JPP disappear against good teams....I have seen him blocked one on one by TE's.....he does not have a variety of pass rush moves.....have seen too many qb's run around his side....yes he is a good DE.....but I don't think we can afford him.....this could be his last big contract, and he is not going to give a hometown discount......there will be some GM out there that may think he is the missing piece and will pay him....but we won't be able to match it....our top 5 players command almost 50% of the cap.....JPP? Hankins? Robinson? FA OLmen? FA WR? Depth? We can't afford it.....
you really don't have any idea what he will be offered from us/the market, and what his feeling on staying in NY are. Just be honest, you don't, and neither do I.
Sure, someone can offer him a massive deal but it isn't some given. Most other teams will have the same health reservations, its not like no one else has intel. And despite what he says publicly, he may very well want to stay right here, how could any of us know?
Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
If I had to guess, I'd say he ends up closer to $7.5-8M per year. His production is arguably as good, if not better, than Linval's was when he hit FA and Linval got (IIRC) 5 yrs/$30M. So you've gotta figure a decent amount of inflation since then, especially after the Snacks deal.
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Completely agree. I think he's in that $6.5/$7 million per year range and I'll gladly have him back at that price.
If I had to guess, I'd say he ends up closer to $7.5-8M per year. His production is arguably as good, if not better, than Linval's was when he hit FA and Linval got (IIRC) 5 yrs/$30M. So you've gotta figure a decent amount of inflation since then, especially after the Snacks deal.
My only issue is that Linval was our best DT. Right now Hankins is playing next to our best DT and I don't think that's something that will be glossed over in negotiations. In the end it may not mean much, but it definitely could effect his ceiling price. Teams will bring up the player he was in 2015 and hedge that with how much they think Snacks helps his case. I know I would if I was a GM trying to assess the situation.
I think the Linval contract is probably his floor, but I'm not sure it will go too much higher even adjusting for rising contracts. But all its takes is one, so who knows.
One thing that could potentially push Hankins more towards the Snacks deal is that he has shown more pass rush ability than either Linval or Snacks did when they were FAs. Granted it's been 3 years, but Hankins did finish with 7 sacks in a season once. I love Snacks, but he doesn't even have 7 for his career!
Maybe, but until the Giants did it with Snacks last year, run stuffing DTs almost never got big money. And even then, Snacks is making less than half what Fletcher Cox just signed for.