and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
I think the Giants sign him for 4 years for 50-52M 32M guaranteed with 21M signing bonus. He is older than Vernon and has his hand so that does not get him the extra year or total potential dollars.
40.5 of OV contract is fully guaranteed. 12M is not fully guaranteed until 2018
The Giants can give him a larger signing bonus than OV and total guaranteed money can be more per year than OV and satisfy the ego
I do not see how you get better letting him go. Vernon is a better player when he is there. Hankins was a better player with him on that side. Ayers has never played as well as when he had JPP on the DL. Even with his hand, he gets the double team attention.
JPP and Hankins, but I am not sure that is possible considering the other needs the team has. If I had to choose one, it would be JPP and I agree four years with 30-35 million guaranteed.
1. There's a ton of cap space out there. Cleveland could easily blow any offer away to convince a few stars to sign there.
2. He's arguably the top pass rusher on the market. The only one close is Chandler Jones.
But like what was said, after JPP there aren't many free agent DE out there. Chandler Jones, Julius Peppers. The draft is the more affordable path to supplement our DL, both at DE and DT.
If JPP returns he will make less than OV but not by much. Other teams have deeper pockets. If a deal gets done it's before FA starts IMO.
Can't tag Hankins. The DT tag is $13.6M and he's no where near that level of a player. That type of money is for penetrating DTs.
Hankins contract ceiling should be what Snacks got ($9.25M per). And to be honest, I like Hankins, but if someone offers him $9M/year, they can have him. He's a notch below Snacks (at least) and something in the $7.5-8M range is probably the max I would go.
over the 17mil. that Vernon got,but I think if the Giants give him the same as Vernon he will stay.It would be better to get it done early and not bring the franchise tag into play,don't allow bruised egos to get involved.He wants to be here so just make a deal that everyone can live with.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
We need this guy. No matter the changes I fear our offense will be no better than middle of the pack in '18 and the team's identity (tough on defense, good enough on offense) is at stake.
We can be a dominant defense with him going forward. Haven't even seen the best yet.
Without him I fear more floundering. A regression to the mean.
unless you want to forget about the OL. Remember Jerry and Newhouse are not under contract so there is no depth at OL. The TE and RB position needs to be addressed. Some of this can come from the draft but rookie OL in front of a veteran qb makes no sense you can't expect Eli to go through another season with people draped all over him. We need depth and starters. Franchising JPP at 17 mil will not help the Giants. Even cutting Cruz doesn't add enouth. Cleveland will be bidding up everybody just like Jacksonville did last year. There will be a lot of huge contracts this year.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
I tend to agree, the tag number is just too high for a team that can be in SB consideration if they add atleast 1 legit piece on offense (OT, TE, or WR).
Its also one thing to disagree with it, but to say that would be fools is...foolish. I'm a massive JPP fan but if they can't work on a longterm deal then I'd like to move on from him, its just too much cap room.
JPP was the most dominant DE on the Giants
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
Chip, amazing how many people don't understand that.
Beyond the crippling cap ramifications, we promised him last year was the Prove It deal. How you could look the guy in the face again and expect him to play on another 1-year deal, GTFO.
We've got a homegrown, dominant DE on our hands. It's our favorite position - 2-way 43 DE. It's pretty simple - pay the guy.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
And just hope he takes it, because IMO he showed he is a better player than OV last year.
JPP was the most dominant DE on the Giants
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
That's a brutal assessment of JPP. 1 trick pony suggests you are tallying his sack numbers, being dis-satisfied, and coming to a ridiculous conclusion.
He's the best run stuffing DE in football and if he isn't the best (I don't have a metric to prove it, just going off the eye test and our overall run D) then he's top 2 or 3. He also led the league last season in pressures per game and this year was among the league leaders before getting hurt.
JPP against the Packers. Vernon plays better with him, they feed off each other. We still probably lose that game since our offense put up a dud, but I think you'd be lying to your self if you didn't think accounting for JPP would have caused a shift in approach from the Packers.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
RE: Chip, amazing how many people don't understand that.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
I could see the $17, but I think you're WAY high on the guarantee.
I lean towards paying him bc of the reasons already mentioned. If the Giants add another pass rusher in the draft along w JPP, the defense could be other worldly in '17.
Sign Hankins/JPP, add a pass rusher in the draft. Rotate pass rusher w/ JPP to keep him fresh, use pass rusher for Hankins on passing downs. Keeps defense fresh while maximizing rush.
You've got to re-sign JPP first. If it's then feasible to give Hank $6-$7M per, fine. He's a solid starter, nothing more. You can't pay him like he's an impact player.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
is willing to take a fair deal to remain with the Giants they can keep him. If he's looking to get top dollar on the open market, he's gone. I don't think Reese can or will outbid the league for him.
wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
JPP may be more proven, but the team figures to use the injury history. Remember, they want to pay for future performance, not past. This isn't the JPP of 2011 version, no sense in backing up the Brinks for him.
The hand and age are enough to prevent him from OV money
Fuckin NyKDupeAllDay.
How much?
40.5 of OV contract is fully guaranteed. 12M is not fully guaranteed until 2018
The Giants can give him a larger signing bonus than OV and total guaranteed money can be more per year than OV and satisfy the ego
I do not see how you get better letting him go. Vernon is a better player when he is there. Hankins was a better player with him on that side. Ayers has never played as well as when he had JPP on the DL. Even with his hand, he gets the double team attention.
2. He's arguably the top pass rusher on the market. The only one close is Chandler Jones.
If JPP returns he will make less than OV but not by much. Other teams have deeper pockets. If a deal gets done it's before FA starts IMO.
I can't see that, the tag for DT's is around $14 million; he'd cost half that per year.
Hankins contract ceiling should be what Snacks got ($9.25M per). And to be honest, I like Hankins, but if someone offers him $9M/year, they can have him. He's a notch below Snacks (at least) and something in the $7.5-8M range is probably the max I would go.
That's what Papa, Dotino and Schmeelk were discussing on the podcast
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
JPP claims he will not play under that tag. Really want an unhappy player?
We can be a dominant defense with him going forward. Haven't even seen the best yet.
Without him I fear more floundering. A regression to the mean.
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franchise JPP they're fools.
Nope, let him walk if we can't sign him to a long term deal..17 million that is a hard hit against the cap, a cap we desperately need available to improve the O, cannot be amortized..The D with Okwara, OO and Wynn(and whomever we draft) can be more than fine. As good as with JPP? Probably not, but they don't have to be..The OL, TE and RB need to be addressed more than we NEED to keep JPP, imo
I tend to agree, the tag number is just too high for a team that can be in SB consideration if they add atleast 1 legit piece on offense (OT, TE, or WR).
Its also one thing to disagree with it, but to say that would be fools is...foolish. I'm a massive JPP fan but if they can't work on a longterm deal then I'd like to move on from him, its just too much cap room.
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
We've got a homegrown, dominant DE on our hands. It's our favorite position - 2-way 43 DE. It's pretty simple - pay the guy.
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
And just hope he takes it, because IMO he showed he is a better player than OV last year.
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He's a FA at the perfect time. DE availability after him is paper thin..Talented ones, that is
Only in the FA market. The draft is deep at the DE position (not to mention a few LBs that can also get after the QB)
That's my understanding
Mason : 1:36 am : link : reply
and one of the NFL's best DEs this season. If not for injury he was headed to the pro bowl. He has already proven that his hand isn't an issue. Reese just has to pay him.
Just the Chicago and Cleveland games?
I wouldn't invest near Vernon money in a one trick pony that can't stay on the field....
That's a brutal assessment of JPP. 1 trick pony suggests you are tallying his sack numbers, being dis-satisfied, and coming to a ridiculous conclusion.
He's the best run stuffing DE in football and if he isn't the best (I don't have a metric to prove it, just going off the eye test and our overall run D) then he's top 2 or 3. He also led the league last season in pressures per game and this year was among the league leaders before getting hurt.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
As to max $$$ - I think you've got it right: $17M.
This is all rehashing now, but I expect his deal to be structured including last year. Something like 4 years, $68M, $42.5M guarateed. If you include last year's 1/$10M, that's 5 years, $78M, $52.5M guaranteed - almost exactly what OV got.
I could see the $17, but I think you're WAY high on the guarantee.
Sign Hankins/JPP, add a pass rusher in the draft. Rotate pass rusher w/ JPP to keep him fresh, use pass rusher for Hankins on passing downs. Keeps defense fresh while maximizing rush.
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wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
If you're Jax or Cle, do you go 5 yrs/$85M? $90M?
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
JPP is much more proven though.
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In comment 13334039 area junc said:
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
JPP is much more proven though.
But in the 4th and 5th year of the contract that may be "too" proven.
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In comment 13333856 AcidTest said:
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wouldn't hate paying JPP $17M, but I wouldn't do it. 28. Back injuries. Missing most of his right hand. But I think it's moot, because somebody is going to make an incredible offer that is far beyond what even his most die hard supporters agree he should be paid. Same for Hankins. I have a feeling we lose both in FA.
I think Hankins will come at a reasonable contract. He doesn't rush the passer, there's only so much others will be willing to pay. At $9 million you are expecting a top shelf DT, unfortunately he isn't. He's very good, and works really well in this defense, I just don't think most other teams will be willing to throw big cash at a guy who' can't get to the passer on his own. He's also not as good as Snacks who was purely a run stuffer with the Jets (with us too but he's definitely better than he was there).
The DT market is weird. There are basically 3 tiers: the elite penetrating DTs (Suh, Atkins, Cox, M Jackson etc) who set the franchise tag level and can earn $14M+ per year, the elite run stuffers like Snacks around the $9-10M per year range, and then everyone else (IIRC, there's a big drop down to AAV of $6M here).
I can't see Hankins making $9M. If someone offers him that, then I wish him the best.
Speaking of penetrating DTs, what kind of money does Nick Fairly get? He's had an up and down career with three different teams but he is coming off a season with 6.5 sacks (tied for 5th among DTs) and 22 QB pressures. The same sack total as Fletcher Cox. He's coming off of consecutive one year deals in the $3-4M range but should command more this off-season. 28 years old.
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It's based on Vernon's contract. That's the reality.
Vernon was younger and healthier.
And not quite as good.
JPP may be more proven, but the team figures to use the injury history. Remember, they want to pay for future performance, not past. This isn't the JPP of 2011 version, no sense in backing up the Brinks for him.