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NFT: Knicks Chat: KOQ/Spurs fit?

DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 9:15 am
Gasol is going to miss significant time with a bone break so the Spurs reportedly are looking for a big via trade. I'm not sure KOQ for what is currently the 29th pick in the draft is even a deal I would make.

-Booker 21, 8 and 7 last night

-Jokic 35, 12 and 4 with 2 blocks... beast

-Old friend David Lee 10 and 16

-Towns 37 12 and 5

-DeAndre Jordan 29 and 16 (averaging 18 and 18 over his last 5 games)

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Lol center??  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 5:33 pm : link
With no rim protection or rebounding?

He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender.

Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games.

I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well.
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/22/2017 5:44 pm : link
Added, the Bulls may not keep guard Dwyane Wade past this season, according to Hoops Rumors. Wade has a player option to become a free agent next season. If the Bulls opt to rebuild, Wade could opt to join the Cavaliers or Knicks via free agency.
Link - ( New Window )
I'm wondering where wade would even go  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 5:54 pm : link
If Parker and ginobili retire next season I'd love to see SA get him.
RE: Lol center??  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 5:54 pm : link
In comment 13335841 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
With no rim protection or rebounding?

He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender.

Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games.

I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well.


Frank as a featured player would be Brook Lopez.
RE: .  
nygiants16 : 1/22/2017 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13335854 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Added, the Bulls may not keep guard Dwyane Wade past this season, according to Hoops Rumors. Wade has a player option to become a free agent next season. If the Bulls opt to rebuild, Wade could opt to join the Cavaliers or Knicks via free agency. Link - ( New Window )


draft a point guard, let rose go and sign wade lol...
RE: I'm wondering where wade would even go  
nygiants16 : 1/22/2017 5:57 pm : link
In comment 13335861 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
If Parker and ginobili retire next season I'd love to see SA get him.


at this point he would probably go play with one of his friends
Wade  
DanMetroMan : 1/22/2017 6:12 pm : link
left Miami over money, now he's turning down 23.8 million to become a FA? I find it hard to believe.
RE: RE: Lol center??  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 6:18 pm : link
In comment 13335863 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13335841 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


With no rim protection or rebounding?

He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender.

Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games.

I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well.



Frank as a featured player would be Brook Lopez.


So the best player on the worst team in the NBA?

Frank on a contending team is someone you give 20 minutes off the bench a night to play stretch 4 and keep the offense going (assuming he one day becomes an even league average NBA 3 point shooter). He's not even as good of a 3 point shooter as brook Lopez. Having him matchup against Howard, Whiteside, Cousins, Gobert, Draymond, etc. is the equivalent of bringing a chiseled wooden stick to a nuclear war.

Right now he looks a lot closer to a poor man's Dario saric than Brook Lopez. Dario can at least shoot, rebound and keep up with PFs on defense, unlike Frank.
Frank  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 6:51 pm : link
isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets.
RE: Frank  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 7:01 pm : link
In comment 13335970 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets.


He's not a 5 when he's as good as a rebounder as Carmelo Anthony, less nimble than Kevin love and weaker than KP.
RE: RE: Frank  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 7:02 pm : link
In comment 13336003 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13335970 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets.



He's not a 5 when he's as good as a rebounder as Carmelo Anthony, less nimble than Kevin love and weaker than KP.


Well for starters, he should be less nimble than Love. He's a center.

And the other two are wrong.
His rebounding numbers  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 7:15 pm : link
Both regular and advanced are right on par with Carmelo's.

If it was so obvious that he's some all star at the center position but Barry playable at the 4 you think the Hornets wouldn't have needed to sign Roy fucking hibbert.

Frank had way too many flaws to be a lottery pick in the draft and he's shown absolutely nothing to prove me otherwise.
Lets  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 7:29 pm : link
not pretend like the Hornets are some super well run organization.

It's okay, take the L on this one. I don't really have any interest in talking about Big Frank anymore.

I'll leave you with this:

Will do  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 7:35 pm : link
If he's a true 5 he's not meant for this age of small ball lineups anyways.

Loved him in college, have nothing against him, just don't think he's a starter on a .500+ team.
People have weird crushes on bad  
Sgrcts : 1/22/2017 7:48 pm : link
players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.
RE: People have weird crushes on bad  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 7:51 pm : link
In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.


RE: People have weird crushes on bad  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 7:53 pm : link
In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.


Well Jon went to Wisco so I get his allegiance to Frank.
Yeah im biased as fuck.  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 7:56 pm : link
Met Frank a few times too. Good dude.
RE: Yeah im biased as fuck.  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13336109 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
Met Frank a few times too. Good dude.


Interned with a dude last summer who knew frank and had a friend who was pretty much best friends with him. He was friends with him on snapchat and he'd be test driving Porsches and rapping on weekdays like within a week of being drafted. Dudes living the life no doubt.
RE: People have weird crushes on bad  
dep026 : 1/22/2017 8:36 pm : link
In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.


Yeah like ricky rubio.
I'd like to go back to the Brook Lopez point.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/22/2017 8:43 pm : link
I'm not clear on if that is a negative or a positive comparison.
Frank cannot hold Lopez's jock  
hitdog42 : 1/22/2017 9:22 pm : link
Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion.
Kris Dunn  
dep026 : 1/22/2017 9:30 pm : link
10 points, 8 boards, 9 assists, 3 steals. +14 on the floor. Made both 3s. Twolves win.

Let the changing of the (point) guard begin.
RE: Frank cannot hold Lopez's jock  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 9:34 pm : link
In comment 13336249 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion.


Seems like a weird comment. He's an NBA player. That's why he's in an NBA discussion.

And his game is similar to Brook's. So chill.
RE: I'd like to go back to the Brook Lopez point.  
Jon in NYC : 1/22/2017 9:35 pm : link
In comment 13336170 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I'm not clear on if that is a negative or a positive comparison.


I don't value Brook highly as a player, but his game reminds me of Franks if he was given more opportunities.
Brook Lopez is certainly a fair comparison  
giantsfan44ab : 1/22/2017 11:55 pm : link
My views on Brook aren't that dissimilar. I don't think he's anything more than if Enes Kanter couldn't rebound and was the #1 scoring option on a team. Frank is certainly a smarter player and better passer.

If not for Willy I'd have entertained the idea of acquiring Frank to pair next to KP long term.
RE: Kris Dunn  
giantsfan44ab : 1/23/2017 12:02 am : link
In comment 13336269 dep026 said:
Quote:
10 points, 8 boards, 9 assists, 3 steals. +14 on the floor. Made both 3s. Twolves win.

Let the changing of the (point) guard begin.


Ironically Ricky Rubio would be a fantastic fit in Denver if he ever had one. Whenever they don't have Faried on the court they have 4 guys who can shoot 3s. Clear upgrade over Mudiay (although at this point in time who wouldn't be?).

Unfortunately they're gonna probably see this Mudiay project all the way through
RE: RE: Frank cannot hold Lopez's jock  
chris r : 1/23/2017 12:47 am : link
In comment 13336280 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13336249 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion.



Seems like a weird comment. He's an NBA player. That's why he's in an NBA discussion.

Do you watch the NBA?

And his game is similar to Brook's. So chill.
They actually aren't close to the same player  
hitdog42 : 1/23/2017 5:31 am : link
Lopez is a bad rebounder that is where the comp starts and ends

One shoots 59 percent career and has one of the few legit post up games for a center in the NBA. The other shoots 40 percent

Lopez is actually a better 3 pt shooter now.
One blocks shots the other blocks nothing .

Their games don't remotely resemble each other .

* 50 percent shooter  
hitdog42 : 1/23/2017 6:14 am : link
Not 59 obviously
Lot  
Jon in NYC : 1/23/2017 7:08 am : link
of Frank haters. This is all he has to say to you:



Brook can't touch those moves.
I am not a Frank fan  
dep026 : 1/23/2017 8:26 am : link
and maybe that has to do with how he is used. But Lopez is one of those less than average players who put up decent numbers. Whoopie, he can shoot 3s now. He is exposed in pick and rolls, cant rebound for shit, and doesnt make his teammates better.
a selective stat follower you are  
hitdog42 : 1/23/2017 9:03 am : link
also a stater of opinions as facts...

why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player...
averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him.

Around the league-  
DanMetroMan : 1/23/2017 9:20 am : link
- Not going to beat the Warriors when Curry/Thompson go 14/22 from 3

- I wasn't a big Aaron Gordon guy in college/draft, came around a bit/bought the hype despite being a tweener but he's really been disappointing this season. I'm guessing in part due to the roster

- Hasn't played a ton but I think the Warriors found a real gem in McCaw.

-Brandon Ingram... 1 rebound in 36 minutes, 0 assists...awful... -45 for the game

-Jokic last 5 26.2 11.2 and 3.4... stud

-Towns 32 12 and 7 (29 and 13 last 5 games! 2 blocks, 3 assists, he's almost taken for granted at this point)

-Dunn 10, 9 and 8... bye Rubio lol
RE: a selective stat follower you are  
dep026 : 1/23/2017 9:32 am : link
In comment 13336586 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
also a stater of opinions as facts...

why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player...
averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him.


I used PER to compare players of the same position. Using PER across the board is stupid since players have different responsibilities.

Lopez is not good. Getting 5 rebounds a game is an absolute joke for a 7'1 player.
RE: Around the league-  
dep026 : 1/23/2017 9:35 am : link
In comment 13336607 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
- Not going to beat the Warriors when Curry/Thompson go 14/22 from 3

- I wasn't a big Aaron Gordon guy in college/draft, came around a bit/bought the hype despite being a tweener but he's really been disappointing this season. I'm guessing in part due to the roster

- Hasn't played a ton but I think the Warriors found a real gem in McCaw.

-Brandon Ingram... 1 rebound in 36 minutes, 0 assists...awful... -45 for the game

-Jokic last 5 26.2 11.2 and 3.4... stud

-Towns 32 12 and 7 (29 and 13 last 5 games! 2 blocks, 3 assists, he's almost taken for granted at this point)

-Dunn 10, 9 and 8... bye Rubio lol


Gordon isnt a 3. Their dearth of big guys is mystifying. Vucevic and Biyombo pairing isnt working. Ibaka is a fish out of water. Heronjza isnt even playing. Thats a bad situation down there.

Towns is a beast and wont even make the ASG.

Bye, bye rubio is right. But I am sure thibs will trade for Jackson and stunt Dunn's growth even more.
I'm a lot closer to hitdog in this debate  
Deej : 1/23/2017 9:43 am : link
Lopez is a good player. Very good scorer, has holes in most other parts of his game, although some of those are overblown (his D isnt bad; aspects of it are bad, aspects are good). The rebounding was on the upswing but is terrible again this season.
Also  
Deej : 1/23/2017 9:46 am : link
there is an argument that has been made that Lopez is a good rebounder -- he gets the rebounds that are near him at a good rate. He just devotes so much energy to boxing out that he more sets up teammates for rebounds than gets them himself.
Link - ( New Window )
NBAmath.com  
DanMetroMan : 1/23/2017 10:02 am : link
is an awesome site. Anyway they have their own (I think they created it) stat called TPA explained as thus-

Quote:
TPA Model
The concept of total points added (TPA), isnt particularly complicated. Were looking at both defensive and offensive effectiveness on a per-possession basis while also incorporating the amount of playing time the contributor in question receives.
At the heart of the theory is this comparison between two hypothetical players:
Player A makes an average team 5 points better per 100 possessions than an average player would in his spot, and he plays 500 possessions.
Player B makes an average team 10 points better per 100 possessions than an average player would in his spot, and he plays 250 possessions.
Player B is more effective on a per-possession basistwice as effective, in fact. But Player A spends twice as much time on the court. Theoretically, they should have identical values, as they would both add 25 points to an average team.
As such, the formula for TPA is rather simple. Its broken down into two partsoffensive points added (OPA) and defensive points saved (DPS)and each is calculated in the same vein.
OPA is derived by adjusting offensive box plus/minus (OBPM) to account for the number of possessions the player in question is present for. Similarly, DPS is derived from a similar adjustment of defensive box plus/minus (DBPM) with that same number of possessions. OBPM and DBPM, both calculated by Basketball-Reference.com, estimate the per-100-possessions value of a player on either end of the court.
Add OPA and DPS together, and you have TPA. A score of zero indicates a player was perfectly average (by no means a bad thing for rookies or lifelong end-of-bench players), while anything positive means they were better than an average-level replacement.


Anyway, the top names in the NBA are exactly where you would expect them to be (Russ, Harden, Durant, Giannis, Lebron) the top 5 but #7... Kyle Lowry, I know he's underrated but wow. Other "surprises" Jokic #13, Gobert #14
Seasons not over  
giantsfan44ab : 1/23/2017 10:02 am : link
But I wonder how much Minnesota wants to invest in Dunn being the starting PG. He's no doubt a beast defensively but he's turning 23 soon. Let him start the rest of the season but if they end up with a shot at getting one of the stud PGs in the draft I'm not sure if Dunn would be the reason they pass over one.

They're also only 2.5 games out of the 8 spot so who knows what they do this season.
Slowest  
DanMetroMan : 1/23/2017 10:05 am : link
healer ever

Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago
More
Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.
Lowry has been unbelievable this year  
giantsfan44ab : 1/23/2017 10:06 am : link
Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career.
RE: Slowest  
nygiants16 : 1/23/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13336680 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
healer ever

Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago
More
Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.


he milks everything and i think that is part of the reason why melo and smith did not want him back on the knicks..

good for him though, milked mediocre talent into an nba career
RE: Slowest  
hitdog42 : 1/23/2017 10:09 am : link
In comment 13336680 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
healer ever

Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago
More
Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.


Its just amazing... the one positive is the team sucks anyway and its allowed Isiah Whitehead to play more and look like a future NBA player in some capacity--- also Levert and RHJ.
but god its awful and shows up in the 2nd half of every game
Good thing the Nets are in a position  
dep026 : 1/23/2017 10:12 am : link
to draft a stud PG in the deepest PG draft in history....

Oh wait...
RE: Lowry has been unbelievable this year  
EricNY33 : 1/23/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13336682 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career.


He grew up. That's really what it is. Talent was always there, but he was living off only that. He's become a basketball player now.
RE: RE: Lowry has been unbelievable this year  
giantsfan44ab : 1/23/2017 10:17 am : link
In comment 13336701 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 13336682 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career.



He grew up. That's really what it is. Talent was always there, but he was living off only that. He's become a basketball player now.


But he wasn't ever a great athlete. He became an all star because he out hustles everybody and bullies guys in the paint-something I've never seen out of a PG. He also was never a great 3 point shooter and he's now shooting like 40%.
RE: NBAmath.com  
Deej : 1/23/2017 10:42 am : link
In comment 13336676 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
is an awesome site. Anyway they have their own (I think they created it) stat called TPA explained as thus-


So they have Noah as the best Knick, #47 in the NBA, based exclusively on his defense (negative offense score). Then KOQ in the 60s, Melo around 95, KP 103, then Plumlee in the 120s as a zero net value player. Everyone else negative. Rose and Jennings as our worst players, based mostly on their D.
Also  
DanMetroMan : 1/23/2017 10:52 am : link
Draymond Green as good as his rep (#10 best player) #1 offensively.
RE: RE: a selective stat follower you are  
Sgrcts : 1/23/2017 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13336631 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13336586 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


also a stater of opinions as facts...

why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player...
averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him.




I used PER to compare players of the same position. Using PER across the board is stupid since players have different responsibilities.

Lopez is not good. Getting 5 rebounds a game is an absolute joke for a 7'1 player.


That's not how PER or really any all in stat works. The whole general purpose of any all in stat is to do exactly that, to compare players through positions and through history.
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