NFT: Knicks Chat: KOQ/Spurs fit?

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fits as a rotation/backup big on nearly every contender. I think he's worth more than a 1st rounder in the 25-30 range though. Would have to be more coming back than that. This trade deadline might be where you can get the most back for him. He can opt out after next season. His value will only decrease the closer you get to that.

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move almost anyone on the roster but KOQ for such a late pick doesn't do much for me. Odds are very low you even find a player as good as him.

compared to other contenders. The like to pick.

I dont think that's enough value for KOQ, but I might make the trade anyway. I think Noah, KP, Willy, and Plumlee is enough center depth, even if Noah cant be counted on. Shoot, is it the end of the world if we end up having to give the two rookies the 48 minutes? What, are we going to blow our title shot?

Spurs have 5 rookie and 2nd year players, and the draft rights on a slew of other players (10 total, but only 4 since 2014). KOQ for Dejounte Murray? I'd consider adding a #2.

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pretty shocked how poorly Dunn has played. He's a rookie, I get it but he's 23 in March with a 7.92 PER

How many teams need at least one of the following: rebounding, center depth, a big with a 15 foot jumper. Answer is a lot. Frankly, if we werent so deep and committed to other guys at center I wouldnt dream of trading KOQ. Im convinced that if you put him on a Cleveland he'd be the toast of the league -- he's a better player than Shump, that's for sure. But on an incomplete Knicks team all you can see are flaws in guys games. I know it's not totally fair to compare a bench player playing 15 minutes often vs. backups to a starter, but here are two players per 36 and advanced #s this year:

Player 1: 14.9 points, 13.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .9 steals, .545/.000/.694, 20.4 PER, .149 WS48, 2.8 BPM, +9 net rating

Player 2: 16.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.6 3's, .8 steals, .450/.324/.831, 18.7 PER, .132 WS48, 3.4 BPM, +4 net rating

Player 1 is getting inconsistent minutes on lottery team I root for, and makes squat. Player 2 got a max deal from Boston this summer.

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In comment 13333849 Greg from LI said:

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I dont agree. He rebounds, plays a heady game, and is a willing and very good pick setter. He has a bigness about him that I like (not just height). I dont like him against starters, but he has potential to be an end of bench big.

looks we've gotten...Plumlee looks like he might be something slightly more than your typical end of the bench big stiff.

In comment 13333874 Deej said:

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How many teams need at least one of the following: rebounding, center depth, a big with a 15 foot jumper. Answer is a lot. Frankly, if we werent so deep and committed to other guys at center I wouldnt dream of trading KOQ. Im convinced that if you put him on a Cleveland he'd be the toast of the league -- he's a better player than Shump, that's for sure. But on an incomplete Knicks team all you can see are flaws in guys games. I know it's not totally fair to compare a bench player playing 15 minutes often vs. backups to a starter, but here are two players per 36 and advanced #s this year: Player 1: 14.9 points, 13.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .9 steals, .545/.000/.694, 20.4 PER, .149 WS48, 2.8 BPM, +9 net rating Player 2: 16.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.6 3's, .8 steals, .450/.324/.831, 18.7 PER, .132 WS48, 3.4 BPM, +4 net rating Player 1 is getting inconsistent minutes on lottery team I root for, and makes squat. Player 2 got a max deal from Boston this summer.

Which is why I'm not all that enthused getting an extremely late #1 for him. I would need another piece. Gimme Jean-Charles and Milutinov

like that Plumlee is high energy/knows his limitations. NDour over Randle on the other hand is annoying. He's "so" good defensively that a defense starved team doesn't give him minutes despite having international experience. It's not a big deal but strange move to me.

In comment 13333891 DanMetroMan said:

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Which is why I'm not all that enthused getting an extremely late #1 for him. I would need another piece. Gimme Jean-Charles and Milutinov

As I said, fair position. In prior threads I've put KOQ's value as very late lottery thru pick 20, and I stand by that. My only concern is asset value rot. KOQ's value is likely never going to be higher, and Willy really needs run.

feel like they could find minutes for Willy even with KOQ here. I think his defense is why he doesn't play more (how exactly is that going to improve as he sits on the bench?).

He's proven in a very small amount of time that he's worth giving a look to, but that's all we know. Writing him off is almost as bad as saying he can bring what Noah brings.

I'm not trading Oquinn just to trade him. He might be a good throw in to get a trade done. His salary is fantastic and he's a good rotational player. If we are able to trade one of the high salary guys, it might be good to have Q'quinn around to entice another team.

We aren't getting much for him. His per 36 and advanced numbers were fantastic when he hit FA in Orlando and look how much he got. He's getting even less minutes than he did in Orlando on a team that has severe defensive/rim protection issues.

This team wouldn't have played Russian roulette by spending $72M on a washed up center if he was that integral to a 30 win teams success.

I do think he is miscast but a single first rounder is the absolute most you'll be getting from him, if that.

He's been much better this season. If he had this year last year, we may not have been so aggressive finding a center. Last year he was fat, out of shape and wasn't contributing as much as he is now.

for a 2nd round pick.

In comment 13333922 Keith said:

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He's been much better this season. If he had this year last year, we may not have been so aggressive finding a center. Last year he was fat, out of shape and wasn't contributing as much as he is now.

So he's getting 3.5 more minutes than last year. He certainly is more efficient but he's just as foul prone as ever and this defense is just as bad as it was.

I'm not advocating to auction him off to the highest bidder regardless of the cost but I simply don't think there's much of a market for him. I think trading Noah to MIN/MIL is much more likely if he continues his improvement.

Willy needs to play. And Plumlee is doing typical Plumlee things. I would be ok trading KOQ, Noah or Plumlee. Would prefer to hold on to Willy.

In comment 13333938 Heisenberg said:

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Willy needs to play. And Plumlee is doing typical Plumlee things. I would be ok trading KOQ, Noah or Plumlee. Would prefer to hold on to Willy.

I think Willy is probably the second most untouchable player on the team, although I could definitely see him put in a big deal as a sweetener. He's not a good player yet but shows potential and is in one of the most team friendly deals in the NBA. His deal is the inverse of the Noah deal.

Fan vote:
Derrick Rose-6th highest votes amongst guards
Carmelo-6th amongst frontcourt players
KP-7th amongst frontcourt players

Player vote:
KP-5th amongst frontcourt players
Carmelo-6th amongst frontcourt players
Rose-9th amongst guards

Media vote-Not sure whey their vote means anything, but KP was the only one to get 1 vote.

Not sure why the fan votes mean anything.

the fans are the ones who pay. Obviously it also means that it won't be based on merit.

To me, the media vote should mean nothing. They shouldn't get a special vote for anything. Not awards, all-stars, HOF, nothing. Why not give the coaches a vote instead of the media.

I like that Rose gets respect amongst his peers, even though he gets absolutely destroyed on a regular basis on these threads by a select few.

In comment 13334012 Keith said:

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the fans are the ones who pay. Obviously it also means that it won't be based on merit. To me, the media vote should mean nothing. They shouldn't get a special vote for anything. Not awards, all-stars, HOF, nothing. Why not give the coaches a vote instead of the media. I like that Rose gets respect amongst his peers, even though he gets absolutely destroyed on a regular basis on these threads by a select few.

Yeah agree on coaches.

And Zaza fucking Pachulia was 12th in player vote in the WC so I wouldn't pat yourself on the back like this solidifies your Rose-MVP argument or whatever it is you're trying to promote.

Kobe Bryant was one of the worst players in history last year given his time played and efficiency and was voted a starter. Average players get selected all the time, nothing new at all.

is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

In comment 13334033 Keith said:

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is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

Fair enough. I just want to clean the slate with this team as much as possible. Never seen so much debate over an average professional athlete as I have on here.

because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks.

He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba.

In comment 13334033 Keith said:

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is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

Unless he's ranked there because it is a popularity contest and nothing more.

In any event, rank on the list (i.e. being 9th) is a terrible metric. Rose got 14 votes on 324 ballots. The top 6 guards (and I think there is a clear top 6 in the East) got 130, 92, 91, 49, 40, and 31. Wade got 33. Beal was 8th at 16, Rose and Teague t9 at 14, Batum had 10, Bradley 8, blah blah blah. Lee got 6. Rose was merely near the front of the pack of guys who were not even competitive with the 3 real candidates -- Kyrie, Thomas, and Derozan.

That's not a swipe at Rose. Just an acknowledgment that using this vote as a proxy for players saying Rose is the 9th best guard in the East I think is wrong.

Also, these votes are an embarrassment. Put Rose aside. 14 NBAers thought Jeff Teague > Kryrie and Thomas? 6 said Courtney Lee? It's clear guys are voting for friends and teammates. Michael Beasley got 5 votes. Okafor 4. Lance Thomas got 1. Marshall Plumlee 2. Jerian 2.

In comment 13334037 giantsfan44ab said:

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because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks. He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba.

Schroeder got 3 player votes. That's Jerian + Justin Holiday.

It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

I think he can be the type of hard nosed gritty player off the bench that helps teams win. The problem is the team is so thin right now that when he is in people hope/expect to see him carry more of a load where he really is suited to be a smaller piece of the puzzle.

He seems like a smart player who knows his limits and how to best use his strengths. I think he will improve with playing time.

In comment 13334045 Deej said:

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In comment 13334037 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks. He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba. Schroeder got 3 player votes. That's Jerian + Justin Holiday.

That's just disgusting. Maybe it's because he's still young and not many people rooting for other teams would even know who he is. But there is a clear class of 5 PGs in the east and the rest you can more or less and mix and match and choose whoever (leaving Jackson off for now because he hasn't matched his stellar season for last year).

In comment 13334051 giantsfan44ab said:

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It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

So wait, you are actually suggesting that players are voting for guys that grew up in the same state while they were growing? I think that's a reach of epic proportions

Played in the same state while growing up...

In comment 13334058 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 13334051 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it. So wait, you are actually suggesting that players are voting for guys that grew up in the same state while they were growing? I think that's a reach of epic proportions

Sarcasm? What better explanation is there for saying Lee over Kyrie Irving? Would it be more of a reach than say, what tony Allen did when selecting his ballot?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2017/1/9/14218828/tony-allen-periscope-all-star-game-votes-nba

Is selectig names out of a hat better or worse than choosing your friends? What other explanation would there be for Plumlee and Okafor for getting player votes other than the fact they were teammates on a college championship team. Same goes for thomas. Or maybe it was a teammate just putting teammates on it.

Anthony has a no-trade clause in his contract, but he said he would be willing to listen to management if they told him they wanted to make a change.

�I think it will be more on the front office,� Anthony told Newsday this week. �I have the power, but still I would talk to them. We would be in communication if they feel like they want to go in a different direction, they want to start rebuilding for the future. If they tell me they want to scrap this whole thing, yeah, I have to consider it.�

The Knicks declined to comment.

Antony signed a five-year contract in 2014.

�There�s a part of me that also would feel like I�m being selfish to the guys that are on the team right now, in the midst of us losing to just try to figure a way to escape from everything. For me personally, it would be more of something I would really have to think about and consider. Put it all on the table and figure it out.�

The most substantive trade proposal generating buzz among the various team officials, scouts and agents assembled this week at the Hershey Centre: Orlando, according to league sources, recently tried to engage Miami on a Goran Dragic deal in which the Magic were said to be offering center Nikola Vucevic and a future first-round pick.

In comment 13334169 DanMetroMan said:

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�There�s a part of me that also would feel like I�m being selfish to the guys that are on the team right now, in the midst of us losing to just try to figure a way to escape from everything. For me personally, it would be more of something I would really have to think about and consider. Put it all on the table and figure it out.�

Counter to the "Melo doesnt care about winning" snipe.

at his word, then he's being fair. He's basically saying that he wants to be in NY and won't ask for a trade, but if management comes to him and says they want to blow it up he'd at least be willing to consider waiving the no trade clause.

In comment 13334171 DanMetroMan said:

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The most substantive trade proposal generating buzz among the various team officials, scouts and agents assembled this week at the Hershey Centre: Orlando, according to league sources, recently tried to engage Miami on a Goran Dragic deal in which the Magic were said to be offering center Nikola Vucevic and a future first-round pick.

Orlando is rearranging deck chairs. Oladipo+ for Ibaka. Sign Bismack and suddenly they have too much big. So now looking Vuc for Dragic. I think Miami can do better (and doesnt need a center). I havent seen much of Orlando this year but it looks like Elfrid got a bit better. Still, no one on the roster looks like they can be the #1 or #2 best player on a conference finals team, so what's the point?

I expect a lot of the trade talk is going to be about deals for guys with several years of control. I dont know that anyone is moving assets for this year, much like last season when dominance by GSW and CLE scared the whole market.

traded away for no great reason. Orlando seems like a child, unhappy with the whole meal, just pushing the food around on its plate with its fork.

I had some NBA scouts/executives tell me they prefer Ball. One said he likes Fox best. But the majority still favor Fultz, which isn't surprising. Yes, Washington has struggled this season; the Huskies are 9-9 overall and 2-4 in the Pac-12. But Fultz is not to blame. The 6-foot-4 freshman got 37 points, eight assists, five rebounds, three steals and three blocks in Wednesday's win over Colorado and is now averaging 23.1 points, 6.2 assists, 5.8 rebounds, 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game. Fultz is big and strong for his position. He can get into the lane or make shots from the perimeter -- proof being how Fultz is shooting 40.3 percent from 3-point range. Just the total package, really. There's basically nothing to not like.

Link - ( New Window )

at getting a ring with the few remaining good years he has left.

I can't believe he wouldn't prefer being traded to a contending team at this point regardless of what he says publicly.

if we could geta top 3 pick. Fultz, Ball, Smith, Fox -- give me any of them. Use the #2s to get some gritty wing defenders. You have a team.

Can't go wrong with Ball he sure has been showing he can shoot it. Issue with Fox and Smith is shooting. Both look capable but Fultz is simply elite. How many guys that are considered top 10 PGs can't shoot the 3? Only Westbrook maybe? And he's probably one of the best athletes in American sports history.

I don't doubt Fox and Smith will be good/great NBA players but both aren't as complete as Fultz/Ball.

And yeah the magic are a mess. Slowly realizing that it may be more infuriating to be a magic fan than a Knicks fan. At least the Knicks hit on their draft picks when given the chance. I don't like really anyone on the magic roster except maybe Gordon. But he's a 4 and they need to surround him with shooters. Payton is yuck, hezonja has gone missing, Vuc is a backup scoring big, Fournier can shoot but can't play any D. I've been pretty skeptical on how good Ibaka really is. He's a good all around player but he's a 5th option on a good team. Not the #1 he's expected to be in Orlando.

but I'd love to buy low on him. I think expectations were out of whack with Hez -- he doesnt have the suddenness or bounce of the athletes he was grouped in with.

1. Melo and Jennings to Miami for Dragic, Winslow and Ellington

2. Melo, Jennings, Ndour for Gibson, Mirotic, Rondo and a 2017 #1

3. Melo, Plumlee for Love/Liggins

4. Melo, Plumlee for Jordan, Bass and Anderson

5. Melo, Ndour, Plumlee for the Nets 1st, Crowder, Jerebko, Crowder

(I'd do #5 in a millisecond, I suspect Ainge would hang up the phone). I'd do #2 as well, I'd probably do #3 because we get younger but our defense... yikes. Melo and Griffin seem like a terrible fit to me.

WTF are we gonna do with Jordan?

There's no way on Earth Riles does that first one.

In comment 13334193 Deej said:
[quote] if we could geta top 3 pick. Fultz, Ball, Smith, Fox -- give me any of them. Use the #2s to get some gritty wing defenders. You have a team. [/quote

I like that...there are about 11 shittier teams than the Knicks at this moment. Knicks need to chop into that -- 4-5 teams are within striking distance and that's not counting the sixers who are charging. Let's get to 5-6 range please.

Tank.

In comment 13334217 DanMetroMan said:

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1. Melo and Jennings to Miami for Dragic, Winslow and Ellington 2. Melo, Jennings, Ndour for Gibson, Mirotic, Rondo and a 2017 #1 3. Melo, Plumlee for Love/Liggins 4. Melo, Plumlee for Jordan, Bass and Anderson 5. Melo, Ndour, Plumlee for the Nets 1st, Crowder, Jerebko, Crowder (I'd do #5 in a millisecond, I suspect Ainge would hang up the phone). I'd do #2 as well, I'd probably do #3 because we get younger but our defense... yikes. Melo and Griffin seem like a terrible fit to me.

Yes
Yes
No
Why waste our time
Yes(although we can only take 1 crowder)

In comment 13334221 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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There's no way on Earth Riles does that first one.

Most realistic would probably be the Bulls and Cavs deals. None are likely though.

and even that is far fetched.

is expiring, Mirotic isn't that good and will be an RFA and the Bulls want to be rid of Rondo. I think the Bulls one is the only true "hmm might make SOME sense" move

I think you do Melo for Love in a heartbeat, and then flip Love quickly. Love is a more valuable asset due to age, NTC status, and good play this season.

theory the Bulls could see Wade/Melo/Butler as a trio they can try and win without having to give up anything "big" for a Carmelo Anthony (currently the Bulls pick 14th and Melo likely helps their pick fall into the late teens/20's

think the Lakers would be in on Love, they are being tied to every "star" and Love is from there.

going to trade Anthony, getting anything less than a lottery pick is pretty poor. I think Melo still demands a really good return, he's shown he still has the ability to put up 40 on any given night. I wouldn't just trade him for basically the 25th pick and a few guys. Makes no sense to me.

In comment 13334234 Deej said:

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I think you do Melo for Love in a heartbeat, and then flip Love quickly. Love is a more valuable asset due to age, NTC status, and good play this season.

Fair point if the goal is to then flip Love, but then they'd just do a 3 way and get the assets themselves.

In comment 13334249 ryanmkeane said:

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going to trade Anthony, getting anything less than a lottery pick is pretty poor. I think Melo still demands a really good return, he's shown he still has the ability to put up 40 on any given night. I wouldn't just trade him for basically the 25th pick and a few guys. Makes no sense to me.

Well yeah, except for the fact that he has 0 40-point games this season. Anthony is not what he used to be. He's a good shooter who still takes bad shots and doesn't help out a ton elsewhere. He doesn't have a lot of value at all. Then factor in that he has a NTC and can block anything and you can't be picky in what you get.

In comment 13334235 DanMetroMan said:

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theory the Bulls could see Wade/Melo/Butler as a trio they can try and win without having to give up anything "big" for a Carmelo Anthony (currently the Bulls pick 14th and Melo likely helps their pick fall into the late teens/20's

That is a terrible trio that just doesn't fit together, especially without a PG that can distribute.

getting suspended, I think the Melo/Love thing would have happened by now. Some of us were talking about that going back well over a year. Just made so much sense for everyone.

In comment 13334258 Keith said:

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In comment 13334249 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Well yeah, except for the fact that he has 0 40-point games this season. Anthony is not what he used to be. He's a good shooter who still takes bad shots and doesn't help out a ton elsewhere. He doesn't have a lot of value at all. Then factor in that he has a NTC and can block anything and you can't be picky in what you get.

Christ dude, sorry. Will you settle for 35...36? He just put up 25 points in a quarter.

saying Anthony has hardly any value at all?

In comment 13334265 ryanmkeane said:

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In comment 13334258 Keith said: Quote: In comment 13334249 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Well yeah, except for the fact that he has 0 40-point games this season. Anthony is not what he used to be. He's a good shooter who still takes bad shots and doesn't help out a ton elsewhere. He doesn't have a lot of value at all. Then factor in that he has a NTC and can block anything and you can't be picky in what you get. Christ dude, sorry. Will you settle for 35...36? He just put up 25 points in a quarter.

Yeah and he was terrible the other 3 quarters. He's just not that guy anymore. Where do I get off saying that? I guess I just live in reality.

In comment 13334230 DanMetroMan said:

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is expiring, Mirotic isn't that good and will be an RFA and the Bulls want to be rid of Rondo. I think the Bulls one is the only true "hmm might make SOME sense" move

that Bulls trade would be awful. I'd rather just keep Melo. Rondo has negative value at this point. If the Bulls just wanted to trade him by himself they'd have to attached at least a #1 to get someone to swallow his contract for next season. Sot that leaves you with Gibson and Mirotic...both of whom need to be signed? Pass.

Yeah that's a terrible trade for both parties.

Just replace Morris with Melo in the starting lineup.

Maybe Melo, KOQ for Mahinimi, oubre and a 1st. Not really much value but id consider compared to half of those proposed deals.

And if Orlando is that desperate for a PG I'd try flipping Rose to Orlando and maybe get Hezonja and some other misfits. He doesn't solve their shooting issues but Rose is more than a few steps up from Payton.

In comment 13334288 giantsfan44ab said:

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Maybe Melo, KOQ for Mahinimi, oubre and a 1st. Not really much value but id consider compared to half of those proposed deals.

I wouldnt give KOQ for that package, let alone Melo and KOQ. Honestly, I'd have to think pretty hard about whether I'd give Plumlee for that package. I dont like Mahinimi's contract, especially with a potentially untradable Noah already here. That would be like 33 million or so for Noah and IM to play center (when you already have Willy and KP) -- blech.

Step 1: Unload Rose and Courtney Lee

Rose and Lee for Jeff Green (expiring, salary filler), Hezonja and Vucevic.

Reason Magic would do it is if they are looking to trade a first rounder and Vuc to get dragic (who I don't think is anymore of a "true" point guard than either Payton or Rose). IMO rose is better than dragic but anyways they get a solid SG option in addition and the Knicks get a young prospect in Hezonja and clear $15M a year in future cap space.

Step 2: Unload Noah

Trade Noah for Rubio and Muhammad.

Don't have to spend $150M in the offseason on a mediocre PG when we can get a slightly below average one for less than half the annual value.


Step 3: Unload Melo

Melo, Holiday and KOQ for Mahinimi (salary filler), Oubre, Nicholson and a 1st.

This is really a last resort trade and it would be 40 cents on the dollar. The first isn't going to be that great. Nicholson is just salary filler. Oubre is a 20 year old wing. This just allows the Knicks to hit the reset button and get SOMETHING out of getting rid of Melo. And yeah I know, we throw in KOQ but I honestly don't know if Washington would trade away a prospect and a first round pick without getting some depth. I think they would agree to it but who knows. It allows the Knicks to tank for maybe a top 6-7 pick.


So in summary, we would have 3 young wing players (Oubre, Muhammad, Hezonja), Vucevic, Nicholson, Mahinimi and Rubio. Pretty much just rearranging options in the frontcourt but we clear a lot of salary in the front court and get some prospects, and tank. It's also ideal for having Rubio. You got two bigs that can space the floor. Not good for defense but rebounding wouldn't be an issue. Ideally we'd flip Vucevic sooner or later to allow more time for Willy at C.

In comment 13334335 Deej said:

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In comment 13334288 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: Maybe Melo, KOQ for Mahinimi, oubre and a 1st. Not really much value but id consider compared to half of those proposed deals. I wouldnt give KOQ for that package, let alone Melo and KOQ. Honestly, I'd have to think pretty hard about whether I'd give Plumlee for that package. I dont like Mahinimi's contract, especially with a potentially untradable Noah already here. That would be like 33 million or so for Noah and IM to play center (when you already have Willy and KP) -- blech.

You wouldn't flip plumlee for Oubre?

Our team would be:

PG: Rubio, Jennings, Baker
SG: Hezonja, Oubre
SF: Kuz, Muhammad, Nicholson
PF: KP, Vuc, Green
C: Willy, mahinimi, plumlee

Plus 2 first rounders and maybe get a couple of 2nd rounders to sweeten the deal.

Just ballparking the salaries going forward:

Between Rubio, Vuc, Mahinimi and Nicholson that's a little less than $50M a year. Let's just give Shabazz $10M a year for now. KP, Willy, Hezonja, Oubre, and Kuz would be around $15-20M.

So we'd be at less than $80M in cap so room to give out a max. I don't think it would be hard to find a team that would take Vuc as a scoring big off the bench.

In comment 13334362 giantsfan44ab said:

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You wouldn't flip plumlee for Oubre?

I would. But the offer you laid out had us taking back a massive contract with Oubre. Im not sure Oubre and a late #1 is worth it for that contract. I really dont like that contract for the Knicks, if they're stuck with it (not clear to me whether it can be moved).

In comment 13334383 Deej said:

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In comment 13334362 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: You wouldn't flip plumlee for Oubre? I would. But the offer you laid out had us taking back a massive contract with Oubre. Im not sure Oubre and a late #1 is worth it for that contract. I really dont like that contract for the Knicks, if they're stuck with it (not clear to me whether it can be moved).

Well In conjunction with the other moves I laid out we'd be around the same cap number going forward. But we'd have Rubio so in essence that's $30M a year we don't have to spend on rose or jrue holiday.

If the Knicks wanted to rebuild, Carmelo Anthony would consider waiving his no-trade clause.
"I have the power, but still I would talk to [the front office]," Anthony said. "We would be in communication if they feel like they want to go in a different direction, they want to start rebuilding for the future. If they tell me they want to scrap this whole thing, yeah, I have to consider it." All this said, he said his family loves it in New York and his son goes to school in NYC, so he may not waive it even if the Knicks rebuild.

In comment 13334235 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

theory the Bulls could see Wade/Melo/Butler as a trio they can try and win without having to give up anything "big" for a Carmelo Anthony (currently the Bulls pick 14th and Melo likely helps their pick fall into the late teens/20's

If im in the Knicks I'm doing this in a heartbeat. Gibson would be a perfect defensive 4 next to KP at 5. Rondo is fully guaranteed and can be waived. Mirotic- who cares. Grabbing an extra 1st rounder would be nice.

Trading Melo changes the course of the team for the future and not for the now. You can then truly run the offense around KP- especially in crunch time. You get Willy minutes while he struggles on defense because its all about developing him. And most importantly your improving your draft spot to hopefully get another young stud.

Not a huge mistake by the Knicks, but a mistake. Is Plumlee really more important?

In comment 13334676 manh george said:

Quote:

Not a huge mistake by the Knicks, but a mistake. Is Plumlee really more important?

Plumlee is not the marginal roster player, and he played very well vs. BOS. I struggle to understand why Randle getting a 2nd 10 day contract from a very bad team is evidence that guys we've wanted and had around all season are worse than him.

There is an awful lot of hand ringing over the 15th spot on the roster. History shows these debates generally were overwrought.

Chris Paul is out for 2 months. Clippers season most likely done even if they make playoffs would probably play GS or Spurs in first round
CP3 may not resign with Clips and exercise his ETO
Trade CP3 for Rose straight up
Salaries work
CP gets to play with Melo and most likely signs max with Knicks
Rose helps salvage clips season and clips under no obligation to resign him


Makes sense

In comment 13334716 Earl the goat said:

Quote:

Chris Paul is out for 2 months. Clippers season most likely done even if they make playoffs would probably play GS or Spurs in first round CP3 may not resign with Clips and exercise his ETO Trade CP3 for Rose straight up Salaries work CP gets to play with Melo and most likely signs max with Knicks Rose helps salvage clips season and clips under no obligation to resign him Makes sense

it is actually not a crazy idea and would actually be a smart move for the clippers..

they then resign blake...

there would have to be draft picks sent from the knicks

In comment 13334719 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13334716 Earl the goat said: Quote: Chris Paul is out for 2 months. Clippers season most likely done even if they make playoffs would probably play GS or Spurs in first round Wow NYGiants. It's nice to agree on something I'd send draft picks as long as it's not this years pick We desperately need to hit a HR and get a stud to play with KP in years to come CP3 Melo KP Lottery pick This would make for a formidable lineup 2018. And throw in my nan Kooz CP3 may not resign with Clips and exercise his ETO Trade CP3 for Rose straight up Salaries work CP gets to play with Melo and most likely signs max with Knicks Rose helps salvage clips season and clips under no obligation to resign him Makes sense it is actually not a crazy idea and would actually be a smart move for the clippers.. they then resign blake... there would have to be draft picks sent from the knicks

In comment 13334719 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13334716 Earl the goat said: Quote: Chris Paul is out for 2 months. Clippers season most likely done even if they make playoffs would probably play GS or Spurs in first round CP3 may not resign with Clips and exercise his ETO Trade CP3 for Rose straight up Salaries work CP gets to play with Melo and most likely signs max with Knicks Rose helps salvage clips season and clips under no obligation to resign him Makes sense it is actually not a crazy idea and would actually be a smart move for the clippers.. they then resign blake... there would have to be draft picks sent from the knicks

Are you guys seriously stating the Clippers should trade a top 10 player in the entire NBA for a not top 15 PG in the entire NBA as a real trade? I don't even know where to start, except the Clippers wouldn't do that unless KP was in the trade. Rose brings them the same exact outcome in the playoffs as fat Ray does. If they wanted to trade CP3 there would be 15 other teams with way better offers. CP3 can get the most money from the Clippers so he 98% will resign with them.

Rose for CP3 would easily be the worst trade in NBA history if it happened.

you are signing both cp3 and blake to huge max contracts and basically saying this is your team for thennext 5 years?

i am not saying the clips would do it, but you can see why they would do it, especially if knicks add in picks, the clips are baren and their future is not so bright...

also no not 15 teams would offer something better because there is no guarantee he would resign with that team..

stop with the Rose for Paul nonsense.

FFS.

he would be the player who would put you in purgatory. A 7/8 seed for the next 3-4 years.

trade injured players.

In comment 13334818 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

trade injured players.

you can the team receiving injured player would have to rescind physical...

If Chris Paul isn't gonna work then why downgrade him to Derrick Rose and become a borderline 8 seed instead of a 4 seed?

Detroit Pistons president-coach Stan Van Gundy denied an ESPN report that there are currently trade discussions with the Minnesota Timberwolves involving point guard Reggie Jackson. In a series of texts to the Free Press, Van Gundy said the organization doesn�t �have a single thing under consideration.� ESPN.com, citing unnamed sources, is reporting a Jackson-for-Ricky Rubio multiplayer swap has been discussed.

In comment 13334735 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

you are signing both cp3 and blake to huge max contracts and basically saying this is your team for thennext 5 years? i am not saying the clips would do it, but you can see why they would do it, especially if knicks add in picks, the clips are baren and their future is not so bright... also no not 15 teams would offer something better because there is no guarantee he would resign with that team..

Ok so just to clarify- the Knicks would give middle of the road 1st round picks and Derrick Rose for a top 10 player, and the Clips couldn't find 15 deals better then that?

And the Knicks are a team CP3 would be a lock to resign with? Why would he want to stay here?


No, I can't think of literally a single reason the Clippers would do that. The Celtics would 100% offer both Nets picks for CP3. Rose is 100% valueless in any trade, especially with the Clippers. It makes zero sense for them. Less then zero. Worse then a fantasy trade.

The Celtics would give 2 potential #1 overall picks for a 32 year old PG when their PG is 27 and going to be on the MVP ballot...

he is out for 2 months and on an expiring comtract..

and you dont think he would be a lock to resign with the knicks? one of his best friends plays on the knicks...

again i said IF the clippers thought about trading him it could be an option..

It is really crazy how quickly that clippers team is going to fall and how long it will take for them to rebuild and they won nothing..

is there another superstar in the nba that somehow does not get killed for never winning anythong like cp3? people call melo a loser and should look for a team to win on...cp3 has done nothing..

the clippers are capped out even if they let 1 of cp3 or blake go and they have 0 draft picks in this upcoming draft..

In comment 13334927 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

The Celtics would give 2 potential #1 overall picks for a 32 year old PG when their PG is 27 and going to be on the MVP ballot...

That's fine but no one in the NBA thinks IT is a top 10 player. Everyone in the NA thinks CP3 is. Additionally, guarantee that the presence of IT will not stop the Celtics from drafting Fultz as the #1 pick.

In comment 13334949 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

In comment 13334927 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: The Celtics would give 2 potential #1 overall picks for a 32 year old PG when their PG is 27 and going to be on the MVP ballot... That's fine but no one in the NBA thinks IT is a top 10 player. Everyone in the NA thinks CP3 is. Additionally, guarantee that the presence of IT will not stop the Celtics from drafting Fultz as the #1 pick.

That's fine. As well as they should. Never hurts to have young guns in the pipeline.. Is the difference between CP3 being the 10th best player and Thomas being the 20th best player worth 2 Markelle Fultz plus an additional $34M a year (difference between what Thomas is making next year and what CP3 will be making next year)?

Plus how many more years will CP3 be better than thomas? Like 2? I don't think the Celtics would trade CP3 for thomas straight up simply because of age of salary. CP3 was never good enough to win more than one playoff series in his prime. Being the team that gives CP3 his next contract will have the same issues as the team that gives Drew Brees his next contract.

for Rubio who says no?

In comment 13335005 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

for Rubio who says no?

Knicks front office, most Knicks fans and anyone who has a clue.

In comment 13335012 Keith said:

Quote:

In comment 13335005 Jon in NYC said: Quote: for Rubio who says no? Knicks front office, most Knicks fans and anyone who has a clue.

Why? Rose is good but he's not worth twice what Rubio making + Shabazz

...

with 2 more years?

In comment 13335015 Keith said:

Quote:

with 2 more years?

To tank? To have a player who will involve the younger guys? To not invest $150M on a PG that will have us picking in the 10-15 range instead of the top7-8?

The Knicks don't have to give rose 150M. So you are suggesting that Jackson should trade for a spar player with a worse contract to protect himself from signing rose?

Now if Minny was to include an asset that useful to the Knicks, it might make sense(assuming the main goal of trading melo is accomplished).

Lesser.

pretty much. Rubio has 2 years left. Jennings won't command that much but will probably be looking for a 4 year deal. Holiday and Rose making $30M a year is a situation I don't want to be a part of.

getting a young asset is why I'd do it. Not even a big Muhammad fan but it would be nice to have 1 useful wing player under the age of 25.

He said Rubio for rose straight up and I don't see how that makes logical sense.

In comment 13335024 Keith said:

Quote:

He said Rubio for rose straight up and I don't see how that makes logical sense.

Well if you look at any reported Rubio rumor they are attaching Muhammad to him because they aren't going to pay Muhammad when they're going to have 3 future max players, 2 at the wing spots.

i would do rubio and mohammed for rose..

mohammef goves you a nice bench piece...

rubio is still young and could be a stop gap for time being if knicms draft a pg

"if it was his bench, everybody would be sitting their ass down"

OG Anunoby (Indiana) out for the season - knee surgery. Projected lottery pick and a favorite of mine for the Knicks in the 10-15 range.

In comment 13335055 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

OG Anunoby (Indiana) out for the season - knee surgery. Projected lottery pick and a favorite of mine for the Knicks in the 10-15 range.

if the knicks do not make the playoffs and keep melo i want bridges, i think he is the perfect fit with melo at the 4 and kp at 5..

unless one of the top pgs drop of course

Definitely has more trade value then Derrick Rose. The only way the awol es do that is if they're really concerned with the salary dump. Even if you mistakenly think Rose is somehow a better player then Rubio(which he isn't), Rubio is an excellent defensive and passing PG on an incredibly cheap contract. Rose is a soon to be FA who thinks he's getting the max. The Knicks would easily do that deal and the Wolves wouldn't. Rose single above average NBA skill has no use on a team wth 3 high usage players who all excel at that same skill, getting to the hoop.

If so, is just like to say that Noah is Fucking USELESS!

why Kuz was sent back to the bench?

allowed to shove melo up and down the court?

.

Yeah, let's leave Booker alone behind the arc.

he still thinks Rubio is better than Rose. Just laughable at this point.

For the fuckin win!

.

.

dep would appear within two minutes.

In comment 13335146 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

dep would appear within two minutes.

good thing I wasnt responding to you fucknuts.

this balances out the win in Boston the other night.

"All I want is a top 8 pick, a top 8 pick, a top 8 pick."

The rest of the team can go take a hike.



Get draft picks and get younger. Give me a Shved-like reason to watch these games so I don't have to watch these heartbreaking games anymore.

#TryLikeHellToTradeNoah
#TradeLee
#TradeMelo
#DraftPicks
#CapSpace
#Porzingus
#Get2OnesForOQuinn

''Twas a joke, boss.

In comment 13335154 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

''Twas a joke, boss.

shit, should have called you deeznuuts then. My apologies.

In comment 13335141 dep026 said:

Quote:

he still thinks Rubio is better than Rose. Just laughable at this point.

Lets see-

Better defender: Rubio by a country mile.
Better passer: Rubio by a country mile.
Better court awareness: Rubio by a country mile.
Better rebounder: Rubio by a lot.
Better scorer: Rose by a country mile.


Stats Rubio/Rose.

Orating: 114/105
Drating:110/114
PER: 14.6/16.6
WS: 2.7/1.5
WS/48: .110/.056
BPM: .5/-2.1
VORP: .8/0
RPM: 1.58(12th in PG)/-2.61(60th in PG)
Projected year end WARP: 6.7/-1.2

Yes, totally laughable, besides the fact that literally every single metric besides PER, which doesnt take defense into account thinks Rubio is a FAR better player, and Rose has literally one above average NBA skill.

It's 100% plausible you cant build a winning team with Rubios flaws, which I wouldn't even argue. However, its 100% likely you cant build a winning team with Rose's, so either way Rubio is a far better player.

Go ahead though, tell me more about calculators and mathizhard but your eyes are so much better, yet you cant give me any actual eye reasons why Rose is worse.

last sentence should read why Rose is better.

Interesting that rose is averaging more rebounds per game this year. Hmmm, those damn stats.

Rubio passes and defends better (even though his defense has been average at best this year.) Rose shoots and demands a helluva lot more attention than Rubio on offense. Rose's offense is so much better than anything Rubio does better its not even funny.

Who's PER is better this year? Here's a hint Rubio is 30th ranked PG. Which is bottom of the barrel of point guards in the league.

the TWolves have far more talent surrounding Rubio than the Knicks do and they still completey suck ass. Probably because their PG is one of the worst in the league.

Why does Baker need to play the entire 4th quarter? He was minus 7.

Lee doesn't need to play 35+ minutes. Holiday and Hernangomez need consistent minutes.

In comment 13335160 dep026 said:

Quote:

Interesting that rose is averaging more rebounds per game this year. Hmmm, those damn stats. Rubio passes and defends better (even though his defense has been average at best this year.) Rose shoots and demands a helluva lot more attention than Rubio on offense. Rose's offense is so much better than anything Rubio does better its not even funny. Who's PER is better this year? Here's a hint Rubio is 30th ranked PG. Which is bottom of the barrel of point guards in the league.

Rubio is a better rebounder by rebound %.

And yes Rubios PER is worse- which I pointed out, but PER doesnt take defense into account really. And way to point out ONE stat, which I included out of 9, all of which Rubio demolishes Rose in.

In comment 13335161 dep026 said:

Quote:

the TWolves have far more talent surrounding Rubio than the Knicks do and they still completey suck ass. Probably because their PG is one of the worst in the league.

Yea, not because they are the youngest team in the league or anything basically.

31.9 minutes and averages 4 rebounds. The other plays 31.6 minutes and averages 3.9. We all know I cant work calculators, but to me that doesnt seem like Rubio is a better rebounder by "a lot". To me, it seems like they are about equal.

And the majority of your stats you "showed" are team related stats that include O/D rating, which is based on team success and your teammates play. Are you going to argue that Rubio plays with LESS talent than Rose?

Rubio plays with two very good wing post defenders and two uber-athletic wings, and his rating is still terrible. Also, when we are discussing PLAYER evaluation, its usually good to use Player efficieny rating, which Rubio is awfl.

Some other advanced stats where rose is superior?

EWA
VA
USG (where Rubio I believe is the worst PG in the NBA)
TO% (where Rose is one of the best in the league)

In comment 13335166 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

In comment 13335161 dep026 said: Quote: the TWolves have far more talent surrounding Rubio than the Knicks do and they still completey suck ass. Probably because their PG is one of the worst in the league. Yea, not because they are the youngest team in the league or anything basically.

Lavine, Towns, and Wiggins are all playing extremely well. I dont see where Age is an issue. I do see where the PG is a problem though.

I said nothing about any Rubio/Rose trade or evaulation before sgcrts brought up his love for Rubio. ;)

In comment 13335168 dep026 said:

Quote:

31.9 minutes and averages 4 rebounds. The other plays 31.6 minutes and averages 3.9. We all know I cant work calculators, but to me that doesnt seem like Rubio is a better rebounder by "a lot". To me, it seems like they are about equal. And the majority of your stats you "showed" are team related stats that include O/D rating, which is based on team success and your teammates play. Are you going to argue that Rubio plays with LESS talent than Rose? Rubio plays with two very good wing post defenders and two uber-athletic wings, and his rating is still terrible. Also, when we are discussing PLAYER evaluation, its usually good to use Player efficieny rating, which Rubio is awfl. Some other advanced stats where rose is superior? EWA VA USG (where Rubio I believe is the worst PG in the NBA) TO% (where Rose is one of the best in the league)

No, RPM is NOT AT ALL a team related stat. Neither is WS, BPM, or really any of them. Not at all.

VA and EWA are basically the same stat. Usage is not something that helps your case at all, since Rose is a high usage player and not an efficient one. Rose does have one of the best TO% in the league, but thats a lot easier when you rarely pass. His assist % is 69th in the league, whereas Rubio's is 19th.

So basically your case by statistics is non existent, so whats your case by the eye test?

PER is STRICTLY a box score stat, so it doesnt penalize bad defenders or help good defenders that much. That is a factual statement that is unarguable.

I've already stated that its entirely possible neither are winning players, and if you think Rubio is a trash player, yet there is much evidence he is a better player then Rose, what does that make Rose as a player? Even if you think Rose is better, its literally impossible to make an argument he is on some other level of player then Rubio. So by default, that makes Rose a trash player. I'm entirely uninvested in Rubio as a player, so calling him trash is fine with me as long as it comes with the agreement that Rose is also a trash player.

He played AWESOME at the end of that game though!

Harden, Westbrook, Cousins, Embiid, Derozen, Thomas, Wall, Davis, James, Lillard. Seems like the best players raise to the top when they are used/needed more.

So what do we have with Rubio again? A well below average offense player (as by PER) and an average defensive player (as by his defensive ranking). All in all, one of the worst starting PGs in the league.

about either player, but its clear as day that Rose is a better player, and its not particularly close either.

who is an amazing passer and such a glorious defender, with a very nice contract..... wouldnt you think the TWolves would want to keep him with all the talent they have rather than getting rid of him?

If they are looking to get rid of him, its because of 1 reason and 1 reason he only. He isnt good.

In comment 13335184 dep026 said:

Quote:

who is an amazing passer and such a glorious defender, with a very nice contract..... wouldnt you think the TWolves would want to keep him with all the talent they have rather than getting rid of him? If they are looking to get rid of him, its because of 1 reason and 1 reason he only. He isnt good.

Thats your defense when the guy you are defending was literally just traded for what YOU call a bunch of garbage, and both his new team and the fans of his new team are dying for him to be traded or just off the team in general?

In comment 13335179 dep026 said:

Quote:

Harden, Westbrook, Cousins, Embiid, Derozen, Thomas, Wall, Davis, James, Lillard. Seems like the best players raise to the top when they are used/needed more. So what do we have with Rubio again? A well below average offense player (as by PER) and an average defensive player (as by his defensive ranking). All in all, one of the worst starting PGs in the league.

Again, I don't think you understand what usage means. It is not a stat that has any reflection on how you are playing by itself.

Also, Rubio is not "well below average" by PER, since 13-15 is considered the PER of a rotation player.

And what do we have with Rose again? An average at best scorer with no other NBA skills and ATROCIOUS defense, literally one of the worst defenders at his position in the league.

Its truly unreal your deep man love for Derrick Rose.

In comment 13335191 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

In comment 13335184 dep026 said: Quote: who is an amazing passer and such a glorious defender, with a very nice contract..... wouldnt you think the TWolves would want to keep him with all the talent they have rather than getting rid of him? If they are looking to get rid of him, its because of 1 reason and 1 reason he only. He isnt good. Thats your defense when the guy you are defending was literally just traded for what YOU call a bunch of garbage, and both his new team and the fans of his new team are dying for him to be traded or just off the team in general?

Difference is the Bulls were going nowhere fast and the Wolves are loaded with young and upcoming talent. You and I both agree Rose's contract gives him no trade valllue. Rubio has a cheap contract - and yet they still want to get rid of him.

And yes... Grant and Lopez are garbage. If Rubio's strengths are as great as they say they are (his defense isnt) then Minny would have no reason to trade him since what they need is defense and a passer.

Dude, Rubio sucks and has for years. Rose has at least shown all-star type play for at times this year. Rubio has never showed it.

is "ATROCIOUS"

How would you cal Rubios at 110? Awful? Terrible? Disgraceful? You cant call it one of the best in the league (which you have done before). You cant call it good. you cant even call it average.

So Rubio cant shoot, defend, or be used in crunchtime. He can pass, that we ca nagree with.

nearly 9% better from the floor Than rubio and is shooting 85% from the line. A lot of guards would kill to shoot 46% from the floor.

defensive ratings..... Rubio plays for a MUCH better defensive (albeit awful Head coach) and much better defending teammates.

Learned a lot tonight.

cherry picking a bunch of info for things that you think benefit your argument, even when they don't.

Just out of curiosity- are your Rose underoos Knicks blue and orange or Bulls Red and black?

In comment 13335200 dep026 said:

Quote:

defensive ratings..... Rubio plays for a MUCH better defensive (albeit awful Head coach) and much better defending teammates.

Rubio has a positive 4 net rating, Rose has a negative 9.

In comment 13335055 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

OG Anunoby (Indiana) out for the season - knee surgery. Projected lottery pick and a favorite of mine for the Knicks in the 10-15 range.

I really think he needs to stay in school. It was crazy watching him his freshman year-he didn't play much but he would do crazy things that would make you fawn over him.

Year 2 he's taken a bigger role but I honestly still have no idea what he is as a player. He has some of the craziest dunks I've seen, but he also has head scratching plays. Is he a small ball 4? He certainly can defend 3, maybe 4 positions. But he isn't a notable rebounder. He has shown range but he's far from a reliable shooter at all. He's really strong, but when he posts up he's mechanical and attacks the rim with blinders on which leads to turnovers.

I've watched almost every single game he's played and I still don't know what to come up with. Sometimes I think he's going to be Kawhi. Other times I think he's going to be Stanley Johnson. The ceiling is high but the floor can be low if he enters the league when he's not polished like Noah Vonleh. For his sake, I hope he stays for at least another year.

On the bulls the last several years.
So this desire to defend him now is odd.

In comment 13335252 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

On the bulls the last several years. So this desire to defend him now is odd.

Because he played poorly. He shot a ton of 3s and never looke for his pull up jumper. He was shooting 4-5 threes a game and shooting them poorly. This year he is attacking and doing much better.

juat so i dont have to read these threads anymore..

I agree. They turn into some nerd wannabe whose never played the game but can read spreadsheets. It's ridiculous.

that my Rose for Rubio proposal inspired a total Dep + Kmed meltdown.

In comment 13335264 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

juat so i dont have to read these threads anymore..

These Knicks threads are like something out of Groundhog Day. Every day I click on them and every day it's the same exact arguments going down. Nobody is ever going to change anyone else's mind so I'm not sure what repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again has accomplished.

Oh well, sorry to interrupt. Now back to your regularly scheduled Rose debates...

Knicks currently sit with the 11th worst record. I guess it has to start with the melo trade. Is Phil just letting the frustration rise to put more pressure on melo?

You'd rather teams call us with interest(I think we have some guys teams would want), just announce that everyone is available and let teams call us.

I am trying to rectify the situation. I asked Eric to add a calculator function to BBI so when the game is going on, we can calculate how one is playing.

on the game winning 3 was....something. Such a dumb player.

In comment 13335281 Keith said:

Quote:

Knicks currently sit with the 11th worst record. I guess it has to start with the melo trade. Is Phil just letting the frustration rise to put more pressure on melo? You'd rather teams call us with interest(I think we have some guys teams would want), just announce that everyone is available and let teams call us.

thevsad part is the 8th place team only has 21 wins..

the bucks have lost 4 in a row..

knicks win 2 and they are tge 8th seed, its crazy

In comment 13335283 dep026 said:

Quote:

I am trying to rectify the situation. I asked Eric to add a calculator function to BBI so when the game is going on, we can calculate how one is playing.

Yet I literally asked you by the eye test what specifically makes Rose a vastly superior player to the garbage Rubio and you just replied with more stats.

And Carl, I can assure you my physical conditioning would disgrace yours. Some of us can not be afraid of math and at the same time, be real live physical humans who play sports and stay active.

its like people dont understand what helpside defense is. Please inform me who is responsible for the roll guy on the high screen?

for KP and Melo. 26 shots for Rose. Selfish....

In comment 13335297 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

In comment 13335283 dep026 said: Quote: I am trying to rectify the situation. I asked Eric to add a calculator function to BBI so when the game is going on, we can calculate how one is playing. Yet I literally asked you by the eye test what specifically makes Rose a vastly superior player to the garbage Rubio and you just replied with more stats. And Carl, I can assure you my physical conditioning would disgrace yours. Some of us can not be afraid of math and at the same time, be real live physical humans who play sports and stay active.

Ive answered it many times already. You see what you want to see. And it usually involved formuals. Rose is asked to carry a much bigger load and is better at it. Rubio on an all-star team can be functionable (odd that he sucks with a team full of talent though.)

In comment 13335291 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335281 Keith said: Quote: Knicks currently sit with the 11th worst record. I guess it has to start with the melo trade. Is Phil just letting the frustration rise to put more pressure on melo? You'd rather teams call us with interest(I think we have some guys teams would want), just announce that everyone is available and let teams call us. thevsad part is the 8th place team only has 21 wins.. the bucks have lost 4 in a row.. knicks win 2 and they are tge 8th seed, its crazy

We can't be delusional enough to not see the opportunity here, right? We took a shot, this team won't work. The talent is there, but it's clear the problem goes deeper. At this point, we are closer to the bottom, so flip the script and embrace that. We've done it before.

in the last two games in the 2nd half.

Oofa....

on the season. He's played more mins than every other guard on the team, yet 3 other guards have managed more steals. Is he even trying out there on defense? Lazy...

when will he ever contest a shot? We know it wont be with the game on the line against a 6'0 guard.

Guys have no idea who to pick up. Too often we have 2 players covering the same guy and leaving someone open. Too often when we get picked, the other guy doesn't close off the drive. Too often we sag off good shooters to clog the lane and it leaves the 3 wide open. The problem is coaching too.

I know there are certain posters who want to be right so bad so they look to point at rose, who isn't a very smart defender, but he gives effort. I'll take that any day over melo who is the one constant on 10 years of bad defenses. You cannot win with melo as a key player, especially not now where he's lost so much offensively.

In comment 13335264 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

juat so i dont have to read these threads anymore..

Amen, brother.

In comment 13335291 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335281 Keith said: Quote: Knicks currently sit with the 11th worst record. I guess it has to start with the melo trade. Is Phil just letting the frustration rise to put more pressure on melo? You'd rather teams call us with interest(I think we have some guys teams would want), just announce that everyone is available and let teams call us. thevsad part is the 8th place team only has 21 wins.. the bucks have lost 4 in a row.. knicks win 2 and they are tge 8th seed, its crazy

Doesn't help that they blew all the easy games on the schedule. These next 5 games are rough with 4 on the road and the one home game being against Charlotte. Before the tread deadline next month they play the Cavs, Thunder and Spurs with the Lakers, clips and nets mixed in.

I'm not sure how bad things have to get before Phil is forced to make changes.

In comment 13335307 dep026 said:

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when will he ever contest a shot? We know it wont be with the game on the line against a 6'0 guard.

Man, your need to bash Melo whenever a bad word is said about Rose is neurotic.

In comment 13335374 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 13335307 dep026 said: Quote: when will he ever contest a shot? We know it wont be with the game on the line against a 6'0 guard. Man, your need to bash Melo whenever a bad word is said about Rose is neurotic.

Its odd that you havent picked up what I am doing.

but to be fair to dep...the same people that constantly bash Rose(whether its warranted or not) are the same ones that constantly defend melo. IMO, Melo is the biggest problem on this team so I think it's fair for people who defend Rose to then say that. Rose has his problems, but he's been a key player on a lot of good defenses. Melo has never been that guy. So when the defense looks like it does, why does Melo get a pass? He is a major problem on this defense and "hiding" him at the 4 is going to make it worse.

Melo, right now, may be the most overrated player in sports - just not in the NBA today. It will be an absolute crime if he makes the AS team.

In comment 13335381 Keith said:

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but to be fair to dep...the same people that constantly bash Rose(whether its warranted or not) are the same ones that constantly defend melo. IMO, Melo is the biggest problem on this team so I think it's fair for people who defend Rose to then say that. Rose has his problems, but he's been a key player on a lot of good defenses. Melo has never been that guy. So when the defense looks like it does, why does Melo get a pass? He is a major problem on this defense and "hiding" him at the 4 is going to make it worse.

Didn't the 2013 Knicks have a top 3 defense?

Anyways I don't want to get involved in this endless debate. I think I'm an anamoly from the group you're calling out. Fuck Melo AND fuck Rose. Now both can go kindly fuck off on to other teams.

disappointed when Rose signs a 4 year deal with you guys in the offseason. He wont get the max. But he will get close to it.

In comment 13335394 dep026 said:

Quote:

disappointed when Rose signs a 4 year deal with you guys in the offseason. He wont get the max. But he will get close to it.

0 chance that happens. He may be 3 years to line up with Noah and Lee. But they wont max him at 4.

yesterday? The MVP is a stats driven award and although Harden has been unreal this season Id be hard pressed to think why Kawhi doesn't deserve the award. He won't rack up 50 point games or triple doubles but night in, night out he knocks down shots with efficiency and maintains being the best defensive player in the league.

On a side note, did the Spurs really find their future starting PG with another late 1st rounder? Murray has been legit in the 2 games he's started. He's extremely quick and slippery, an absolute killer in transition.

In comment 13335396 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 13335394 dep026 said: Quote: disappointed when Rose signs a 4 year deal with you guys in the offseason. He wont get the max. But he will get close to it. 0 chance that happens. He may be 3 years to line up with Noah and Lee. But they wont max him at 4.

Ok, I can buy that. But he is either going to be a Knick or Bull, and I dont see the Bulls happening.

In comment 13335399 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335396 Jon in NYC said: Quote: In comment 13335394 dep026 said: Quote: disappointed when Rose signs a 4 year deal with you guys in the offseason. He wont get the max. But he will get close to it. 0 chance that happens. He may be 3 years to line up with Noah and Lee. But they wont max him at 4. Ok, I can buy that. But he is either going to be a Knick or Bull, and I dont see the Bulls happening.

Why? There are plenty of teams that would sign him. It just depends on what he wants and if he realizes that he isnt getting MVP money.

I just see him only go to those 2 places.

In comment 13335405 dep026 said:

Quote:

I just see him only go to those 2 places.

More I look at teams the more I can see Rose getting the max.

Sacramento: Total Kings move. Gay is leaving and they have max money to throw around and then some. He'd certainly cause hype there and he's actually levels better than anything the Kings had at PG since like Tyreke Evans.

Dallas: they are only at $60M in cap space and will be looking to move on from Williams (at least as a starter)

Orlando: looking for a PG, have max money.

Miami: if they move Dragic they will have like $70M in cap space and would need a PG. Think he'd be a good fit next to Whiteside too. When he drives in and takes two defenders he has the best cleanup Big to put away anytime he misses.

Denver: not likely but they could move a player to clear space. Mudiay sucks but their team is good. Plus, rose could be really good off the ball with Jokic feeding him back cuts.

In comment 13335414 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 13335405 dep026 said: Quote: I just see him only go to those 2 places. More I look at teams the more I can see Rose getting the max. Sacramento: Total Kings move. Gay is leaving and they have max money to throw around and then some. He'd certainly cause hype there and he's actually levels better than anything the Kings had at PG since like Tyreke Evans. Dallas: they are only at $60M in cap space and will be looking to move on from Williams (at least as a starter) Orlando: looking for a PG, have max money. Miami: if they move Dragic they will have like $70M in cap space and would need a PG. Think he'd be a good fit next to Whiteside too. When he drives in and takes two defenders he has the best cleanup Big to put away anytime he misses. Denver: not likely but they could move a player to clear space. Mudiay sucks but their team is good. Plus, rose could be really good off the ball with Jokic feeding him back cuts.

The slight problem is these teams will draft PGs if they are available, thus making Rose or any other PG not worth the money. The Kings are interesting since they may lose their pick.

The Nets.

because he's here and we're dumb money. But a team like Sacramento could easily save our asses on this.

In comment 13335398 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

yesterday? The MVP is a stats driven award and although Harden has been unreal this season Id be hard pressed to think why Kawhi doesn't deserve the award. He won't rack up 50 point games or triple doubles but night in, night out he knocks down shots with efficiency and maintains being the best defensive player in the league. On a side note, did the Spurs really find their future starting PG with another late 1st rounder? Murray has been legit in the 2 games he's started. He's extremely quick and slippery, an absolute killer in transition.

I'm pretty much the biggest Kawhi fan around but he's not the best defensive player in the league. That goes to Rudy Gobert.

yeah I was thinking that. Dallas may be just good enough to not land one of the premier PGs.

Nets don't have their pick, if the kings get high enough of a pick to get a PG that means the sixers would just swap with them.

The magic won't even be in the top 10. Nuggets will make the playoffs. Rose would be fun to watch in Denver too. From a fan perspective that's where I'd want him to go. Mudiay is just a shitty rose in like every respect so getting Rose would be a clear upgrade to their team.

NO would be an interesting destination if they don't keep Holiday.

The Lakers if they lose their pick?

There will be like 5-6 teams I think that would be in the market for a PG even after you account for the 5 PGs in the draft that would deter teams from splurging on one.

In comment 13335426 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

In comment 13335398 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: yesterday? The MVP is a stats driven award and although Harden has been unreal this season Id be hard pressed to think why Kawhi doesn't deserve the award. He won't rack up 50 point games or triple doubles but night in, night out he knocks down shots with efficiency and maintains being the best defensive player in the league. On a side note, did the Spurs really find their future starting PG with another late 1st rounder? Murray has been legit in the 2 games he's started. He's extremely quick and slippery, an absolute killer in transition. I'm pretty much the biggest Kawhi fan around but he's not the best defensive player in the league. That goes to Rudy Gobert.

How's best perimeter defender?

A Rondo type deal- 2 years maybe with an option at 10-12 million.

In comment 13335431 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

A Rondo type deal- 2 years maybe with an option at 10-12 million.

I think that's a pipe dream too. I say 3-60.

In comment 13335432 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 13335431 Sgrcts said: Quote: A Rondo type deal- 2 years maybe with an option at 10-12 million. I think that's a pipe dream too. I say 3-60.

And I'll say 3-75 or 4-100

3 for 65.

So the Bulls front office isn�t sleeping through this 22-23 start after all. According to multiple sources, the Bulls have been actively shopping Rajon Rondo and Nikola Mirotic in hopes of shaking up the roster, as well as making a second-half run in the wide-open Eastern Conference. � via Chicago Sun-Times

However, according to one of the sources, neither player is moving the needle as far as what general manager Gar Forman deems a worthy return. �Obviously, you knew that would be the case with Rondo,�� the source said. �But they don�t like what they�re hearing back on [Mirotic] either. Then again, that�s a [front office] that tends to overvalue its assets.�� � via Chicago Sun-Times

The perception around the league is Jackson�s trade value is down with Jackson only being able to fetch the likes of Rubio or Sacramento Kings point guard Darren Collison � if the Pistons are insisting on getting back a starting-caliber point guard. � via Detroit Free Press

In comment 13335460 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

However, according to one of the sources, neither player is moving the needle as far as what general manager Gar Forman deems a worthy return. �Obviously, you knew that would be the case with Rondo,�� the source said. �But they don�t like what they�re hearing back on [Mirotic] either. Then again, that�s a [front office] that tends to overvalue its assets.�� � via Chicago Sun-Times

There's only 2 players on the Bulls that have any trade value (actually 3 if you include Portis who I think is going to be a really good player but they clearly have no interest in trying to develop him). They'll never part with Butler but this team has no future as constructed. They might even miss the playoffs this year and I don't see how they get better aside from overpaying for one of the average PGs coming onto the market.

Butler may net you 1-2 Nets picks and/or Crowder and they'd end up with 2 other high end first round picks as a byproduct of a crappy roster. Wade could probably net another few nice pieces too. But that'll never happen and they'll hold onto Butler for too long and continue to meddle in mediocrity.

really sure why Mirotic would have big trade value. What is his value? He's a tall stretch 4 who isn't a great shooter. I mean he's still youngish but he's basically a solid role player. Zero evidence of untapped upside.

and yes i am sorry deej and giantsfan you were right knicks should of done the same..

Has more value than mirotic. Mcdermott has flashed at times. Needs to play more. Better rebounder than I thought.

In comment 13335490 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

really sure why Mirotic would have big trade value. What is his value? He's a tall stretch 4 who isn't a great shooter. I mean he's still youngish but he's basically a solid role player. Zero evidence of untapped upside.

It's really gone downhill for him. You'd think on a team that's trying to squeeze any production out of anyone else outside Butler/Wade he'd get a lot of minutes. He's not a bad rebounder. If he was a 3 point threat he'd be a starter on many teams. Is he a terrible defender?

Don't know what the Bulls are doing at all. Not sure if it's Hoiberg or the front office but why the hell would this dude Paul zipper or whatever get minutes over Portis? Hoiberg was given the same roster as thibs and just took it downhill from there.

Trying to understand certain professional sports teams is pretty confusing.

keepimg rose and melo getting a lottery pick and the knicks hoping the pick contributes right away..

But you have to start playing willy and kuz consistently..

i could see jennings and oquinn traded at the deadline

In comment 13335506 dep026 said:

Quote:

Has more value than mirotic. Mcdermott has flashed at times. Needs to play more. Better rebounder than I thought.

I like McDermott but is he anything more than a guy you'd bring off the bench for 20 minutes in a playoff series? He's not good enough at rebounding to play major minutes at the 4 and he's certainly not a guy you'd want guarding starting SFs.

In comment 13335510 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

keepimg rose and melo getting a lottery pick and the knicks hoping the pick contributes right away.. But you have to start playing willy and kuz consistently.. i could see jennings and oquinn traded at the deadline

Hey is the sixers want to make a playoff run why not take Jennings? He'd be solid as a spot up shooter and secondary creator with Simmons back. I'd take a chance on a few of the young end of rotation guys that will never get run in philly like Hollis Thompson or richuan Holmes.

Quote:

New York is 15th offensively, and has been higher at times in the season. They are definitely good enough on offense to make the playoffs. But they are 25th defensively, and that's where they lose games. There's a lot of blame to go around for this. Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings are all poor defensive players for a variety of reasons. They push the pace but aren't in great shape to keep that up in finding guys in transition. But a big reason for it is schematic. The Knicks are 26th in defending spot-up plays this season, via Synergy Sports. Now, New York is actually middle of the pack in guarding 3-pointers per 100 possessions. How is that possible? Well, Synergy tracks plays where a player spots up, catches the ball and then drives either to the rim or a pull-up jumper. And the Knicks, especially their guards, are routinely out of position. Much of this is because of a scheme the Knicks employ under Kurt Rambis where the weakside wing defender overloads the side the ball is on, hoping to contain pick and roll, which forces them to recover rapidly when the ball reverses to the other side of the floor.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13335512 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 13335506 dep026 said: Quote: Has more value than mirotic. Mcdermott has flashed at times. Needs to play more. Better rebounder than I thought. I like McDermott but is he anything more than a guy you'd bring off the bench for 20 minutes in a playoff series? He's not good enough at rebounding to play major minutes at the 4 and he's certainly not a guy you'd want guarding starting SFs.

Actually your spot on with his abilities. And I think thats a type of guy a lot of teams can use. Obviously his defense is a problem. But I can see him playing a nice role on a contending team. He actually moves better than I thought and drives to the basket. I see him as a role/bench player who can contribute.

Frank IsolaVerified account
‏@FisolaNYDN

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The Knicks need to go 22-15 just to finish 41-41. So it looks like they'll fall just shy of the 65 wins Tommy D-minus predicted.

was admittedly pretty bullish on the Knicks this year, but I thought 46-50 wins was the ceiling.

Tommy Dipshit remains a clownshow.

is a total troll but Tommy Dee is such a moron that I enjoy when he gets shit on. He repeatedly defended the Bargnani move even when it was a proven disaster.

seems like a terrible person.

on Twitter after he challenged me to a fight.

In comment 13335615 Deej said:

Quote:

seems like a terrible person.

i dont get why he bothers with the dailynews, he does a ton of national media stuff and i am suree espn would hire him, he already does around the horn..

is a troll but this piece (not new) gives you some insight into why
Link - ( New Window )

Kenny DuceyVerified account ‏@KennyDucey 18h18 hours ago
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Carmelo Anthony is now shooting 4-of-29 in the last 10 seconds of games which the Knicks are losing by 3 or less, dating back to 2012�13

In comment 13335679 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Kenny DuceyVerified account ‏@KennyDucey 18h18 hours ago More Carmelo Anthony is now shooting 4-of-29 in the last 10 seconds of games which the Knicks are losing by 3 or less, dating back to 2012�13

clutch.

Knocks really are not set up to bad...

they have porzingis, willy and kuz who look could be nice pieces going forward..

looks like they will have a lottery pick..

they will have 2 more 2nd rounders..

they will have cap space if they let rose go..

could have more if they let melo go..

to be honest at this moment they are going to keep losing anyway might as well keep rose and melo unless they get blow away by an offer and add picks to this group..

having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half:

B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2

Lakers down 67-33.

In comment 13335751 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half: B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2 Lakers down 67-33.

Still cant believe there were people calling hiim over simmons for number 1 pick.

Ingram was nowhere near ready to come out.

In comment 13335790 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335751 Jon in NYC said: Quote: having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half: B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2 Lakers down 67-33. Still cant believe there were people calling hiim over simmons for number 1 pick. Ingram was nowhere near ready to come out.

This draft class is lucky Embiid got hurt. Otherwise we'd be talking about it as one of the all time worst rookie classes in NBA history.

In comment 13335619 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

is a troll but this piece (not new) gives you some insight into why Link - ( New Window )

Seems like a real stand up guy. Always everyone else's fault but his own. Of course he didn't have ANYTHING to do with the poor relationship, right?

In comment 13335682 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335679 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Kenny DuceyVerified account ‏@KennyDucey 18h18 hours ago More Carmelo Anthony is now shooting 4-of-29 in the last 10 seconds of games which the Knicks are losing by 3 or less, dating back to 2012�13 clutch.

Hater. He's average clutch in end of game situations, per ESPN. Right there with Durant, Paul and Wade, way better than Lebron.
Link - ( New Window )

since joining the Knicks. Has to be historically bad, can you get those stats?

In comment 13335791 Jon in NYC said:

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In comment 13335790 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 13335751 Jon in NYC said: Quote: having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half: B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2 Lakers down 67-33. Still cant believe there were people calling hiim over simmons for number 1 pick. Ingram was nowhere near ready to come out. This draft class is lucky Embiid got hurt. Otherwise we'd be talking about it as one of the all time worst rookie classes in NBA history.

Embiid still isn't part of this draft class. This draft class still remains pathetic.

2 guys that are going to make the All rookie first team aren't even from this draft.

And if Willy and Kuz got 20-23 mpg consistently both would be on the 2nd team IMO.

In comment 13335790 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 13335751 Jon in NYC said: Quote: having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half: B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2 Lakers down 67-33. Still cant believe there were people calling hiim over simmons for number 1 pick. Ingram was nowhere near ready to come out.

Yup. I thought (and still think) Ingram was gonna be a pretty good NBA player one day but I was at a loss that people were trying to turn Simmons vs Ingram into a debate.

People (even teams) take college team success too much into account when evaluating players. That's the only reason Frank Kaminsky was taken in the lottery of a great draft.

It will be silly if that comes into play with Markelle Fultz this year.

In comment 13335822 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 13335790 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 13335751 Jon in NYC said: Quote: having one of the all time worst games in NBA history at the half: B. Ingram SF 17 1-7 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 3 -34 2 Lakers down 67-33. Still cant believe there were people calling hiim over simmons for number 1 pick. Ingram was nowhere near ready to come out. Yup. I thought (and still think) Ingram was gonna be a pretty good NBA player one day but I was at a loss that people were trying to turn Simmons vs Ingram into a debate. People (even teams) take college team success too much into account when evaluating players. That's the only reason Frank Kaminsky was taken in the lottery of a great draft. It will be silly if that comes into play with Markelle Fultz this year.

That's insane. People liked Frank because he's a true center who can shoot and had elite passing ability. The Hornets managed to fuck that up by playing him exclusively at the 4. Don't put that on Frank.

With no rim protection or rebounding?

He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender.

Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games.

I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well.

Added, the Bulls may not keep guard Dwyane Wade past this season, according to Hoops Rumors. Wade has a player option to become a free agent next season. If the Bulls opt to rebuild, Wade could opt to join the Cavaliers or Knicks via free agency.
Link - ( New Window )

If Parker and ginobili retire next season I'd love to see SA get him.

In comment 13335841 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

With no rim protection or rebounding? He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender. Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games. I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well.

Frank as a featured player would be Brook Lopez.

In comment 13335854 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Added, the Bulls may not keep guard Dwyane Wade past this season, according to Hoops Rumors. Wade has a player option to become a free agent next season. If the Bulls opt to rebuild, Wade could opt to join the Cavaliers or Knicks via free agency. Link - ( New Window )

draft a point guard, let rose go and sign wade lol...

In comment 13335861 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

If Parker and ginobili retire next season I'd love to see SA get him.

at this point he would probably go play with one of his friends

left Miami over money, now he's turning down 23.8 million to become a FA? I find it hard to believe.

In comment 13335863 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 13335841 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: With no rim protection or rebounding? He hasn't shown NBA range. He's getting outplayed by Cody Zeller because he's a better rebounder, defender, and pick and roll threat. He can't beat out Marvin Williams at the 4 because he isn't much of a deep threat or defender. Not saying Frank is on an ideal team but his team isn't bad and they don't need him much to win games. I like Frank but I didn't see him much more than a plus bench guy in the league. He's turning 24 already. Booker and Turner were too much, much better upside guys taken after him. Dekker was the better Wisco pro prospect and looks like he's gonna be a stud. I'd take Portis, RHJ and Lyles over Frank as well. Frank as a featured player would be Brook Lopez.

So the best player on the worst team in the NBA?

Frank on a contending team is someone you give 20 minutes off the bench a night to play stretch 4 and keep the offense going (assuming he one day becomes an even league average NBA 3 point shooter). He's not even as good of a 3 point shooter as brook Lopez. Having him matchup against Howard, Whiteside, Cousins, Gobert, Draymond, etc. is the equivalent of bringing a chiseled wooden stick to a nuclear war.

Right now he looks a lot closer to a poor man's Dario saric than Brook Lopez. Dario can at least shoot, rebound and keep up with PFs on defense, unlike Frank.

isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets.

In comment 13335970 Jon in NYC said:

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isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets.

He's not a 5 when he's as good as a rebounder as Carmelo Anthony, less nimble than Kevin love and weaker than KP.

In comment 13336003 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

In comment 13335970 Jon in NYC said: Quote: isn't a 4. That's why you're wrong as are the Hornets. He's not a 5 when he's as good as a rebounder as Carmelo Anthony, less nimble than Kevin love and weaker than KP.

Well for starters, he should be less nimble than Love. He's a center.

And the other two are wrong.

Both regular and advanced are right on par with Carmelo's.

If it was so obvious that he's some all star at the center position but Barry playable at the 4 you think the Hornets wouldn't have needed to sign Roy fucking hibbert.

Frank had way too many flaws to be a lottery pick in the draft and he's shown absolutely nothing to prove me otherwise.

not pretend like the Hornets are some super well run organization.

It's okay, take the L on this one. I don't really have any interest in talking about Big Frank anymore.

I'll leave you with this:

If he's a true 5 he's not meant for this age of small ball lineups anyways.

Loved him in college, have nothing against him, just don't think he's a starter on a .500+ team.

players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.

In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:

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players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.

In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:

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players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.

Well Jon went to Wisco so I get his allegiance to Frank.

Met Frank a few times too. Good dude.

In comment 13336109 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

Met Frank a few times too. Good dude.

Interned with a dude last summer who knew frank and had a friend who was pretty much best friends with him. He was friends with him on snapchat and he'd be test driving Porsches and rapping on weekdays like within a week of being drafted. Dudes living the life no doubt.

In comment 13336091 Sgrcts said:

Quote:

players. At least Rose once was good. Kaminsky is at best like a 7th/8th man on a mediocre team.

Yeah like ricky rubio.

I'm not clear on if that is a negative or a positive comparison.

Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion.

10 points, 8 boards, 9 assists, 3 steals. +14 on the floor. Made both 3s. Twolves win.

Let the changing of the (point) guard begin.

In comment 13336249 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion.

Seems like a weird comment. He's an NBA player. That's why he's in an NBA discussion.

And his game is similar to Brook's. So chill.

In comment 13336170 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I'm not clear on if that is a negative or a positive comparison.

I don't value Brook highly as a player, but his game reminds me of Franks if he was given more opportunities.

My views on Brook aren't that dissimilar. I don't think he's anything more than if Enes Kanter couldn't rebound and was the #1 scoring option on a team. Frank is certainly a smarter player and better passer.

If not for Willy I'd have entertained the idea of acquiring Frank to pair next to KP long term.

In comment 13336269 dep026 said:

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10 points, 8 boards, 9 assists, 3 steals. +14 on the floor. Made both 3s. Twolves win. Let the changing of the (point) guard begin.

Ironically Ricky Rubio would be a fantastic fit in Denver if he ever had one. Whenever they don't have Faried on the court they have 4 guys who can shoot 3s. Clear upgrade over Mudiay (although at this point in time who wouldn't be?).

Unfortunately they're gonna probably see this Mudiay project all the way through

In comment 13336280 Jon in NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 13336249 hitdog42 said: Quote: Just because a player went to Wisconsin doesn't mean he should show up in any NBA discussion. Seems like a weird comment. He's an NBA player. That's why he's in an NBA discussion. Do you watch the NBA? And his game is similar to Brook's. So chill.

Lopez is a bad rebounder that is where the comp starts and ends

One shoots 59 percent career and has one of the few legit post up games for a center in the NBA. The other shoots 40 percent

Lopez is actually a better 3 pt shooter now.
One blocks shots the other blocks nothing .

Their games don't remotely resemble each other .

Not 59 obviously

of Frank haters. This is all he has to say to you:



Brook can't touch those moves.

and maybe that has to do with how he is used. But Lopez is one of those less than average players who put up decent numbers. Whoopie, he can shoot 3s now. He is exposed in pick and rolls, cant rebound for shit, and doesnt make his teammates better.

also a stater of opinions as facts...

why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player...
averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him.

- Not going to beat the Warriors when Curry/Thompson go 14/22 from 3

- I wasn't a big Aaron Gordon guy in college/draft, came around a bit/bought the hype despite being a tweener but he's really been disappointing this season. I'm guessing in part due to the roster

- Hasn't played a ton but I think the Warriors found a real gem in McCaw.

-Brandon Ingram... 1 rebound in 36 minutes, 0 assists...awful... -45 for the game

-Jokic last 5 26.2 11.2 and 3.4... stud

-Towns 32 12 and 7 (29 and 13 last 5 games! 2 blocks, 3 assists, he's almost taken for granted at this point)

-Dunn 10, 9 and 8... bye Rubio lol

In comment 13336586 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

also a stater of opinions as facts... why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player... averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him.

I used PER to compare players of the same position. Using PER across the board is stupid since players have different responsibilities.

Lopez is not good. Getting 5 rebounds a game is an absolute joke for a 7'1 player.

In comment 13336607 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

- Not going to beat the Warriors when Curry/Thompson go 14/22 from 3 - I wasn't a big Aaron Gordon guy in college/draft, came around a bit/bought the hype despite being a tweener but he's really been disappointing this season. I'm guessing in part due to the roster - Hasn't played a ton but I think the Warriors found a real gem in McCaw. -Brandon Ingram... 1 rebound in 36 minutes, 0 assists...awful... -45 for the game -Jokic last 5 26.2 11.2 and 3.4... stud -Towns 32 12 and 7 (29 and 13 last 5 games! 2 blocks, 3 assists, he's almost taken for granted at this point) -Dunn 10, 9 and 8... bye Rubio lol

Gordon isnt a 3. Their dearth of big guys is mystifying. Vucevic and Biyombo pairing isnt working. Ibaka is a fish out of water. Heronjza isnt even playing. Thats a bad situation down there.

Towns is a beast and wont even make the ASG.

Bye, bye rubio is right. But I am sure thibs will trade for Jackson and stunt Dunn's growth even more.

Lopez is a good player. Very good scorer, has holes in most other parts of his game, although some of those are overblown (his D isnt bad; aspects of it are bad, aspects are good). The rebounding was on the upswing but is terrible again this season.

there is an argument that has been made that Lopez is a good rebounder -- he gets the rebounds that are near him at a good rate. He just devotes so much energy to boxing out that he more sets up teammates for rebounds than gets them himself.
Link - ( New Window )

is an awesome site. Anyway they have their own (I think they created it) stat called TPA explained as thus-

Quote:

TPA Model The concept of total points added (TPA), isn�t particularly complicated. We�re looking at both defensive and offensive effectiveness on a per-possession basis while also incorporating the amount of playing time the contributor in question receives. At the heart of the theory is this comparison between two hypothetical players: Player A makes an average team 5 points better per 100 possessions than an average player would in his spot, and he plays 500 possessions. Player B makes an average team 10 points better per 100 possessions than an average player would in his spot, and he plays 250 possessions. Player B is more effective on a per-possession basis�twice as effective, in fact. But Player A spends twice as much time on the court. Theoretically, they should have identical values, as they would both add 25 points to an average team. As such, the formula for TPA is rather simple. It�s broken down into two parts�offensive points added (OPA) and defensive points saved (DPS)�and each is calculated in the same vein. OPA is derived by adjusting offensive box plus/minus (OBPM) to account for the number of possessions the player in question is present for. Similarly, DPS is derived from a similar adjustment of defensive box plus/minus (DBPM) with that same number of possessions. OBPM and DBPM, both calculated by Basketball-Reference.com, estimate the per-100-possessions value of a player on either end of the court. Add OPA and DPS together, and you have TPA. A score of zero indicates a player was perfectly average (by no means a bad thing for rookies or lifelong end-of-bench players), while anything positive means they were better than an average-level replacement.

Anyway, the top names in the NBA are exactly where you would expect them to be (Russ, Harden, Durant, Giannis, Lebron) the top 5 but #7... Kyle Lowry, I know he's underrated but wow. Other "surprises" Jokic #13, Gobert #14

But I wonder how much Minnesota wants to invest in Dunn being the starting PG. He's no doubt a beast defensively but he's turning 23 soon. Let him start the rest of the season but if they end up with a shot at getting one of the stud PGs in the draft I'm not sure if Dunn would be the reason they pass over one.

They're also only 2.5 games out of the 8 spot so who knows what they do this season.

healer ever

Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago
More
Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.

Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career.

In comment 13336680 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

healer ever Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago More Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.

he milks everything and i think that is part of the reason why melo and smith did not want him back on the knicks..

good for him though, milked mediocre talent into an nba career

In comment 13336680 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

healer ever Mark Herrmann ‏@markpherrmann 20s20 seconds ago More Nets say Jeremy Lin has had a setback, out another 3-5 weeks.

Its just amazing... the one positive is the team sucks anyway and its allowed Isiah Whitehead to play more and look like a future NBA player in some capacity--- also Levert and RHJ.
but god its awful and shows up in the 2nd half of every game

to draft a stud PG in the deepest PG draft in history....

Oh wait...

In comment 13336682 giantsfan44ab said:

Quote:

Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career.

He grew up. That's really what it is. Talent was always there, but he was living off only that. He's become a basketball player now.

In comment 13336701 EricNY33 said:

Quote:

In comment 13336682 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: Don't remember a player hitting their peak in their 30s as an all star after being average to start their career. He grew up. That's really what it is. Talent was always there, but he was living off only that. He's become a basketball player now.

But he wasn't ever a great athlete. He became an all star because he out hustles everybody and bullies guys in the paint-something I've never seen out of a PG. He also was never a great 3 point shooter and he's now shooting like 40%.

In comment 13336676 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

is an awesome site. Anyway they have their own (I think they created it) stat called TPA explained as thus-

So they have Noah as the best Knick, #47 in the NBA, based exclusively on his defense (negative offense score). Then KOQ in the 60s, Melo around 95, KP 103, then Plumlee in the 120s as a zero net value player. Everyone else negative. Rose and Jennings as our worst players, based mostly on their D.

Draymond Green as good as his rep (#10 best player) #1 offensively.

In comment 13336631 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 13336586 hitdog42 said: Quote: also a stater of opinions as facts... why would you use PER in your two faced over 2 years Rose slobbering earlier in this thread... and now PER i guess doesn't matter? when its above 21 you usually are a solid NBA player...maybe not all star caliber, but a very good NBA player... averaging 19,7 and 2 blocks on a 49 win team is also below average... the 1 time he was on a team constructed around him. I used PER to compare players of the same position. Using PER across the board is stupid since players have different responsibilities. Lopez is not good. Getting 5 rebounds a game is an absolute joke for a 7'1 player.

That's not how PER or really any all in stat works. The whole general purpose of any all in stat is to do exactly that, to compare players through positions and through history.