NFT: Knicks Chat: KOQ/Spurs fit?

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fits as a rotation/backup big on nearly every contender. I think he's worth more than a 1st rounder in the 25-30 range though. Would have to be more coming back than that. This trade deadline might be where you can get the most back for him. He can opt out after next season. His value will only decrease the closer you get to that.

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move almost anyone on the roster but KOQ for such a late pick doesn't do much for me. Odds are very low you even find a player as good as him.

compared to other contenders. The like to pick.

I dont think that's enough value for KOQ, but I might make the trade anyway. I think Noah, KP, Willy, and Plumlee is enough center depth, even if Noah cant be counted on. Shoot, is it the end of the world if we end up having to give the two rookies the 48 minutes? What, are we going to blow our title shot?

Spurs have 5 rookie and 2nd year players, and the draft rights on a slew of other players (10 total, but only 4 since 2014). KOQ for Dejounte Murray? I'd consider adding a #2.

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pretty shocked how poorly Dunn has played. He's a rookie, I get it but he's 23 in March with a 7.92 PER

How many teams need at least one of the following: rebounding, center depth, a big with a 15 foot jumper. Answer is a lot. Frankly, if we werent so deep and committed to other guys at center I wouldnt dream of trading KOQ. Im convinced that if you put him on a Cleveland he'd be the toast of the league -- he's a better player than Shump, that's for sure. But on an incomplete Knicks team all you can see are flaws in guys games. I know it's not totally fair to compare a bench player playing 15 minutes often vs. backups to a starter, but here are two players per 36 and advanced #s this year:

Player 1: 14.9 points, 13.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .9 steals, .545/.000/.694, 20.4 PER, .149 WS48, 2.8 BPM, +9 net rating

Player 2: 16.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.6 3's, .8 steals, .450/.324/.831, 18.7 PER, .132 WS48, 3.4 BPM, +4 net rating

Player 1 is getting inconsistent minutes on lottery team I root for, and makes squat. Player 2 got a max deal from Boston this summer.

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In comment 13333849 Greg from LI said:

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I dont agree. He rebounds, plays a heady game, and is a willing and very good pick setter. He has a bigness about him that I like (not just height). I dont like him against starters, but he has potential to be an end of bench big.

looks we've gotten...Plumlee looks like he might be something slightly more than your typical end of the bench big stiff.

In comment 13333874 Deej said:

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How many teams need at least one of the following: rebounding, center depth, a big with a 15 foot jumper. Answer is a lot. Frankly, if we werent so deep and committed to other guys at center I wouldnt dream of trading KOQ. Im convinced that if you put him on a Cleveland he'd be the toast of the league -- he's a better player than Shump, that's for sure. But on an incomplete Knicks team all you can see are flaws in guys games. I know it's not totally fair to compare a bench player playing 15 minutes often vs. backups to a starter, but here are two players per 36 and advanced #s this year: Player 1: 14.9 points, 13.4 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, .9 steals, .545/.000/.694, 20.4 PER, .149 WS48, 2.8 BPM, +9 net rating Player 2: 16.4 points, 7.4 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.9 blocks, 1.6 3's, .8 steals, .450/.324/.831, 18.7 PER, .132 WS48, 3.4 BPM, +4 net rating Player 1 is getting inconsistent minutes on lottery team I root for, and makes squat. Player 2 got a max deal from Boston this summer.

Which is why I'm not all that enthused getting an extremely late #1 for him. I would need another piece. Gimme Jean-Charles and Milutinov

like that Plumlee is high energy/knows his limitations. NDour over Randle on the other hand is annoying. He's "so" good defensively that a defense starved team doesn't give him minutes despite having international experience. It's not a big deal but strange move to me.

In comment 13333891 DanMetroMan said:

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Which is why I'm not all that enthused getting an extremely late #1 for him. I would need another piece. Gimme Jean-Charles and Milutinov

As I said, fair position. In prior threads I've put KOQ's value as very late lottery thru pick 20, and I stand by that. My only concern is asset value rot. KOQ's value is likely never going to be higher, and Willy really needs run.

feel like they could find minutes for Willy even with KOQ here. I think his defense is why he doesn't play more (how exactly is that going to improve as he sits on the bench?).

He's proven in a very small amount of time that he's worth giving a look to, but that's all we know. Writing him off is almost as bad as saying he can bring what Noah brings.

I'm not trading Oquinn just to trade him. He might be a good throw in to get a trade done. His salary is fantastic and he's a good rotational player. If we are able to trade one of the high salary guys, it might be good to have Q'quinn around to entice another team.

We aren't getting much for him. His per 36 and advanced numbers were fantastic when he hit FA in Orlando and look how much he got. He's getting even less minutes than he did in Orlando on a team that has severe defensive/rim protection issues.

This team wouldn't have played Russian roulette by spending $72M on a washed up center if he was that integral to a 30 win teams success.

I do think he is miscast but a single first rounder is the absolute most you'll be getting from him, if that.

He's been much better this season. If he had this year last year, we may not have been so aggressive finding a center. Last year he was fat, out of shape and wasn't contributing as much as he is now.

for a 2nd round pick.

In comment 13333922 Keith said:

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He's been much better this season. If he had this year last year, we may not have been so aggressive finding a center. Last year he was fat, out of shape and wasn't contributing as much as he is now.

So he's getting 3.5 more minutes than last year. He certainly is more efficient but he's just as foul prone as ever and this defense is just as bad as it was.

I'm not advocating to auction him off to the highest bidder regardless of the cost but I simply don't think there's much of a market for him. I think trading Noah to MIN/MIL is much more likely if he continues his improvement.

Willy needs to play. And Plumlee is doing typical Plumlee things. I would be ok trading KOQ, Noah or Plumlee. Would prefer to hold on to Willy.

In comment 13333938 Heisenberg said:

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Willy needs to play. And Plumlee is doing typical Plumlee things. I would be ok trading KOQ, Noah or Plumlee. Would prefer to hold on to Willy.

I think Willy is probably the second most untouchable player on the team, although I could definitely see him put in a big deal as a sweetener. He's not a good player yet but shows potential and is in one of the most team friendly deals in the NBA. His deal is the inverse of the Noah deal.

Fan vote:
Derrick Rose-6th highest votes amongst guards
Carmelo-6th amongst frontcourt players
KP-7th amongst frontcourt players

Player vote:
KP-5th amongst frontcourt players
Carmelo-6th amongst frontcourt players
Rose-9th amongst guards

Media vote-Not sure whey their vote means anything, but KP was the only one to get 1 vote.

Not sure why the fan votes mean anything.

the fans are the ones who pay. Obviously it also means that it won't be based on merit.

To me, the media vote should mean nothing. They shouldn't get a special vote for anything. Not awards, all-stars, HOF, nothing. Why not give the coaches a vote instead of the media.

I like that Rose gets respect amongst his peers, even though he gets absolutely destroyed on a regular basis on these threads by a select few.

In comment 13334012 Keith said:

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the fans are the ones who pay. Obviously it also means that it won't be based on merit. To me, the media vote should mean nothing. They shouldn't get a special vote for anything. Not awards, all-stars, HOF, nothing. Why not give the coaches a vote instead of the media. I like that Rose gets respect amongst his peers, even though he gets absolutely destroyed on a regular basis on these threads by a select few.

Yeah agree on coaches.

And Zaza fucking Pachulia was 12th in player vote in the WC so I wouldn't pat yourself on the back like this solidifies your Rose-MVP argument or whatever it is you're trying to promote.

Kobe Bryant was one of the worst players in history last year given his time played and efficiency and was voted a starter. Average players get selected all the time, nothing new at all.

is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

In comment 13334033 Keith said:

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is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

Fair enough. I just want to clean the slate with this team as much as possible. Never seen so much debate over an average professional athlete as I have on here.

because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks.

He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba.

In comment 13334033 Keith said:

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is that I'm glad his peers voted for him. He was 9th in player voting amongst guards. Fan voting means little to nothing, media voting doesn't mean much. Not patting myself on the back, I just strongly disagree with the vitriol that Rose gets on bbi, that's it.

Unless he's ranked there because it is a popularity contest and nothing more.

In any event, rank on the list (i.e. being 9th) is a terrible metric. Rose got 14 votes on 324 ballots. The top 6 guards (and I think there is a clear top 6 in the East) got 130, 92, 91, 49, 40, and 31. Wade got 33. Beal was 8th at 16, Rose and Teague t9 at 14, Batum had 10, Bradley 8, blah blah blah. Lee got 6. Rose was merely near the front of the pack of guys who were not even competitive with the 3 real candidates -- Kyrie, Thomas, and Derozan.

That's not a swipe at Rose. Just an acknowledgment that using this vote as a proxy for players saying Rose is the 9th best guard in the East I think is wrong.

Also, these votes are an embarrassment. Put Rose aside. 14 NBAers thought Jeff Teague > Kryrie and Thomas? 6 said Courtney Lee? It's clear guys are voting for friends and teammates. Michael Beasley got 5 votes. Okafor 4. Lance Thomas got 1. Marshall Plumlee 2. Jerian 2.

In comment 13334037 giantsfan44ab said:

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because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks. He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba.

Schroeder got 3 player votes. That's Jerian + Justin Holiday.

It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

I think he can be the type of hard nosed gritty player off the bench that helps teams win. The problem is the team is so thin right now that when he is in people hope/expect to see him carry more of a load where he really is suited to be a smaller piece of the puzzle.

He seems like a smart player who knows his limits and how to best use his strengths. I think he will improve with playing time.

In comment 13334045 Deej said:

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In comment 13334037 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: because a player like Dennis Schroder will never get acknowledged because no one cares about that Atlanta Hawks. He's obviously not on par with Lowry, wall, thomas but I think he's been the 5th best PG in the east after Kemba. Schroeder got 3 player votes. That's Jerian + Justin Holiday.

That's just disgusting. Maybe it's because he's still young and not many people rooting for other teams would even know who he is. But there is a clear class of 5 PGs in the east and the rest you can more or less and mix and match and choose whoever (leaving Jackson off for now because he hasn't matched his stellar season for last year).

In comment 13334051 giantsfan44ab said:

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It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it.

So wait, you are actually suggesting that players are voting for guys that grew up in the same state while they were growing? I think that's a reach of epic proportions

Played in the same state while growing up...

In comment 13334058 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 13334051 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: It's the Indiana guys sticking up for each other. Lee, Conley, Teague, and Gordon all grew up in Indy playing each other in HS. Wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it. So wait, you are actually suggesting that players are voting for guys that grew up in the same state while they were growing? I think that's a reach of epic proportions

Sarcasm? What better explanation is there for saying Lee over Kyrie Irving? Would it be more of a reach than say, what tony Allen did when selecting his ballot?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2017/1/9/14218828/tony-allen-periscope-all-star-game-votes-nba

Is selectig names out of a hat better or worse than choosing your friends? What other explanation would there be for Plumlee and Okafor for getting player votes other than the fact they were teammates on a college championship team. Same goes for thomas. Or maybe it was a teammate just putting teammates on it.

Anthony has a no-trade clause in his contract, but he said he would be willing to listen to management if they told him they wanted to make a change.

“I think it will be more on the front office,” Anthony told Newsday this week. “I have the power, but still I would talk to them. We would be in communication if they feel like they want to go in a different direction, they want to start rebuilding for the future. If they tell me they want to scrap this whole thing, yeah, I have to consider it.”

The Knicks declined to comment.

Antony signed a five-year contract in 2014.

“There’s a part of me that also would feel like I’m being selfish to the guys that are on the team right now, in the midst of us losing to just try to figure a way to escape from everything. For me personally, it would be more of something I would really have to think about and consider. Put it all on the table and figure it out.”

The most substantive trade proposal generating buzz among the various team officials, scouts and agents assembled this week at the Hershey Centre: Orlando, according to league sources, recently tried to engage Miami on a Goran Dragic deal in which the Magic were said to be offering center Nikola Vucevic and a future first-round pick.

In comment 13334169 DanMetroMan said:

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“There’s a part of me that also would feel like I’m being selfish to the guys that are on the team right now, in the midst of us losing to just try to figure a way to escape from everything. For me personally, it would be more of something I would really have to think about and consider. Put it all on the table and figure it out.”

Counter to the "Melo doesnt care about winning" snipe.

at his word, then he's being fair. He's basically saying that he wants to be in NY and won't ask for a trade, but if management comes to him and says they want to blow it up he'd at least be willing to consider waiving the no trade clause.

In comment 13334171 DanMetroMan said:

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The most substantive trade proposal generating buzz among the various team officials, scouts and agents assembled this week at the Hershey Centre: Orlando, according to league sources, recently tried to engage Miami on a Goran Dragic deal in which the Magic were said to be offering center Nikola Vucevic and a future first-round pick.

Orlando is rearranging deck chairs. Oladipo+ for Ibaka. Sign Bismack and suddenly they have too much big. So now looking Vuc for Dragic. I think Miami can do better (and doesnt need a center). I havent seen much of Orlando this year but it looks like Elfrid got a bit better. Still, no one on the roster looks like they can be the #1 or #2 best player on a conference finals team, so what's the point?

I expect a lot of the trade talk is going to be about deals for guys with several years of control. I dont know that anyone is moving assets for this year, much like last season when dominance by GSW and CLE scared the whole market.

traded away for no great reason. Orlando seems like a child, unhappy with the whole meal, just pushing the food around on its plate with its fork.

I had some NBA scouts/executives tell me they prefer Ball. One said he likes Fox best. But the majority still favor Fultz, which isn't surprising. Yes, Washington has struggled this season; the Huskies are 9-9 overall and 2-4 in the Pac-12. But Fultz is not to blame. The 6-foot-4 freshman got 37 points, eight assists, five rebounds, three steals and three blocks in Wednesday's win over Colorado and is now averaging 23.1 points, 6.2 assists, 5.8 rebounds, 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game. Fultz is big and strong for his position. He can get into the lane or make shots from the perimeter -- proof being how Fultz is shooting 40.3 percent from 3-point range. Just the total package, really. There's basically nothing to not like.

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at getting a ring with the few remaining good years he has left.

I can't believe he wouldn't prefer being traded to a contending team at this point regardless of what he says publicly.

if we could geta top 3 pick. Fultz, Ball, Smith, Fox -- give me any of them. Use the #2s to get some gritty wing defenders. You have a team.

Can't go wrong with Ball he sure has been showing he can shoot it. Issue with Fox and Smith is shooting. Both look capable but Fultz is simply elite. How many guys that are considered top 10 PGs can't shoot the 3? Only Westbrook maybe? And he's probably one of the best athletes in American sports history.

I don't doubt Fox and Smith will be good/great NBA players but both aren't as complete as Fultz/Ball.

And yeah the magic are a mess. Slowly realizing that it may be more infuriating to be a magic fan than a Knicks fan. At least the Knicks hit on their draft picks when given the chance. I don't like really anyone on the magic roster except maybe Gordon. But he's a 4 and they need to surround him with shooters. Payton is yuck, hezonja has gone missing, Vuc is a backup scoring big, Fournier can shoot but can't play any D. I've been pretty skeptical on how good Ibaka really is. He's a good all around player but he's a 5th option on a good team. Not the #1 he's expected to be in Orlando.

but I'd love to buy low on him. I think expectations were out of whack with Hez -- he doesnt have the suddenness or bounce of the athletes he was grouped in with.

1. Melo and Jennings to Miami for Dragic, Winslow and Ellington

2. Melo, Jennings, Ndour for Gibson, Mirotic, Rondo and a 2017 #1

3. Melo, Plumlee for Love/Liggins

4. Melo, Plumlee for Jordan, Bass and Anderson

5. Melo, Ndour, Plumlee for the Nets 1st, Crowder, Jerebko, Crowder

(I'd do #5 in a millisecond, I suspect Ainge would hang up the phone). I'd do #2 as well, I'd probably do #3 because we get younger but our defense... yikes. Melo and Griffin seem like a terrible fit to me.

WTF are we gonna do with Jordan?