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NFT: Keith Law: MLB Farm Systems: Mets #7 Yankees #2

pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 10:59 am
FYI...

can't link the article because I am not and will never be an ESPN Insider subscriber.

Amazing the Mets with all the trades and graduations the past few years can have climbed back to #7, but Law is usually neutral on the Mets IMO (as opposed to the Red Sox who I think he overrates).

He gushes over the Yankees saying they have three of the top 6 prospects in baseball and basically says any of the top 3 could have been #1. Loves the trades they made.

if anyone has an Insider subscription and if anyone cares they can add more of his commentary.

Rankings don't mean a whole lot, but I always feel like it's better to be highly ranked than not.

Braves #1, SD #3. Pirates 4, Dodgers #5. That's all I can see.

I do have a link to metsmerizedonline that discusses the Mets ranking.

Mets were 16th in his rankings last year.
Law on Mets farm - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: Sweet  
giantsfan44ab : 1/20/2017 11:18 am : link
In comment 13333963 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13333950 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Some of these guys can make an impact at the MLB level around the same time the Yankees sign Harper.



whoever signs Harper is going to severely overpay and regret it for a long time. He's more hype than production. He is not Mike Trout.


He's better than anyone on the Yankees right now. Having Bird, Sanchez, Harper back to back to back would be unbelievable.
He has Smith and Rosario  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 11:18 am : link
as the top 2 Mets prospects, but also likes the pitching depth with some of the past couple drafts, Dunn, Szapucki, etc. and still considers Gsellman part of the farm, as he considers Swanson part of the Braves farm.

I think Swanson qualifies by one at-bat. Probably intentional, so he qualifies for rookie of the year.
Amazing how far the Yankees' farm has come.  
Dave in Hoboken : 1/20/2017 11:20 am : link
#2? Wow.
RE: Harper doesnt need to be Trout  
Victor in CT : 1/20/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13333968 Deej said:
Quote:
he needs to be a 4 fWAR player. I wouldnt worry about the Yankees money. There is no cap, and they have lots of it.


He does for the money he wants. And he has a doosh-like quality about him. NY may not be an ideal spot for him. And it's not solely about affording the money. It's about making your roster inflexible with an untradeable contract. (see Arod, Texiera, Ellsbury, Sabbathia)

RE: RE: Harper doesnt need to be Trout  
giantsfan44ab : 1/20/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13333985 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13333968 Deej said:


Quote:


he needs to be a 4 fWAR player. I wouldnt worry about the Yankees money. There is no cap, and they have lots of it.



He does for the money he wants. And he has a doosh-like quality about him. NY may not be an ideal spot for him. And it's not solely about affording the money. It's about making your roster inflexible with an untradeable contract. (see Arod, Texiera, Ellsbury, Sabbathia)


Really the Yankees are going to be hesitant about signing a douche bag?

All those guys were in their 30s when they got untraceable contracts. This dude is 24 right now and hit 40 HRs as a 22 year old. Wouldn't worry about his contract at all.
Mets 2014  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:30 am : link
12th rounder Alex Durham has retired
RE: He has Smith and Rosario  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13333976 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
as the top 2 Mets prospects, but also likes the pitching depth with some of the past couple drafts, Dunn, Szapucki, etc. and still considers Gsellman part of the farm, as he considers Swanson part of the Braves farm.

I think Swanson qualifies by one at-bat. Probably intentional, so he qualifies for rookie of the year.


Both Gsellman and Swanson barely qualified. Both are eligible for ROY this year. Lugo is ineligible (not that he was winning ROY).
I'd rather have Machado than Harper, although if Harper goes back to  
yatqb : 1/20/2017 11:36 am : link
the guy he was in that great year my feelings will change.

Can someone tell me who are those 3 of the top 6 Yankee prospects? I'm guessing Torres, Frazier and Kaprielian.
What's most impressive about the Braves system  
Jay on the Island : 1/20/2017 11:39 am : link
is the sheer quantity of pitching prospects. As we all know many of the pitching prospects do not live up to their potential but the Braves have accumulated so many that the odds are in their favor. Kolby Allard, Max Fried, Sean Newcomb, Mike Soroka, Touki Toussaint, Ian Anderson, Joey Wentz, Luiz Gohara, Lucas Sims, and Kyle Muller all have front of the rotation potential. That doesn't include Mike Foltynewicz who is poised for a breakout season this year. The Braves have also done a great job in the international market adding guys with Ozzie Albies, Ronald Acuna, and Kevin Maitan all looking like future stars.
RE: I'd rather have Machado than Harper, although if Harper goes back to  
giants#1 : 1/20/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13334001 yatqb said:
Quote:
the guy he was in that great year my feelings will change.

Can someone tell me who are those 3 of the top 6 Yankee prospects? I'm guessing Torres, Frazier and Kaprielian.


Torres and Frazier are likely, but I can't see Kaprielian that high, he hasn't really pitched yet. Maybe Mateo?
Ouch for the Phillies  
Metnut : 1/20/2017 11:44 am : link
to see their system so lowly regarded with their MLB team being so bad.
Phillies  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:48 am : link
system does have some star power however with Moniak, Crawford and Alfaro, Cozens and Hoskins both have potential 30 homer pop. Randolph had a disappointing season but will only be 20 this year, he's basically their "Dom Smith". Sixto Sanchez is a name to watch in terms of potential breakout.
Matt  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:49 am : link
Eddy has the Mets system 10-15 range for comparisons sake.
Sorry  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 11:50 am : link
I misread Law's comment about the Yankees having three of the top 6 prospects. That probably would have easily made them the #1 farm.

Here is what he said and I can only see part of the article b/c it's ESPN Insider.

Quote:
Brian Cashman went bananas once he got the green light to turn the roster over, flipping two very good relievers for enormous packages that gave the Yanks three of their current top six prospects.


I read three of their current top 6 as three of the current top 6. Sorry.
This ranking from law  
Metnut : 1/20/2017 11:50 am : link
will likely be higher than most other analysts right? Consensus on Mets still expected to be in the #11-#15 range? Maybe Gsellman's emergence just makes that much of a difference.
RE: This ranking from law  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13334019 Metnut said:
Quote:
will likely be higher than most other analysts right? Consensus on Mets still expected to be in the #11-#15 range? Maybe Gsellman's emergence just makes that much of a difference.


Yeah he's an outlier here in large part because he's been high on Nimmo, Cecchini, Smith for a while (backed away from that on Nimmo and Cecchini a bit recently). As I noted above Eddy has them 10-15.
Law  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 11:52 am : link
once remarked that Clint Frazier had the best bat speed he'd ever seen in a HS player.
RE: Started from the bottom now we're here, mfers!!  
Jay on the Island : 1/20/2017 11:53 am : link
In comment 13333945 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
.

It's amazing how far they have come in 2 and a half years. This season will be the start of the future with Swanson and Foltynewicz getting more experience along with the likely arrivals of 2B Ozzie Albies, LHP Sean Newcomb, LHP AJ Minter (arguably the best relief prospect in baseball), 3b Rio Ruiz, and several relief prospects like ex-met Akeel Morris. Players like RHP Lucas Sims, OF Dustin Peterson, and LHP Max Fried may be post all-star break or September call-ups as well.
RE: RE: RE: Harper doesnt need to be Trout  
Victor in CT : 1/20/2017 11:55 am : link
In comment 13333993 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13333985 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13333968 Deej said:


Quote:


he needs to be a 4 fWAR player. I wouldnt worry about the Yankees money. There is no cap, and they have lots of it.



He does for the money he wants. And he has a doosh-like quality about him. NY may not be an ideal spot for him. And it's not solely about affording the money. It's about making your roster inflexible with an untradeable contract. (see Arod, Texiera, Ellsbury, Sabbathia)




Really the Yankees are going to be hesitant about signing a douche bag?

All those guys were in their 30s when they got untraceable contracts. This dude is 24 right now and hit 40 HRs as a 22 year old. Wouldn't worry about his contract at all.


All I'm saying is that he isn't a slam dunk. Look at his full body of work. 1 outstanding season, 4 pretty good seasons.

I am not by any means an expert or proponent of advance stats, but for those who put value in it, for the last 5 yrs, Harper has a 21.3 WAR, Chris Davis 18.1. Not saying Harper isn't better and of course younger, but you could get production cheaper, and quite possibly home grown, controllable production.
From the article  
Stan in LA : 1/20/2017 11:55 am : link
Quote:
2. New York Yankees

2016 rank: 13

I’m so glad something is finally going right for Yankee fans, who have been suffering for, like, seven whole years now, but this system is absolutely loaded.

Brian Cashman went bananas once he got the green light to turn the roster over, flipping two very good relievers for enormous packages that gave the Yanks three of their current top six prospects. The other three are all recent first-round picks, and the system is full of the products of the team’s drafts, a side benefit of the end of their trades of prospects for veterans to prop up the aging big-league roster.

The system just keeps on going, with tons of pitching depth, a passel of natural shortstops -- we need a better collective noun for that; a "belanger" of shortstops, perhaps -– who will end up playing all over the diamond, and a lot of outfielders who rake. Even Dermis Garcia, who isn’t among their 20 best prospects, has 80 raw power and finished second in the advanced-rookie Appalachian League in homers as an 18-year-old.

There’s no weakness here. They will trot out teams full of prospects at every level, and several of them will show up in the Bronx this year. I don’t know if Gleyber Torres is the new Jeter or James Kaprelian the new Pettitte, but I’ll take that bet.

Link - ( New Window )
thanks, pj.  
yatqb : 1/20/2017 11:56 am : link
.
and yes, they should and I think wil be wary about signing a douche.  
Victor in CT : 1/20/2017 12:00 pm : link
seems to me they won a lot more when they had more homegrown players (Bernie and the cor 4) and solid citizen role player(Key, Chili Davis, Joe Girardi) types than when they crept back into the old George way of making big splash signings (Arod, Sheffield, Clemens)
Filthy  
Jay on the Island : 1/20/2017 12:00 pm : link
The Braves high A ball club might be more exciting to watch at the beginning of the year than the major league club. The rotation will likely feature Kolby Allard, Mike Soroka, Touki Toussaint, Luiz Gohara, and Max Fried. Fried will likely be there for a month before he is elevated to AA. That rotation features four 1st round draft picks who all have front of the rotation potential.
RE: Ouch for the Phillies  
Jay on the Island : 1/20/2017 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13334010 Metnut said:
Quote:
to see their system so lowly regarded with their MLB team being so bad.

The Phillies have also promoted several prospects which is part of the reason they are so low. As DMM said they may lack quantity of they have several high quality prospects including the #2 overall prospect in baseball according to MLB.com in JP Crawford. They also have the top catching prospect in baseball Jorge Alfaro, along with the 49th overall OF Nick Williams.
MLB.com  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 12:23 pm : link
top 1b

3. Dominic Smith, Mets
Smith, the No. 3 prospect on this list a year ago, moved up to Double-A in 2016 and enjoyed his best full-season campaign, setting career highs in home runs (14), RBIs (91) and OPS (.824). A potential plus hitter with 15-plus homer potential, the 21-year-old Smith is also a gifted defender at first base who earns high praise for his footwork and glove.

They snubbed Gsellman, no Mets made their top 10 RHP or LHP prospects.
Nice to see the Mets system rebound after the recent graduations  
Eric on Li : 1/20/2017 12:32 pm : link
whether or not it's truly the 7th best system, Alderson's regime had already proven they could develop talent and trade well, nice to see some good pub for their drafting as well.
The remarkable thing about the Yankee farm...  
Dunedin81 : 1/20/2017 12:34 pm : link
is that there are guys who don't even rate on Top 50 or Top 30 lists who could easily be Top 10 prospects a year from now, potentially Top 100 prospects. The IFA class of 2014 is at a point where some of them are starting to hit full season and with Dermis, Florial, Wilkerman Garcia and Diego Castillo one of them could easily break out in a major way. But they mix these high-ceiling guys with "low-floor" guys like Kyle Holder, Wade and Dustin Fowler who are likely to be big-league regulars at some point.
RE: Ouch for the Phillies  
dep026 : 1/20/2017 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13334010 Metnut said:
Quote:
to see their system so lowly regarded with their MLB team being so bad.


Randolph, crawford, and williams disappointed. It's ok. Guys like kilomme and sixto Sanchez could be top 50 guys by end of the year.
So long as the Mets  
Giants2012 : 1/20/2017 1:14 pm : link
trade Harvey rather than let him walk they should load and reload well for a while.
Keith Law  
TunaKing : 1/20/2017 2:53 pm : link
also said that Chris Sale was destined to be a middle reliever with a below average breaking ball.
RE: Keith Law  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 2:59 pm : link
In comment 13334232 TunaKing said:
Quote:
also said that Chris Sale was destined to be a middle reliever with a below average breaking ball.


Not totally fair.

Quote:
If you like Chris Sale, you see a 6'6" left-hander with an arm slot close to Randy Johnson's, a plus fastball and change, and a potential front-line starter. If you're a skeptic, you see a sidearming lefthander without an average breaking ball and a long arm action that will be tough to repeat 100-plus times an outing. I'm more in the latter camp than the former, and I think Sale's pro future is reasonably likely to come in the bullpen.

He'll sit 92-93 as a starter and has touched 96 a handful of times this spring, with good sink on the pitch that comes from the low slot, helping him generate groundballs. He turns his low-80s changeup over well, surprising given his arm slot, but it's more of an action change that relies on its downward movement and big-league hitters will lay off it when it's out of the zone. He's thrown a loopy curveball and a harder slider, with a better chance to make the slider work from that low slot, but neither is an average pitch and he primarily works with the fastball and change.

His arm action is ugly, long and complex in the back with a high elbow, and he drifts forward in a crouch more commonly seen on sidearmers and submariners. If I did draft him, I'd see if I could raise his slot just enough to get him better angle on the slider and get him to take advantage of his height. His current delivery, slot, and repertoire make him look a lot like a reliever to me.
RE: Keith Law  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13334232 TunaKing said:
Quote:
also said that Chris Sale was destined to be a middle reliever with a below average breaking ball.


I'm not going to defend Law, I couldn't stand him for a long time because of his douchiness on twitter (and other media), but he's much better than he used to be.

And at least he finally admits he was wrong on Sale. For so long he'd dig in his heels on Sale and people goaded him with it. Fun to read.

He's changed his tune somewhat. from a fan chat.

Quote:
I don't like high-effort pitchers because they tend to either get hurt or end up in the pen because they can't repeat their deliveries. But I am open-minded - guys with bad deliveries sometimes work out as starters. Look at how I missed on Chris Sale - that's still one of the worst starter's deliveries around, and so what?
Looks like Dom Smith  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 3:07 pm : link
is shedding some pounds, he had a reputation for being pudgy IIRC.

Yep  
Shecky : 1/20/2017 3:11 pm : link
Lost almost 25lbs. Not bad for someone that's "lazy".
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:12 pm : link
Colored Marbles: How do you assses Quintana’s value vs Sale’s value in the market? Quintana has an additional year of control. Should Quintana net more in return than Sale?
Klaw: Sale’s the slightly better pitcher, Quintana has the extra year of control, so I think it’s fair to say you expect as much for Q as for Sale. I don’t see a case for saying more or less.


Kay: With Gsellman looking like a legit starter, with a better build to handle innings (presumably) and Wheeler limited in his innings, does it make sense to use Wheeler as a high leverage reliever? His stuff looks like it would play there, less stress on the arm, and makes the bullpen much stronger. Plus I’m very high on evil DeGrom
Klaw: Yep, makes sense to me. I’m all in on Gsellman. Definite starter, right now.

Big Hen: In the Mets write up you mentioned 2 potential stars in their system — I assume Rosario is 1, but is the other Dom Smith ?? surprised to hear potential star upside with him and not very solid regular.
Klaw: It’s been very weird how even Mets fans have tended to believe the worst on Smith, even though he was the 11th pick in his draft, highly rated as an amateur, and has been young for everywhere he’s played. Dude can hit.

Nick from Somerville: Cameron Planck? what’s his upside? Seems like a lot of cash for a 11th rounder
Klaw: They’re expecting a pretty constant output from him, hoping he’ll add some length to their rotation, and that he doesn’t end up a max effort guy.

Garrett: Is Peter Alonso ever a factor for the Mets at the MLB level?
Klaw: I think so, unless he’s blocked by Smith. Alonso can hit.

Joe: You said three first rounders for the Yankees are among their top six prospects. When did you come around so much on Cito Culver?
Klaw: I remember getting yelled at by Yankee fans for disliking the Culver and Bichette picks – neither was on my predraft top 100s in their respective years – but that seems to have stopped now. And they’ve been on an absolute roll in the draft, too.
Link - ( New Window )
Seems pretty fair to me  
TunaKing : 1/20/2017 3:14 pm : link
He rated his slider as a 40 with a projected future rating on 45. That's below average on his MLB grading scale for those scoring at home
I  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:14 pm : link
hate to be "that guy" but he also lost about 20 pounds last off-season (posted pictures of his workouts on instagram) only to pack it back on in-season. Needs to keep it off.
RE: Seems pretty fair to me  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13334280 TunaKing said:
Quote:
He rated his slider as a 40 with a projected future rating on 45. That's below average on his MLB grading scale for those scoring at home


And yet Sale fell to the 13th pick in the draft which suggests Keith law wasn't the only one who didn't expect Sale to be this good. A thin, odd delivery guy from a small school (not as heavily scouted). What did the other 12 teams think? That Sale would be an ace?
Law  
TunaKing : 1/20/2017 3:20 pm : link
ranked him 47th for the 2010 draft. You can look at it both ways
I'm not a huge fan of the Mets system...  
Dunedin81 : 1/20/2017 3:23 pm : link
and I'd be surprised if BA had them that high. It's not a bad system, but I think they're a year or two away from recovering from the variety of graduations they've had and again being a Top 10 system. But you have a jewel in Rosario and if Dom Smith becomes what Law thinks he could you could still get a lot of mileage.
pjcas18  
TunaKing : 1/20/2017 3:25 pm : link
I participated in some of those chats. Guy was such an arrogant prick.
I asked him who had higher ceiling? Daniel Bard or Chris Sale. He liked Bard.
RE: I'm not a huge fan of the Mets system...  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:26 pm : link
In comment 13334298 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
and I'd be surprised if BA had them that high. It's not a bad system, but I think they're a year or two away from recovering from the variety of graduations they've had and again being a Top 10 system. But you have a jewel in Rosario and if Dom Smith becomes what Law thinks he could you could still get a lot of mileage.


Eddy had them 10-15, closer to 15
Like I said I'm not defending Law  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 3:28 pm : link
none of these analysts or experts are always right.

As Mets, Yankees, Phillies, Braves, and Red Sox fans on here, among other teams I'm sure we've all seen prospects rated universally by the experts who flame out.

I mean you don't need to look back to too far as Mets fans to see Fernando Martinez as a top 20 prospect in baseball, Lastings Milledge top 10, etc. They all have different reasons why they fail.

Which is why I send in the OP rankings are sort of meaningless, but I'd rather be highly ranked than not. If nothing else it helps with trades. When you can send the n rated prospect in baseball for player X it adds some credibility.

but like everything else involving projection, it's somewhat of a crapshoot.

What I do finally commend Law for is acknowledging the miss and explaining his rationale.

Which for a while he refused to do and not many people will address their misses.
RE: pjcas18  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13334301 TunaKing said:
Quote:
I participated in some of those chats. Guy was such an arrogant prick.
I asked him who had higher ceiling? Daniel Bard or Chris Sale. He liked Bard.


So condescending, I couldn't stand him. He's not as bad now IMO.
Being that guy  
Shecky : 1/20/2017 3:30 pm : link
Legit question Dan. But at the same time, he had his best season don is one of those prospects that people always love to focus on what he can't do rather than what he can. Probably for the better - it motivates him. And takes all the pressure off.
I actually liked Dom Smith  
pjcas18 : 1/20/2017 3:33 pm : link
with the added weight as long as it didn't impact his play negatively, I envisioned him like a less powerful Mo Vaughn and he was developing the body to match.

I don't like him having the lazy label, but a pudgy first baseman doesn't bother me if he can hit and field. I mean Vaughn, Fielder and I'm sure many other 1B didn't look like track stars.
RE: I actually liked Dom Smith  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:40 pm : link
In comment 13334316 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with the added weight as long as it didn't impact his play negatively, I envisioned him like a less powerful Mo Vaughn and he was developing the body to match.

I don't like him having the lazy label, but a pudgy first baseman doesn't bother me if he can hit and field. I mean Vaughn, Fielder and I'm sure many other 1B didn't look like track stars.


Problem with heavy position players is they generally don't last very long. There is no DH in the NL (obviously) and part of Dom's value is his defense at 1b, his power will most likely be below average for the position so the defense is supposed to make up for it. Mo Vaughn and Fielder were DH's (In Vaughn's case a DH playing 1b).
It  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:41 pm : link
should be noted that Law is Smith's #1 fan and even he has knocked his weight gain/fitness level/potential impact going forward (and again Law has routinely been high on him).
Just  
DanMetroMan : 1/20/2017 3:57 pm : link
as an example

"Law added that he believes Smith is a safe bet to be a .300 hitter with 20-homer upside with sparkling defense at first base. However, Law says his upside may only be reached if Smith "keeps his uniform buttons from bursting," as Law points out Smith could be skipping basic conditioning, resulting in sloppy defense in the Arizona Fall League."
According to MLB.com  
Jay on the Island : 1/21/2017 11:29 am : link
Four of the top five SS prospects come from the NL East. #1 J.P. Crawford, 22 yo Phillies
#2 Dansby Swanson, 22 yo Atlanta
#4 Amed Rosario, 21 yo Mets
#5 Ozzie Albies, 20 yo Atlanta
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