I'm a member of a couple of private organizations that have social club aspects to them. Every Friday, one of them has a Texas Hold 'Em tournament. I have never attended one of these tournaments before but am a fairly seasoned Hold 'Em player and very familiar with tournament play.
Buy-in was $20 with a optional re-buy of $20. So here's the issue...
We're playing, and the table is very loose (making a lot of huge bets with marginal hands). So I'm biding my time, trying to be very patient, where I can trap a player. As the night goes on, and as other players overplay their hands, people start going out. A few people go out and I ask the player next to me how many players does it pay out to? And he tells me 1st and 2nd. We started with about 9 players.
I went out and re-bought, as I felt like I was playing good poker but had a bit of bad luck. At this point I am trying to survive as the table is whittling down, but I was not in a good position and the leaders had enormous chip stacks comparatively. At about 9:30, someone says that another player needs to increase pace of play because there is only a half-hour left. We started a bit after 7:00, with blinds raising every half-hour. I was curious about this remark so I said to the same guy next to me, "what is he talking about?" Guy says the game always ends at 10:00pm, and whoever is first and second in chips are the winners.
This revelation has me super-pissed. I'm a small-stack, playing very patiently trying to pick spots all night long. I survived until there was just 4 players left... and towards the end I doubled my stack about 3 times in a row, to the point I was now a threat with my chip count. But 10:00pm hit, and that supposedly means I just forfeited my $40 because at that moment in time, I was not first or second in chip count.
I made it known that I don't have anywhere to be, and I don't feel that it's fair at all that I automatically forfeit my buy-in when I'm still in the game with chips in front of me, and am more than happy to continue playing down to 2 or to a winner, as was my understanding based on EVERY OTHER FUCKING POKER TOURNAMENT I HAVE EVER PLAYED.
My point was that big stacks can simply slow play to run the clock out, and this would be a natural strategy, and not in the interest of fair play. My point also was that without any disclosure, that if the game is to stop at a certain time, then the pot should be divided among the remaining players proportionately to their chip counts.
I still feel that it is theivery to take people's money as winnings in a Hold 'Em tournament that you did not win, when they still have chips in front of them.
I was fine with ending the game, but that in doing so, the chips in front of me represent some share of the money posted, and certainly represented more than my share of the money I posted.
I was told I could get my money back, which I accepted as a compromise, even though I was certain that my play and chips in front of me was worth more than the $40 posted. The players conceded that I should have been told that this is how they play and how they do things prior to the game... which I agreed with... such a disclosure absolutely would've affected my strategy as well as my decision to even participate in or re-buy back into the tournament.
But the big stack actually said, "you can have your money back, but don't come back." He later apologized. Another player questioned my integrity, and the way I played at the end, insinuating that I was somehow "taking advantage." Taking advantage of what? Taking advantage of being railroaded with some arbitrary cut-off time and forfeiting my buy-in when I'm still very much in the game? At this point, I stood up ready to fight that guy, and said, "what do you have to say about it?" Which a couple of guys jumped in and said that isn't going to happen... and everybody calmed down. So at the end, I received no apology. Nor did I offer any, even though I felt I shouldn't have provoked a fight (despite my integrity being questioned).
One of the guys came over to me after to tell me again they should've told me how the game was, and that they won't ever make that mistake again. I said I felt like I was caught in between being a douchebag about it or rolling over and conceding something that I didn't feel was ethically right.
Question... what is your opinions on my complaint? If you were in that position, would you have rolled over and took it, or said something like I did?
Am I justified in taking my money back? I'm sure the chip leaders felt I cheated them out of some of their winnings. Thoughts?
I also have been involved in the community since the sixties no matter where I've lived. I'm running a chili cookoff for charity this coming Saturday. No one is confusining it for the state chili cooking championship. I have played in many bar and charity holdem tournaments. First question is how are we playing this one.
I was pointing out how your assumptions were wrong.
In the future, don't assume you know how a game will be played even if you consider yourself a "seasoned " player. All ways ask.
As other good players on here as said, the type of tournament you played in is not that uncommom.
The guy who called out your integrity probably figured you should have known the rules before sitting down and if you didn't, you were angling to get your money back (while probably shaking his head at why $40 is causing such a reaction).
Poker players (and really any gamblers) should know what they are up against. If you are playing a cash game and don't understand straddle rules or ones that reward players for being on a hot streak or high hand rules or bad beat rules, it is just sloppiness on the player's part. The same principle applies to tourneys. I know people who have mistakenly entered all in or fold tourneys and when the action gets to them and they try to make a normal raise and are told what the rules are, they sometimes freak out.Bounty tourneys and HORSE or HOSE tourneys really fuck with people too. Some guys just like to gamble without knowing what they are up against. That's who I always like to face.
The timed aspect is really not a big deal. The forfeiture of chips when not knocked out of a tourney because of a timed aspect, when that timed aspect wasn't disclosed, that's what I had a problem with. End the game at a certain time, fine. Split the pot among the remaining players. That, to me, is the ethical thing to do. I didn't angle to get my money back, either. I wanted to keep playing. I was told to take my money back, and I initially said no, let's keep playing or split it... they insisted I take it back, and when they did they said they should've told me the house rule.
I played in a home game for a couple of years with the same 8 guys. The game was dealer's choice, but you had to play either hold 'em, Razz, Seven-Card Stud, Omaha or Omaha Hi-Lo. Occasionally, we'd have a fill-in who would try to play Follow the Queen or wouldn't know what hand qualifies for Razz or Omaha Hi-Lo. Too bad - it's on them.
You keep talking about being a seasoned poker player with all these tournaments under your belt, yet you didn't really know the rules of the table you were at and you keep talking about still having chips in front of you. To me, that reflects less on being a seasoned player and more on being a guy who didn't know what laid in front of him, assumed he did, and get's angry (and tries to alter the rules) when there's a realization his assumptions were incorrect.
Basically, the other players sound like they gave you the buy-in back as a pity move and frankly that's one I'd be more pissed off about. Getting screwed out of $40 in the pot by a guy who didn't know what he's doing is more thread worthy than this.
I played in a home game for a couple of years with the same 8 guys. The game was dealer's choice, but you had to play either hold 'em, Razz, Seven-Card Stud, Omaha or Omaha Hi-Lo. Occasionally, we'd have a fill-in who would try to play Follow the Queen or wouldn't know what hand qualifies for Razz or Omaha Hi-Lo. Too bad - it's on them.
You keep talking about being a seasoned poker player with all these tournaments under your belt, yet you didn't really know the rules of the table you were at and you keep talking about still having chips in front of you. To me, that reflects less on being a seasoned player and more on being a guy who didn't know what laid in front of him, assumed he did, and get's angry (and tries to alter the rules) when there's a realization his assumptions were incorrect.
Basically, the other players sound like they gave you the buy-in back as a pity move and frankly that's one I'd be more pissed off about. Getting screwed out of $40 in the pot by a guy who didn't know what he's doing is more thread worthy than this.
Coming from you, FMiC, I couldn't possibly take offense.
Dude, you have several poker players here telling you to know what the fuck you're getting into before sitting down and you are basically telling all of us to shut the fuck up. What advice did you expect, that you were right?
And saying you are a seasoned poker player is either laughable given your predicament, or like I said, makes you somebody most of us would love to play with.
I also have been involved in the community since the sixties no matter where I've lived. I'm running a chili cookoff for charity this coming Saturday. No one is confusining it for the state chili cooking championship. I have played in many bar and charity holdem tournaments. First question is how are we playing this one.
I was pointing out how your assumptions were wrong.
In the future, don't assume you know how a game will be played even if you consider yourself a "seasoned " player. All ways ask.
As other good players on here as said, the type of tournament you played in is not that uncommom.
Here's a full list of your untrue assumptions and/or pejorative statements:
"They ain't keeping the place open so you can play like your at the final table at Vegas.
Here is what is wrong with your statement. "Very familiar with tournament play"
like the novice you are
and you just thought they were idiots.
Then, to top it off you double rebuy toward the end of the game with a slim to none chance of winning.
Way to take a hit for the organization you are part of so that organization, can make some money. What a team player.
Then, because the game is played like it is around the country, probably the world in these fun organizational tournaments and not the way you do, you throw a hissy fit.
where wining (sic) while nice, isn't the main function of the night out."
A simple "you should've known the rules" would've been fine. Instead you ramble on creating facts out of thin air and make personal insults. None of this was an accurate representation of what went on, or the organization. Zero of that poker money went to the club. I bought drinks, that money goes to the club. Timed games aren't uncommon, not chopping the pot among the players left, is. In no way, as other regular poker players stated, is players still in the tournament left holding the bag with no equity stake in the pot, "the way they do it around the country, or probably around the world." Thanks anyway.
Dude, you have several poker players here telling you to know what the fuck you're getting into before sitting down and you are basically telling all of us to shut the fuck up. What advice did you expect, that you were right?
And saying you are a seasoned poker player is either laughable given your predicament, or like I said, makes you somebody most of us would love to play with.
Yep, and several other regular poker players said I was justified. Tells me there was some fault on both parties.
Yes please.
Quote:
I'm not expecting you to take offense. I'd rather have you playing at my table instead.
Dude, you have several poker players here telling you to know what the fuck you're getting into before sitting down and you are basically telling all of us to shut the fuck up. What advice did you expect, that you were right?
And saying you are a seasoned poker player is either laughable given your predicament, or like I said, makes you somebody most of us would love to play with.
Yep, and several other regular poker players said I was justified. Tells me there was some fault on both parties.
Anyway FMiC, I didn't tell anyone to shut the fuck up... I get it, some people just look for an excuse to be a dick... I get your overall point, I should've asked about the house rule, and I incorrectly assumed that it would be a similar tournament to every one I've personally ever played, which is a lot of tournaments. I asked about the blinds when we started, and how often they go up. I didn't ask about pay-out until later. That's on me, but I think a reasonable person, like the gents there, would let a new player know something like that... and this is something that they all agreed they should've done. Again, I see both sides, I'm not unreasonable.
Yes please.
Let me know when and where. I did adjust, I played tighter when the table was playing too loose. Here's a tip... that's what you are supposed to do. Table playing tight, you play more loose. You can thank me later.
Quote:
Doesn't know the payout or timing of a tournament, doesn't adjust or ask questions while players around him build enormous stacks playing very loose.
Yes please.
Let me know when and where. I did adjust, I played tighter when the table was playing too loose. Here's a tip... that's what you are supposed to do. Table playing tight, you play more loose. You can thank me later.
It's a terrible strategy. The tournament was over at 10pm, you had to gamble.
It helped I got cards. Thanks, though. /end thread.