Problem with the offense is talent

.

yesterday have much better OLs than the Giants and TEs.Fix those spots and the RBs and WRs will look a lot more talented.

All of those teams you mentioned had strong lines going into the playoffs. Look no further than the NFC Championship. The Falcons were the only team in the league to start the same 5 lineman for all 16 games. The Packers, arguably the best pass blocking line during the regular season meanwhile lost both of their starting guards and Rodgers wound up being pressured on 20 of 49 dropbacks.

I'm not a big fan of the offensive gameplan, playcalling and gameflow McAdoo put out there this season but with better blockers up front, our offense looks much better. I'd put the talent we had this year up with any of the previously mentioned teams.

Can't sit here and say that I think the talent merited such poor offensive performance. For whatever reason, they couldn't get out of their own way this season, with talent that wasn't any worse than last year.

They need to improve a few positions without a doubt, but the coaching needs to take a good long look at this past season and make sure that they improve from there as well.

had practically the exact same exact OL blockers for most of 2015 (Schwartz and Jerry split OG) and had the 6th ranked scoring offense in the league, 2016 they had the 28th scoring offense.

Main difference, Rueben Randle > Victor Cruz.

Still couldn't run, but the offense wasn't nearly as bad as 2016.

OL talent. WR talent. TE talent. RB talent. They all need upgrades.

There has been alot of discussion around Sullivan, Mac calling the plays, etc.

but McAdoo was shrewd enough to turn games into defensive contests. The result was a lot more wins. Had they played offense like they did in 2015 they probably would have finished the season a lot closer to 6-10 again.

When the offense did not turn the ball over...The Giants won. I see it as they dialed things back and played much more conservatively.

I'd like to see the Giants really turn more into a running team.

In comment 13336951 Marty866b said:

Quote:

Belichick Brady is so good he can win with anyone. Eli Manning can't.

Ftfy. It's about the right talent and constantly adapting to the talent and situation. That's the coaching part.

its possible only OBJ, Shepard & Perkins make contributions next year. maybe Tye and/or Adams.

the rest, will be elsewhere or even out of football.

throw in that just Pugh & Richburg are likely to start in the same spot and you wonder just how the Giants won 11 games.

not to mention the fact that Eli got to 4k+ yards and 26tds...is absolutely mind boggling.

Then keep doing work in the Draft and Free agency. Tavarres King can play, and he's 6' 1". I was expecting the Giants to have plenty of weapons on offense this year. I thought Eli would complete every pass, even if it was dink and dunk, and there would be plenty of big plays from 8 yard passes, but we all know that didnt happen. O line is the key, but a tall outside receiver, like a Sanu (3rd round pick), or a Martavis Bryant (4th round pick), to go with Beckham and Shepard would go a long way.
At the same time, can't let the defense slide, and I dont blame the play calling.

the big strategic mistake would be to loose current core players on D (JPP, Hank, DRC etc) in order to gain offense free agents (whom would still constitute a 'maybe' as they have not been here, played here, worked into our deal here yet) and looking for replacements on D (which also would be a 'maybe').

You don't borrow from Peter to pay Paul, especially when Peter has been kicking up some holy ass and Paul hasn't showed up for work in months.

If Spagnulo is Peter. a.k.a Caesar, render onto him what is his, (JPP,Hank and the whole gang).

Paul, a.k.a. Sully, still needs to prove himself, but if we do keep him we owe him some draft picks, great guards probably in #1 and #2, and etc, you guys know the list, blockig TE, great FB, varietal WR.

like they viewed the defense last year. They need to be embarrassed. Yes the running game looked a bit better as the season wore on, I at times even defended it. It played as well as it possibly could have and for that I applaud the coaching staff. But it's time to panic with this running game. Perkins is a 5th round player who did some nice little things last year. Great, he's merely earned the right to compete for playing time. No one else at RB has earned anything and that includes Vereen who while solid, can't stay on the field and fumbles. ON his best day he's a role player. Nothing more. Don't forget that. Jennings is completely shot. Goodbye.

If the Giants want to stick with Flowers or at least give him a shot at LT ok fine, stick with him. Even if they want to stick with Hart at RT, fine. But the Giants absolutely have to add a legit, blocking vet presence to this team. Have to. Add a FA OL and FA RB. Ready made guys that can come in here and help solidify the embarrassing running game, one that has sabotaged many NYG seasons lately. Enough.

Draft WR and or TE. The draft is deep at TE and probably good enough at WR to get something. Fix the running game via FA. Just like the defense last year.

is a very, very short list, if any.

My recipe this year is to put all our free agency chips into keeping the D intact. Let go a huge list of offense side players.

And look to the draft for an influx of young, still affordable, parts of the puzzle on O.

We nearly all agree what that list is as well.

Fill in the remainders with fodder and it will be aces.

If you want veterans to jive with Eli, well, guess what, too bad, we fucked up too many OL drafts, we gotta pay the price again.

this time of year.

1. Redskins trap (looking for too many offense stars in free agency)

2. "Skill positions" trap in draft, the never ending desire on the part of some to look at running backs and wrs early in the draft, with the result being yet another year of not good enough OL play, wasted play books.

In comment 13336951 Marty866b said:

Quote:

Brady is so good he can win with anyone. Eli Manning can't.

They don't want to hear this though. They think it is some coincidence that the same QBs are always in the hunt. They think it is disrespectful to say Eli isn't on the same level as those guys.

on Defense - It ain't broke so don't fix it.

on Offense - fix it, but not in one iota at the expense of what you do know works (the D).

Run game woes:
- The Giants Offensive line is atrocious at run blocking. Any hole they might create closes instantly.
- Rashad Jennings, the lead back, for as much as I like his effort, is not quick enough to hit the quickly-evaporating and often nonexistent holes. He was as bad a fit as you could have.
- Perkins, who is showing some signs of ability, is a rookie and it took a while to learn pass-blocking to be able to get in the game.
- Both fullbacks went on IR
- None of our tight ends are strong blockers.

- The running game could not even thrive at all this season against defenses in Cover 2 daring us to run.

Passing game woes:
- The Giants offensive line is atrocious at pass-blocking and give Eli no time to throw. Defenses are getting pressure with minimal rushers leaving many defenders playing the pass.
- The lack of running game consistently keeps the Giants in obvious passing downs of long distances.
- The lack of running game keeps defenses in passing defenses and means that receivers have to beat more defenders in the secondary.
- The lack of running game has taken away any ability to run a play action.

- Our biggest receiver was Victor Cruz at 6'0/204 lbs. There isn't a single receiver on the roster who can use his physicality to box out defenders or is tall enough to dominate jump balls. There also isn't a receiver on the team with a large enough catch radius to bail out errant throws by Eli, especially on the high side.

- The starting tight end on the team is 6'2. Once again, Eli lacks a single big-target safety valve to get first downs, keep drives alive, and help out the team when no one is open.

- The pass-catching RB, Vereen, missed most of the season on IR, taking away yet another safety valve.

- Having short receivers who are shifty can be effective on crossing routes and slants. But one of the WRs is cooked (Cruz), and it's hard to exploit underneath routes when defenses are playing back to defend against it since there is no threat of a running game.

Free Agency:

KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson

CUT pile of O players.

---------------------

Draft by round:

1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers)
2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt)
3. TE (two way big blocking TE)
4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count)
5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5)
6. TE (wr type?)
7. KR/PR

talented enough at the skill positions mean we have to ignore the OL? It doesnt?

Since Martellus Bennett walked, we have not fielded a legitimate TE. Donnell has languished in this system for a few years now. He has not developed. Will Tye is useful, but not a starter. Clearly we do not have a talented enough TE on this roster.

Jennings is a good leader and locker room presence but only a decent back.

It is going on 3 years since Cruz got hurt and he's never going to be the same.

Time to reload.

.

In comment 13337103 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

Free Agency: KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson CUT pile of O players. --------------------- Draft by round: 1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers) 2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt) 3. TE (two way big blocking TE) 4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count) 5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5) 6. TE (wr type?) 7. KR/PR

My hope is that we address o-line in FA. Then, I would move TE up on to a first round pick or second round pick at lowest. For picks 2, 3, 4, and 5, I would focus on highest rated RB, LB, WR, and G.

i thought our defense was better than most on the field this playoff season

no-one seem to get to the QB in past two weeks

Last year and this year was a credible 3rd target.

We were within 25 yards a game of offensive yardage. The difference was no TDs to speak of from anyone other than Shephard and Beckham.

We couldn't run to score last year and we couldn't run to score this year.

is that you maybe trading a known known for two 'maybe's.

In new D linesmen and new O parts.

I say build on what is proven.

Its always the same trap, the sexy players skill positions trap, that force these conclusions.

fallacy in the NFL that one cannot find '3rd option receiver threats' in rounds 3-7.

Year in, year out, these guys prove themselves.

Look, the Pats have at least 3 of them!

In comment 13337129 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

fallacy in the NFL that one cannot find '3rd option receiver threats' in rounds 3-7. Year in, year out, these guys prove themselves. Look, the Pats have at least 3 of them!

Most of their OL come from rounds 3 - 7 (or un-drafted) as well as does their QB, and all their running backs.

15 Hogan, Chris WR ACT 6'1" 210 10/24/1988 4 Monmouth (N.J.)
19 Mitchell, Malcolm WR ACT 5'11" 200 7/20/1992 0 Georgia
18 Slater, Matthew WR ACT 6'0" 205 9/9/1985 9 UCLA
14 Floyd, Michael WR ACT 6'2" 220 11/27/1989 5 Notre Dame
80 Amendola, Danny WR ACT 5'11" 190 11/2/1985 8 Texas Tech
11 Edelman, Julian WR ACT 5'10" 200 5/22/1986 8 Kent State

Free Agency:

KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson

CUT pile of O players.

---------------------

Draft by round:

1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers)
2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt)
3. TE (two way big blocking TE)
4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count)
5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5)
6. TE (wr type?)
7. KR/PR

O-

Pugh/#1RdG/Richburg\#2RdG\Flowers


D-

JPP/Hank-Snacks-\Vernon

82 Lengel, Matt TE ACT 6'7" 266 12/27/1990 1 Eastern Kentucky
88 Bennett, Martellus TE ACT 6'6" 275 3/10/1987 9 Texas A&M
83 Scruggs, Greg TE RES 6'3" 277 8/17/1990 4 Louisville
85 Williams, Michael TE RES 6'6" 304 9/8/1990 3 Alabama
87 Gronkowski, Rob TE RES 6'6" 265 5/14/1989 7 Arizona

any other teams getting the big TEs.

In comment 13336955 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 13336938 EricJ said: Quote: In comment 13336929 pjcas18 said: Quote: is going to his 7th super bowl with two street FA's at RB and a lacrosse player and a college QB playing WR and one OL who was drafted in the first two rounds. teams can win with the talent the Giants have. so our issue is coaching and scheme Yes. Look at the Patriots OL from last year to this year. Only difference is flipping Cannon and Mason, but they were brutal last year except....they lured Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement. This may not be popular and might make me a douche to say but I'm starting to believe for the most part football coaches are just not that smart. and Belichick, he literally outsmarts his opponent almost every game. They make such a big deal every Patriots game saying how Matt Patricia is a rocket scientist and the media talks a lot about the Patriots keeping the scheme/system together and using the same terminology regardless of the coordinators. how else do you explain the Patriots?

Model organization. They look at their best player (Brady), examine what he does best and relentlessly sort through players to match his strengths. They collect tight ends and receivers who are smart route runners in the short zones. With running backs, they collect guys who can fit certain roles. That allows them to play a back whose talents suit what they want to do at the moment and what the other team is doing. It is easier to find players who can do one thing well and find a situation or role for them as opposed to trying to find one guy who does everything well.

It's the mirror image of the defensive philosophy of taking away the other team's one and two best players and making them beat the Pats with their 3,4,5 best offensive players.

If we did the same thing on offense, we would be looking for all wideouts who can get deep. Route running would be secondary. We wouldn't be worrying about whether an o-lineman can run block because the primary task would be to keep the relatively immobile qb upright. We'd have a back who was a strong runner without worrying whether he can catch, another pass catching rb who only occasionally would run the ball, etc. We'd have a tight end who was tall and fast and not worry about his run blocking ability.

Just how poor a job the personnel dept did for an extended period of time there

O-line, wide receiver, tight end and fullback situations ....

What I mean most of (if not the entire draft, [picks & vet talent for picks)]; Big money free agents (which might mean losing JPP to pay for it).

It will be PAINFUL because so totally undermanned on this side of ball.

On the line, we might need two new tackles (Flowers moves to RG); an Alshon Jeffrey type vet WR, a top tier tight end as well as an excellent fullback ...

That's four new top-tier players, if we want to compete against Green Bay, Atlanta and Dallas in the NFC.

I meant picks for vet talent - like Joe Thomas from the Browns

''If we did the same thing on offense, we would be looking for all wideouts who can get deep. Route running would be secondary. We wouldn't be worrying about whether an o-lineman can run block because the primary task would be to keep the relatively immobile qb upright. We'd have a back who was a strong runner without worrying whether he can catch, another pass catching rb who only occasionally would run the ball, etc. We'd have a tight end who was tall and fast and not worry about his run blocking ability.''

they big bastics

turned out to be a major matter. Vereen.

A reliable safety valve or dump-off back can be a quarterback's best friend. If his primary receiver(s) is covered and Eli is hearing footsteps, instead of trying to force the ball in there anyway, or throwing it away, or taking a sack, dumping the ball off to a back who can gain five or seven years is a great outcome.

In 2015 Vereen caught 59. the second most balls on the offense, two ahead of Randle. Eli must have been very comfortable throwing to him, and Vereen averaged 8.4 yards per catch.

I'm sorry management didn't go out and find some vet to replace Vereen.

of the front office.
I just don't see a steady upward progress. I see lurches at greatness like OBJ and gaffs at mediocrity like Flowers, Richburg.

We need a legitimate TE big play threat, another legitimate RB, and a big legitimate WR.

Those three needs are more pressing than anything right now.

And I think all three can be found in the draft.

But like almost every thread on BBI, if you don't shit on our organization enough and/or the OL, the thread isn't doing its job.

In comment 13337239 Manny in CA said:

Quote:

O-line, wide receiver, tight end and fullback situations .... That's four new top-tier players, if we want to compete against Green Bay, Atlanta and Dallas in the NFC.

Yes, we need additional talent on offense, but don't make it sound like its desperation time. Nobody likes how their season ends, but we already know we can compete with these teams.

Good news is we have cap money and a full load of draft picks. Make some smart investments and get better...

That's bullshit. they had better talent than they had in 15 and were historically bad this season. Coaching and play calling are the bigger issues.

In comment 13336932 njm said:

Quote:

Brady, Ryan, Rodgers and Roethlisberger all consistently had more time to throw the ball than Eli did. And while nobody in the Giants backfield ran the ball like Bell did, Bell normally (not always) had holes open up for him. Clearly there is no comparison between the Giant TEs and any who were playing this weekend, but IMHO the rest of the disparity was OL related more than skill positions.

you put Steelers OL, including TE, with The Giants skill players and we are playing on into the playoffs..

In comment 13337321 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:

Quote:

turned out to be a major matter. Vereen. A reliable safety valve or dump-off back can be a quarterback's best friend. If his primary receiver(s) is covered and Eli is hearing footsteps, instead of trying to force the ball in there anyway, or throwing it away, or taking a sack, dumping the ball off to a back who can gain five or seven years is a great outcome. In 2015 Vereen caught 59. the second most balls on the offense, two ahead of Randle. Eli must have been very comfortable throwing to him, and Vereen averaged 8.4 yards per catch. I'm sorry management didn't go out and find some vet to replace Vereen.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jimmy Johnson said one of the biggest differences between college and pro football is how one injury can completely tip the scales one way or the other. College teams have huge rosters filled with largely interchangeable parts.

Vereen was a credible and dangerous 3rd threat last season coming out of the backfield. Losing him was quietly enormous given our lack of other players to threaten the flat and be a safety valve for Eli.

in checkdowns/safety valves..He has terrific hands. Granted he's not Vereen in that role and he's not all that shifty, but he should have been used in that capacity more than he was, imo

it would be really, really dumb to tear down a great defense to attempt to rebuild the O.

You don't take a 'for sure' and trade it for a 'maybe.'

Use the draft for O.

In comment 13337552 Rflairr said:

Quote:

That's bullshit. they had better talent than they had in 15 and were historically bad this season. Coaching and play calling are the bigger issues.

I don't think it's fair to say they were historically bad last season. The offense needs a lot of work but much like putting up good stats in losing fashion means little I won't kill the offense for failing to produce much while winning. It goes both ways for me. The offense obviously needs work tho. I just don't think the O was as bad as the D was in 2015. Not in anyway shape or form.

In comment 13336929 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

is going to his 7th super bowl with two street FA's at RB and a lacrosse player and a college QB playing WR and one OL who was drafted in the first two rounds. teams can win with the talent the Giants have.

yes they can but they have to have the right coaching staff and we obviously don't have them