Problem with the offense is talent

Little debate where the holes are.

.

We have our own method of developing raw athletes into players and one day it will work.

is going to his 7th super bowl with two street FA's at RB and a lacrosse player and a college QB playing WR and one OL who was drafted in the first two rounds.

teams can win with the talent the Giants have.

Shepard's the slot. Got to think they're ready to move on from starting backups at RT and RG, but they've been awfully (stubbornly) loyal in the past. Figure to get a new RB and TE in the mix, for sure.

Brady, Ryan, Rodgers and Roethlisberger all consistently had more time to throw the ball than Eli did. And while nobody in the Giants backfield ran the ball like Bell did, Bell normally (not always) had holes open up for him.

Clearly there is no comparison between the Giant TEs and any who were playing this weekend, but IMHO the rest of the disparity was OL related more than skill positions.

In comment 13336929 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

is going to his 7th super bowl with two street FA's at RB and a lacrosse player and a college QB playing WR and one OL who was drafted in the first two rounds. teams can win with the talent the Giants have.

so our issue is coaching and scheme

OL because I think everyone would agree it needs a boost.

The point is though, we are severely lacking options at the skill positions.

If we had more talented coaches the offense would be improved.

So, another "fan" finally got around to watching other teams play and now they covet all the players that stick in their mind.

Ya know, if more people around here played fantasy football, the intelligence level of the overall football conversation would improve greatly and the immediate posts after playoff games wouldn't be so insufferable.

I don't think you can use NE as the barometer. They're coaching staff is so
much better than anyone else year in and out. Their players make fewer mistakes and get better as the season goes on.

Brady is so good he can win with anyone. Eli Manning can't.

In comment 13336932 njm said:

Quote:

Brady, Ryan, Rodgers and Roethlisberger all consistently had more time to throw the ball than Eli did. And while nobody in the Giants backfield ran the ball like Bell did, Bell normally (not always) had holes open up for him. Clearly there is no comparison between the Giant TEs and any who were playing this weekend, but IMHO the rest of the disparity was OL related more than skill positions.

This!!! Can't say it enough...

In comment 13336938 EricJ said:

Quote:

In comment 13336929 pjcas18 said: Quote: is going to his 7th super bowl with two street FA's at RB and a lacrosse player and a college QB playing WR and one OL who was drafted in the first two rounds. teams can win with the talent the Giants have. so our issue is coaching and scheme

Yes. Look at the Patriots OL from last year to this year. Only difference is flipping Cannon and Mason, but they were brutal last year except....they lured Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement.

This may not be popular and might make me a douche to say but I'm starting to believe for the most part football coaches are just not that smart. and Belichick, he literally outsmarts his opponent almost every game.

They make such a big deal every Patriots game saying how Matt Patricia is a rocket scientist and the media talks a lot about the Patriots keeping the scheme/system together and using the same terminology regardless of the coordinators.

how else do you explain the Patriots?

is only useful if the o-line can BLOCK!!!!!!!!

Give Eli time and he'll destroy the other teams. But he hasn't got time.

Open huge holes for the RBs and they can get the job done. But they can't if they are getting hit in the backfield.

Either you win the line or you lose the game. The Giants lost the OLine battle more often than not. It's that simple.

Maybe our players just need to do their job.

but free agency can become a disaster if the Giants don't attract a starting caliber o-lineman, and lose 2 starting d-linemen.

I just can't imagine playing in 2017 with the same o-linemen in the summer positions, and backups or draft picks starting on the d-line.

.

yesterday have much better OLs than the Giants and TEs.Fix those spots and the RBs and WRs will look a lot more talented.

All of those teams you mentioned had strong lines going into the playoffs. Look no further than the NFC Championship. The Falcons were the only team in the league to start the same 5 lineman for all 16 games. The Packers, arguably the best pass blocking line during the regular season meanwhile lost both of their starting guards and Rodgers wound up being pressured on 20 of 49 dropbacks.

I'm not a big fan of the offensive gameplan, playcalling and gameflow McAdoo put out there this season but with better blockers up front, our offense looks much better. I'd put the talent we had this year up with any of the previously mentioned teams.

Can't sit here and say that I think the talent merited such poor offensive performance. For whatever reason, they couldn't get out of their own way this season, with talent that wasn't any worse than last year.

They need to improve a few positions without a doubt, but the coaching needs to take a good long look at this past season and make sure that they improve from there as well.

had practically the exact same exact OL blockers for most of 2015 (Schwartz and Jerry split OG) and had the 6th ranked scoring offense in the league, 2016 they had the 28th scoring offense.

Main difference, Rueben Randle > Victor Cruz.

Still couldn't run, but the offense wasn't nearly as bad as 2016.

OL talent. WR talent. TE talent. RB talent. They all need upgrades.

There has been alot of discussion around Sullivan, Mac calling the plays, etc.

but McAdoo was shrewd enough to turn games into defensive contests. The result was a lot more wins. Had they played offense like they did in 2015 they probably would have finished the season a lot closer to 6-10 again.

When the offense did not turn the ball over...The Giants won. I see it as they dialed things back and played much more conservatively.

I'd like to see the Giants really turn more into a running team.

In comment 13336951 Marty866b said:

Quote:

Belichick Brady is so good he can win with anyone. Eli Manning can't.

Ftfy. It's about the right talent and constantly adapting to the talent and situation. That's the coaching part.

its possible only OBJ, Shepard & Perkins make contributions next year. maybe Tye and/or Adams.

the rest, will be elsewhere or even out of football.

throw in that just Pugh & Richburg are likely to start in the same spot and you wonder just how the Giants won 11 games.

not to mention the fact that Eli got to 4k+ yards and 26tds...is absolutely mind boggling.

Then keep doing work in the Draft and Free agency. Tavarres King can play, and he's 6' 1". I was expecting the Giants to have plenty of weapons on offense this year. I thought Eli would complete every pass, even if it was dink and dunk, and there would be plenty of big plays from 8 yard passes, but we all know that didnt happen. O line is the key, but a tall outside receiver, like a Sanu (3rd round pick), or a Martavis Bryant (4th round pick), to go with Beckham and Shepard would go a long way.
At the same time, can't let the defense slide, and I dont blame the play calling.

the big strategic mistake would be to loose current core players on D (JPP, Hank, DRC etc) in order to gain offense free agents (whom would still constitute a 'maybe' as they have not been here, played here, worked into our deal here yet) and looking for replacements on D (which also would be a 'maybe').

You don't borrow from Peter to pay Paul, especially when Peter has been kicking up some holy ass and Paul hasn't showed up for work in months.

If Spagnulo is Peter. a.k.a Caesar, render onto him what is his, (JPP,Hank and the whole gang).

Paul, a.k.a. Sully, still needs to prove himself, but if we do keep him we owe him some draft picks, great guards probably in #1 and #2, and etc, you guys know the list, blockig TE, great FB, varietal WR.

like they viewed the defense last year. They need to be embarrassed. Yes the running game looked a bit better as the season wore on, I at times even defended it. It played as well as it possibly could have and for that I applaud the coaching staff. But it's time to panic with this running game. Perkins is a 5th round player who did some nice little things last year. Great, he's merely earned the right to compete for playing time. No one else at RB has earned anything and that includes Vereen who while solid, can't stay on the field and fumbles. ON his best day he's a role player. Nothing more. Don't forget that. Jennings is completely shot. Goodbye.

If the Giants want to stick with Flowers or at least give him a shot at LT ok fine, stick with him. Even if they want to stick with Hart at RT, fine. But the Giants absolutely have to add a legit, blocking vet presence to this team. Have to. Add a FA OL and FA RB. Ready made guys that can come in here and help solidify the embarrassing running game, one that has sabotaged many NYG seasons lately. Enough.

Draft WR and or TE. The draft is deep at TE and probably good enough at WR to get something. Fix the running game via FA. Just like the defense last year.

is a very, very short list, if any.

My recipe this year is to put all our free agency chips into keeping the D intact. Let go a huge list of offense side players.

And look to the draft for an influx of young, still affordable, parts of the puzzle on O.

We nearly all agree what that list is as well.

Fill in the remainders with fodder and it will be aces.

If you want veterans to jive with Eli, well, guess what, too bad, we fucked up too many OL drafts, we gotta pay the price again.

this time of year.

1. Redskins trap (looking for too many offense stars in free agency)

2. "Skill positions" trap in draft, the never ending desire on the part of some to look at running backs and wrs early in the draft, with the result being yet another year of not good enough OL play, wasted play books.

In comment 13336951 Marty866b said:

Quote:

Brady is so good he can win with anyone. Eli Manning can't.

They don't want to hear this though. They think it is some coincidence that the same QBs are always in the hunt. They think it is disrespectful to say Eli isn't on the same level as those guys.

on Defense - It ain't broke so don't fix it.

on Offense - fix it, but not in one iota at the expense of what you do know works (the D).

Run game woes:
- The Giants Offensive line is atrocious at run blocking. Any hole they might create closes instantly.
- Rashad Jennings, the lead back, for as much as I like his effort, is not quick enough to hit the quickly-evaporating and often nonexistent holes. He was as bad a fit as you could have.
- Perkins, who is showing some signs of ability, is a rookie and it took a while to learn pass-blocking to be able to get in the game.
- Both fullbacks went on IR
- None of our tight ends are strong blockers.

- The running game could not even thrive at all this season against defenses in Cover 2 daring us to run.

Passing game woes:
- The Giants offensive line is atrocious at pass-blocking and give Eli no time to throw. Defenses are getting pressure with minimal rushers leaving many defenders playing the pass.
- The lack of running game consistently keeps the Giants in obvious passing downs of long distances.
- The lack of running game keeps defenses in passing defenses and means that receivers have to beat more defenders in the secondary.
- The lack of running game has taken away any ability to run a play action.

- Our biggest receiver was Victor Cruz at 6'0/204 lbs. There isn't a single receiver on the roster who can use his physicality to box out defenders or is tall enough to dominate jump balls. There also isn't a receiver on the team with a large enough catch radius to bail out errant throws by Eli, especially on the high side.

- The starting tight end on the team is 6'2. Once again, Eli lacks a single big-target safety valve to get first downs, keep drives alive, and help out the team when no one is open.

- The pass-catching RB, Vereen, missed most of the season on IR, taking away yet another safety valve.

- Having short receivers who are shifty can be effective on crossing routes and slants. But one of the WRs is cooked (Cruz), and it's hard to exploit underneath routes when defenses are playing back to defend against it since there is no threat of a running game.

Free Agency:

KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson

CUT pile of O players.

---------------------

Draft by round:

1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers)
2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt)
3. TE (two way big blocking TE)
4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count)
5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5)
6. TE (wr type?)
7. KR/PR

talented enough at the skill positions mean we have to ignore the OL? It doesnt?

Since Martellus Bennett walked, we have not fielded a legitimate TE. Donnell has languished in this system for a few years now. He has not developed. Will Tye is useful, but not a starter. Clearly we do not have a talented enough TE on this roster.

Jennings is a good leader and locker room presence but only a decent back.

It is going on 3 years since Cruz got hurt and he's never going to be the same.

Time to reload.

.

In comment 13337103 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

Free Agency: KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson CUT pile of O players. --------------------- Draft by round: 1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers) 2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt) 3. TE (two way big blocking TE) 4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count) 5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5) 6. TE (wr type?) 7. KR/PR

My hope is that we address o-line in FA. Then, I would move TE up on to a first round pick or second round pick at lowest. For picks 2, 3, 4, and 5, I would focus on highest rated RB, LB, WR, and G.

i thought our defense was better than most on the field this playoff season

no-one seem to get to the QB in past two weeks

Last year and this year was a credible 3rd target.

We were within 25 yards a game of offensive yardage. The difference was no TDs to speak of from anyone other than Shephard and Beckham.

We couldn't run to score last year and we couldn't run to score this year.

is that you maybe trading a known known for two 'maybe's.

In new D linesmen and new O parts.

I say build on what is proven.

Its always the same trap, the sexy players skill positions trap, that force these conclusions.

fallacy in the NFL that one cannot find '3rd option receiver threats' in rounds 3-7.

Year in, year out, these guys prove themselves.

Look, the Pats have at least 3 of them!

In comment 13337129 idiotsavant said:

Quote:

fallacy in the NFL that one cannot find '3rd option receiver threats' in rounds 3-7. Year in, year out, these guys prove themselves. Look, the Pats have at least 3 of them!

Most of their OL come from rounds 3 - 7 (or un-drafted) as well as does their QB, and all their running backs.

15 Hogan, Chris WR ACT 6'1" 210 10/24/1988 4 Monmouth (N.J.)
19 Mitchell, Malcolm WR ACT 5'11" 200 7/20/1992 0 Georgia
18 Slater, Matthew WR ACT 6'0" 205 9/9/1985 9 UCLA
14 Floyd, Michael WR ACT 6'2" 220 11/27/1989 5 Notre Dame
80 Amendola, Danny WR ACT 5'11" 190 11/2/1985 8 Texas Tech
11 Edelman, Julian WR ACT 5'10" 200 5/22/1986 8 Kent State

Free Agency:

KEEP JPP AND Hank, DRC, Robinson

CUT pile of O players.

---------------------

Draft by round:

1. G (or T that plays great G, I favor shorter OLers)
2. G (the bruiser RG, at this spot also a proven performer with lots of downs under his belt)
3. TE (two way big blocking TE)
4. WR (type to differentiate from our group, stats do count)
5. FB (should be able to get a good fullback in 5)
6. TE (wr type?)
7. KR/PR

O-

Pugh/#1RdG/Richburg\#2RdG\Flowers


D-

JPP/Hank-Snacks-\Vernon

82 Lengel, Matt TE ACT 6'7" 266 12/27/1990 1 Eastern Kentucky
88 Bennett, Martellus TE ACT 6'6" 275 3/10/1987 9 Texas A&M
83 Scruggs, Greg TE RES 6'3" 277 8/17/1990 4 Louisville
85 Williams, Michael TE RES 6'6" 304 9/8/1990 3 Alabama
87 Gronkowski, Rob TE RES 6'6" 265 5/14/1989 7 Arizona

any other teams getting the big TEs.