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NFT: Knicks talk

Earl the goat : 1/23/2017 5:42 pm
Per CBS sports
Knicks and Bulls interested in Rubio

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that is not true  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 12:36 pm : link
what he means is you can not designate two guys to sign to that type of max deal..

so if they wanted to re sign both guys they would sign one with early bird rights and the other with rookie max...
If you believe stephen a ( which i dont)  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 1:39 pm : link
he claims boston is wprking to try and put a package together for melo and they want to get it done
RE: If you believe stephen a ( which i dont)  
Metnut : 1/25/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13339334 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
he claims boston is wprking to try and put a package together for melo and they want to get it done


Not sure how/if the salary would work but even this year's Brooklyn pick alone would be a great return for 'Melo given his current value IMO.
RE: RE: sixers need a point guard  
Steve in South Jersey : 1/25/2017 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13339175 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 13339172 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


i doubt they would do it but would you do jennings and a pick for okafor?



Simmons will be the point guard in a few weeks.


Simmons will be point guard. They need a shooting guard who can defense quick point guards.
RE: RE: If you believe stephen a ( which i dont)  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13339338 Metnut said:
Quote:
In comment 13339334 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


he claims boston is wprking to try and put a package together for melo and they want to get it done



Not sure how/if the salary would work but even this year's Brooklyn pick alone would be a great return for 'Melo given his current value IMO.


crowder amir jerebko works money wise..

add in the pick and i will drive melo to airport
Gimme Zizic  
DanMetroMan : 1/25/2017 2:19 pm : link
He's killing it in the Adriatic League. 20 and 9, 1 block, 1 steal
Is a "big 3"  
Enzo : 1/25/2017 2:24 pm : link
of Melo, Horford, and Isiah enough to take down the Cavs and keep LeBron out of the finals for the first time since 2010?Probably not, but it would be a fun series.
RE: Is a  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13339395 Enzo said:
Quote:
of Melo, Horford, and Isiah enough to take down the Cavs and keep LeBron out of the finals for the first time since 2010?Probably not, but it would be a fun series.


Short of getting Harden, Westbrook, Davis, cousins or Towns or moving the Spurs to Pittsburgh I don't think there's a player any EC team can get to put them over Cleveland.
RE: Is a  
DanMetroMan : 1/25/2017 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13339395 Enzo said:
Quote:
of Melo, Horford, and Isiah enough to take down the Cavs and keep LeBron out of the finals for the first time since 2010?Probably not, but it would be a fun series.


Depending how they meshed I think they would have a legit chance in a 7 game series. Then help the Cavs and send them Rose for Liggins, Osman and 2020 pick. Essentially do what the Yankees did and sell off vets to teams desperate to win this season.
RE: RE: Is a  
dep026 : 1/25/2017 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13339402 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13339395 Enzo said:


Quote:


of Melo, Horford, and Isiah enough to take down the Cavs and keep LeBron out of the finals for the first time since 2010?Probably not, but it would be a fun series.



Depending how they meshed I think they would have a legit chance in a 7 game series. Then help the Cavs and send them Rose for Liggins, Osman and 2020 pick. Essentially do what the Yankees did and sell off vets to teams desperate to win this season.


How can cleveland take on Rose's salary?
I'd take much less than the Nets pick  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 2:31 pm : link
If Boston is going to give us Crowder+. Let that be their own pick, Brown or any other recent first rounder that won't crack their rotation anytime soon.
RE: RE: Is a  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13339402 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 13339395 Enzo said:


Quote:


of Melo, Horford, and Isiah enough to take down the Cavs and keep LeBron out of the finals for the first time since 2010?Probably not, but it would be a fun series.



Depending how they meshed I think they would have a legit chance in a 7 game series. Then help the Cavs and send them Rose for Liggins, Osman and 2020 pick. Essentially do what the Yankees did and sell off vets to teams desperate to win this season.


How would the Cavs get rose unless they part with shump, jr or TT?
Boston will come up with a great package  
Keith : 1/25/2017 2:37 pm : link
and then Melo will say no. That's just the way things are with the Knicks.

Boston is ideal. They still aren't winning anything and the return could be a nice combination of players and picks.

Unfortunately Cleveland doesn't have the pieces to take on rose's contract, but he would be a great fit for what they need.

We have other pieces that teams would want. I would love to see noah to minny for Rubio and Dieng. Then trade Jennings for anything that we can get.
Trades!  
Deej : 1/25/2017 2:43 pm : link
Crowder and the BK pick is an overpay by Boston. Crowder's contract is amazing. If Melo goes to Boston, I'd expect the return to not really cost current roster talent beyond what is absolutely necessary to match salaries. Johnson and Zeller do it, or Johnson, Jerebko and bottom of the roster guys like Rozier and Jackson do it. Knicks return would largely be in draft picks and overseas rights guys. Also, I could see KOQ being added in to address rebounding.

Query: If Boston said Melo and Willy for Brooklyn's #1 (this year or next) and maybe a little bit more from Boston, do you say yes? It's tempting -- could be a #1 overall.
RE: Trades!  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13339432 Deej said:
Quote:
Crowder and the BK pick is an overpay by Boston. Crowder's contract is amazing. If Melo goes to Boston, I'd expect the return to not really cost current roster talent beyond what is absolutely necessary to match salaries. Johnson and Zeller do it, or Johnson, Jerebko and bottom of the roster guys like Rozier and Jackson do it. Knicks return would largely be in draft picks and overseas rights guys. Also, I could see KOQ being added in to address rebounding.

Query: If Boston said Melo and Willy for Brooklyn's #1 (this year or next) and maybe a little bit more from Boston, do you say yes? It's tempting -- could be a #1 overall.


add crowder done deal no crowder no..

Willy could be your starting center for the next 10 years
RE: Boston will come up with a great package  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13339412 Keith said:
Quote:
and then Melo will say no. That's just the way things are with the Knicks.

Boston is ideal. They still aren't winning anything and the return could be a nice combination of players and picks.

Unfortunately Cleveland doesn't have the pieces to take on rose's contract, but he would be a great fit for what they need.

We have other pieces that teams would want. I would love to see noah to minny for Rubio and Dieng. Then trade Jennings for anything that we can get.


you would hope if they truly are talking that phil already asked melo if boston is ok
RE: Boston will come up with a great package  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13339412 Keith said:
Quote:
and then Melo will say no. That's just the way things are with the Knicks.

Boston is ideal. They still aren't winning anything and the return could be a nice combination of players and picks.

Unfortunately Cleveland doesn't have the pieces to take on rose's contract, but he would be a great fit for what they need.

We have other pieces that teams would want. I would love to see noah to minny for Rubio and Dieng. Then trade Jennings for anything that we can get.


MIN would likely want some veteran PG in return so Dunn isn't relied on too much. It would probably lead to something like Jennings, Noah and Lee for Rubio, Dieng and Shabazz
Boston has a significant amount of picks due to them.  
Keith : 1/25/2017 2:52 pm : link
Even if they won't part with this years, they have the following:

Brooklyn's 2018 first rounder
Clippers 2019 first rounder
Memphis 2019 first rounder

I know everyone wants this year nets pick, but I think we'd be good with:

Jerebko, Amir Johnson, Zeller, James Young, nets 2019 first, clippers 2019 first for Melo and O'quinn
RE: Trades!  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13339432 Deej said:
Quote:
Crowder and the BK pick is an overpay by Boston. Crowder's contract is amazing. If Melo goes to Boston, I'd expect the return to not really cost current roster talent beyond what is absolutely necessary to match salaries. Johnson and Zeller do it, or Johnson, Jerebko and bottom of the roster guys like Rozier and Jackson do it. Knicks return would largely be in draft picks and overseas rights guys. Also, I could see KOQ being added in to address rebounding.

Query: If Boston said Melo and Willy for Brooklyn's #1 (this year or next) and maybe a little bit more from Boston, do you say yes? It's tempting -- could be a #1 overall.


Even if it's not the #1 the difference between the #1 and #3 pick seems negligible (at least now, from whatever I can tell). Assuming we are getting Crowder and if not I'd want some combo of their recent 1st round picks or future Celtics-owned picks.
Two other destinations:  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:02 pm : link
Yes I know Memphis is a city that would be "WTF" for Melo but if he's really open to waiving his NTC it would be a great fit.

Maybe something like Melo for Parsons, Baldwin, Martin and a future 1st? Not super enticing but you get some young guys.

Rockets? Yeah, I know, I know. He won't fit the Dantoni system but is Ryan Anderson really fitting it all that well?

And as much as the rockets have been a huge surprise and I think Morey should win exec of the year, Harden MVP and Dantoni COY, they're still a far cry away from really being a contender. They're much closer to Utah, LAC (with CP3), and Memphis than they are to Cleveland, GS or SA. They have plenty of assets I love. Id take Dekker and Anderson if that's what it came to. Maybe you can pry Harrell and a pick off them too and toss them KOQ, Kuz and Holiday if need be.
Boston would be ideal  
Keith : 1/25/2017 3:04 pm : link
because they have like 6 first rounders in the next 3 years. I'd rather not take on any salary and only add picks which only Boston could do. That being said, I really don't see Melo accepting a trade there without a full court press by the team/players.
If Melo would approve the deal  
rich in DC : 1/25/2017 3:05 pm : link
There is an easy 3 way deal to be made.

Melo and Brandon Jennings to Cleveland, Love to Boston, A. Johnson, picks and various cap filler from Boston and Cleveland to NY.

Boston does it because they would have a starting 5 to at least give a go to anyone in the East. Cleveland may do it because LeBron wants to do it- and gets Jennings to reduce the load on Irving and LeBron handling the ball. The Knicks would likely do it to start over, so long as they get at least on- likely 2 of those probable top 5 picks in the future from Boston.

Will it happen? I doubt it because Cleveland might not want to help a rival. But, if LeBron leans on ownership enough, it could happen.
Even if you're the biggest pessimist on Melo  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:07 pm : link
Outside Andersons 40% 3 point shooting he's liability in every other respect. He's probably the worst rebounding and defensive 4 in the league. He's getting 30 minutes a game and doesn't even average 1 assist. Averages half a steal and a fifth of a block. Clear spot for improvement on the rockets roster and we all know Morey always has his ears open when it comes to getting big names.
I still think they need to keep Crowder  
Deej : 1/25/2017 3:08 pm : link
Melo for Crowder+ is not a power move to compete with the Cavs. It is an upgrade (and Im sure Melo haters will say it is a downgrade). Melo for Amir Johnson+ is such a power move.

I think the move is Melo and rebounding for futures. Put in Willy, get back Zizic. Similar profile -- 7' 250 euro center to rolls/cuts to the basket very well with great timing/touch. DX says great motor and physicality. Maybe a better defensive prospect, but far less polished/ready on offense.

Just trying to be a little more realistic than taking their best forward and an amazing Nets pick for a declining Melo who has limited landing spots due to $$ and NTC. That Brooklyn pick is 95+% to be a top 4 pick right now, even factoring in the lottery (per BBRef). Guarantees you one of Fultz, Ball, Smith, Fox, or Monk. Plus it probably lets the Knicks slip into the 8-10 range of the draft where we might land a Tatum or a sliding Jackson.
Should say  
Deej : 1/25/2017 3:10 pm : link
put in Willy if you must to get the BK pick. Or KOQ and let them keep Zizic.
Willy's value is interesting  
Deej : 1/25/2017 3:17 pm : link
around the draft I heard that he would have been ranked around #20 if he was in the 2016 draft. I have to think his value is improved from that, given his solid start (by winshares, he'd be the #3 player so far in the 2016 draft, after Rogdon and Siakam, who are both getting more run).

Knowing what you now know, where does Willy go in the 2016 draft? He's clearly into the lottery, and maybe mid-lottery.
Bear with me here  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:20 pm : link
Knicks get: Anderson, KJ McDaniels, Brewer, Dekker and harrel (maybe a future 1st rounder and 86 Harrel if they don't want to part with too many promising young guys )

Rockets get: Melo, KOQ, Lee, Holiday and Kuz

Knicks do it because they're are diving straight for a rebuild. I think Dekker has legit potential to be an 18-20 ppg scorer in the league (Jon where are you, forgive me for frank bashing?). Harrel looks like a bigger and stronger Kenny Faried. Just a monster around the rim.

Rockets do it because aside from getting rid of some young players, they convert a lot of dead weight into useful players. KOQ more or less will match the production of Harrel in the short term. Holiday/Kuz will essentially do the same for Dekker. They also get Lee who would be a great shooter off the bench. Overall, they replace Anderson with Melo and improve their bench in the process.
I dont think that's enough value for Melo+  
Deej : 1/25/2017 3:29 pm : link
I guess if the Knicks love Harrell and Dekker I'd live with it, sure.

Also, that's a pure 4 and a big 3 coming back. Pushes up against our depth, which is at the 4/5. I'd love to turn Melo into a guard prospect, then add another 1-2-3 in the draft with our pick.
As for Willys value  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:33 pm : link
Would I sound biased to say he'd be a top 10 pick? He'd certainly go ahead of Poetl.

I was down on NO for taking Hield but if he's going to be a 12-15 ppg starter who shoots 40% from 3 and plays solid defense he might've been one of the better value picks in the draft (maybe a peak Courtney Lee from his rockets days?). Maybe a tie between Willy and Hield.

I don't think anyone was expecting Bender to be some future superstar. By even a lot of scout's accounts he was more of a guy who would be a plus starter given the way the NBA was transitioning (a 12 and 8 guy who gives you spacing at the 4 or 5). Id take Willy over him now.

Not knocking Murray, but I thought before the draft the nuggets were drafted a 6th man. Given how bad this draft looked, I think that was a positive and not a bad pick. I was down on his long term future of being a starter on a good team. But given his atrocious defense, horrible shot selection, and inability to play PG, I would take Willy over Murray.

I've stated my case for Ingram a few days ago, I'd still take him over Willy but it would be close.

I'd also still take brown. If he can get his jump shot down I think he's a bigger, more athletic Jae Crowder.

Dunn has struggled but his two way potential at PG will leave him as a pretty good starter down the line, id give the edge to Dunn.

Chriss is interesting. That would be a tough call. Still don't know what Chriss is going to be. His athleticism/shooting makes him one of the highest upside guys behind Simmons, Ingram and brown. But his floor is much lower than Willys.

Dont think I have to argue much for Willy over maker/sabonis.

Brogdon is another close call. No real flaws, but he's not going to be some superstar. He's a perfect PG if you have 2-3 studs at the other spots. So I'd say Willy given his age advantage. But I wouldn't argue the other way.

Maybe not too 5 but I think Willy would be in the 6-9 range.
Mike  
Steve in Greenwich : 1/25/2017 3:35 pm : link
D'antoni is not running to get Melo on his roster again; that worked out real well for him last time.
I wouldn't discount Harrel as a 5  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:36 pm : link
simply because of his height. He had a 7'5" wingspan, insane strength and athleticism. I'd take him over most current pure centers in the league to play the 5 spot next to KP.
RE: Mike  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13339544 Steve in Greenwich said:
Quote:
D'antoni is not running to get Melo on his roster again; that worked out real well for him last time.


You might be right but it would be different this time.

He has Harden now. I don't think Melo would interfere with the probable MVP. He's not going to play ISO ball because Harden gets the ball on every transition break

Plus if you're going to say Melo doesn't fit the system then i don't know how on God's green earth you are going to convince me that Ryan Anderson does.
IF you combine my hypothetical  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 3:46 pm : link
Rockets trade with my dream Rose trade and Keith's Wolves trade you'd have a team of:

Rubio/Baker
Muhammad/Hezonja
Dekker
KP/Harrel
Willy/Dieng/Plumlee

And then picks from the Rockets and then sell of Vucevic for whatever picks he's worth on the open market.
I wasn't  
Steve in Greenwich : 1/25/2017 3:48 pm : link
alluding to a poor system fit, but the fact that Anthony lead to D'antoni tendering his resignation here. That type of stuff doesn't just get forgotten (see D'antoni's Vertical article a few months ago confirming the Anthony / Lin rift was very real and tore the locker room apart). I see no chance that D'antoni would want to bring Melo into the fold of his first taste of success in 10 years.
I like Harrell  
Greg from LI : 1/25/2017 3:52 pm : link
His ludicrous wingspan compensates for his lack of height, and he's got a real mean streak.
not surprising:  
Enzo : 1/25/2017 3:53 pm : link
Quote:
Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 5m5 minutes ago
More
Story posting now with @chrisbhaynes: ESPN sources say Knicks HAVE tried to engage Cleveland in Melo-for-Love trade talks but were rebuffed

I don't know anything about this writer, but Stein is typically reliable. Putting aside the Cavs not wanting Melo (at least not for Love), the real question is whether or not Phil/Mills had permission from Melo to seek a deal.
Keep engaging.  
bceagle05 : 1/25/2017 4:00 pm : link
.
Trade Melo to D'Antoni's Rockets?  
aimrocky : 1/25/2017 4:04 pm : link
save your brain cells for something that isn't completely fiction.
RE: not surprising:  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13339576 Enzo said:
Quote:


Quote:


Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 5m5 minutes ago
More
Story posting now with @chrisbhaynes: ESPN sources say Knicks HAVE tried to engage Cleveland in Melo-for-Love trade talks but were rebuffed


I don't know anything about this writer, but Stein is typically reliable. Putting aside the Cavs not wanting Melo (at least not for Love), the real question is whether or not Phil/Mills had permission from Melo to seek a deal.


if it is true the knicks are engaging with teams that means they have permission
Permission  
Deej : 1/25/2017 4:05 pm : link
I dont know about the NBA, but I've read repeatedly in hockey that you work out the deal first, then you approach the player. Players/agents dont like to give formal preclearence because it tends to undermine the NTC right -- you dont want your GM pestering you for the names of 20 teams you'd take a trade to.
RE: I still think they need to keep Crowder  
EricNY33 : 1/25/2017 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13339476 Deej said:
Quote:
Melo for Crowder+ is not a power move to compete with the Cavs. It is an upgrade (and Im sure Melo haters will say it is a downgrade). Melo for Amir Johnson+ is such a power move.

I think the move is Melo and rebounding for futures. Put in Willy, get back Zizic. Similar profile -- 7' 250 euro center to rolls/cuts to the basket very well with great timing/touch. DX says great motor and physicality. Maybe a better defensive prospect, but far less polished/ready on offense.

Just trying to be a little more realistic than taking their best forward and an amazing Nets pick for a declining Melo who has limited landing spots due to $$ and NTC. That Brooklyn pick is 95+% to be a top 4 pick right now, even factoring in the lottery (per BBRef). Guarantees you one of Fultz, Ball, Smith, Fox, or Monk. Plus it probably lets the Knicks slip into the 8-10 range of the draft where we might land a Tatum or a sliding Jackson.


A move like this means the Celtics realistically think they can beat the Cavs. You're 100% correct about keeping Crowder. I actually really like the Amir Johnson angle. I'd hate to give up Willy because I think he might become a very good center one day, but if it means getting back the Nets pick you HAVE to do it.

The bigger problem is I have a hard time believing the Knicks will trade with their long time division rival.
RE: Permission  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 4:08 pm : link
In comment 13339598 Deej said:
Quote:
I dont know about the NBA, but I've read repeatedly in hockey that you work out the deal first, then you approach the player. Players/agents dont like to give formal preclearence because it tends to undermine the NTC right -- you dont want your GM pestering you for the names of 20 teams you'd take a trade to.


you would think he gave the knicks at least an idea of who he would go to
I'm sure Charley Rosen had it right.  
bceagle05 : 1/25/2017 4:08 pm : link
Cavs, Clippers and maybe Lakers are on the table at all times.
Now that the cat's out of the bag  
bceagle05 : 1/25/2017 4:10 pm : link
I hope they just deal him by the deadline? Does anyone - including Melo - want to put up with this BS through the summer?
Harrell has no offensive game  
xman : 1/25/2017 4:12 pm : link
other then the put back or jam. Can he even shoot fouls?
if you want love  
nygiants16 : 1/25/2017 4:12 pm : link
hope the cavs keep slumping and lebron grows more and more mad
RE: Now that the cat's out of the bag  
EricNY33 : 1/25/2017 4:12 pm : link
In comment 13339603 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
I hope they just deal him by the deadline? Does anyone - including Melo - want to put up with this BS through the summer?


The only thing that stops this kind of talk is if the Knicks go on a nice win streak. If they start winning the trade talk will die down. For the health of everyone involved and us fans that's what I hope happens.
RE: RE: Permission  
Deej : 1/25/2017 4:13 pm : link
In comment 13339600 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13339598 Deej said:


Quote:


I dont know about the NBA, but I've read repeatedly in hockey that you work out the deal first, then you approach the player. Players/agents dont like to give formal preclearence because it tends to undermine the NTC right -- you dont want your GM pestering you for the names of 20 teams you'd take a trade to.



you would think he gave the knicks at least an idea of who he would go to


I think there is a dance that gives you some insight. Melo says a bunch of things in the Phil meeting (e.g. "you know I always wanted to play with one of my boys, LebRon, Dwayne or CP"). Phil reads the tea leaves, but nothing is guaranteed. Indeed, I think that's likely the real situation anyway -- if CLE or LAC reach a deal with Phil, Melo will still need to think about it.
RE: I wasn't  
giantsfan44ab : 1/25/2017 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13339568 Steve in Greenwich said:
Quote:
alluding to a poor system fit, but the fact that Anthony lead to D'antoni tendering his resignation here. That type of stuff doesn't just get forgotten (see D'antoni's Vertical article a few months ago confirming the Anthony / Lin rift was very real and tore the locker room apart). I see no chance that D'antoni would want to bring Melo into the fold of his first taste of success in 10 years.


Unfortunately for D'antoni he's not the GM. If Morey had the opportunity to get Melo for 2-3 non-lottery picks he's going to go for the value play time and time again.

I love what the rockets are doing but you can't tell me they deserve to be in the Spurs, Warriors and Cavs convo. I'd have a hard time arguing that they're necessarily above the Clips, Jazz, Raptors and Grizzlies tier.

The next question is what are they going to do to get better? They have no assets to pry the Demarcus Cousins or Jimmy Butlers of the league. The one big name that they can get fo 70 cents on the dollar is Melo. If they aren't going to make any moves then what is the end goal? Run this team with Harden back every year and hope the improvements of Harrel, Dekker and Capella more than offset the eventual (and possibly near) decline of Harden, Gordon, Airza, Beverley and Anderson?

I'd have a hard time think dantoni has any say over Morey in these matters. I'm not sure if dantoni was brought in before or after FA, but Anderson was certainly not discussed with Dantoni that much if he was.
RE: RE: Now that the cat's out of the bag  
Deej : 1/25/2017 4:15 pm : link
In comment 13339609 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
In comment 13339603 bceagle05 said:


Quote:


I hope they just deal him by the deadline? Does anyone - including Melo - want to put up with this BS through the summer?



The only thing that stops this kind of talk is if the Knicks go on a nice win streak. If they start winning the trade talk will die down. For the health of everyone involved and us fans that's what I hope happens.


Eh. I want them to lose and improve their lottery position. Though if Im watching, I want them to win. I just cannot come around to watching a Knicks game and rooting against them. My brain doesnt allow it.
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