JPP looking for "At Least" Vernon money per Ralph

He will be injured more than not. Looking for a golden parachute contract IMO. keep Hankins and replace the bad pick Bromley right away.

In comment 13338392 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

This is exactly why Belichick lets big ticket guys walk, or trades them first (Brady excepted. But even Brady signs team friendly deals).

what is the relevance of "why Belichick lets big ticket guys walk" ?

There is no other coach that can coach or operate a team the way Belichick does -- even his own coaches fail at it when they take their shot at head coach -- I have issues with folks sying anyone should be doing things because that's the way Belichick does it --

the Giants need to do things based on their conviction and their team theories - they need to be themselves -- and by the way -- the Giants beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl using non-Belichickian techniques - there is more than one way to skin a cat -- to thyne own self be true

In comment 13338373 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338352 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well? That was to BW

Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation.

These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic.

I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches.

Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready.

Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers.

Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk.

yes this is why belichick does this and does that. We get it. But it's also bullshit. The Pats don't let everyone walk as FA. They just signed McCourty to a long term monster deal.

Bringing up what the Pats do every time doesn't always apply to what the Giants should do.

In comment 13338416 Brandon Walsh said:

Quote:

In comment 13338373 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13338352 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well? That was to BW Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation. These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic. I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches. Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready. Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers. Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk.

No way of really knowing what they think of and how they value Hankins. When you mentioned about Hankins' possible low market, it brought to mind Ahmad Bradshaw. There was a lot of concern about what he would corner on the market. Many here, myself included, felt he would not be affordable for us given how tight we were against the cap. Lo and behold there proved to be little if any market for him and I think we signed him for something like 20 mil for 4(?) years..I was really stunned that we were able to sign him..

So, who ever really knows the market for most of these players?

In comment 13338424 djm said:

Quote:

yes this is why belichick does this and does that. We get it. But it's also bullshit. The Pats don't let everyone walk as FA. They just signed McCourty to a long term monster deal. Bringing up what the Pats do every time doesn't always apply to what the Giants should do.

I would agree with this. They didn't let a still healthy and viable Seymour walk until he was what, 32? Same with Wilfork, they didn't re-sign him until he was even okder than Seymour? I would agree they seem to know WHEN to let vets go, which is something we haven't been all that good at, but unless a player was deemed to be trouble, they had no hesitancy in re-signing them unless there was a competent replacement

In comment 13338428 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338416 Brandon Walsh said: Quote: In comment 13338373 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13338352 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well? That was to BW Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation. These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic. I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches. Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready. Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers. Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk. No way of really knowing what they think of and how they value Hankins. When you mentioned about Hankins' possible low market, it brought to mind Ahmad Bradshaw. There was a lot of concern about what he would corner on the market. Many here, myself included, felt he would not be affordable for us given how tight we were against the cap. Lo and behold there proved to be little if any market for him and I think we signed him for something like 20 mil for 4(?) years..I was really stunned that we were able to sign him.. So, who ever really knows the market for most of these players?

I think they probably value Hankins, but we've also seen how they value that certain position. If Hankins was more of a pure pass rusher 3 technique, I wonder if their philosophy would slightly be altered this time around but with his main value as a run stopper, and with NYG already committing top dollar to the best run stopper in the league it looks like a redundant use of resources- of course, if he gets what he's probably looking for.

The Giants don't see pass rushers as redundant.

Good point on Bradshaw, but as we've seen over the years, the NFL does not pay free agent running backs in the middle of their careers. I fear a team like the Browns (Hankins went to school at OSU and they were so bad against the run) could pony up for him.

Olivier Vervon's cap numbers from overthecap

2016: $13m
2017: $16m
2018: $17m
2019: $19.5m
2020: $19.5

I guess the real question is, can we really afford $13m for JPP next year.

The salary cap will increase over the next few years, so it might be an option. It could limit our ability to address other moves.

I appreciate the posts, and would like to add a smidge if possible as many of you posted great comments.

You should beat the bad teams easy if your good team. But we struggled against the Bears and Browns. If not for JPP playing well against these so called bad teams, we might not have made the playoffs.

It would be great if he played better vs the so called better teams too, but the better teams are able to game plan for him better than lesser teams.

Still I agree if he wants big dollars you would want a player that is a more of a lock to do more. And without an OSI or a Tuck, he has been around the ball without the impact a fan would like to see. His efforts I am sure helped other be able to make plays too.

The question I am not able to answer is it enough?
We have glaring needs does minus a JPP help us fill more gaps or holes to make up for his absence to move to the next level.

With the lack of play makers on offense, and not being able to deal with two deep safeties it amazing we lasted as long as we did.

Still think we missed a shot at the Superbowl by not closing out GB in the first half as we had Dallas number and the Falcon game could have been one for the ages.

In any event tough choices are ahead, going to be interesting. Can easily see the Giants tag JPP. His off the field antics have cost him PR wise in the big apple media with a big contact his only real chance at a payday.

Sure everyone likes a comeback, but can easily see TC make a play for him. Do not think the Giants are going to outside the box for him dollar wise with so many holes. Especially how he played a game with the front office in the past reaching out to him like only a handful of teams do.

Forgiven, but not forgotten. JPP already has his ring, now wants his payday.

when we only keep scoring 13 points per game on Offense. Something has got to give here in allocating dollars.

Tough to let talented guys like JPP walk, but I think I can get over letting a guy that has had a bad back, a reconstructed hand and now a hernia/groin issue go find his big payday elsewhere.

Hopefully Giants don't waste it on a 35-year old Offensive Tackle...but that's where I am at.

looking for the biggest payday he can get, JPP is gone. Reese won't and can't outbid the league for him.

when they say we "have to" keep him.

Meanwhile the Pats trade their top defensive player and chandler jones and keep rolling.

You cannot keep 'em all. The rules are stacked against it, and trying to do so gets you in a cap nightmare. It's not like this team doesn't have needs.

In comment 13338218 Brandon Walsh said:

Quote:

The Giants are not letting him walk. Its goes against any type of roster building they've done over the past 20 years. Young, homegrown, defensive end. Not happening.

Going into a season with potentially two defensive ends taking up $30+ million in cap cost goes against any type of roster building they've done too.

In 2016, the Giants allocated $70m of their cap to 31 players on defense

he does not help matters when he starts off with militant talk about how much money he should be offered. Other teams might have treated him a lot worse than the Giants when he blew up his hand. According to reports from management, he genuinely earned their respect when he got back onto the field at mid-season in 2015 in good enough condition to play well. They were also impressed when he reported this year in good shape, with a good work ethic.

This respect by the Giants make it JPP's best decision to stay where he is known. If he leaves for another team for a huge contract, he will find that if he gets off to a slow start, or starts missing games with injuries, they will have little patience with him.

If fans don't appreciate the value of JPP to make big, game-changing plays, I'm not going to convince them.

Consider this story that Parcell's tells: In 1984 the NFL had a USFL dispersion draft, so teams could put their claims in early for players in that league if they became available individually or collectively (if the league went bust).

The Giants had the third pick and Parcells lobbied Young hard to select Reggie White. Young instead went to the position of need, the OL, and picked Gary Zimmerman, who then refused to play for the Giants. We all know where Reggie White ended up. Canton.

In comment 13338684 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:

Quote:

he does not help matters when he starts off with militant talk about how much money he should be offered. Other teams might have treated him a lot worse than the Giants when he blew up his hand. According to reports from management, he genuinely earned their respect when he got back onto the field at mid-season in 2015 in good enough condition to play well. They were also impressed when he reported this year in good shape, with a good work ethic. This respect by the Giants make it JPP's best decision to stay where he is known. If he leaves for another team for a huge contract, he will find that if he gets off to a slow start, or starts missing games with injuries, they will have little patience with him. If fans don't appreciate the value of JPP to make big, game-changing plays, I'm not going to convince them. Consider this story that Parcell's tells: In 1984 the NFL had a USFL dispersion draft, so teams could put their claims in early for players in that league if they became available individually or collectively (if the league went bust). The Giants had the third pick and Parcells lobbied Young hard to select Reggie White. Young instead went to the position of need, the OL, and picked Gary Zimmerman, who then refused to play for the Giants. We all know where Reggie White ended up. Canton.

So did Gary Zimmerman

In comment 13338010 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Like it or not, JPP agreed to take a 1 year "prove it" deal and he proved it. Someone is going to pay him good money.

but he got injured, missed the Dallas, Skins and Packers playoff game. One injury has nothing to do with the other yet he didn't prove he could stay healthy.

Said it before and I'll post it again, franchise tag for 2017/18 and he walks in 2018/19.

So did Gary Zimmerman.

Yes, the USFL had some pretty good players.

I don't think that very many would take Zimmerman over White.

I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.

maybe he'll take a pay cut so that we can afford to get him a better supporting cast.

No. You don't think so.

According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850.

I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection.

So on the basis of the 5 or 6 good games he had this year sandwiched between 5 or 6 bad ones and 4 or 5 injured ones he thinks he deserves a long term $85M contract? So you start giving out big, long term contracts for that kind of performance and eventually you'll be giving them out to guys on the basis that they had one good game or two good quarters. Screw JPP and the horse he rode in on. He needs a good dose of reality. He's a descending player as opposed to Vernon who's an ascending player. The Giants should make him a reasonable offer and if he doesn't like it, too bad. Draft a Taco Charlton or a DeMarcus Walker and move on.

In comment 13338751 johnboyw said:

Quote:

So on the basis of the 5 or 6 good games he had this year sandwiched between 5 or 6 bad ones and 4 or 5 injured ones he thinks he deserves a long term $85M contract? So you start giving out big, long term contracts for that kind of performance and eventually you'll be giving them out to guys on the basis that they had one good game or two good quarters. Screw JPP and the horse he rode in on. He needs a good dose of reality. He's a descending player as opposed to Vernon who's an ascending player. The Giants should make him a reasonable offer and if he doesn't like it, too bad. Draft a Taco Charlton or a DeMarcus Walker and move on.

5 or 6 games? Descending player?

Apparently you don't watch football.

If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words. I don't think the Giants want that Ness again, and the bad blood that comes with it.

I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple.

the sticking point on the contract isn't going to be the salary, it will be the length, and thusly signing bonus.

I'd expect the Giants will want a 4 year deal. If that 5th year is a deal breaker for either side this doesn't get done.

In comment 13338733 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:

Quote:

maybe he'll take a pay cut so that we can afford to get him a better supporting cast. No. You don't think so. According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850. I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection.

This has to be close to the dumbest fucking ideas. Because Reese has fucked up so many drafts, Eli should take less money than what is in his contract? If anything, he deserves hazard pay and it should be deducted from Reese's check.

In comment 13338758 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words.

It won't necessarily get messy, both sides understand it's a business decision, nothing personal. And if it does get messy, so be it. You don't just give away an asset like JPP for free. I'll go back to my "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you don't have room for it in the garage" and add to that, "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you're too lazy to put an ad in the paper and haggle over price." If worse comes to worst, you trade him. But I don't think worse will come to worst. I think JPP signs a team friendly $80M five year deal with $24-$28M guaranteed (with $40-$45M in total compensation over the first three years).

The messy one is going to be OBJ. He is finally eligible for an extension and I expect he will be demanding it. And who could blame him? And if he wasn't such a head case, the Giants would gladly make him the highest paid WR in the game. But head case or not, he is the most valuable player on the team outside of Eli and his salary is $1.8M next season. Who do you think would be more willing to miss game checks, JPP on the franchise tag or OBJ on his rookie contract?

In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:

Quote:

So did Gary Zimmerman. I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.

He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.

In comment 13338771 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 13338758 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words. It won't necessarily get messy, both sides understand it's a business decision, nothing personal. And if it does get messy, so be it. You don't just give away an asset like JPP for free. I'll go back to my "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you don't have room for it in the garage" and add to that, "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you're too lazy to put an ad in the paper and haggle over price." If worse comes to worst, you trade him. But I don't think worse will come to worst. I think JPP signs a team friendly $80M five year deal with $24-$28M guaranteed (with $40-$45M in total compensation over the first three years). The messy one is going to be OBJ. He is finally eligible for an extension and I expect he will be demanding it. And who could blame him? And if he wasn't such a head case, the Giants would gladly make him the highest paid WR in the game. But head case or not, he is the most valuable player on the team outside of Eli and his salary is $1.8M next season. Who do you think would be more willing to miss game checks, JPP on the franchise tag or OBJ on his rookie contract?

Agree 100% with Milton here. This is business, and it's not like 17M is chump change. He's going to evaluate what possibilities exist based on offers he gets elsewhere, and determine whether the risk of playing out the year on the tag warrants the extra money.

On OBJ, I don't think it's going to be that complicated either, they're going to back up the brinks truck with Eli nearing retirement. I don't think his antics will prevent that.

Fine, he needs to prioritize better perhaps, but this is a social media world. Some embrace it, some avoid it(if possible)..By all accounts he's a fabulous teammate, loved in the lockerroom, works really hard and has fun playing, imv. He dropped some passes in his playoff debit, BFD..Welcome to the Antonio Brown, Randy Moss, Jerry Rice and fill in the name here, club..

ASAP you sign him long term when you monetarily can. End of story..

In comment 13338768 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

In comment 13338733 SB 42 and 46 and ? said: Quote: maybe he'll take a pay cut so that we can afford to get him a better supporting cast. No. You don't think so. According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850. I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection. This has to be close to the dumbest fucking ideas. Because Reese has fucked up so many drafts, Eli should take less money than what is in his contract? If anything, he deserves hazard pay and it should be deducted from Reese's check.

Nothing like doubling double on dumb fucking ideas.

In comment 13338774 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said: Quote: So did Gary Zimmerman. I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York. He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.

That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.

In comment 13338758 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words. I don't think the Giants want that Ness again, and the bad blood that comes with it. I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple.

It got messy the day he blew off part of his hand. It became questionable when he torn his groin or suffered a hernia which caused him to miss the Dallas, Redskins and Packers game. By the way, the Giants shut down both Dallas and the Redskins without him. They also stopped the Packers for the most part of one half.

I think Giants are better off with JPP and the CBA included the option to franchise him. This is business and nobody is going to cry if a guy gets pissy b/c he doesn't want to sign a one year deal in the $17-18 million dollar range when he's already made enough to retire on.

In comment 13338821 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

In comment 13338774 section125 said: Quote: In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said: Quote: So did Gary Zimmerman. I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York. He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC. That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.

The Giants traded Zimmerman to the Vikings for two 2nd round picks which they used on Mark Collins and Greg Lasker. The Giants had four 2nd round picks that year, the other two were used on Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Not bad!

In comment 13338853 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 13338821 Victor in CT said: Quote: In comment 13338774 section125 said: Quote: In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said: Quote: So did Gary Zimmerman. I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York. He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC. That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season. The Giants traded Zimmerman to the Vikings for two 2nd round picks which they used on Mark Collins and Greg Lasker. The Giants had four 2nd round picks that year, the other two were used on Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Not bad!

Well, people bring this up a lot yet let's remember a few things.

Reggie White might be the best DE ever. A force like that many have the difference in 85, 88 and 89.

Yes, the Giants received some draft choices yet remember, if the Giants had Reggie White they wouldn't have drafted Eric Dorsey at #1 and they could have held onto Jim Burt who played for years instead of drafting Erik Howard. With their own #1 and #2 they still could have drafted Pepper and Collins (or swapped in Howard).

IMO, adding another force like Taylor may have resulted in more championships b/c several of the other players mentioned could have still be drafted and some retained.

JPP gets this kind of contract is if someone thinks he is the same player we thought we had his first year here. Look at he is performance since then and considerer his injury history and games missed. Putting the tag on him will piss him off and who knows how he plays under that scenario with his attitude. Pass

In comment 13338629 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 13338218 Brandon Walsh said: Quote: The Giants are not letting him walk. Its goes against any type of roster building they've done over the past 20 years. Young, homegrown, defensive end. Not happening. Going into a season with potentially two defensive ends taking up $30+ million in cap cost goes against any type of roster building they've done too. In 2016, the Giants allocated $70m of their cap to 31 players on defense

Well JPP took up $10 million of that number since he only had a one year deal. His first year number would be much lower than that if they did work out a long term deal so not seeing your point.

In comment 13338845 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338758 LakeGeorgeGiant said: Quote: If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words. I don't think the Giants want that Ness again, and the bad blood that comes with it. I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple. It got messy the day he blew off part of his hand. It became questionable when he torn his groin or suffered a hernia which caused him to miss the Dallas, Redskins and Packers game. By the way, the Giants shut down both Dallas and the Redskins without him. They also stopped the Packers for the most part of one half. I think Giants are better off with JPP and the CBA included the option to franchise him. This is business and nobody is going to cry if a guy gets pissy b/c he doesn't want to sign a one year deal in the $17-18 million dollar range when he's already made enough to retire on.

...and it will tie our hands in free agency to boot.

We have cap space to be flexible, but $17 million for one year makes us a lot less flexible. He doesn't want that, and the Giants don't want that.

If they franchise him it would be a farce. They would have to either work out a long term deal with a now disgruntled player or rescind the tag. They aren't paying him the franchise tender. How does this help?

The Giants either want JPP or they don't. They will pay him or they won't. I just don't see them dicking around with the tag again after the shitshow last time.

The idea that we are going to get huge compensation for him is a fanboy fantasy. If we franchise him, any potential suitor will spend their money elsewhere, or wait for the shit to hit the fan.

You are living in la-la land if you think we are going to franchise and trade him...There is a reason that never happens.

I never mentioned trade or La la land.

A one year franchise tag doesn't prevent flexibility b/c other FA signed have their bonus dollars against the cap allocated towards another year of necessary. JPP along on one year frees up approx $17 million next year.

It's pretty easy

when so many fans are trying to give off the impression the Giants best defensive end is a guy the team doesn't really want back.


If you can Franchise JPP for 17 million and get him for one more year or trade him for compensation of any amount how is that worse than losing him for no compensation or signing him to a deal that averages 17+ million a year?

I'm beating a dead horse but most fans seem completely ignorant of the going rate for top talent. The Giants set the market with Vernon. The next closest comparison I can think of to JPP is Calais Campbell who is 3 years older than JPP. Campbell made 15+ million this year and 14+ million last year. JPP is going to make huge money and there is no way to stop it. The question is whether he makes the Giants a better team than the free agents the Giants could sign with that money.

I don't see the logic in refusing to "overpay" for JPP by using that money to overpay for free agents that may or may not pan out or even be worth it. The Giants have 2 Top DEs right now with nothing behind them, removing 1 doesn't improve the team. But if that is how you really feel I don't understand the huge risk with attempting to get something of value for losing a top player in the NFL.

In comment 13339331 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

I never mentioned trade or La la land. A one year franchise tag doesn't prevent flexibility b/c other FA signed have their bonus dollars against the cap allocated towards another year of necessary. JPP along on one year frees up approx $17 million next year. It's pretty easy

You're making a huge assumption that a one year FT tag that pays JPP 17 MILLION in guaranteed loot for ONE year doesn't impact their spending this off-season.

Ill say it again...for the 10th time...forget the cap. Think about the owners and the money they want to spend every year. This isn't cap dollars as much as it's MARA'S dollars. They just spent 100 million in guaranteed money last off-season. Do you really think the Mara's or any owner for that matter is willing to spend 100 million in one off-season then go out and spend another 60 million in cash the very next year?

It's not about the cap all the time. It's about dollars and cents. If you tag JPP you compromise this off-season in a big big way. There's no way to argue against that.

walks up to Reese and says "you can spend 38 million in guaranteed money this Spring."

Are you then going to slice into that 38 million and reduce that to 20 and only have one year of JPP to show for it? Think about that for a second.

If you sign JPP long term it will without question help the Giants spend more money today as they can spread out the cap hit to JPP. IT's not as simple as saying ahhh fuck it let's just tag JPP and move on in 2018. You're paying a king's ransom for one lousy season. 17 million is a lot of loot. For one year? I hate it.

You clearly no idea how the cap works which is why you dismissed it. The cap is a combo of total revenues league wide, naming writes revenues, etc in addition to the defined gross revenues. When the dollars aren't used they get banked into the next year. That's why $100 million guaranteed is not only spread out over years but a floor of true dollars is used rather than air league wide.

You're responding to your delusion of how the cap works b/c you demonstrate you don't understand it. Multiple posters have posted what I have and it's exactly what teams exercised easily for years. Especially under the new CBA where draft picks cost little for years. Why do think so much cap space is available throughout the league? It's not b/c they're frugal.

In comment 13338853 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 13338821 Victor in CT said: Quote: In comment 13338774 section125 said: Quote: In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said: Quote: So did Gary Zimmerman. I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York. He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC. That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season. The Giants traded Zimmerman to the Vikings for two 2nd round picks which they used on Mark Collins and Greg Lasker. The Giants had four 2nd round picks that year, the other two were used on Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Not bad!

GY and Parcells loved drafting DEFENSE. Good stuff.

he wanted players who could play effectively in cold come late November and December

In comment 13338865 TMS said:

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JPP gets this kind of contract is if someone thinks he is the same player we thought we had his first year here. Look at he is performance since then and considerer his injury history and games missed. Putting the tag on him will piss him off and who knows how he plays under that scenario with his attitude. Pass

His performance has been fine if not excellent. It's the injury history. Watch other DEs up close for a full year or more and then watch JPP. He's every bit the player that every single DE is other than Watt. And Watt just missed the entire season with an injury that JPP played through.

Some of you say things that make me wonder if you're just trolling.

In comment 13339537 Giants2012 said:

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You clearly no idea how the cap works which is why you dismissed it. The cap is a combo of total revenues league wide, naming writes revenues, etc in addition to the defined gross revenues. When the dollars aren't used they get banked into the next year. That's why $100 million guaranteed is not only spread out over years but a floor of true dollars is used rather than air league wide. You're responding to your delusion of how the cap works b/c you demonstrate you don't understand it. Multiple posters have posted what I have and it's exactly what teams exercised easily for years. Especially under the new CBA where draft picks cost little for years. Why do think so much cap space is available throughout the league? It's not b/c they're frugal.

What on earth are you talking about? I said in many ways it's more about upfront money than anything else. And I was trying to convey that the cap in many ways is a mystery to us all because of all the methods teams use to circumvent it. This is just a fact.

It's all about the guaranteed money. Cash. The owners only have so much CASH on hand to spend every off-season. The cap is one thing, the upfront money that an owner has it his disposal is something else entirely. IF you don't agree I don't know what to tell you. Cash is king. I never said frugal or cheap I said teams like the Giants will only have so much upfront cash to spend every year.

don't waste your time typing 1000 words about the salary cap. I don't wanna hear it and don't care if you're an expert. Everything thinks they know it. No one knows shit.

circumvent the cap. You can pay more now rather than later. You can more later more than now. I don't even care to know the dynamics to cap allocation. All I know is the Giants won't spend the same bonus money as they did last year even if they had 40 million in cap space, like they had last year. Take it to the bank. They aren't dishing out 100 million in guarantees this Spring. Cap space or not, that't a lot of loot. That's all I am saying. IF you pay JPP a one year FT that costs 17 million you're impacting how much money the Giants can spend this off-season. IF you pay him a longer term deal and spread the money out you can spend more money this off-season. But with that long term deal comes risks. That's all I am saying.

In comment 13340246 djm said:

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It's all about the guaranteed money. Cash. The owners only have so much CASH on hand to spend every off-season.

Guaranteed money and signing bonus (cash) are two different things. Owners can guarantee future salary and there are also deferred payments (which is what Plaxico sued the Giants over after they refused him the money after he shot himself...and Plaxico won). On top of that, the Maras may not be billionaires, but the Tischs so cash flow and liquidity are not an issue. There are maybe a handful of teams where cash flow may be an issue, but the Giants aren't one of them.

In comment 13340273 Milton said:

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In comment 13340246 djm said: Quote: It's all about the guaranteed money. Cash. The owners only have so much CASH on hand to spend every off-season. Guaranteed money and signing bonus (cash) are two different things. Owners can guarantee future salary and there are also deferred payments (which is what Plaxico sued the Giants over after they refused him the money after he shot himself...and Plaxico won). On top of that, the Maras may not be billionaires, but the Tischs so cash flow and liquidity are not an issue. There are maybe a handful of teams where cash flow may be an issue, but the Giants aren't one of them.

Milton this is just not true. The Mara's even acknowledged that cash flow was in fact an issue for a time after they built the new stadium. I don't know where I heard it, but I definitely heard it.

It's always about the money.

I am not disputing that. The timing of things comes into play though. If they open up the war chest one year they aren't going to spend as much cash the next year, more often than not. Every team operates this way because owners only have so much cash to spend. Cap comes into play too.

In comment 13340247 djm said:

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don't waste your time typing 1000 words about the salary cap. I don't wanna hear it and don't care if you're an expert. Everything thinks they know it. No one knows shit.

So basically you're incapable of learning anything and discredit everything besides your delusion of reality (in this case, your perception Mara's hard cash is the same as the cap). Great, job.