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| DE Jason Pierre-Paul has his sights set on “at least” the five-year, $85 million contract signed by fellow Giants’ DE Olivier Vernon last year. - per Ralph Vacchiano According to Vacchiano, it’s possible that Pierre-Paul could target even more money than Vernon got when you consider the amount of available cap space for teams to work with this offseason. |
+2. Somebody is going to offer him crazy coin. Not sure about Hankins, but he may be gone as well.
Dallas can afford him?
+1
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considering the number of plays he's made against them over the years and the fact that they desperately need a pass rush.
Dallas can afford him?
They're not going to let Tony Romo's contract just sit around on the bench while they're in a winning window.I have no idea what their cap is, but they're not letting $18-20m go to waste as a backup QB.
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In comment 13337636 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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considering the number of plays he's made against them over the years and the fact that they desperately need a pass rush.
Dallas can afford him?
They're not going to let Tony Romo's contract just sit around on the bench while they're in a winning window.I have no idea what their cap is, but they're not letting $18-20m go to waste as a backup QB.
the most the Cowboys can save this year is ~$5M by cutting or trading Romo and they're not in cap shape.
I'll be shocked if JPP winds up in Dallas when teams like Cleveland, Tennessee, SF, Jacksonville even New England have over 50M in cap space, (Cleveland over 100M) before any cap cuts by any of them.
THat would be disgusting but are they the only team over the cap?
We should have enough to make other moves and worst case scenario you recind it.
Yes
$17 million for one year and let him walk afterwards unless somebody else signs him after the tag is placed in him. I'd be willing to negotiate the two #1 price tag down
Eh, not really.The estimated franchise tag for a DT this year is 13.5M.
Hankins is absolutely freaking not worth that money.
Hankins doenst deserve a franchise tag.
hes expendable
How do you know Jax will have a premium pick next year? Any draft pick compensation is given in the following year. Tag him and we do have leverage while it eats into our available cap by 17 mil. He is not going to sign the tag. He might force the Giants hand to pull the tag and make him a free agent. Of course the FA OL that can help us will be gone, but we can always count on Newhouse and Jerry to be available.
I don't think anyone is paying him Vernon money either. He's older, has had back issues and plays with a special device on his hand. He's going to get paid without a doubt, but I don't think he's going to max out the position.
It makes sense. This 2-4 year window is all we have before we will be shopping for a QB.
It makes no sense to roll over the cap space.
We're not going to choose Hankins, Cruz, or Jennings.
I don't think anyone is paying him Vernon money either. He's older, has had back issues and plays with a special device on his hand. He's going to get paid without a doubt, but I don't think he's going to max out the position.
He says he won't sign the tag. Of course, after the deadline passes for us to work out a long-term deal (July 15), then he'll sign it so he doesn't miss out on the year. With that being said, he can sit out all of training camp. If he signs the tag before, then we can fine him. When you get 17 mil guaranteed, 30k/day is no big deal and he doesn't have to be near the facility. If he doesn't sign the tag before camp, we can't fine a player who's not under contract. We could always rescind the tag, but in his case, there will be plenty of teams willing to pay him his market rate regardless if it is Aug. 31st.
Wouldn't mind seeing them heavily invest in the OL as Eli winds down his career.
Defense played well without JPP other than one half of football.
Not unfamiliar territory for these guys. Cruz went the same route and came back with a deal. Here, the only question is whether the Giants are willing to commit so much money to the DE position.
He is a bad man.
I hate that fans care so much about salary - as a negative - the gm's job is to build a talented roster - who give a crap about how much he is paid
Giants hold the cards
lol This was my first thought. I love JPP and he probably deserves that kind of money but I can't see the Giants doing it. Too much money for a guy who seems to always have some kind of injury happening.
I don't think anyone is paying him Vernon money either. He's older, has had back issues and plays with a special device on his hand. He's going to get paid without a doubt, but I don't think he's going to max out the position.
They have zero chance of signing him. They'll be lucky to keep Terrell McLain much less sign an $85m JPP.
Yep
Sucks for him, but that's business
F R A N C H I S E
Bottomline is he's not going anywhere unless we trade him out of the division.
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I really doubt we franchise him again. If anything, we should use the franchise tag on Hankins. It would be a lot cheaper.
Hankins doenst deserve a franchise tag.
hes expendable
a) no he's not.
2) you can't just wish away everyone who you think is expendable, trust me. I wouldn't have to reply to your post if that was the case
It makes sense. This 2-4 year window is all we have before we will be shopping for a QB.
It makes no sense to roll over the cap space.
We're not going to choose Hankins, Cruz, or Jennings.
Hankins is not in the same stratosphere as Cruz or Jennings. It's almost like you're as anti-Hankins as that John Jerry dupe was pro-Jerry. And equally wrong.
Nor would I franchise tag him.
Lets keep getting younger, healthier and better...
He is a bad man.
I hate that fans care so much about salary - as a negative - the gm's job is to build a talented roster - who give a crap about how much he is paid
It's really not that hard to understand.
If there was no cap most fans wouldn't care about individual players salaries but because of how much individual players are paid affects the teams ability to sign other players is why fans care about how much payers are paid.
Nor would I franchise tag him.
Lets keep getting younger, healthier and better...
I agree. I think JPP is getting 17.5 avg salary. We can't afford him. And in some ways we've evolved from him. Yes he's the best talent on the line but he's also the most fragile. And his window is the most narrow. Hope Charlton likes blue, because I think Taco is going to be playing alongside Snacks. Let's the Daily News headlines begin.
This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him.
He is okay but come on...
This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him.
was it fine.. really ?? They had trouble pressuring the QB without blitzing.. they dont have any other quality DE's outside of OV.. and please dont give me a line about Okwara who played ONE decent game and was invisible the rest of the way..
They can ill afford to walk away from a DE who is still young and in his prime.. They have to try and get something done..
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Yes it was elite with him, but the drop off really wasn't worth paying another OV contract for. See ya JPP, you deserve a big pay day. Hope you win your suit against shefter to, you were a great Giant and I'll always be grateful for giving it your all. I hope we can net something from him, but it is what it is.
This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him.
was it fine.. really ?? They had trouble pressuring the QB without blitzing.. they dont have any other quality DE's outside of OV.. and please dont give me a line about Okwara who played ONE decent game and was invisible the rest of the way..
They can ill afford to walk away from a DE who is still young and in his prime.. They have to try and get something done..
You're saying he played one fine game because of the sack, but it was clear that Okwara showed more promise than any DE draft pick of the last 4 years, as an UDFA. There was a clear drop off when Wynn or OO was in there. Okwara has the right kind of athleticism to be a 3 down DE for us. Not that we can't improve the position, but to crapfest on Okwara because he didn't have a sack in each game is overly simplifying what he did or should do.
Regardless, Okwara being average is bearable if we can retain Hanks, Robinson, and sign a vet OLT. JPP could crush any hopes of an offensive rebuild if he commands the money he claims he expects.
But I would think DE has to be a draft priority with the #1 or #2 pick if we lose him. Which I am okay with because we can't have two Vernon contracts on this line.
But I would think DE has to be a draft priority with the #1 or #2 pick if we lose him. Which I am okay with because we can't have two Vernon contracts on this line.
100%
If it were MLB or NBA it'd be a no brainer re-sign. We need a OLT though.
Three problems solved for the price of one.
Viola!
There are still questions about his motivation / character. Personally I say franchise him and trade him for a 1 mid to late one or swap 1st rounders with one of the teams picking high. (maybe you can grab another 3rd too)
Of the franchise tag (all I now, correct me if I'm wrong) is that this coming year it will cost at least $17M to do that (as he would qualify to be paid equal to or more that the four highest paid players at his position).
If we do franchise him (and he refuses to sign the tag, he sits home a loses money, but we don't have any trade value for him) - Is that correct ?
Unfortunately, JPP's situation is very unique. Recall, that before he hurt himself, he was ready (at the prodding of his agent Eugene Parker) to take a hard stand against signing the 2016 franchise tag. Then he blew his fingers off, and he lost his negotiation leverage.
Subsequently he signed a one year "prove it" contract, which he did, amazingly. Given all the hell he's gone through, I really doubt if you'll see him back down. If he does come back, (not getting close to what he wants) he'll be very pissed off. The last thing we want in the locker room is another Albert Haynesworth.
I understand that we're about $25M under the cap, if we give him that $17M (or more that he wants), forget about trying to fix the offense (which has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.
I wish we COULD keep him, but I just don't see how. We saw the offense slide backwards this year; we just can't let it slide over the cliff, next year.
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of course the agent will ask for the moon. Tag him and we have leverage. If someone like Jacksonville wants him, they can give us their premium draft pick as compensation.
How do you know Jax will have a premium pick next year? Any draft pick compensation is given in the following year. Tag him and we do have leverage while it eats into our available cap by 17 mil. He is not going to sign the tag. He might force the Giants hand to pull the tag and make him a free agent. Of course the FA OL that can help us will be gone, but we can always count on Newhouse and Jerry to be available.
I personally know for a fact that Jax will pick in the top 13 next year.
I'll bet cash on that right now.
Wouldn't mind seeing them heavily invest in the OL as Eli winds down his career.
Defense played well without JPP other than one half of football.
This.
It's time they allocate resources to the biggest position of need and, that is the OL. JPP's career as a Giant was great, but it shouldn't define their future. Should he find a better contract elsewhere, superb. I wish him well.
If JPP is looking at $85m/5years, that won't likely happen here and JPP has already gone on the record that he won't sign a one year deal.
If we can't sign JPP to an extension, I do think we franchise him initially. The ball is then then in his court as to whether he takes a lesser deal here or we can trade him. I could see us getting a second round pick from a team like Cleveland or Jacksonville (which is better than any comp pick in 2018)
As far as replacing JPP, there are options in the draft. I could also see us looking at someone like Nick Perry or Jabaal Sheard in free agency.
p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.
p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.
What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason?
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They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency.
p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.
What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason?
The only reason not to pay JPP is if you're worried about his ability to stay on the field. As long as he is on the field making plays, the $17M franchise tag won't matter any more than the $10M they paid him last year. The problem is getting to the playoffs and not having him (and DRC) on the field helping out against Aaron Rodgers. So that's what they have to evaluate (same with DRC's future). If the doctors and trainers believe JPP and DRC are no more likely to end the year on IR than anyone else, then pay the man.
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In comment 13337812 Milton said:
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They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency.
p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.
What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason?
It's not that difficult, the first year of a new contract is always the cheapest against the cap. The key is signing guys who actually make a difference. Unless you're in cap hell (which the Giants aren't), you can find room for impact players. No matter how much you spend, it's always money well spent if the guy is making an impact. The road to cap hell is paved with non-impact players getting paid impact player money, not overpaying for impact players. As long as JPP, Vernon, Snacks, Jenkins, Eli, etc, are on the field making plays, the Giants cap will remain in good health.
The only reason not to pay JPP is if you're worried about his ability to stay on the field. As long as he is on the field making plays, the $17M franchise tag won't matter any more than the $10M they paid him last year. The problem is getting to the playoffs and not having him (and DRC) on the field helping out against Aaron Rodgers. So that's what they have to evaluate (same with DRC's future). If the doctors and trainers believe JPP and DRC are no more likely to end the year on IR than anyone else, then pay the man.
Got you. So they'd sign him to a 5 year 80 something mill. putting 10 against the cap this year? Giving them space (say the 10 goes against 30 they were able to create with cuts, leaving 20 mill more in cap) they could use to sign e.g. a top of the line OLT, even a short term vet deal to a guy like Whitworth?
Gregg Rosenthal on the top free agents of 2017 - ( New Window )
He is a bad man.
I hate that fans care so much about salary - as a negative - the gm's job is to build a talented roster - who give a crap about how much he is paid
Because the salary cap makes it a very important consideration. So, insofar as it relates to the GM being able to do his job of building a talented roster, I give a crap about how much players are paid.
Can anyone think of a downside to this because I can't
Giants hold all the cards though and they were pretty damn good to him during the firework fiasco so maybe that will account for something.
Giants hold all the cards though and they were pretty damn good to him during the firework fiasco so maybe that will account for something.
JPP can't afford to be a distraction, he already had plenty of that. He knows the score - if they can't work out something long term, then he plays for top guaranteed dollar this season and cashes in next.
Of course the risk of injury complicates matters a bit, but the fact that he's nearing 30 and has had other health issues means it's not all cut and dry in his favor.
He's an excellent DE - if not the top guy, one of the top 3-4 without a doubt. The nonsense about being a stat compiler against bad teams is just proof that you can't rely on stats in football the way you can in other sports. Very rarely do you put a healthy JPP on the field and he disappears. He might not get sacks, but he'll get hurries, tips, tackles and everything else.
He's had some warts though, even without the fireworks incident. He's had rumors about his work ethic (when he showed up to camp overweight before he injured his back). He's had recurring back issues. He poses a decent risk of mailing it in with the next contract. I'm a big fan, and I'd give him double digit millions easily, but I don't think the long range forecast for JPP is as rosy as Vernon. Vernon was younger, healthier and on the rise. We have probably seen peak JPP, and now you have to wonder for the next contract, how close to current state and health he will remain and for how long.
If someone comes along and offers JPP $80M in guarantees I think we need to part ways. Sad, and I'd hate losing him that way, but I don't think he holds up at this level long enough to justify that.
The only thing JPP has said is that he doesn't want to sign a one year deal again.
It's merely speculation at this point that he is looking for Olivier Vernon money.
JR has his work cut out for himself. Tough choice and I really want JPP back, but in a year that requires doing something positive on the oline and WR, not sure there is enough money to pay JPP what he wants. Of course there aren't any OTs worth looking at (except maybe Whitworth).
I guess signing Pugh long term will reduce his cap hit.
I also feel Hankins is worth a reasonable payday if just for continuity and he will be fairly inexpensive in most cases.
If JPP goes, it is likely DE, if in the same tier, will be the pick.
Papa, Dotino, Schmeelk(sp) said the same thing..I agree with them..One of their points was you get to see if Hankins is truly worth a big contract moving forward..They also said you do that and sign JPP. Problem with that is, there's no guarantee you can sign him. Agree with Diver down's take on the problems a FT of JPP brings
Everyone that says franchise him.
Diver_Down : 1/23/2017 9:17 pm : link : reply
Are you content letting the negotiations linger until after July 15 in which case his only option is to sign the tender, but we would be unable to negotiate a long-term contract after that date? Keep in mind that 17 mil must be allocated from the cap limiting our ability to react in the early days of FA to sign OL help.
If that's all we do in free agency, keep those two, I am good, paired with an all offense draft.
This.
Franchizing Hanks and signing JPP long term sounds cute, but cap-wise that is probably the most absurd use of resources possible.
You cannot get trapped into ditching a strategy just because (a list of OLs) did not play up to par.
Prior to drafting ODB I said that if we went WR as opposed to OL, we might risk two or more years of OL play that would not be good enough for how this team plays.
True. Now, was ignorant of how great Odell would be? Totally.
But we have to bite the bullet in the draft at this point, not mortgage the future knicks style with older OLers.
Jason Pierre-Paul DE 28 NYG TBD $10,000,000 UFA
Keenan Robinson ILB 27 NYG TBD $2,600,000 UFA - (maybe)
Larry Donnell TE 28 NYG TBD $1,671,000 UFA - (no)
Marshall Newhouse RT 28 NYG TBD $1,500,000 UFA - (no)
Leon Hall CB 32 NYG TBD $1,500,000 UFA - (maybe)
Mark Herzlich OLB 29 NYG TBD $1,300,000 UFA - (maybe)
William Beatty LT 31 NYG TBD $1,100,000 UFA - (no)
Zak DeOssie LS 32 NYG TBD $1,100,000 UFA - (maybe)
Johnathan Hankins DT 25 NYG TBD $1,007,672 UFA - (yes)
Robbie Gould K 35 NYG TBD $985,000 UFA - (replaceable)
Josh Johnson QB 30 NYG TBD $885,000 UFA - (no)
Bobby Rainey RB 29 NYG TBD $840,000 UFA - (no)
Kelvin Sheppard ILB 29 NYG TBD $840,000 UFA - (no)
Coty Sensabaugh CB 28 NYG TBD $760,000 UFA - (no)
Ryan Nassib QB 26 NYG TBD $653,400 UFA - (no)
Trevin Wade CB 27 NYG TBD $630,000 UFA (maybe)
I mean, one could make arguments for Hall, Herzlich and Robinson, maybe Wade, but even those guys are not core, core guys.
Now, who would you draft or hire in FA to replace Hank and JPP?
Imagine this teams 2016 record without a great defense, 0-16?
What do you guys really imagine will happen with the offense next year to account for that gap?
JPP might not like it, but realistically, there's nothing he can do about it. He's not going to refuse to sign the tender and sit out the season (and Giants could always tag him again the next year). He can either play on the tag for one year, or accept the multiyear extension the Giants offer him. He simply won't have the opportunity to ever hit the open market if the Giants play this right.
J.T. Thomas OLB 28 NYG TBD $3,333,333 UFA (no)
Jonathan Casillas OLB 29 NYG TBD $2,666,667 UFA (not really)
Rashad Jennings RB 31 NYG TBD $2,500,000 UFA (not really)
Justin Pugh G 26 NYG TBD $2,086,475 UFA (yes, but not more important than JPP )
Weston Richburg C 25 NYG TBD $1,219,338 UFA (maybe, see 17 draft)
Will Johnson FB 28 NYG TBD $1,150,000 UFA (no)
Jay Bromley DT 24 NYG TBD $750,903 UFA (no)
Tavarres King WR 26 NYG TBD $645,000 UFA (yes, but cheaply)
Nat Berhe FS 25 NYG TBD $603,200 UFA (no)
Devon Kennard OLB 25 NYG TBD $591,140 UFA (expendable for JPP)
They are paying the dough whether they like it or not. The only question is length of contract and how to structure it.
If they had the Giants roster? Move JPP out, have Okwara make the Pro-Bowl, trade a 4th Rounder for Joe Thomas, sign Martellus Bennett, draft HB McCaffery, trade OBJ to New Orleans for two future #1 picks and win the Super Bowl while being accused of cheating.
Sounds about right :).
use the # 23 pick on a DE
spend money on #2 WR = Jeffery
and a LT
Make it (relatively) cheap the first 3 years. Biggest money doesn't kick in until 2020 when Eli retires. Giants still have flexibility.
BUH BYE!!!
Also, the front office is on fire over OBJ - his antics have not stopped 3 years into the league. If they get a sweet package of picks he will be gone. Book it.
Nor would I franchise tag him.
Lets keep getting younger, healthier and better...
Unfortunately JPP is more valuable, a better player then Vernon, and one of the top 3 two way DEs in the NFL...the IDIOTS on drug are the people on this board that think the guy is signing for less then what he is worth...you don't win in the NFL by constantly having to replace your best players...especially young players approaching their prime...the Giants have plenty of cap space...have a number of "dead wood" player they can cut...players they can restructure and extend...it simple..
PAY THE MAN!!!
JPP needs to be their #1 priority and deserves Vernon money +
I would go same length and amount....but the Giants can probably make an argument on the guarantee money based on his injury history, his accident, and the fact that JPP is 2 years older then Vernon...
JPP and OV are both better when the other is out there.
No one wants to mention how OV's production fell off after JPP went down huh?
Obviously the Giants can't hand out blank checks, but they will negotiate. You never want to see talent walking out the door.
They've been through this routine with Strahan, Tuck and Osi. They will get something done.
JPP does it all, run stopping, pass blocking, sacking, hurrying, kick blocking, pressures, and he's everywhere on the field and plays with high energy non-stop on defense all game long
The Giants set the market with the Vernon deal, and now they have to live in it.
I'd sign him. But if he goes, I am proud of him as a person and player. He was a huge part of the Giants getting a ring in 2011, has overcome an unimaginable obstacle and was a team first guy all the way.
I will never, ever forget or forget to appreciate how prepared he was in 2015 when he came back mid-season. He lost basically half his hand and was on the field kicking butt a few months later.
11 games in 13 (back surgery/shoulder)
8 games in 15 (fireworks accident)
12 games in 16 (groin/abdominal)
The Giants have a two, maybe three year window here to get it done. Be creative in managing the cap and make the push NOW. Pay the piper down the road.
More germain to this thread is this: People assume OV money should do it..The teams dripping with cap space will pay much more than OV money in the SAME WAY it was alleged here that we paid much more for last year's signings than we needed to..
He has been nothing but a warrior since then, played lots and lots of downs prior to the injury.
WTF do some of you guys want, frigging moses and effing LBJ and Kennedy and frigging james fucking bond?
More germain to this thread is this: People assume OV money should do it..The teams dripping with cap space will pay much more than OV money in the SAME WAY it was alleged here that we paid much more for last year's signings than we needed to..
JPP was also injured and missed the final 4 games so he had plenty of time to think about these things and wasn't caught up in the emotions of playing a game the day before.
And I agree that Jax or (especially) Cleveland could blow any offer away to get a relatively young player on-board that can anchor the D.
JPP gets slammed for comments after the season is over?
Some of you are hypocrites. Like it or not, JPP agreed to take a 1 year "prove it" deal and he proved it. Someone is going to pay him good money. If the Giants can make it work, they will. What organization have some of you been watching the last 20 years? They don't let premium DEs walk.
JPP gets slammed for comments after the season is over?
Some of you are hypocrites. Like it or not, JPP agreed to take a 1 year "prove it" deal and he proved it. Someone is going to pay him good money. If the Giants can make it work, they will. What organization have some of you been watching the last 20 years? They don't let premium DEs walk.
It's not a slam. I don't like him. Never will, but he's very good and working out a contract would be fine with me, though I will be upset with JR if he can't get something done with Hankins..
I thought his comments right after the season ended was cold, unfeeling, especially given how nice the Giants have been to him through that entire hand blow process..Yes it's a business, we all know this. Still, it was cold. TO ME.
Make it (relatively) cheap the first 3 years. Biggest money doesn't kick in until 2020 when Eli retires. Giants still have flexibility.
This is the correct answer.
Give JPP a nice signing bonus (say, $30M), backload the deal to have the big $$ in years 4 and 5 (say, have year 4 be $18M and year 5 be $20M)- everyone wins.
The agent can trumpet a "Vernon deal," while knowing that JPP will never play out years 4 and 5 of that deal. JPP gets big money immediately (the signing bonus) that can't be taken away, and the Giants lock up their other DE.
The Giants can then restructure or cut JPP after year 3, just as Eli moves off the books, when real money becomes available.
Sure, the SB causes dead money after year 3- but with $30M amortized over 5 years, $18M would have been depreciated, meaning the Giants would actually get cap savings by cutting JPP after year 3 because of the big base salary being cut offsets the SB remaining ($12M dead money offset by $18M base salary not paid under this scenario).
This isn't that hard to do.
That is of no importance though.
-seven tackles for loss
-seven sacks
-eight passes defended
-three forced fumbles
-fumble return for a touchdown
That's in 12 games.
No, by my logic you don't give out a big contract unless you feel damn good about the player living up to that deal.
That is of no importance though.
That is why you backload the contract- he's still 28- likely to have several high end years left. Plan for 3 years, and you are likely safe.
Hard to manage the cap that way, since salaries hit in full that year versus bonus money that can be spread out over three.
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(as much as possible). Salary guarantees are a safer way to deal with big contracts (less dead money and cap hit, if the player needs to be released)
Hard to manage the cap that way, since salaries hit in full that year versus bonus money that can be spread out over three.
Depends. The Eagles have used them with some success to get rid of underperforming players without major cap hits (IIRC, the Maxwell and Murray deals were structured this way). And while Vernon got a nice signing bonus ($20M), most of his guarantees or potential guarantees were in base salaries and/or roster bonuses ($7M roster bonus last year, ~$9M gtd base this year, potentially $12M gtd base in 2018).
And they also give you flexibility since you can (at least sometimes) convert the gtd base to a bonus payment and spread it out. The Dolphins did this with Suh and the Cowboys have done it a couple times with T Smith (though his base salaries may not have been gtd initally).
I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go.
I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go.
Also can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized..As Diver said:
Everyone that says franchise him.
Diver_Down : 1/23/2017 9:17 pm : link : reply
Are you content letting the negotiations linger until after July 15 in which case his only option is to sign the tender, but we would be unable to negotiate a long-term contract after that date? Keep in mind that 17 mil must be allocated from the cap limiting our ability to react in the early days of FA to sign OL help.
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and work out a deal on their terms or he'll play under the tag.
I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go.
Also can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized..As Diver said:
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Everyone that says franchise him.
Diver_Down : 1/23/2017 9:17 pm : link : reply
Are you content letting the negotiations linger until after July 15 in which case his only option is to sign the tender, but we would be unable to negotiate a long-term contract after that date? Keep in mind that 17 mil must be allocated from the cap limiting our ability to react in the early days of FA to sign OL help.
I understand how the cap works. The Giants own JPP. Franchising puts them in a position that is favorable to them. Letting him walk makes the defense significantly worse.
I can't imagine Reese, or any other GM would offer a tag and hope for the best, completely ignoring their gameplan for the rest of the offseason.
Signing JPP to dollars that might inhibit fixing the O, does not make us even close to being serious players for the trophy..
If JPP is signed in whatever way Abrams feels is doable and we fix the O, we are as strong a contender as anyone..If we lose JPP, sign Hankins, fix the OL, fix the TE position and get ourselves a third, bigger WR, then we vie even with a good(without JPP) D rather than a great (with JPP) D with last year's O
I can't imagine Reese, or any other GM would offer a tag and hope for the best, completely ignoring their gameplan for the rest of the offseason.
Except it happens..We'll never be able to secure top end OL talent with cap space deeply eaten into..Sure you can cut people, but you then have to replace those cuts, often with bigger contracts than you're cutting, imo..I think Abrams may be one of the best cap guys in the business, but even he might not succeed in improving the O if hamstrung by dollars, imv
the only thing is doc -- the Giants were 11-5 because of the Defense -- you take away one of the dominant defensive players -- and whether you like him or not -- JPP impacts the Run Defense (stops, penetration, chasing down)), the Pass Defense (sacks, hurries, pressure, blocked passes), and special teams (blocked FGs) - the defense takes a hit and is not as dominant a force in making key stops.
The Giants don't have enough impact Pass rushers with JPP on the roster -- losing him will be subtraction in a vital area that still needs addition -- an add of another DE to the roster is really what is needed to maybe reduce the number of snaps JPP and Vernon play -- you don't want to lose JPP and rely on a lesser player to fill his role --- defense becomes less dominant
Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -
Umm, no, that would be incorrect.
Let's say that the Giants and JPP agree to a bonus structure of $30M -which is the number from my post (Vernon get $27M BTW).
Let's also assume that the Giants guarantee the base salary in years 1 and 2. Let's say the Giants agree to give JPP a base salary of $3M in year 1, $10M in year 2, and $15M in year 3- with $5M guaranteed.
Then year 4 is $18M and year 5 is $20M. That would be a 5 year $91M deal.
Thus, yes, that is MORE than what Vernon got.
Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE.
Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen?
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..can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized.
the only thing is doc -- the Giants were 11-5 because of the Defense -- you take away one of the dominant defensive players -- and whether you like him or not -- JPP impacts the Run Defense (stops, penetration, chasing down)), the Pass Defense (sacks, hurries, pressure, blocked passes), and special teams (blocked FGs) - the defense takes a hit and is not as dominant a force in making key stops.
The Giants don't have enough impact Pass rushers with JPP on the roster -- losing him will be subtraction in a vital area that still needs addition -- an add of another DE to the roster is really what is needed to maybe reduce the number of snaps JPP and Vernon play -- you don't want to lose JPP and rely on a lesser player to fill his role --- defense becomes less dominant
Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -
gidie, I hear you as always, but there's no guarantee or possibly even a reasonable assumption that the D will continue to bail out the O..They won't have to if we fix the O as we did the D..
I agree with gidie that you don't want to weaken a strength, but I also don't want to double down on overpaying at the defensive end position. Also consider that paying JPP increases the likelihood that Hankins walks and/or DRC is released.
Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE.
Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen?
Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others
Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -
But based on this past year, we know the mix we have doesn't work...right? So don't they need to reallocate the resources somewhat.
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ask Jamie Collins. And Ty Law. And Richard Seymour.
Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE.
Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen?
ya' think?
I always thought. I'm not in the "Spags is a genius" camp.
As posted above, the Giants hold the cards. For one more year.
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion with the needs of our OL. I have made my position known that JPP should be resigned. And he should get the market rate. He doesn't "owe" the Giants anything stemming from the fireworks incident. He returned with a bloody club. Came back and took less money that was on the table from the Cards in a prove it deal. He has proven that he is a top DE in the league. The Giants should own up to their end of the bargain. If they are not willing to pay him the market rate, then let him move on. The FT will hinder us in being able to shore up the OL. Just for round numbers say we have $30mil in cap space after cuts. Tagging JPP will eat up $17mil, leaving us with $13mil. How do you propose that we sign 2 FA OL with $13 mil?
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OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?
Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others
This is my thing though, I dont want to lose JPP for a guard. The giants need tackles. If we had to lose him to sign a top tier tackle that's fine but i'm not doing it for a guard.
As posted above, the Giants hold the cards. For one more year.
But, as Diver_Down points out, if he resents the tag, he can hold out until after July 15th at which point you can't get a contract done with him. Meanwhile, we can't use that 17 mil already allocated for the FT designation to bring in much needed help which won't be inexpensive.
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OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?
Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others
And that is good starting point. If you are thinking we need a LT, the best available LT without an injury history is Whitworth. A probowl LT that plays 16 games a season won't come at a discount. He'll get 8-9mil/year. We won't give him a long-term contract as he will only serve as a stopgap so we won't be able to spread out a signing bonus.
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In comment 13338111 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?
Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others
This is my thing though, I dont want to lose JPP for a guard. The giants need tackles. If we had to lose him to sign a top tier tackle that's fine but i'm not doing it for a guard.
G, TE, bigger WR, whoever. A 17 million FT severely eats into available funds to get the O at least back to functional..Either sign him to an amortizable contract (regardless of the entire, mostly meaningless amount announced to the media as only SB and guaranteed money is important with such announcements, imv)..Our O, without herculean help again by our D will bring us down. A lot, imv
AND
2) there is not likely a DE we can draft in Rounds 1 that we can reasonably predict to give a good amount of snaps to in 2017
If the above factors can indeed be met, then I think it is kind of foolhardy to give JPP a big market contract. It ties too much money into only the D-line; it gives it to a injury-prone guy that is not getting any better over this contract; and it clearly dampens $ resources to grab better Offensive players.
Just think how far ahead we would be if we had simply given him what he wanted 2 years ago.
you either want him long term or you don't. 2 years ago, we weren't sure. If we're still not sure, don't give him 17 mil to prove he's worth it and then try to sign him long term next year. all you do is massively increase the guaranteed he's going to get (the franchise guarantee, then the long term contract guarantee). JPP should laugh all the way to the bank on that deal. It's either pay him for long term, or say so long.
Just think how far ahead we would be if we had simply given him what he wanted 2 years ago.
you either want him long term or you don't. 2 years ago, we weren't sure. If we're still not sure, don't give him 17 mil to prove he's worth it and then try to sign him long term next year. all you do is massively increase the guaranteed he's going to get (the franchise guarantee, then the long term contract guarantee). JPP should laugh all the way to the bank on that deal. It's either pay him for long term, or say so long.
Good points. In my view though, paying him the franchise tag is not looking for him to prove anything. Its because we want the high level of DE-play for one more year since there is not better alternatives with the money.
JPP is not worth it....in big games, where were the sacks last season? In the Wash and Cleveland games...add in the uncertainty that he can stay on the field, you have to think twice over matching an offer someone else would make.....
The Giants had 56 million in cap space last year and made HUGE moves signing OV, Jackrabbit and Snacks.
This year they they should have around 33-35 with cuts so they will have plenty of flexibility to make moves if need be. And thats without restructuring or extending anyone..
The Giants will be able to make moves
JPP is not worth it....in big games, where were the sacks last season? In the Wash and Cleveland games...add in the uncertainty that he can stay on the field, you have to think twice over matching an offer someone else would make.....
Pugh's option is included in the cap figure. It's almost $24 million with Pugh's $8 mil calculated in.
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In comment 13337636 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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considering the number of plays he's made against them over the years and the fact that they desperately need a pass rush.
Dallas can afford him?
They're not going to let Tony Romo's contract just sit around on the bench while they're in a winning window.I have no idea what their cap is, but they're not letting $18-20m go to waste as a backup QB.
The Giants had 56 million in cap space last year and made HUGE moves signing OV, Jackrabbit and Snacks.
This year they they should have around 33-35 with cuts so they will have plenty of flexibility to make moves if need be. And thats without restructuring or extending anyone..
The Giants will be able to make moves
33-35 less JPP's non-amortizable, 17 mil
The Giants can (most likely will) franchise him if they get the sense their offer is not going to be accepted before he hits the open market where they will have no shot.
I'm sure the offer will be more than fair, just not shooting for the moon OV contract.
Instead, the Giants can place the tag on him, I'm sure he'll complain for a couple months but you can guarantee yourself he'll take the 15 million per year and 35 million or so they are guaranteeing by July 15th after what he's been through and it will all be forgotten by training camp.
The tag is the Giants leverage to get him to offer a very fair deal he wouldn't accept with the open market waiting.
The Giants are not letting him walk. Its goes against any type of roster building they've done over the past 20 years. Young, homegrown, defensive end. Not happening.
The Giants will have plenty of flexibility to get what they need to get done if we need to use that $17 million placeholder and then will get the relief when he finally signs the long term deal.
This isn't rocket science.
The Giants will have plenty of flexibility to get what they need to get done if we need to use that $17 million placeholder and then will get the relief when he finally signs the long term deal.
This isn't rocket science.
Again, BW (unless I'm not understanding your posts), having a placeholder that could tie up the money you use to obtain key FAs, doesn't seem productive to me. If a deal can't be worked out before the July 15th date to do so, you've tied up 17 mil out of a possible 35 mil cap availability. How is that a positive thing?
TBD at the start of the new league year, so after the super bowl.
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the $17 million is a placeholder before he ultimately accepts whatever we are offering. The Giants goal isn't to get him on a one year prove it deal. They saw what they needed to see and want to get him locked up long term where they also get cap relief spread out.
The Giants will have plenty of flexibility to get what they need to get done if we need to use that $17 million placeholder and then will get the relief when he finally signs the long term deal.
This isn't rocket science.
Again, BW (unless I'm not understanding your posts), having a placeholder that could tie up the money you use to obtain key FAs, doesn't seem productive to me. If a deal can't be worked out before the July 15th date to do so, you've tied up 17 mil out of a possible 35 mil cap availability. How is that a positive thing?
As you know, cap space is fluid. We don't know if 35 million is the number yet. My guess is it will be more but regardless.
Up until July 15th, the Giants will not spend close to every penny of the $35 million. They will easily save 7 million or so for in season injuries/contracts/carry over/etc.
For some reason if the placeholder is used on JPP and they went closer to the cap than they normally would by July 15th to sign free agents, they know they will have money coming due when he inevitably signs the long term deal (deadlines spur action).
Very important is the Top 51 players only count towards the cap during the offesason so when it was time for 53 players/IR/practice squad to hit the cap, the Giants would have JPP's now free money.
The cap is fluid and easily maneuvered around and that isn't even counting simple restructures they have in their back pocket they can make to players they know will be on the roster 3 plus years (Jenkins, Snacks, OV) where pushing money down the road won't hurt them.
Hankins is a nice player but if we were the Patriots he probably would not be returning. I would try to sign him, but would not be surprised if the market is too rich for Reese.
Saying the FT has no downside is just some of you obsessing about the salary cap. The Giants are in great shape cap wise. But they backed up the brinks truck last year. I have a hard time believing they will eat up a large chunk of offseason money for a one year rental. Yes you would be staving off any long term financial burdens but really you're doing far more damage to the present. If you sign JPP long term you could spread out the cap hit which allows for more spending today.
If you sign the guy long term you're holding your breath and praying for good health. If you let JPP walk you're holding your breath and praying that his long term replacement, coming via the draft, turns out to be viable. Either way, you're praying. Either decision could come back to haunt us. The safe route is FT and then you compromise this very off-season. An off-season as critical to this team's title aspirations as any off-season in NYG history.
That was to BW
If you sign the guy long term you're holding your breath and praying for good health. If you let JPP walk you're holding your breath and praying that his long term replacement, coming via the draft, turns out to be viable. Either way, you're praying. Either decision could come back to haunt us. The safe route is FT and then you compromise this very off-season. An off-season as critical to this team's title aspirations as any off-season in NYG history.
You have a lot more leeway if you don't sign the guy. Sign JPP to what he wants and now they are married to him for a while.
If you sign the guy long term you're holding your breath and praying for good health. If you let JPP walk you're holding your breath and praying that his long term replacement, coming via the draft, turns out to be viable. Either way, you're praying. Either decision could come back to haunt us. The safe route is FT and then you compromise this very off-season. An off-season as critical to this team's title aspirations as any off-season in NYG history.
Except, as I understand it, if he fizzles out after the big contract, at least the cap hit because of amortization, might not be as hard to take as opposed to a 17 mil hard hit if his one year sucks?
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I don't think there's any right or wrong answer here but a FT really kind of sucks.
If you sign the guy long term you're holding your breath and praying for good health. If you let JPP walk you're holding your breath and praying that his long term replacement, coming via the draft, turns out to be viable. Either way, you're praying. Either decision could come back to haunt us. The safe route is FT and then you compromise this very off-season. An off-season as critical to this team's title aspirations as any off-season in NYG history.
You have a lot more leeway if you don't sign the guy. Sign JPP to what he wants and now they are married to him for a while.
I am not giving him what he wants. He's not the clean UFA that Vernon was. Sorry JPP but you're not. You're every bit the player Vernon is maybe even more but you're not as clean. I'd offer him a nice contract but no way am I giving him 40-50 mil in guarantees. He's got more mileage on him and a challenging injury situation with the back and sports hernia. Not a terrifying injury history, but they exist.
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I don't think there's any right or wrong answer here but a FT really kind of sucks.
If you sign the guy long term you're holding your breath and praying for good health. If you let JPP walk you're holding your breath and praying that his long term replacement, coming via the draft, turns out to be viable. Either way, you're praying. Either decision could come back to haunt us. The safe route is FT and then you compromise this very off-season. An off-season as critical to this team's title aspirations as any off-season in NYG history.
You have a lot more leeway if you don't sign the guy. Sign JPP to what he wants and now they are married to him for a while.
This. This is exactly why Belichick lets big ticket guys walk, or trades them first (Brady excepted. But even Brady signs team friendly deals).
Yea this is true. You're still eating a shit load of money either way.
This is exactly why Belichick lets big ticket guys walk, or trades them first (Brady excepted. But even Brady signs team friendly deals).
what is the relevance of "why Belichick lets big ticket guys walk" ?
There is no other coach that can coach or operate a team the way Belichick does -- even his own coaches fail at it when they take their shot at head coach -- I have issues with folks sying anyone should be doing things because that's the way Belichick does it --
the Giants need to do things based on their conviction and their team theories - they need to be themselves -- and by the way -- the Giants beat Belichick twice in the Superbowl using non-Belichickian techniques - there is more than one way to skin a cat -- to thyne own self be true
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what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well?
That was to BW
Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation.
These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic.
I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches.
Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready.
Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers.
Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk.
Bringing up what the Pats do every time doesn't always apply to what the Giants should do.
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In comment 13338352 Big Blue '56 said:
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what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well?
That was to BW
Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation.
These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic.
I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches.
Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready.
Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers.
Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk.
No way of really knowing what they think of and how they value Hankins. When you mentioned about Hankins' possible low market, it brought to mind Ahmad Bradshaw. There was a lot of concern about what he would corner on the market. Many here, myself included, felt he would not be affordable for us given how tight we were against the cap. Lo and behold there proved to be little if any market for him and I think we signed him for something like 20 mil for 4(?) years..I was really stunned that we were able to sign him..
So, who ever really knows the market for most of these players?
Bringing up what the Pats do every time doesn't always apply to what the Giants should do.
I would agree with this. They didn't let a still healthy and viable Seymour walk until he was what, 32? Same with Wilfork, they didn't re-sign him until he was even okder than Seymour? I would agree they seem to know WHEN to let vets go, which is something we haven't been all that good at, but unless a player was deemed to be trouble, they had no hesitancy in re-signing them unless there was a competent replacement
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In comment 13338373 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 13338352 Big Blue '56 said:
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what if they can't work out a long term deal? Too, what if we want to sign what we deem to be premium FAs and we need a lot of upfront money as part of the deals with said FAs? These are honest questions because I really want to learn, not just argue "to win." You and many others have a very good to terrific grasp of the cap, so I'd love to understand how we can pull off what we need to do on O, for example. And by your reasoning, can we retain Hankins as well?
That was to BW
Totally not taking it as a arugement, solid conversation.
These are just my opinons of course, but just from following the league long enough, one I think thats very realistic.
I dont think JPP plays under the Franchise Tag not because he said he wont, but, because the Giants offer will be very fair and I can't see him passing on the contract he's been waiting for and risking injury over a couple million more guaranteed he could of got on the open market (that's all that matters, the annual average salary value is all smoke and mirrors). Outside of quarterbacks, not many players risk that. We see it ever year and his circumstances are even more unique with what he's been through and playing in the trenches.
Second, as they do ever year, the Giants will have a very precise free agent plan. They earmark their target, what it will cost to get them and execute right away. Saw it last year and of course in years past with Baas, Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc. If they have to franchise JPP, they will have this factored in and have every contingency ready.
Lastly, I'm not saying this is my preference but if they do what I said above with JPP, there is no way Hankins is back unless his market isn't what he thought it was. We've seen the history with the Giants letting the number two defensive tackle go when market dictated so while I like him as player and part of a solid defensive line, Snacks is the man here and while the next player won't be as good as Hankins, the pass rusher (JPP) will come out out on top. I can't see them sinking over $17 million or so a year on two run stoppers.
Only way Hankins is back is if his market is dry or for some reason they let JPP walk.
No way of really knowing what they think of and how they value Hankins. When you mentioned about Hankins' possible low market, it brought to mind Ahmad Bradshaw. There was a lot of concern about what he would corner on the market. Many here, myself included, felt he would not be affordable for us given how tight we were against the cap. Lo and behold there proved to be little if any market for him and I think we signed him for something like 20 mil for 4(?) years..I was really stunned that we were able to sign him..
So, who ever really knows the market for most of these players?
I think they probably value Hankins, but we've also seen how they value that certain position. If Hankins was more of a pure pass rusher 3 technique, I wonder if their philosophy would slightly be altered this time around but with his main value as a run stopper, and with NYG already committing top dollar to the best run stopper in the league it looks like a redundant use of resources- of course, if he gets what he's probably looking for.
The Giants don't see pass rushers as redundant.
Good point on Bradshaw, but as we've seen over the years, the NFL does not pay free agent running backs in the middle of their careers. I fear a team like the Browns (Hankins went to school at OSU and they were so bad against the run) could pony up for him.
2016: $13m
2017: $16m
2018: $17m
2019: $19.5m
2020: $19.5
I guess the real question is, can we really afford $13m for JPP next year.
The salary cap will increase over the next few years, so it might be an option. It could limit our ability to address other moves.
You should beat the bad teams easy if your good team. But we struggled against the Bears and Browns. If not for JPP playing well against these so called bad teams, we might not have made the playoffs.
It would be great if he played better vs the so called better teams too, but the better teams are able to game plan for him better than lesser teams.
Still I agree if he wants big dollars you would want a player that is a more of a lock to do more. And without an OSI or a Tuck, he has been around the ball without the impact a fan would like to see. His efforts I am sure helped other be able to make plays too.
The question I am not able to answer is it enough?
We have glaring needs does minus a JPP help us fill more gaps or holes to make up for his absence to move to the next level.
With the lack of play makers on offense, and not being able to deal with two deep safeties it amazing we lasted as long as we did.
Still think we missed a shot at the Superbowl by not closing out GB in the first half as we had Dallas number and the Falcon game could have been one for the ages.
In any event tough choices are ahead, going to be interesting. Can easily see the Giants tag JPP. His off the field antics have cost him PR wise in the big apple media with a big contact his only real chance at a payday.
Sure everyone likes a comeback, but can easily see TC make a play for him. Do not think the Giants are going to outside the box for him dollar wise with so many holes. Especially how he played a game with the front office in the past reaching out to him like only a handful of teams do.
Forgiven, but not forgotten. JPP already has his ring, now wants his payday.
Tough to let talented guys like JPP walk, but I think I can get over letting a guy that has had a bad back, a reconstructed hand and now a hernia/groin issue go find his big payday elsewhere.
Hopefully Giants don't waste it on a 35-year old Offensive Tackle...but that's where I am at.
Meanwhile the Pats trade their top defensive player and chandler jones and keep rolling.
You cannot keep 'em all. The rules are stacked against it, and trying to do so gets you in a cap nightmare. It's not like this team doesn't have needs.
The Giants are not letting him walk. Its goes against any type of roster building they've done over the past 20 years. Young, homegrown, defensive end. Not happening.
Going into a season with potentially two defensive ends taking up $30+ million in cap cost goes against any type of roster building they've done too.
In 2016, the Giants allocated $70m of their cap to 31 players on defense
This respect by the Giants make it JPP's best decision to stay where he is known. If he leaves for another team for a huge contract, he will find that if he gets off to a slow start, or starts missing games with injuries, they will have little patience with him.
If fans don't appreciate the value of JPP to make big, game-changing plays, I'm not going to convince them.
Consider this story that Parcell's tells: In 1984 the NFL had a USFL dispersion draft, so teams could put their claims in early for players in that league if they became available individually or collectively (if the league went bust).
The Giants had the third pick and Parcells lobbied Young hard to select Reggie White. Young instead went to the position of need, the OL, and picked Gary Zimmerman, who then refused to play for the Giants. We all know where Reggie White ended up. Canton.
This respect by the Giants make it JPP's best decision to stay where he is known. If he leaves for another team for a huge contract, he will find that if he gets off to a slow start, or starts missing games with injuries, they will have little patience with him.
If fans don't appreciate the value of JPP to make big, game-changing plays, I'm not going to convince them.
Consider this story that Parcell's tells: In 1984 the NFL had a USFL dispersion draft, so teams could put their claims in early for players in that league if they became available individually or collectively (if the league went bust).
The Giants had the third pick and Parcells lobbied Young hard to select Reggie White. Young instead went to the position of need, the OL, and picked Gary Zimmerman, who then refused to play for the Giants. We all know where Reggie White ended up. Canton.
So did Gary Zimmerman
but he got injured, missed the Dallas, Skins and Packers playoff game. One injury has nothing to do with the other yet he didn't prove he could stay healthy.
Said it before and I'll post it again, franchise tag for 2017/18 and he walks in 2018/19.
Yes, the USFL had some pretty good players.
I don't think that very many would take Zimmerman over White.
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
No. You don't think so.
According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850.
I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection.
5 or 6 games? Descending player?
Apparently you don't watch football.
I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple.
I'd expect the Giants will want a 4 year deal. If that 5th year is a deal breaker for either side this doesn't get done.
No. You don't think so.
According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850.
I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection.
This has to be close to the dumbest fucking ideas. Because Reese has fucked up so many drafts, Eli should take less money than what is in his contract? If anything, he deserves hazard pay and it should be deducted from Reese's check.
The messy one is going to be OBJ. He is finally eligible for an extension and I expect he will be demanding it. And who could blame him? And if he wasn't such a head case, the Giants would gladly make him the highest paid WR in the game. But head case or not, he is the most valuable player on the team outside of Eli and his salary is $1.8M next season. Who do you think would be more willing to miss game checks, JPP on the franchise tag or OBJ on his rookie contract?
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.
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If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words.
It won't necessarily get messy, both sides understand it's a business decision, nothing personal. And if it does get messy, so be it. You don't just give away an asset like JPP for free. I'll go back to my "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you don't have room for it in the garage" and add to that, "you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because you're too lazy to put an ad in the paper and haggle over price." If worse comes to worst, you trade him. But I don't think worse will come to worst. I think JPP signs a team friendly $80M five year deal with $24-$28M guaranteed (with $40-$45M in total compensation over the first three years).
The messy one is going to be OBJ. He is finally eligible for an extension and I expect he will be demanding it. And who could blame him? And if he wasn't such a head case, the Giants would gladly make him the highest paid WR in the game. But head case or not, he is the most valuable player on the team outside of Eli and his salary is $1.8M next season. Who do you think would be more willing to miss game checks, JPP on the franchise tag or OBJ on his rookie contract?
Agree 100% with Milton here. This is business, and it's not like 17M is chump change. He's going to evaluate what possibilities exist based on offers he gets elsewhere, and determine whether the risk of playing out the year on the tag warrants the extra money.
On OBJ, I don't think it's going to be that complicated either, they're going to back up the brinks truck with Eli nearing retirement. I don't think his antics will prevent that.
ASAP you sign him long term when you monetarily can. End of story..
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maybe he'll take a pay cut so that we can afford to get him a better supporting cast.
No. You don't think so.
According to NFL.com, Eli was the 8th highest paid QB in 2016, earning $21 million. Rodgers earned only a million more at $22 and Ben $21,850.
I think Eli could afford to give some back, for his own protection.
This has to be close to the dumbest fucking ideas. Because Reese has fucked up so many drafts, Eli should take less money than what is in his contract? If anything, he deserves hazard pay and it should be deducted from Reese's check.
Nothing like doubling double on dumb fucking ideas.
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So did Gary Zimmerman.
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.
That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.
I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple.
It got messy the day he blew off part of his hand. It became questionable when he torn his groin or suffered a hernia which caused him to miss the Dallas, Redskins and Packers game. By the way, the Giants shut down both Dallas and the Redskins without him. They also stopped the Packers for the most part of one half.
I think Giants are better off with JPP and the CBA included the option to franchise him. This is business and nobody is going to cry if a guy gets pissy b/c he doesn't want to sign a one year deal in the $17-18 million dollar range when he's already made enough to retire on.
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In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
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So did Gary Zimmerman.
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.
That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.
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In comment 13338774 section125 said:
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In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
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So did Gary Zimmerman.
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.
That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.
The Giants traded Zimmerman to the Vikings for two 2nd round picks which they used on Mark Collins and Greg Lasker. The Giants had four 2nd round picks that year, the other two were used on Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Not bad!
Well, people bring this up a lot yet let's remember a few things.
Reggie White might be the best DE ever. A force like that many have the difference in 85, 88 and 89.
Yes, the Giants received some draft choices yet remember, if the Giants had Reggie White they wouldn't have drafted Eric Dorsey at #1 and they could have held onto Jim Burt who played for years instead of drafting Erik Howard. With their own #1 and #2 they still could have drafted Pepper and Collins (or swapped in Howard).
IMO, adding another force like Taylor may have resulted in more championships b/c several of the other players mentioned could have still be drafted and some retained.
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The Giants are not letting him walk. Its goes against any type of roster building they've done over the past 20 years. Young, homegrown, defensive end. Not happening.
Going into a season with potentially two defensive ends taking up $30+ million in cap cost goes against any type of roster building they've done too.
In 2016, the Giants allocated $70m of their cap to 31 players on defense
Well JPP took up $10 million of that number since he only had a one year deal. His first year number would be much lower than that if they did work out a long term deal so not seeing your point.
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If we tag him it is going to get very messy, mark my words. I don't think the Giants want that Ness again, and the bad blood that comes with it.
I think the Giants try to work out a contract if they can, if not someone inks him day 1 of FA. Simple.
It got messy the day he blew off part of his hand. It became questionable when he torn his groin or suffered a hernia which caused him to miss the Dallas, Redskins and Packers game. By the way, the Giants shut down both Dallas and the Redskins without him. They also stopped the Packers for the most part of one half.
I think Giants are better off with JPP and the CBA included the option to franchise him. This is business and nobody is going to cry if a guy gets pissy b/c he doesn't want to sign a one year deal in the $17-18 million dollar range when he's already made enough to retire on.
...and it will tie our hands in free agency to boot.
We have cap space to be flexible, but $17 million for one year makes us a lot less flexible. He doesn't want that, and the Giants don't want that.
If they franchise him it would be a farce. They would have to either work out a long term deal with a now disgruntled player or rescind the tag. They aren't paying him the franchise tender. How does this help?
The Giants either want JPP or they don't. They will pay him or they won't. I just don't see them dicking around with the tag again after the shitshow last time.
The idea that we are going to get huge compensation for him is a fanboy fantasy. If we franchise him, any potential suitor will spend their money elsewhere, or wait for the shit to hit the fan.
You are living in la-la land if you think we are going to franchise and trade him...There is a reason that never happens.
A one year franchise tag doesn't prevent flexibility b/c other FA signed have their bonus dollars against the cap allocated towards another year of necessary. JPP along on one year frees up approx $17 million next year.
It's pretty easy
If you can Franchise JPP for 17 million and get him for one more year or trade him for compensation of any amount how is that worse than losing him for no compensation or signing him to a deal that averages 17+ million a year?
I'm beating a dead horse but most fans seem completely ignorant of the going rate for top talent. The Giants set the market with Vernon. The next closest comparison I can think of to JPP is Calais Campbell who is 3 years older than JPP. Campbell made 15+ million this year and 14+ million last year. JPP is going to make huge money and there is no way to stop it. The question is whether he makes the Giants a better team than the free agents the Giants could sign with that money.
I don't see the logic in refusing to "overpay" for JPP by using that money to overpay for free agents that may or may not pan out or even be worth it. The Giants have 2 Top DEs right now with nothing behind them, removing 1 doesn't improve the team. But if that is how you really feel I don't understand the huge risk with attempting to get something of value for losing a top player in the NFL.
A one year franchise tag doesn't prevent flexibility b/c other FA signed have their bonus dollars against the cap allocated towards another year of necessary. JPP along on one year frees up approx $17 million next year.
It's pretty easy
You're making a huge assumption that a one year FT tag that pays JPP 17 MILLION in guaranteed loot for ONE year doesn't impact their spending this off-season.
Ill say it again...for the 10th time...forget the cap. Think about the owners and the money they want to spend every year. This isn't cap dollars as much as it's MARA'S dollars. They just spent 100 million in guaranteed money last off-season. Do you really think the Mara's or any owner for that matter is willing to spend 100 million in one off-season then go out and spend another 60 million in cash the very next year?
It's not about the cap all the time. It's about dollars and cents. If you tag JPP you compromise this off-season in a big big way. There's no way to argue against that.
Are you then going to slice into that 38 million and reduce that to 20 and only have one year of JPP to show for it? Think about that for a second.
If you sign JPP long term it will without question help the Giants spend more money today as they can spread out the cap hit to JPP. IT's not as simple as saying ahhh fuck it let's just tag JPP and move on in 2018. You're paying a king's ransom for one lousy season. 17 million is a lot of loot. For one year? I hate it.
You're responding to your delusion of how the cap works b/c you demonstrate you don't understand it. Multiple posters have posted what I have and it's exactly what teams exercised easily for years. Especially under the new CBA where draft picks cost little for years. Why do think so much cap space is available throughout the league? It's not b/c they're frugal.
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In comment 13338774 section125 said:
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In comment 13338731 SB 42 and 46 and ? said:
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So did Gary Zimmerman.
I don't remember why Zimmerman turned down New York.
He simply did not want to be in New York - did not like the New York area. It wasn't anything other than that, IIRC.
That's exactly right. He said he didn't want to play in NY before the draft, GY took it as pre-draft bluster but Zimmerman was deadly serious and sat out the '85 season.
The Giants traded Zimmerman to the Vikings for two 2nd round picks which they used on Mark Collins and Greg Lasker. The Giants had four 2nd round picks that year, the other two were used on Erik Howard and Pepper Johnson. Not bad!
GY and Parcells loved drafting DEFENSE. Good stuff.
His performance has been fine if not excellent. It's the injury history. Watch other DEs up close for a full year or more and then watch JPP. He's every bit the player that every single DE is other than Watt. And Watt just missed the entire season with an injury that JPP played through.
Some of you say things that make me wonder if you're just trolling.
You're responding to your delusion of how the cap works b/c you demonstrate you don't understand it. Multiple posters have posted what I have and it's exactly what teams exercised easily for years. Especially under the new CBA where draft picks cost little for years. Why do think so much cap space is available throughout the league? It's not b/c they're frugal.
What on earth are you talking about? I said in many ways it's more about upfront money than anything else. And I was trying to convey that the cap in many ways is a mystery to us all because of all the methods teams use to circumvent it. This is just a fact.
It's all about the guaranteed money. Cash. The owners only have so much CASH on hand to spend every off-season. The cap is one thing, the upfront money that an owner has it his disposal is something else entirely. IF you don't agree I don't know what to tell you. Cash is king. I never said frugal or cheap I said teams like the Giants will only have so much upfront cash to spend every year.
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It's all about the guaranteed money. Cash. The owners only have so much CASH on hand to spend every off-season.
Guaranteed money and signing bonus (cash) are two different things. Owners can guarantee future salary and there are also deferred payments (which is what Plaxico sued the Giants over after they refused him the money after he shot himself...and Plaxico won). On top of that, the Maras may not be billionaires, but the Tischs so cash flow and liquidity are not an issue. There are maybe a handful of teams where cash flow may be an issue, but the Giants aren't one of them.
Milton this is just not true. The Mara's even acknowledged that cash flow was in fact an issue for a time after they built the new stadium. I don't know where I heard it, but I definitely heard it.
It's always about the money.
So basically you're incapable of learning anything and discredit everything besides your delusion of reality (in this case, your perception Mara's hard cash is the same as the cap). Great, job.