JPP looking for "At Least" Vernon money per Ralph

In comment 13337754 Jimmy Googs said:

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He is a valuable player but there is no way we can have two Vernon contracts on the DLine. Nor would I franchise tag him. Lets keep getting younger, healthier and better...

I agree. I think JPP is getting 17.5 avg salary. We can't afford him. And in some ways we've evolved from him. Yes he's the best talent on the line but he's also the most fragile. And his window is the most narrow. Hope Charlton likes blue, because I think Taco is going to be playing alongside Snacks. Let's the Daily News headlines begin.

Yes it was elite with him, but the drop off really wasn't worth paying another OV contract for. See ya JPP, you deserve a big pay day. Hope you win your suit against shefter to, you were a great Giant and I'll always be grateful for giving it your all. I hope we can net something from him, but it is what it is.

This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him.

that he part of this conversation?

He is okay but come on...

In comment 13337774 beatrixkiddo said:

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Yes it was elite with him, but the drop off really wasn't worth paying another OV contract for. See ya JPP, you deserve a big pay day. Hope you win your suit against shefter to, you were a great Giant and I'll always be grateful for giving it your all. I hope we can net something from him, but it is what it is. This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him.

was it fine.. really ?? They had trouble pressuring the QB without blitzing.. they dont have any other quality DE's outside of OV.. and please dont give me a line about Okwara who played ONE decent game and was invisible the rest of the way..

They can ill afford to walk away from a DE who is still young and in his prime.. They have to try and get something done..

In comment 13337776 blueblood said:

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In comment 13337774 beatrixkiddo said: Quote: Yes it was elite with him, but the drop off really wasn't worth paying another OV contract for. See ya JPP, you deserve a big pay day. Hope you win your suit against shefter to, you were a great Giant and I'll always be grateful for giving it your all. I hope we can net something from him, but it is what it is. This team will be better off spending that $ on fixing a broken offense and resigning Hankins and Kennan Robinson to a contract. I think hank needs to shed some weight this off season, I think he will play better than he did this year which wasn't bad if he drops a few pounds. Robinson has a key roll as a lb and I like him. was it fine.. really ?? They had trouble pressuring the QB without blitzing.. they dont have any other quality DE's outside of OV.. and please dont give me a line about Okwara who played ONE decent game and was invisible the rest of the way.. They can ill afford to walk away from a DE who is still young and in his prime.. They have to try and get something done..

You're saying he played one fine game because of the sack, but it was clear that Okwara showed more promise than any DE draft pick of the last 4 years, as an UDFA. There was a clear drop off when Wynn or OO was in there. Okwara has the right kind of athleticism to be a 3 down DE for us. Not that we can't improve the position, but to crapfest on Okwara because he didn't have a sack in each game is overly simplifying what he did or should do.

Regardless, Okwara being average is bearable if we can retain Hanks, Robinson, and sign a vet OLT. JPP could crush any hopes of an offensive rebuild if he commands the money he claims he expects.

deserves more. Hes a better player.

he will command in an open market because we clearly need to add pieces to the offense this offseason.

But I would think DE has to be a draft priority with the #1 or #2 pick if we lose him. Which I am okay with because we can't have two Vernon contracts on this line.

In comment 13337781 Jimmy Googs said:

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he will command in an open market because we clearly need to add pieces to the offense this offseason. But I would think DE has to be a draft priority with the #1 or #2 pick if we lose him. Which I am okay with because we can't have two Vernon contracts on this line.

100%

If it were MLB or NBA it'd be a no brainer re-sign. We need a OLT though.

Then draft a pass rusher in the first round.

Three problems solved for the price of one.

Viola!

and I'm looking for "At Least" 2 hours naked in a hot tub with Kate Upton tonight; neither is going to happen.

he is an asset that we can franchise. We'd be insane not to franchise him. We then have negotiating leverage as it's unlikely he'll want to play under a one year deal again. If not that's a fine away to pay him IMO. He clearly wants that long term deal and will play hard for it, or if he gets injured again you can try to get him for more of a bargain.

There are still questions about his motivation / character. Personally I say franchise him and trade him for a 1 mid to late one or swap 1st rounders with one of the teams picking high. (maybe you can grab another 3rd too)

Of the franchise tag (all I now, correct me if I'm wrong) is that this coming year it will cost at least $17M to do that (as he would qualify to be paid equal to or more that the four highest paid players at his position).

If we do franchise him (and he refuses to sign the tag, he sits home a loses money, but we don't have any trade value for him) - Is that correct ?

Unfortunately, JPP's situation is very unique. Recall, that before he hurt himself, he was ready (at the prodding of his agent Eugene Parker) to take a hard stand against signing the 2016 franchise tag. Then he blew his fingers off, and he lost his negotiation leverage.

Subsequently he signed a one year "prove it" contract, which he did, amazingly. Given all the hell he's gone through, I really doubt if you'll see him back down. If he does come back, (not getting close to what he wants) he'll be very pissed off. The last thing we want in the locker room is another Albert Haynesworth.

I understand that we're about $25M under the cap, if we give him that $17M (or more that he wants), forget about trying to fix the offense (which has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

I wish we COULD keep him, but I just don't see how. We saw the offense slide backwards this year; we just can't let it slide over the cliff, next year.

In comment 13337672 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 13337663 David in LA said: Quote: of course the agent will ask for the moon. Tag him and we have leverage. If someone like Jacksonville wants him, they can give us their premium draft pick as compensation. How do you know Jax will have a premium pick next year? Any draft pick compensation is given in the following year. Tag him and we do have leverage while it eats into our available cap by 17 mil. He is not going to sign the tag. He might force the Giants hand to pull the tag and make him a free agent. Of course the FA OL that can help us will be gone, but we can always count on Newhouse and Jerry to be available.

I personally know for a fact that Jax will pick in the top 13 next year.

I'll bet cash on that right now.

I'd give it to him in a heartbeat. Unfortunately so will about a dozen other teams.

In comment 13337695 B in ALB said:

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On the OL (two are ideal) and maybe a WR to replace Cruz. Unless he'll sign the tag, which is a sticking point. Wouldn't mind seeing them heavily invest in the OL as Eli winds down his career. Defense played well without JPP other than one half of football.

This.

It's time they allocate resources to the biggest position of need and, that is the OL. JPP's career as a Giant was great, but it shouldn't define their future. Should he find a better contract elsewhere, superb. I wish him well.

Ideally we want JPP back if at all practical.

If JPP is looking at $85m/5years, that won't likely happen here and JPP has already gone on the record that he won't sign a one year deal.

If we can't sign JPP to an extension, I do think we franchise him initially. The ball is then then in his court as to whether he takes a lesser deal here or we can trade him. I could see us getting a second round pick from a team like Cleveland or Jacksonville (which is better than any comp pick in 2018)

As far as replacing JPP, there are options in the draft. I could also see us looking at someone like Nick Perry or Jabaal Sheard in free agency.

They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency.
p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.

In comment 13337812 Milton said:

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They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency. p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it.

What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason?

In comment 13337814 adamg said:

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In comment 13337812 Milton said: Quote: They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency. p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it. What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason?

It's not that difficult, the first year of a new contract is always the cheapest against the cap. The key is signing guys who actually make a difference. Unless you're in cap hell (which the Giants aren't), you can find room for impact players. No matter how much you spend, it's always money well spent if the guy is making an impact. The road to cap hell is paved with non-impact players getting paid impact player money, not overpaying for impact players. As long as JPP, Vernon, Snacks, Jenkins, Eli, etc, are on the field making plays, the Giants cap will remain in good health.

The only reason not to pay JPP is if you're worried about his ability to stay on the field. As long as he is on the field making plays, the $17M franchise tag won't matter any more than the $10M they paid him last year. The problem is getting to the playoffs and not having him (and DRC) on the field helping out against Aaron Rodgers. So that's what they have to evaluate (same with DRC's future). If the doctors and trainers believe JPP and DRC are no more likely to end the year on IR than anyone else, then pay the man.

In comment 13337822 Milton said:

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In comment 13337814 adamg said: Quote: In comment 13337812 Milton said: Quote: They have enough cap room flexibility that it won't interfere with their ability to pursue whoever they are targeting in free agency. p.s.-- If there are teams out there willing to pay him anywhere close to $85M over five years than there are teams willing to trade for him. That's the worst case scenario. But you don't give away a Rolls Royce just because it doesn't fit in your garage. You sell it. What do those numbers look like? 17 mill tag has what kind of cap hit? All of it? We have 23 mill in space with the ability to clear out another 15 maybe. How can we sign JPP and bring in vet depth, solid OL pieces, and sign our picks with room for Beckham, Kennard, et al. extensions for next offseason? It's not that difficult, the first year of a new contract is always the cheapest against the cap. The key is signing guys who actually make a difference. Unless you're in cap hell (which the Giants aren't), you can find room for impact players. No matter how much you spend, it's always money well spent if the guy is making an impact. The road to cap hell is paved with non-impact players getting paid impact player money, not overpaying for impact players. As long as JPP, Vernon, Snacks, Jenkins, Eli, etc, are on the field making plays, the Giants cap will remain in good health. The only reason not to pay JPP is if you're worried about his ability to stay on the field. As long as he is on the field making plays, the $17M franchise tag won't matter any more than the $10M they paid him last year. The problem is getting to the playoffs and not having him (and DRC) on the field helping out against Aaron Rodgers. So that's what they have to evaluate (same with DRC's future). If the doctors and trainers believe JPP and DRC are no more likely to end the year on IR than anyone else, then pay the man.

Got you. So they'd sign him to a 5 year 80 something mill. putting 10 against the cap this year? Giving them space (say the 10 goes against 30 they were able to create with cuts, leaving 20 mill more in cap) they could use to sign e.g. a top of the line OLT, even a short term vet deal to a guy like Whitworth?

In comment 13337824 adamg said:

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So they'd sign him to a 5 year 80 something mill. putting 10 against the cap this year? Giving them space (say the 10 goes against 30 they were able to create with cuts, leaving 20 mill more in cap) they could use to sign e.g. a top of the line OLT, even a short term vet deal to a guy like Whitworth?

I don't think they'll go for an older vet on a big money short term deal. That hasn't been their philosophy, but you never know. More likely in my mind is that they will target someone like Kevin Zeitler or Ricky Wagner, even though neither is a left tackle. So let's say they give Zeitler a five year $50M deal with $25M guaranteed. By splitting the signing bonus into two installments and paying him the league minimum in salary for the first year, his cap hit would be south of $5M in 2017.
Gregg Rosenthal on the top free agents of 2017 - ( New Window )

In comment 13337700 big_blue said:

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pay him. He is a bad man. I hate that fans care so much about salary - as a negative - the gm's job is to build a talented roster - who give a crap about how much he is paid

Because the salary cap makes it a very important consideration. So, insofar as it relates to the GM being able to do his job of building a talented roster, I give a crap about how much players are paid.

In comment 13337637 Giants2012 said:

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.

Can anyone think of a downside to this because I can't

I guess no one wants to mention how we were all wondering when the hell he would actually get close enough for a sack the first 6 or so games of the season. Then he had those two great games against the shitty Bears and Browns. The verdict is still out on his ability with that hand over a full season. If he doesn't want a reasonable contract, you let him go

player who doesn't sign it and becomes the talk of the offseason. I'm not a big "distraction" guy since our players and coaches are used to the NY market by now, but it's something that can definitely linger.

Giants hold all the cards though and they were pretty damn good to him during the firework fiasco so maybe that will account for something.

He's one of five best DEs in football and deserves to be paid like it.

To every team every year. It is one of the main reason that there is rarely any positive carry over from one year to the next for teams in the NFL.

In comment 13337837 UConn4523 said:

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player who doesn't sign it and becomes the talk of the offseason. I'm not a big "distraction" guy since our players and coaches are used to the NY market by now, but it's something that can definitely linger. Giants hold all the cards though and they were pretty damn good to him during the firework fiasco so maybe that will account for something.

JPP can't afford to be a distraction, he already had plenty of that. He knows the score - if they can't work out something long term, then he plays for top guaranteed dollar this season and cashes in next.

Of course the risk of injury complicates matters a bit, but the fact that he's nearing 30 and has had other health issues means it's not all cut and dry in his favor.

He's an excellent DE - if not the top guy, one of the top 3-4 without a doubt. The nonsense about being a stat compiler against bad teams is just proof that you can't rely on stats in football the way you can in other sports. Very rarely do you put a healthy JPP on the field and he disappears. He might not get sacks, but he'll get hurries, tips, tackles and everything else.

He's had some warts though, even without the fireworks incident. He's had rumors about his work ethic (when he showed up to camp overweight before he injured his back). He's had recurring back issues. He poses a decent risk of mailing it in with the next contract. I'm a big fan, and I'd give him double digit millions easily, but I don't think the long range forecast for JPP is as rosy as Vernon. Vernon was younger, healthier and on the rise. We have probably seen peak JPP, and now you have to wonder for the next contract, how close to current state and health he will remain and for how long.

If someone comes along and offers JPP $80M in guarantees I think we need to part ways. Sad, and I'd hate losing him that way, but I don't think he holds up at this level long enough to justify that.

than JPP has 2 years less wear on him has never missed a game and has a great motor. Nothing against JPP, he impressed me just to make it back, but if that's the deal he wants let someone else give it to him. You give 5 years at that $ to JPP, you'll all be crying by minimum year 3, possibly year 2 that the contract is an albatross.

Sounds more like speculation on the part of Ralph V.

The only thing JPP has said is that he doesn't want to sign a one year deal again.

It's merely speculation at this point that he is looking for Olivier Vernon money.

OV money and probably deserves it. I think he is still the better DE between the two. Yes he is about 4 years older, so at worst he has 3 premium years left and likely 4 to 5. Except for the GB playoff game the Giants defense held its own in the games after his surgeries.

JR has his work cut out for himself. Tough choice and I really want JPP back, but in a year that requires doing something positive on the oline and WR, not sure there is enough money to pay JPP what he wants. Of course there aren't any OTs worth looking at (except maybe Whitworth).

I guess signing Pugh long term will reduce his cap hit.
I also feel Hankins is worth a reasonable payday if just for continuity and he will be fairly inexpensive in most cases.

If JPP goes, it is likely DE, if in the same tier, will be the pick.

In comment 13337662 Danny Kanell said:

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I really doubt we franchise him again. If anything, we should use the franchise tag on Hankins. It would be a lot cheaper.

Papa, Dotino, Schmeelk(sp) said the same thing..I agree with them..One of their points was you get to see if Hankins is truly worth a big contract moving forward..They also said you do that and sign JPP. Problem with that is, there's no guarantee you can sign him. Agree with Diver down's take on the problems a FT of JPP brings

Then keeping DRC is a must. The strength of the D last year was its 3 CBs, particularly in times when the pass rush was struggling to get near the QB. If JPP goes we need a coral of DBs that can hold coverage longer.

too many other holes and UFAs about to require new contracts.

Now, you can question if JPP is worth $16M but Hankins is surely not worth $14M.

we really don't have many, if any, other UFAs actually -worth- new contracts besides JPP and Hank.

If that's all we do in free agency, keep those two, I am good, paired with an all offense draft.

.

In comment 13337882 Jimmy Googs said:

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Now, you can question if JPP is worth $16M but Hankins is surely not worth $14M.

This.

Franchizing Hanks and signing JPP long term sounds cute, but cap-wise that is probably the most absurd use of resources possible.

due to Mannings age, but you have to bite the bullet at some point.

You cannot get trapped into ditching a strategy just because (a list of OLs) did not play up to par.

Prior to drafting ODB I said that if we went WR as opposed to OL, we might risk two or more years of OL play that would not be good enough for how this team plays.

True. Now, was ignorant of how great Odell would be? Totally.

But we have to bite the bullet in the draft at this point, not mortgage the future knicks style with older OLers.

Jason Pierre-Paul DE 28 NYG TBD $10,000,000 UFA
Keenan Robinson ILB 27 NYG TBD $2,600,000 UFA - (maybe)
Larry Donnell TE 28 NYG TBD $1,671,000 UFA - (no)
Marshall Newhouse RT 28 NYG TBD $1,500,000 UFA - (no)
Leon Hall CB 32 NYG TBD $1,500,000 UFA - (maybe)
Mark Herzlich OLB 29 NYG TBD $1,300,000 UFA - (maybe)
William Beatty LT 31 NYG TBD $1,100,000 UFA - (no)
Zak DeOssie LS 32 NYG TBD $1,100,000 UFA - (maybe)
Johnathan Hankins DT 25 NYG TBD $1,007,672 UFA - (yes)
Robbie Gould K 35 NYG TBD $985,000 UFA - (replaceable)
Josh Johnson QB 30 NYG TBD $885,000 UFA - (no)
Bobby Rainey RB 29 NYG TBD $840,000 UFA - (no)
Kelvin Sheppard ILB 29 NYG TBD $840,000 UFA - (no)
Coty Sensabaugh CB 28 NYG TBD $760,000 UFA - (no)
Ryan Nassib QB 26 NYG TBD $653,400 UFA - (no)
Trevin Wade CB 27 NYG TBD $630,000 UFA (maybe)

I mean, one could make arguments for Hall, Herzlich and Robinson, maybe Wade, but even those guys are not core, core guys.

Now, who would you draft or hire in FA to replace Hank and JPP?

Imagine this teams 2016 record without a great defense, 0-16?

What do you guys really imagine will happen with the offense next year to account for that gap?

JPP needs to fit into the cap structure beyond 2017, and I'd be shocked if NYG paid him the $.

What would the Patriots do? They would let him go. If he hadn't blown his hand off they would have traded him two years ago.

just admit that fixing the O is going to have to be a long term project at this point, we fucked up the Eli time window there, and yet be happy that we have a great D - right now.

The Dolphins made a mistake in not franchising Vernon. The Giants will hopefully not make that mistake.

JPP might not like it, but realistically, there's nothing he can do about it. He's not going to refuse to sign the tender and sit out the season (and Giants could always tag him again the next year). He can either play on the tag for one year, or accept the multiyear extension the Giants offer him. He simply won't have the opportunity to ever hit the open market if the Giants play this right.

but until you have Sir Bill and his whole staff its apples and oranges.

seriously

Shane Vereen RB 27 NYG TBD $4,116,667 UFA (no)
J.T. Thomas OLB 28 NYG TBD $3,333,333 UFA (no)
Jonathan Casillas OLB 29 NYG TBD $2,666,667 UFA (not really)
Rashad Jennings RB 31 NYG TBD $2,500,000 UFA (not really)
Justin Pugh G 26 NYG TBD $2,086,475 UFA (yes, but not more important than JPP )
Weston Richburg C 25 NYG TBD $1,219,338 UFA (maybe, see 17 draft)
Will Johnson FB 28 NYG TBD $1,150,000 UFA (no)
Jay Bromley DT 24 NYG TBD $750,903 UFA (no)
Tavarres King WR 26 NYG TBD $645,000 UFA (yes, but cheaply)
Nat Berhe FS 25 NYG TBD $603,200 UFA (no)
Devon Kennard OLB 25 NYG TBD $591,140 UFA (expendable for JPP)

In comment 13337860 Victor in CT said:

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than JPP has 2 years less wear on him has never missed a game and has a great motor. Nothing against JPP, he impressed me just to make it back, but if that's the deal he wants let someone else give it to him. You give 5 years at that $ to JPP, you'll all be crying by minimum year 3, possibly year 2 that the contract is an albatross.

and completely disappeared in the playoff game. St Stephen of the Blitz needs a 4 man pass rush or his pass defense gets carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey. You going to retain a DC whose defense is predicated on a front 4 pass rush, lay out big money for Vernon, big money for Jenkins, big money for Harrison and tell Pierre-Paul he's not worth it? Please.

They are paying the dough whether they like it or not. The only question is length of contract and how to structure it.

He would stupid not to. I'm guessing he tests the market and the Giants get an opportunity to make a last offer.