JPP looking for "At Least" Vernon money per Ralph

In comment 13337905 magnum4413 said:

Quote:

What would the Patriots do? They would let him go. If he hadn't blown his hand off they would have traded him two years ago.

If they had the Giants roster? Move JPP out, have Okwara make the Pro-Bowl, trade a 4th Rounder for Joe Thomas, sign Martellus Bennett, draft HB McCaffery, trade OBJ to New Orleans for two future #1 picks and win the Super Bowl while being accused of cheating.

Sounds about right :).

that money.

sign Hankins..
use the # 23 pick on a DE

spend money on #2 WR = Jeffery

and a LT

He deserves it.

Make it (relatively) cheap the first 3 years. Biggest money doesn't kick in until 2020 when Eli retires. Giants still have flexibility.

There were calls to ban me and all kinds of horseshit, in the end, like I said then and I will say now:

BUH BYE!!!

Also, the front office is on fire over OBJ - his antics have not stopped 3 years into the league. If they get a sweet package of picks he will be gone. Book it.

In comment 13337754 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

He is a valuable player but there is no way we can have two Vernon contracts on the DLine. Nor would I franchise tag him. Lets keep getting younger, healthier and better...

Unfortunately JPP is more valuable, a better player then Vernon, and one of the top 3 two way DEs in the NFL...the IDIOTS on drug are the people on this board that think the guy is signing for less then what he is worth...you don't win in the NFL by constantly having to replace your best players...especially young players approaching their prime...the Giants have plenty of cap space...have a number of "dead wood" player they can cut...players they can restructure and extend...it simple..

PAY THE MAN!!!

JPP needs to be their #1 priority and deserves Vernon money +

I would go same length and amount....but the Giants can probably make an argument on the guarantee money based on his injury history, his accident, and the fact that JPP is 2 years older then Vernon...

you are going to take a hit defensively.

JPP and OV are both better when the other is out there.

No one wants to mention how OV's production fell off after JPP went down huh?

Obviously the Giants can't hand out blank checks, but they will negotiate. You never want to see talent walking out the door.

They've been through this routine with Strahan, Tuck and Osi. They will get something done.

to the Giants than Hankins is

JPP does it all, run stopping, pass blocking, sacking, hurrying, kick blocking, pressures, and he's everywhere on the field and plays with high energy non-stop on defense all game long

Good for him and he will get it.

The Giants set the market with the Vernon deal, and now they have to live in it.

I'd sign him. But if he goes, I am proud of him as a person and player. He was a huge part of the Giants getting a ring in 2011, has overcome an unimaginable obstacle and was a team first guy all the way.

I will never, ever forget or forget to appreciate how prepared he was in 2015 when he came back mid-season. He lost basically half his hand and was on the field kicking butt a few months later.

How many full seasons has JPP actually played? I know he has been out in the past few with injuries, But off the top of my head I can't remember any full seasons with out injuries.

10, 11, 12 and 14

11 games in 13 (back surgery/shoulder)

8 games in 15 (fireworks accident)

12 games in 16 (groin/abdominal)

JPP is a weapon that gives you flexibility to be creative on defense. He is out there on every down and defenses have to account for him.

The Giants have a two, maybe three year window here to get it done. Be creative in managing the cap and make the push NOW. Pay the piper down the road.

before going off on the FT, new contract, whatever..T.J. Lang was in tears after the Packers lost because he realized this could be it for him given his love for his teammates and GB in general..Yes, personalities are different, talent levels can be different, but it struck a chord in me reading JPP's statement and then a few weeks later, Lang's..

More germain to this thread is this: People assume OV money should do it..The teams dripping with cap space will pay much more than OV money in the SAME WAY it was alleged here that we paid much more for last year's signings than we needed to..

.

when JPP blew up his hand, I said that he would put the work in and come back, I said that his game was body movement not just hands, and that he could still be great.

He has been nothing but a warrior since then, played lots and lots of downs prior to the injury.

WTF do some of you guys want, frigging moses and effing LBJ and Kennedy and frigging james fucking bond?

In comment 13337988 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

before going off on the FT, new contract, whatever..T.J. Lang was in tears after the Packers lost because he realized this could be it for him given his love for his teammates and GB in general..Yes, personalities are different, talent levels can be different, but it struck a chord in me reading JPP's statement and then a few weeks later, Lang's.. More germain to this thread is this: People assume OV money should do it..The teams dripping with cap space will pay much more than OV money in the SAME WAY it was alleged here that we paid much more for last year's signings than we needed to..

JPP was also injured and missed the final 4 games so he had plenty of time to think about these things and wasn't caught up in the emotions of playing a game the day before.

And I agree that Jax or (especially) Cleveland could blow any offer away to get a relatively young player on-board that can anchor the D.

No problem whatsoever with Beckham and the WR crew making a spectacle of themselves the entire week before a playoff game.

JPP gets slammed for comments after the season is over?

Some of you are hypocrites. Like it or not, JPP agreed to take a 1 year "prove it" deal and he proved it. Someone is going to pay him good money. If the Giants can make it work, they will. What organization have some of you been watching the last 20 years? They don't let premium DEs walk.

OR ANY BUSINESS Office for that matter. FFS.

In comment 13338010 Chris684 said:

Quote:

No problem whatsoever with Beckham and the WR crew making a spectacle of themselves the entire week before a playoff game. JPP gets slammed for comments after the season is over? Some of you are hypocrites. Like it or not, JPP agreed to take a 1 year "prove it" deal and he proved it. Someone is going to pay him good money. If the Giants can make it work, they will. What organization have some of you been watching the last 20 years? They don't let premium DEs walk.

It's not a slam. I don't like him. Never will, but he's very good and working out a contract would be fine with me, though I will be upset with JR if he can't get something done with Hankins..

I thought his comments right after the season ended was cold, unfeeling, especially given how nice the Giants have been to him through that entire hand blow process..Yes it's a business, we all know this. Still, it was cold. TO ME.

In comment 13337937 aquidneck said:

Quote:

He deserves it. Make it (relatively) cheap the first 3 years. Biggest money doesn't kick in until 2020 when Eli retires. Giants still have flexibility.

This is the correct answer.

Give JPP a nice signing bonus (say, $30M), backload the deal to have the big $$ in years 4 and 5 (say, have year 4 be $18M and year 5 be $20M)- everyone wins.

The agent can trumpet a "Vernon deal," while knowing that JPP will never play out years 4 and 5 of that deal. JPP gets big money immediately (the signing bonus) that can't be taken away, and the Giants lock up their other DE.

The Giants can then restructure or cut JPP after year 3, just as Eli moves off the books, when real money becomes available.

Sure, the SB causes dead money after year 3- but with $30M amortized over 5 years, $18M would have been depreciated, meaning the Giants would actually get cap savings by cutting JPP after year 3 because of the big base salary being cut offsets the SB remaining ($12M dead money offset by $18M base salary not paid under this scenario).

This isn't that hard to do.

JPP worked really hard to get back to where he is after he blew his hand up, no doubt about it.

That is of no importance though.

-53 tackles
-seven tackles for loss
-seven sacks
-eight passes defended
-three forced fumbles
-fumble return for a touchdown

That's in 12 games.

You would just never sign any of your own free agents then because all you can do is look at the body of work, unless you're a mind-reader.

In comment 13338046 Chris684 said:

Quote:

You would just never sign any of your own free agents then because all you can do is look at the body of work, unless you're a mind-reader.

No, by my logic you don't give out a big contract unless you feel damn good about the player living up to that deal.

In comment 13338044 Go Terps said:

Quote:

JPP worked really hard to get back to where he is after he blew his hand up, no doubt about it. That is of no importance though.

That is why you backload the contract- he's still 28- likely to have several high end years left. Plan for 3 years, and you are likely safe.

(as much as possible). Salary guarantees are a safer way to deal with big contracts (less dead money and cap hit, if the player needs to be released)

The structure and amounts you mention in your post pale in comparison to Vernon's deal. It's not that anyone objects to your suggestion, just that nobody believes JPP won't ask for and get more.

In comment 13338059 PEEJ said:

Quote:

(as much as possible). Salary guarantees are a safer way to deal with big contracts (less dead money and cap hit, if the player needs to be released)

Hard to manage the cap that way, since salaries hit in full that year versus bonus money that can be spread out over three.

In comment 13338061 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338059 PEEJ said: Quote: (as much as possible). Salary guarantees are a safer way to deal with big contracts (less dead money and cap hit, if the player needs to be released) Hard to manage the cap that way, since salaries hit in full that year versus bonus money that can be spread out over three.

Depends. The Eagles have used them with some success to get rid of underperforming players without major cap hits (IIRC, the Maxwell and Murray deals were structured this way). And while Vernon got a nice signing bonus ($20M), most of his guarantees or potential guarantees were in base salaries and/or roster bonuses ($7M roster bonus last year, ~$9M gtd base this year, potentially $12M gtd base in 2018).

And they also give you flexibility since you can (at least sometimes) convert the gtd base to a bonus payment and spread it out. The Dolphins did this with Suh and the Cowboys have done it a couple times with T Smith (though his base salaries may not have been gtd initally).

He won't sign to the last minute. If two quality OL become available release his ass and send him a gross of firecrackers.

and work out a deal on their terms or he'll play under the tag.

I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go.

Did anyone think he would say, "give me 90% of Vernon's deal"?

In comment 13338070 Old Dirty Beckham said:

Quote:

and work out a deal on their terms or he'll play under the tag. I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go.

Also can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized..As Diver said:

Quote:

Everyone that says franchise him. Diver_Down : 1/23/2017 9:17 pm : link : reply Are you content letting the negotiations linger until after July 15 in which case his only option is to sign the tender, but we would be unable to negotiate a long-term contract after that date? Keep in mind that 17 mil must be allocated from the cap limiting our ability to react in the early days of FA to sign OL help.

In comment 13338080 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338070 Old Dirty Beckham said: Quote: and work out a deal on their terms or he'll play under the tag. I can't fathom any giant fan who thinks it's a good idea to let our pass rusher go. Also can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized..As Diver said: Quote: Everyone that says franchise him. Diver_Down : 1/23/2017 9:17 pm : link : reply Are you content letting the negotiations linger until after July 15 in which case his only option is to sign the tender, but we would be unable to negotiate a long-term contract after that date? Keep in mind that 17 mil must be allocated from the cap limiting our ability to react in the early days of FA to sign OL help.

I understand how the cap works. The Giants own JPP. Franchising puts them in a position that is favorable to them. Letting him walk makes the defense significantly worse.

won't franchise him unless they feel comfortable paying him the $17 million. Isn't that a given? There's no guarantees that he signs it, or sits out as long as possible, but the offer means they are prepared to pay him that $17 million in a worst case scenario which would suggest they are earmarking that money to their 2017 cap space/flexibility.

I can't imagine Reese, or any other GM would offer a tag and hope for the best, completely ignoring their gameplan for the rest of the offseason.

completely ignores what I and others have opined relative to fixing the O..Sorry, but I don't see ANYWHERE where you showed an understanding of what we need to do to vie for the trophy..

Signing JPP to dollars that might inhibit fixing the O, does not make us even close to being serious players for the trophy..

If JPP is signed in whatever way Abrams feels is doable and we fix the O, we are as strong a contender as anyone..If we lose JPP, sign Hankins, fix the OL, fix the TE position and get ourselves a third, bigger WR, then we vie even with a good(without JPP) D rather than a great (with JPP) D with last year's O

In comment 13338087 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

won't franchise him unless they feel comfortable paying him the $17 million. Isn't that a given? There's no guarantees that he signs it, or sits out as long as possible, but the offer means they are prepared to pay him that $17 million in a worst case scenario which would suggest they are earmarking that money to their 2017 cap space/flexibility. I can't imagine Reese, or any other GM would offer a tag and hope for the best, completely ignoring their gameplan for the rest of the offseason.

Except it happens..We'll never be able to secure top end OL talent with cap space deeply eaten into..Sure you can cut people, but you then have to replace those cuts, often with bigger contracts than you're cutting, imo..I think Abrams may be one of the best cap guys in the business, but even he might not succeed in improving the O if hamstrung by dollars, imv

In comment 13338080 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

..can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized.

the only thing is doc -- the Giants were 11-5 because of the Defense -- you take away one of the dominant defensive players -- and whether you like him or not -- JPP impacts the Run Defense (stops, penetration, chasing down)), the Pass Defense (sacks, hurries, pressure, blocked passes), and special teams (blocked FGs) - the defense takes a hit and is not as dominant a force in making key stops.

The Giants don't have enough impact Pass rushers with JPP on the roster -- losing him will be subtraction in a vital area that still needs addition -- an add of another DE to the roster is really what is needed to maybe reduce the number of snaps JPP and Vernon play -- you don't want to lose JPP and rely on a lesser player to fill his role --- defense becomes less dominant

Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -

In comment 13338060 jcn56 said:

Quote:

The structure and amounts you mention in your post pale in comparison to Vernon's deal. It's not that anyone objects to your suggestion, just that nobody believes JPP won't ask for and get more.

Umm, no, that would be incorrect.

Let's say that the Giants and JPP agree to a bonus structure of $30M -which is the number from my post (Vernon get $27M BTW).

Let's also assume that the Giants guarantee the base salary in years 1 and 2. Let's say the Giants agree to give JPP a base salary of $3M in year 1, $10M in year 2, and $15M in year 3- with $5M guaranteed.

Then year 4 is $18M and year 5 is $20M. That would be a 5 year $91M deal.

Thus, yes, that is MORE than what Vernon got.

ask Jamie Collins. And Ty Law. And Richard Seymour.

Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE.

Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen?

In comment 13338093 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In comment 13338080 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: ..can't fathom any Giant fan who does not know or comprehends very little, about the cap and how it works..If we can't sign JPP to an affordable contract(amortized with guaranteed dollars) then we are looking at an O that won't be all that improved (possibly even worse) from last year..I do not believe we come all that close to 11-5 again unless that O is FIXED in areas of great need, a signed JPP or not..Cap dollars-wise it would really hurt the cap if we use the 17 mil FT that cannot be amortized. the only thing is doc -- the Giants were 11-5 because of the Defense -- you take away one of the dominant defensive players -- and whether you like him or not -- JPP impacts the Run Defense (stops, penetration, chasing down)), the Pass Defense (sacks, hurries, pressure, blocked passes), and special teams (blocked FGs) - the defense takes a hit and is not as dominant a force in making key stops. The Giants don't have enough impact Pass rushers with JPP on the roster -- losing him will be subtraction in a vital area that still needs addition -- an add of another DE to the roster is really what is needed to maybe reduce the number of snaps JPP and Vernon play -- you don't want to lose JPP and rely on a lesser player to fill his role --- defense becomes less dominant Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -

gidie, I hear you as always, but there's no guarantee or possibly even a reasonable assumption that the D will continue to bail out the O..They won't have to if we fix the O as we did the D..

OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?

They were available and we had huge money to do it.

I agree with gidie that you don't want to weaken a strength, but I also don't want to double down on overpaying at the defensive end position. Also consider that paying JPP increases the likelihood that Hankins walks and/or DRC is released.

In comment 13338101 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

ask Jamie Collins. And Ty Law. And Richard Seymour. Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE. Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen?

ya' think?

In comment 13338111 Old Dirty Beckham said:

Quote:

OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?

Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others

In comment 13338093 gidiefor said:

Quote:

Yes the Offense needs help -- but the Defense is a proven strength now -- you don't want to weaken a proven strength -- that would be poor management of resources -

But based on this past year, we know the mix we have doesn't work...right? So don't they need to reallocate the resources somewhat.

In comment 13338116 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338101 Victor in CT said: Quote: ask Jamie Collins. And Ty Law. And Richard Seymour. Move on, use the $$ elsewhere to get younger, cheaper and more versatile. If Spags is such a great DefCo like most people here seem to think he is, he should be able to scheme around it, play someone like Bromley at LDE. Or maybe Spags ain't so great and needs an army of all pro linemen? ya' think?

I always thought. I'm not in the "Spags is a genius" camp.

He owes the Giants a bit more whether he thinks so or not.....hopefully his agent talks some sense into him. He's not going to sit a year out. He can sign a 5 year deal at a reasonable discount or he can play for one more year and walk.

As posted above, the Giants hold the cards. For one more year.

In comment 13338111 Old Dirty Beckham said:

Quote:

OL we can't sign if we keep JPP?

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion with the needs of our OL. I have made my position known that JPP should be resigned. And he should get the market rate. He doesn't "owe" the Giants anything stemming from the fireworks incident. He returned with a bloody club. Came back and took less money that was on the table from the Cards in a prove it deal. He has proven that he is a top DE in the league. The Giants should own up to their end of the bargain. If they are not willing to pay him the market rate, then let him move on. The FT will hinder us in being able to shore up the OL. Just for round numbers say we have $30mil in cap space after cuts. Tagging JPP will eat up $17mil, leaving us with $13mil. How do you propose that we sign 2 FA OL with $13 mil?

In comment 13338119 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13338111 Old Dirty Beckham said: Quote: OL we can't sign if we keep JPP? Kevin Zeitler quickly comes to mind. Still young and can build with at G..Best G coming out of college in '12 and has maintained his A-one ranking ever since..He and Pugh would be terrific bookends imo..Not many OLTs to write home about..I'll have to look at other FAs to name others

This is my thing though, I dont want to lose JPP for a guard. The giants need tackles. If we had to lose him to sign a top tier tackle that's fine but i'm not doing it for a guard.