There are a lot of teams out there with a lot of cap room that need Oline help. Jerry needs to be fast out the gate or may need to over pay for a FA Oline. Plus I know one or two might be given the tag. I think Cincinnati may tag Ziegler and Tenn might tag Warmack. Tenn has 66 mil and Cinci has 44 as of right now.
If they are really going to move Flowers (I'm not convinced that they are), then Whitworth makes sense on a 2 yr deal, then draft another OT this year or next year.
Not going to happen. Would have to give up too much.
2 problems with this:
1. The FA guards are much better than the FA tackles. When Kalil and an aging Whitworth are the top OTs, buyer beware.
2. Jerry was improved this past season, but is still an awful run blocker and RG is definitely a position that can be upgraded. Jerry was easily the worst run blocking OL on this team (the TEs were worse). A guy like Zietler would greatly help.
Riley Rieff is underwhelming.
I'd rather try to trade a high 2018 draft pick if there were any takers.
Just my thoughts. Could be wrong for sure.
Good call on the single franchise tag for OL. Zietler's a top OG, but $14M is a little steep for an interior OL. Osemele blew away prior contracts for OGs last year and still "only" received $11.7M per season.
And to the OP, no chance the Titans are tagging Warmack, even if they could. He's closer to a $6M player than a $10M per year guy.
I also think they will give EF the LT spot once again. If so, then he needs a really solid LG and/or blocking TE to help him.
If not they might move Pugh to LT or, move up and get a top 2 LT.
My take is that they go after solid Guard(s) in FA to strengthen the interior, especially a LG who can help both EF and Richburg if they struggle again like this year, move JP back out to RT(yes, I know...), and draft a T.
Just my thoughts. Could be wrong for sure.
I could buy that, but at best there are two tackles that are average or better:
- Whitworth will be 36 and while he's been healthy his entire career, guys can fall off the cliff fast. He's also spent his entire career in CIN and could very well want to stay unless the money isn't close.
- Kalil - didn't miss any games until this past season, but has played through some injuries (IIRC, back issues) and isn't known for working his ass off. Also has a bit of a "soft" label around here (I live in MN). Due to the lack of OTs available, especially LTs, I think someone's going to give him $10M+ per season and I don't think he's anywhere close to that level. Zietler's a much better football player and could ultimately cost less due to his position.
Also, while the OTs on this team suck in pass protection, there's also something to be said for building onto your strengths. Pugh-Richburg-Zietler up the middle would be a very strong group and should keep the pocket clean on passing plays so Eli can step up, while also opening some runs to the right side so the offense isn't so dependent on runs between Flowers-Pugh, especially in short yardage.
Hart is great for a 7th rounder but is an average at best starter.
Flowers might change positions.
Jerry is hugely flawed but at worst the 2nd best OL in 2016.
Newhouse and Jones are good depth.
Pugh when healthy is good.
Richburg when healthy in 2015 was good, not sure what happened in 2016.
Signing some free agent guards and old or oft-injured tackles to big money isn't a likely or realistic solution.
People want to talk about spending to much cap dollars on one position with the DL in regard to JPP and Hankins, you really think the Giants are going to tie all that up on the interior offensive line? NO CHANCE
They will look for a cheap stop gap guard in the mold of Jerry unless you think they are letting Pugh or Richburg walk next year (not happening either)
There is no left tackle out there worthy of a long term huge contract.
Whitworth is a different case as he will get nice money, but on a 2-3 year deal. He makes the most sense as he's a pure TACKLE, but if we don't sign him get ready for a lot of middle of the road contracts/draft picks competing with Flowers and Hart.
We absolutely can not have Flowers or a rookie protecting Eli's blindside. Eventually they'll get him killed.
A lot of people at draft time thought Flowers best position is OG and they still do think that. You sign Whitworth and you're getting a huge upgrade at LT while also upgrading at RG. Now you're left with a hole at RT. We can either let Newhouse/Hart battle in out or go for a younger RT with NFL experience who still has upside like Ravens RT Ricky Wagner.
The Bengals first two draft picks in 2015 were on tackles which is why I think they're willing to let Whitworth walk.
I'd be happy to have Whitworth and Sebastian Vollmer on 2-3 year deals. That would help keep things cost effective as the Giants have big contracts to mull over the next several seasons and starting with JPP. Then draft at least one OL in the first four rds to develop such as Western Michigan's Taylor Moton or Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport.
2017 line:
Whitworth-Pugh-Richburg-Flowers-Vollmer
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he was the worst in the NFL this season. ANYONE would be an improvement. We dont need a pro bowler
He was not the worst. A solid left tackle is not easy to find. Learn football
Using various posted metrics based purely on pass rushing he would figure to be the worst NFL starter or close to it. Hart wasn't far behind.
FA isn't going to solve the Giants problems this year. Whitworth may be a good stopgap if he isn't too expensive and if he wants to sign with the Giants. Most of the FA's this year are uninspiring across the board outside of the CB position.
Bottom line is Reese needs to nail this draft. He needs to come away with a pass rusher, OL help, a TE, an outside WR, and depth at the CB and RB positions.
Not only Richburg, but Pugh is also overrated. He's the best of the shitty OL that we trot out. His 5th year option is an 8 mil cap hit and is guaranteed for injury. Other than his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. The shrewd business move would be to shop around in FA. If we can find a healthy long term solution at a similar cap expense, then we should sign them instead. Once those players are locked up, you cut Pugh and he doesn't see a dime. Don't allow him in the facility where he can stub his toe and force the cap hit.
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him.
Not only Richburg, but Pugh is also overrated. He's the best of the shitty OL that we trot out. His 5th year option is an 8 mil cap hit and is guaranteed for injury. Other than his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. The shrewd business move would be to shop around in FA. If we can find a healthy long term solution at a similar cap expense, then we should sign them instead. Once those players are locked up, you cut Pugh and he doesn't see a dime. Don't allow him in the facility where he can stub his toe and force the cap hit.
good points both. Often injured, and is he that good, or just the best of a bad bunch?
Yeah there's the "Eli window" but there's also football after Eli, we need to not fuck that up.
Zeitler will stay in Cin - he is their best OL and he is young.
I don't think Warmack gets a huge offer. I don't think Warford gets a huge offer. Anyone have any confidence Joeckel can play G.
Byron Bell may also be a guy to look at. Just turned 28, was healthy until last year. He has started 48 at RT, 16 at LT and 8 at G. Missed all of last year,
Yeah there's the "Eli window" but there's also football after Eli, we need to not fuck that up.
agree. better no singing than a bad signing
Zeitler will stay in Cin - he is their best OL and he is young.
I don't think Warmack gets a huge offer. I don't think Warford gets a huge offer. Anyone have any confidence Joeckel can play G.
Byron Bell may also be a guy to look at. Just turned 28, was healthy until last year. He has started 48 at RT, 16 at LT and 8 at G. Missed all of last year,
Bell was a guy I was thinking of to replace Newhouse as the swing tackle and provide some competition at both OT spots.
I'd rather take a shot on Warmack than Jerry though. Maybe a change of scenery can help. We know Jerry sucks.
Giants will target a dual-LT/RT guy and move him to LT finally when Flowers screws up big time.
People, Flowers needs an almost miraculous change in his attitude to improve. Very unlikely to happen. I'm hoping for the best though.
We can all assume anything we want, but there's so much limited information on what goes into pretty major personnel changes. There's no obvious fix.
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he was the worst in the NFL this season. ANYONE would be an improvement. We dont need a pro bowler
He was not the worst. A solid left tackle is not easy to find. Learn football
Sorry there DJ but several metrics articles have sighted Flowers as the worst in 2016. Most penalties to boot!
2011 Contract details by year 26 $8,000,000 $2,260,000 $5,000,000 $600,000 $100,000 $15,960,000 -
2012 Contract details by year 27 $10,500,000 $2,260,000 - $600,000 $200,000 $13,560,000 -
2013 Contract details by year 28 $10,000,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $11,400,000 $3,600,000
2014 Contract details by year 29 $10,900,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $12,300,000 $2,600,000
2015 Contract details by year 30 $8,800,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $10,200,000 $1,400,000
2016 Contract details by year 31 $8,300,000 - $1,000,000 - $200,000 $9,500,000 $9,500,000
2017 Contract details by year 32 $8,800,000 - $2,500,000 - $200,000 $11,500,000 -
2018 Contract details by year 33 $8,800,000 - $1,000,000 - $200,000 $10,000,000 -
2019 Free Agent Year age 34
UFA
So trading for a future HOF player at a position of biggest need (for a 2nd rounder) is a bad Idea; but signing an older player age 35 for the same or more money is a good Idea.
Tell what future Hall of fame player are we going to draft in round 2?
Link - ( New Window )
It probably won't be a bad thing if the Giants don't spend a boat load of money in FA anyway. I'm more concerned with the players the Giants have as opposed to the ones they don't have. Re-sign the key players.
2011 Contract details by year 26 $8,000,000 $2,260,000 $5,000,000 $600,000 $100,000 $15,960,000 -
2012 Contract details by year 27 $10,500,000 $2,260,000 - $600,000 $200,000 $13,560,000 -
2013 Contract details by year 28 $10,000,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $11,400,000 $3,600,000
2014 Contract details by year 29 $10,900,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $12,300,000 $2,600,000
2015 Contract details by year 30 $8,800,000 $1,200,000 - - $200,000 $10,200,000 $1,400,000
2016 Contract details by year 31 $8,300,000 - $1,000,000 - $200,000 $9,500,000 $9,500,000
2017 Contract details by year 32 $8,800,000 - $2,500,000 - $200,000 $11,500,000 -
2018 Contract details by year 33 $8,800,000 - $1,000,000 - $200,000 $10,000,000 -
2019 Free Agent Year age 34
UFA
So trading for a future HOF player at a position of biggest need (for a 2nd rounder) is a bad Idea; but signing an older player age 35 for the same or more money is a good Idea.
Tell what future Hall of fame player are we going to draft in round 2? Link - ( New Window )
It is because you'd be parting with a future assets. Its not about the money with Joe Thomas, its the money + what's being called a 1st rounder, maybe a 2nd if they get desperate and budge a bit on their price (why would they, he's cheap for his level of play).
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After looking at this can you really say adding Joe Thomas is a bad idea?
...
2017 Contract details by year 32 $8,800,000 - $2,500,000 - $200,000 $11,500,000 -
2018 Contract details by year 33 $8,800,000 - $1,000,000 - $200,000 $10,000,000 -
2019 Free Agent Year age 34
UFA
So trading for a future HOF player at a position of biggest need (for a 2nd rounder) is a bad Idea; but signing an older player age 35 for the same or more money is a good Idea.
Tell what future Hall of fame player are we going to draft in round 2? Link - ( New Window )
It is because you'd be parting with a future assets. Its not about the money with Joe Thomas, its the money + what's being called a 1st rounder, maybe a 2nd if they get desperate and budge a bit on their price (why would they, he's cheap for his level of play).
Not just the future assets, but most certainly any trade will be conditional on a reworked contract. Joe Thomas is not being traded for an existing 2 year contract.
And Vegas Steve, you have to be careful how you couch your argument with the right adjectives.
When you phrase your argument in such a manner, the obvious answer confirms your bias. But perhaps a few more adjectives based in fact will draw a different conclusion. Perhaps signing an older healthy, Pro-Bowl, career LT at age of 35 for the same money that Thomas is currently under contract for and won't cost a draft pick(s) is a good idea? Here is another fact: The last time the vaunted New York Football Giants sent a LT to the Pro-Bowl was Jumbo Elliot, 20+ years ago.
If we are able to sign Whitworth, he instantly becomes our best lineman. That can be a compliment to Whitworth's talents or an indictment on the shitty development of our draft picks.
Good teams stay good by infusing young talent. Trading for Joe Thomas at his current price is exactly the opposite approach of that philosophy. It wouldn't shock me at all if he spends another full year in Cleveland because the rest of the league also finds parting with those assets to be absurd.
AJ Buoye (HOU) -- very talented CB and a big reason why HOU pass d was so good. Probably gets a big contract this off-season.
Logan Ryan (NE) -- very solid player for NE. Not sure what the market will set his value at and if he's even willing to leave NE.
Dre Kirkpatrick (CIN) -- number 1 corner in Cincy. Physical player. Probably a good scheme fit for Spags.
Terence Newman (MIN) -- older player but still playing at a pretty high level. Could be a nice addition at a reasonable price.
Captain Munnerlyn (MIN) -- probably doesn't hit the market, but if he does he'd be a good player to add at the right price.
Mo Claiborne (DAL) -- potential cap casualty, pretty up and down in Dallas. Could do a lot worse as the 4/5 CB if the price is right.
Stephon Gilmore (BUF) -- decent player not a great scheme fit w Rex Ryan.
And, there's no LT out there via UFA on tap.
And, there's no LT out there via UFA on tap.
Should we interpret that to mean that you think they will address the OL through the draft or maybe not at all?
But, I don't think they'll spend top dollars on an OG, nor trade for a Joe Thomas. Even a year ago, while they kicked the tires on LTs they chose to pass because the players weren't open to playing RT, and obviously the price was not right.
Reese tends to be a bit conservative and reactionary, often.
NYG has historically done really well in the first two rounds of the draft. Thomas for a #3? Sure. But spending a #2 or more isn't like Reese, that pick could well become a legit #2 split end or slot CB.
Tough spot at LT. If his health checks out, and a deal's there to be made, I'd try to sign Kalil and Warmack ... but, is it doable at say $8M and $6M, respectively?
But, I don't think they'll spend top dollars on an OG, nor trade for a Joe Thomas. Even a year ago, while they kicked the tires on LTs they chose to pass because the players weren't open to playing RT, and obviously the price was not right.
Reese tends to be a bit conservative and reactionary, often.
This is a tough year. There are not a lot of enticing options in FA for the OL and if you rely on the draft there is no guarantee you won't get shut out from the better prospects, as last year showed with Conklin. I also wonder fom a political perspective if Reese can go into next year without being perceived to have made an effort to upgrade the OL.
Hart is great for a 7th rounder but is an average at best starter.
Sorry to quibble, but I think a lot of fans misunderstand the value of players. An average starter is a very valuable player. You can't have stars at every position, because you can't pay them. You can't even have stars at every O-line position -- not if you're going to pay big money to both defensive ends, and the quarterback, etc.
Average starters are great to have -- as long as they're not the best starters on the team. You don't have to pay them a ton of money, and they give good value for the money. If you have a some legitimate stars surrounded by average starters, and adequate depth, you probably have a good team.
An average starting tackle would be around 32nd-best tackle in the league. (2 starting tackles per team, total of 64. 32nd-best lands you in the middle.) If Bobby Hart is around the 32nd-best OT in the NFL, he's a steal in the 7th. Would the Giants be better off with a new Kareem McKenzie at RT and a new Jumbo Elliott at LT. Damn straight. But right now, an average LT and an average RT would probably be an upgrade.
Average starters aren't the problem. It's the bad starters who are a problem.
I don't think it is going to be a wholesale fix like with the DL last year.
And then back it up with maybe second or third round guy in the draft that can be developed a bit (don't say it...i know we aren't that good a this).
HAVE TO upgrade the Tackles on this team for 2017...even somewhat...
Being so ineffective on the O-line was a crutch to this team all year...relying on defense to make a last gasp stand at the end of each game. Good luck with that trend continuing.
It would be shocking to see this O-line not have some changes by Day 1 next year...
If that FO/Coaching staff isn't sweating over what to do at LT and RT then they aren't the right men for the job...
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Hart is great for a 7th rounder but is an average at best starter.
Sorry to quibble, but I think a lot of fans misunderstand the value of players. An average starter is a very valuable player. You can't have stars at every position, because you can't pay them. You can't even have stars at every O-line position -- not if you're going to pay big money to both defensive ends, and the quarterback, etc.
Average starters are great to have -- as long as they're not the best starters on the team. You don't have to pay them a ton of money, and they give good value for the money. If you have a some legitimate stars surrounded by average starters, and adequate depth, you probably have a good team.
An average starting tackle would be around 32nd-best tackle in the league. (2 starting tackles per team, total of 64. 32nd-best lands you in the middle.) If Bobby Hart is around the 32nd-best OT in the NFL, he's a steal in the 7th. Would the Giants be better off with a new Kareem McKenzie at RT and a new Jumbo Elliott at LT. Damn straight. But right now, an average LT and an average RT would probably be an upgrade.
Average starters aren't the problem. It's the bad starters who are a problem.
Problem is Hart wasn't rated as average but bad. I read where the Giants highest rated OT was rated at # 58. That's bad, and an average OT would most definitely be an upgrade.
Quote:
Hart is great for a 7th rounder but is an average at best starter.
Sorry to quibble, but I think a lot of fans misunderstand the value of players. An average starter is a very valuable player. You can't have stars at every position, because you can't pay them. You can't even have stars at every O-line position -- not if you're going to pay big money to both defensive ends, and the quarterback, etc.
Average starters are great to have -- as long as they're not the best starters on the team. You don't have to pay them a ton of money, and they give good value for the money. If you have a some legitimate stars surrounded by average starters, and adequate depth, you probably have a good team.
An average starting tackle would be around 32nd-best tackle in the league. (2 starting tackles per team, total of 64. 32nd-best lands you in the middle.) If Bobby Hart is around the 32nd-best OT in the NFL, he's a steal in the 7th. Would the Giants be better off with a new Kareem McKenzie at RT and a new Jumbo Elliott at LT. Damn straight. But right now, an average LT and an average RT would probably be an upgrade.
Average starters aren't the problem. It's the bad starters who are a problem.
Hart isn't an average starter. When he is at his best he is an average starter. He rarely plays at that level and that is why he got benched for Newhouse.
For a 7th rounder he is a hugely successful. But he has never shown that he is a player a team shouldn't look to replace.
When I said he was average at best I didn't mean he was an average player - I meant that in the best case scenario - ie. Hart playing lights consistently out he would still only be an average starter.
Two factors we don't know about. How they view flowers and hart. Let's assume the Giants are determined to give flowers one more shot but perhaps want to add young talent to the LT spot, as always. Competition and all that. The question is do they like hart? Do they like Jerry? They can't like everyone on this line.....right?
I want to pretty much go all in on the belief that the Giants will make a concentrated effort to add a tackle this offseason. Probably a RT.
I wish I was a fly on the wall in the meetings going on between mcadoo, Reese and Mara when they bring up the offense. Reese even said it's an enigma. There's so much mystery to this offense and what mcadoo wants to do, how he views certain players along the ol and what Reese is prepared to do. How do they feel about Eli? We can talk all we want about how safe we feel with Eli but how does Reese feel? How does mcadoo feel? Was it all the OLs fault? Did Eli leave too much meat on the bone? So much to ponder.
Diver_Down : 11:46 am : link : reply
In comment 13341700 Victor in CT said:
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him.
Not only Richburg, but Pugh is also overrated. He's the best of the shitty OL that we trot out. His 5th year option is an 8 mil cap hit and is guaranteed for injury. Other than his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. The shrewd business move would be to shop around in FA. If we can find a healthy long term solution at a similar cap expense, then we should sign them instead. Once those players are locked up, you cut Pugh and he doesn't see a dime. Don't allow him in the facility where he can stub his toe and force the cap hit.
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I would love him on our line. Veteran and a STUD.
Not going to happen. Would have to give up too much.
1. How do you know this?
2. Why shouldn't the Giants pay a premium to finally protect Eli?
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him.
Not only Richburg, but Pugh is also overrated. He's the best of the shitty OL that we trot out. His 5th year option is an 8 mil cap hit and is guaranteed for injury. Other than his rookie year, he has not played 16 games a season. The shrewd business move would be to shop around in FA. If we can find a healthy long term solution at a similar cap expense, then we should sign them instead. Once those players are locked up, you cut Pugh and he doesn't see a dime. Don't allow him in the facility where he can stub his toe and force the cap hit.
No Pugh is pretty good. He's the only offensive linemen we've got I can say that about.
Richburg at center was good in 2015 and sucked in 2016. Next year is put up or shut up time for him.
Hart and Flowers were Ian Allen bad. Maybe even worse. Even a slightly below average OT would be a huge improvement. They were that bad.
Cleveland has a ton of money, their defense sucks, and probably a little bit of disadvantage in attracting free agents.
They have the money to throw at JPP and the leverage (franchise tag) 59 make him listen.
We end up with 2 years of Thomas at about $20m total, sign Hankins. With other cuts and tinkering, the Giants should still have almost $20m to work with.
Think Cleveland goes for this?
Type of statement made by the idiots who have become typical Americans.
The first part is in all likelihood true. It is the "end of story" part which we do not even the semblance of info to make any kind of stay, cut, switch positions decisions in an informed manner.
If Solari is at least competent, he should have a better idea than we do as to the lack of improvement from week to week. At the least, you would expect the player to go from bad to less bad as the season progressed. This appeared not to happen.
There is going to be an internal bias in the Organization to give him another year at LT strictly from the fact that there is no plug and play answer in the draft and the FA possible answers have either trade costs and/or risk factors due to advanced age. And yes, based on his age Whitworth is a huge risk at LT.