Cincy Jungle: Rumors swirling re Vikes/Giants & Whitworth

I was assuming Whitworth would hit the market. He still might and usually anything an Agent says I divide by 20, but would Cincy give him his 8 mill per that he might command?

Are the most likely destinations as win now teams with a huge need on the O line

but at what cost? For how long? 2-3 years?

You know my position on AW. I felt that Cincy has been kicking the can on the man for some time. He is coming off a 1 yr. contract. Previously, it was a 2 year contract. They haven't committed to him on a long-term in some time as they have been hopeful that their young talent would unseat him. Their problem is that AW is still at the top of his game (recent pro-bowl) talent wise. Knowing that he was going to be a FA, I assumed that he was finally going to be cut loose based on the declining lengths of his past contracts.

Of course, I have said that there always remains the possibility he would like to never wear another jersey. It's rare nowadays that players can continue their career for one team for so long.

I felt a 3 year contract that averages 8-9 million/year would work for both.

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was from January 21st..The latest one in the OP was January 27th..

plan at LT - it didn't work. Fine with bringing in a two or even one year stop gap. In 2000 we brought in a couple of old timers on the OL in Lomas Brown and Glenn Parker. Helped us go 12-4 and win an NFC title.

In comment 13342557 Diver_Down said:

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I felt a 3 year contract that averages 8-9 million/year would work for both.

I hope not much of that is guaranteed.

Tying $27 million to a 35-year-old isn't the most wise allocation of cap dollars.

to) like Brady will and Brees kost likely will, imo..

so I don't honestly believe his window is close to closing albeit I appear to be in the minority here with that opinion..

I've given your pro Whitworth posts more attention than I did at the outset of FA discussions and for 2-3 years, he could be huge for us. And, we can also let Flowers continue to develop his techniques(hopefully) while Whitworth is here, not to mention any youngins we draft..

In comment 13342576 bluepepper said:

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plan at LT - it didn't work. Fine with bringing in a two or even one year stop gap. In 2000 we brought in a couple of old timers on the OL in Lomas Brown and Glenn Parker. Helped us go 12-4 and win an NFC title.

And we can add that imo, Whitworth is 5 X the player Lomas was when he started for us in 2000

He's only 32 and a better player. A 3rd and a 5th should do it.

But I would prefer to pass on Whitworth. I'm just terrified that he might fall off a cliff at 36.

In comment 13342605 Stan in LA said:

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He's only 32 and a better player. A 3rd and a 5th should do it.

I'd be fine with that. Doubt the Browns would do it, but ya never know

for a 36 year old Offensive Tackle?

LMAO!

In comment 13342612 area junc said:

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for a 36 year old Offensive Tackle? LMAO!

So what's Trent Baalke have to say about it

In comment 13342612 area junc said:

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for a 36 year old Offensive Tackle? LMAO!

For the record, he is 35. His Birthday is December 12, 1981. He just turned 35 last month.

I'd give him a 2 year contract and structure it so there is no guaranteed money in year 2. If his age catches up to him or he suffers a serious injury he can be released with zero cap implication.

All that matters is what you guarantee him.

Personally, I'd love Whitworth here on a solid deal that effectively pays him for this year and next. He might fall off a cliff, but he's been playing at a high level up until now so you hope that he's good for at least another year or two. If he's not, you're out some cap space but nothing unreasonable.

Everyone says Joe Thomas, but Cleveland isn't trading him unless they get a top pick. They're not stupid - they might be rebuilding, but they're going to need someone to protect their QB, present or future, and that guy's not easy to find. Why would they part with a good one unless they're getting a good future asset in return?

all that aside, I doubt he leaves Cincy.

In comment 13342621 jcn56 said:

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All that matters is what you guarantee him. Personally, I'd love Whitworth here on a solid deal that effectively pays him for this year and next. He might fall off a cliff, but he's been playing at a high level up until now so you hope that he's good for at least another year or two. If he's not, you're out some cap space but nothing unreasonable. Everyone says Joe Thomas, but Cleveland isn't trading him unless they get a top pick. They're not stupid - they might be rebuilding, but they're going to need someone to protect their QB, present or future, and that guy's not easy to find. Why would they part with a good one unless they're getting a good future asset in return?

Makes sense, but they don't have their Franchise QB on the roster yet. No guarantee they'll get one this year, even if they pick one..If I'm Cleveland, I send to the highest bidder.

QB, then Thomas would come in handy. Still not sure, with all their holes, holding on to him is the prudent thing to do, imv

how the heck does a 6'7" 330lb Left Tackle remain in very good football shape at his age? If he writes a book, he can make some extra cash.

Even if you think the answer is "avoid injury" that begs the question, how, exactly?

Think this one through, don't fall into clickbait groupthink... They need a LT. If they trade Thomas, they'll need to get another one anyway.

They can either:
- Fill that hole via FA - and pay about what they're paying Thomas anyway, since he's signed to a reasonable deal.
- Fill that hole via draft - and pony up resources that they desperately need to address holes all over their roster.

What good would a 3rd round pick do them? They get a marginal player in the draft in exchange for a guy playing LT at a high level, and at 32 could easily have another 4-5 years in him?

I don't doubt he's available, but it's not to the highest bidder, it's to someone willing to offer enough in trade to offset his loss.

In comment 13342580 Big Blue '56 said:

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And we can add that imo, Whitworth is 5 X the player Lomas was when he started for us in 2000

But Bruce, Lomas was far better at head butting opponents, IIRC.

In comment 13342634 mrvax said:

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In comment 13342580 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: And we can add that imo, Whitworth is 5 X the player Lomas was when he started for us in 2000 But Bruce, Lomas was far better at head butting opponents, IIRC.

Bob Whitfield, not Brown

In comment 13342633 jcn56 said:

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Think this one through, don't fall into clickbait groupthink... They need a LT. If they trade Thomas, they'll need to get another one anyway. They can either: - Fill that hole via FA - and pay about what they're paying Thomas anyway, since he's signed to a reasonable deal. - Fill that hole via draft - and pony up resources that they desperately need to address holes all over their roster. What good would a 3rd round pick do them? They get a marginal player in the draft in exchange for a guy playing LT at a high level, and at 32 could easily have another 4-5 years in him? I don't doubt he's available, but it's not to the highest bidder, it's to someone willing to offer enough in trade to offset his loss.

As I commented to Stan, does a 3 and a 5 do it? I don't think so..Would a 2 and a 5? I don't know. What I do know (think) is I would not be for parting with a 1

unless the deal is structured so cutting him after too doesn't amount to much dead cap. 35 is 35, he can fall off a cliff week 1.

if you can't get your price why bother, just because? A 3rd is a far cry from a 1st, if I was Cleveland I stay pat, and continue to make the team better.

In comment 13342641 UConn4523 said:

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unless the deal is structured so cutting him after too doesn't amount to much dead cap. 35 is 35, he can fall off a cliff week 1.

That's the thing - it can be 100 years. The years don't matter, the guarantees do. And I'm sure if they did sign him, it'd be some ridiculous sounding contract (5 years/40 million) that really ended up being 2 years at $8M each guaranteed, and a bunch of nonsensical promises after that nobody expects the player to see.

Cincy is 44 million under the cap. They can match any offer so you hav e to make sure the offer is high enough that they don't match

So forget about some reasonable deal. Overpay is the only way you get him. Unless he wants out, of which there is no indication

Giants fucked up not signing Penn last year. They might still be playing if they had.

So, I say don't make the same mistake twice

the guarantees, signing bonuses, whatever..People keep talking about the $200 million we "spent" last year, yet only about $80(?) million is guaranteed in some way. And, it's amortized

In comment 13342668 Vanzetti said:

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Cincy is 44 million under the cap. They can match any offer so you hav e to make sure the offer is high enough that they don't match So forget about some reasonable deal. Overpay is the only way you get him. Unless he wants out, of which there is no indication Giants fucked up not signing Penn last year. They might still be playing if they had. So, I say don't make the same mistake twice

Sorry Vanzetti you FINALLY need to get the facts straight with Penn..We made zero mistake(s) with him..He was at the airport for his scheduled flight to see us, when the Raiders called and gave him what he wanted..His allegiance was to the Raiders. As long as they ponied up, which they did at the eleventh hour, he was remaining a Raider..

In comment 13342605 Stan in LA said:

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He's only 32 and a better player. A 3rd and a 5th should do it.

Come on. Why would the Browns do that? They could get much more for Thomas. Heck, why not offer Dallas a 2nd and a 5th for T. Smith while we're drinking?

I just wouldn't have any guaranteed past 2 years is my point, maybe even 1.

In comment 13342671 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 13342605 Stan in LA said: Quote: He's only 32 and a better player. A 3rd and a 5th should do it. Come on. Why would the Browns do that? They could get much more for Thomas. Heck, why not offer Dallas a 2nd and a 5th for T. Smith while we're drinking?

Because Stan said so?

Why the fuck would Cleveland give him away for 2 mid level picks? If we were in the same boat we'd be furious. He still has 2 years left, this isn't the last deal of his contract. There's zero reason for Cleveland to quickly get rid of him, zero.

Signing 35 year olds is a dangerous game.

You guys are crazy.

if someone approached Cinci, with a more than fair offer, they would jump at it.....I just hope it is not the Giants.....I am leery of signing someone to their last contract....and unfortunately, free agents, especially older ones, tend to age quickly when they become Giants......must be something in that Jersey air.....

inquire, but it seems like he'll stay with the Bengals, or get more than we'd be willing to offer for a 35 year old LT. My guess is he's not a Giant next season.

In comment 13342623 jcn56 said:

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all that aside, I doubt he leaves Cincy.

I think he does.

Factor is Reese. He can't ignore the issue like he did last season.

In comment 13342702 Toth029 said:

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In comment 13342623 jcn56 said: Quote: all that aside, I doubt he leaves Cincy. I think he does. Factor is Reese. He can't ignore the issue like he did last season.

Which issue? LT? How did he ignore it?

He had a rookie who had an up and down season in his rookie season starting at OLT from day one with a high ankle sprain in the middle. Was there any reason he should've immediately moved Flowers to a different part of the line and filled LT?

Then there's the matter of who was available - of all the FAs, who do you think we *should* have signed? The only one you could make a case for was Penn, and it seems like he had no intention of leaving Oakland.

He is not a QB. Odds are so far against you for any position player not QB in the NFL at that age that it should be a non-starter as an idea.

And this player probably has enough leverage that there is really no way to structure a play-for-pay contract that puts all or most of the falling of a cliff risk on the player.

As someone to rely upon as a solution to offensive line issues and see how that works out for you.

and Brown was 37 when the Giants signed him and he was supposed to be just depth, and it turned out the old man could still play and he ended up starting for the Giants as a stop gap. I'm fine with Whitworth as a stopgap if the Giants can't find a better option going into the 2017 season. Upgrade from Flowers is one of the keys for 2017.

In comment 13342670 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 13342668 Vanzetti said: Quote: Cincy is 44 million under the cap. They can match any offer so you hav e to make sure the offer is high enough that they don't match So forget about some reasonable deal. Overpay is the only way you get him. Unless he wants out, of which there is no indication Giants fucked up not signing Penn last year. They might still be playing if they had. So, I say don't make the same mistake twice Sorry Vanzetti you FINALLY need to get the facts straight with Penn..We made zero mistake(s) with him..He was at the airport for his scheduled flight to see us, when the Raiders called and gave him what he wanted..His allegiance was to the Raiders. As long as they ponied up, which they did at the eleventh hour, he was remaining a Raider..

Sorry BB56. Giants wanted Penn to play RT. That was the stumbling block. If they had gone after Penn early in the process as a LT, he would have been a Giant. But they thought Flowers could do it.

In comment 13342750 Vanzetti said:

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In comment 13342670 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13342668 Vanzetti said: Quote: Cincy is 44 million under the cap. They can match any offer so you hav e to make sure the offer is high enough that they don't match So forget about some reasonable deal. Overpay is the only way you get him. Unless he wants out, of which there is no indication Giants fucked up not signing Penn last year. They might still be playing if they had. So, I say don't make the same mistake twice Sorry Vanzetti you FINALLY need to get the facts straight with Penn..We made zero mistake(s) with him..He was at the airport for his scheduled flight to see us, when the Raiders called and gave him what he wanted..His allegiance was to the Raiders. As long as they ponied up, which they did at the eleventh hour, he was remaining a Raider.. Sorry BB56. Giants wanted Penn to play RT. That was the stumbling block. If they had gone after Penn early in the process as a LT, he would have been a Giant. But they thought Flowers could do it.

There was NO STUMBLING BLOCK, you're not "hearing" me..The Raiders didn't let him get on the plane. Period. He was coming here. Had his plane reservations..If, hypothetically he had flown in, met with the Giants and left without a contract, THEN AND ONLY THEN could you speculate about RT..But he never made it here, so there was zero stumbling block..What about this aren't you getting?

Draft Taylor Moton in the 2nd Round to play RT....move Justin Pugh to LT for this season..

LT Pugh
LG Flowers
OC Richburg
RG Warford
RT Moton

Roadgraders at LG, RG and RT
Hopeful Improvement at C
Enough smarts and Technique at LT

a priority like they did Snacks, Jenkins, and Vernon. If they did it would have been a different ball game. We came in late to the OL market. That changes everything. On top of that it was reported we had interest in 4 LTs but we wanted them as RTs. That kind of kills any real chance at landing an OL.

My mentality has been and will continue to be that there needs to be competition. If Flowers wins the job because he truly beat out a worthy opponent then fucking great. That has yet to happen the last years. Reese himself said the goal of free agency is to try to fill all your holes so you can draft for the best player available. That has not happened recently. In Reese's defense, although it is a group effort, the last 2 drafts have been a big improvement. So, we are tending in the right direction. But, just like the offense this last year, the slate gets wiped clean and nothing is guaranteed. McAdoo had a great first year but we cannot assume that it will continue. The defense had a remarkable year but we cannot assume that will continue. Our boat had leaks and we pulled our finger out of one hole to fill another. We cannot ignore our defense this offseason like we did our offense last season. If our defense stays the same we still need to add depth along the DL. Our DEs played way too many snaps. They need breaks to be at 100% every play they are on the field. We need more of a pass rush inside to collapse the pocket. We only have 1 first round pick and that one player will not cure all of our woes so take the player that will give us the best long term production so we don't have another hole ro fill in 3 years.

last year when Flowers was projected to improve? Fans keep mistaking a gameplan not working out with having none at all.

The plan didn't work, therefore there was no plan.

You don't spend a top 10 pick on a left tackle, then drop a boatload of money on a left tackle after one season.

In comment 13342769 robbieballs2003 said:

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a priority like they did Snacks, Jenkins, and Vernon. If they did it would have been a different ball game. We came in late to the OL market. That changes everything. On top of that it was reported we had interest in 4 LTs but we wanted them as RTs. That kind of kills any real chance at landing an OL. My mentality has been and will continue to be that there needs to be competition. If Flowers wins the job because he truly beat out a worthy opponent then fucking great. That has yet to happen the last years. Reese himself said the goal of free agency is to try to fill all your holes so you can draft for the best player available. That has not happened recently. In Reese's defense, although it is a group effort, the last 2 drafts have been a big improvement. So, we are tending in the right direction. But, just like the offense this last year, the slate gets wiped clean and nothing is guaranteed. McAdoo had a great first year but we cannot assume that it will continue. The defense had a remarkable year but we cannot assume that will continue. Our boat had leaks and we pulled our finger out of one hole to fill another. We cannot ignore our defense this offseason like we did our offense last season. If our defense stays the same we still need to add depth along the DL. Our DEs played way too many snaps. They need breaks to be at 100% every play they are on the field. We need more of a pass rush inside to collapse the pocket. We only have 1 first round pick and that one player will not cure all of our woes so take the player that will give us the best long term production so we don't have another hole ro fill in 3 years.

Look at the OT market last year and come back and let us know who you wanted. Osemele would be playing the position for basically the first time (and he ended up a guard in Oakland), and got paid a shit ton of money. And the rest - stunk. Penn was the only real option, and was basically using several teams (that he didn't visit) as leverage to re-sign.

picked a guy in the draft and say "damn the torpedoes...full speed ahead!".

Flowers showed us nothing to suggest that he is improving his game in 2016. He wasn't very good as a rookie (albeit tough) and we all hoped it was the ankle/leg injury and learning curve issues as a young guy.

But its 16 games later and he immediately exposes his flaws the second we call a passing pattern that takes 2.5 seconds.

I am not saying give up on him, but putting him back out there as the "de facto" LT in 2017 is simply reckless...

In comment 13342668 Vanzetti said:

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Cincy is 44 million under the cap. They can match any offer so you hav e to make sure the offer is high enough that they don't match So forget about some reasonable deal. Overpay is the only way you get him. Unless he wants out, of which there is no indication Giants fucked up not signing Penn last year. They might still be playing if they had. So, I say don't make the same mistake twice

Penn wasn't interested in playing for NY.

but reading it closely. He's reporting there are rumors the Giants might be interested. He didn't even provide a link to the rumors. So that's pretty damned thin sourcing for the Giants interest.

someone read BBI...

In comment 13342789 Jimmy Googs said:

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picked a guy in the draft and say "damn the torpedoes...full speed ahead!". Flowers showed us nothing to suggest that he is improving his game in 2016. He wasn't very good as a rookie (albeit tough) and we all hoped it was the ankle/leg injury and learning curve issues as a young guy. But its 16 games later and he immediately exposes his flaws the second we call a passing pattern that takes 2.5 seconds. I am not saying give up on him, but putting him back out there as the "de facto" LT in 2017 is simply reckless...

On this I agree with you. It's perfectly fine to start questioning what you can get out of him at this point. You now have a responsibility to not waste this defense or the QB.

In comment 13342798 Jimmy Googs said:

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someone read BBI...

He he he..�

In comment 13342796 81_Great_Dane said:

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but reading it closely. He's reporting there are rumors the Giants might be interested. He didn't even provide a link to the rumors. So that's pretty damned thin sourcing for the Giants interest.

Oh absolutely. What I found interesting is that someone outside of BBI and the NY media knows what our needs are..It's no secret of course, but usually other teams bloggers report on their team and teams within their division and have a passing interest (at best) about the other conference, imv

And that was my big concern last year with the OL. Competition needed to be brought in for Flowers. That was not debatable imo. The issues with Flaherty were real. You could not ignore them. Someone had to be brought in or have Pugh truly fighting for that position and bring in a quality guard. I really dont care. Okung, Clady, Penn, someone else were legitimate possibilities. You guys can defend Reese in this area all you want. A GM's job is to give the coaching staff the necessary players to compete. Keeping your fingers crossed that Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Newhouse were enough is extremely poor judgment. It is not hidlndsight. This was mentioned by numerous people including myself all last offseason. Pugh also has a history with missing games. Another starting caliber OL should have been brought in. Simple.

LT onto field in 2017 and make Flowers compete for another spot. Its not like we are asking the other pro-bowlers on the O-Line to step aside.

Flowers has more than enough talent to find another spot on our line. He needs to get his ass kicked by the coaches and they need to tell him he is losing his LT job until further notice.

My guess is he steps up. And if he doesn't then we know now that we shouldn't waste another year of Eli and the owner's money on JPP.

In comment 13342808 Jimmy Googs said:

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LT onto field in 2017 and make Flowers compete for another spot. Its not like we are asking the other pro-bowlers on the O-Line to step aside. Flowers has more than enough talent to find another spot on our line. He needs to get his ass kicked by the coaches and they need to tell him he is losing his LT job until further notice. My guess is he steps up. And if he doesn't then we know now that we shouldn't waste another year of Eli and the owner's money on JPP.

He doesn’t need to be fully removed from competing for LT though. His issue is not talent. It is just poor technique and I am assuming not working on improving because it has been 2 years of the same issues. Getting competition should light a fire under his ass. Human nature tells us that if there is no threat of losing your job that you can and most likely will get complacent. Having a legitimate chance at losing your job then he is going to have to fight for it by making the necessary improvements. I don't hate Flowers and I don't hate Reese but I would have handled this situation totally different from the get go.

In comment 13342805 robbieballs2003 said:

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And that was my big concern last year with the OL. Competition needed to be brought in for Flowers. That was not debatable imo. The issues with Flaherty were real. You could not ignore them. Someone had to be brought in or have Pugh truly fighting for that position and bring in a quality guard. I really dont care. Okung, Clady, Penn, someone else were legitimate possibilities. You guys can defend Reese in this area all you want. A GM's job is to give the coaching staff the necessary players to compete. Keeping your fingers crossed that Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Newhouse were enough is extremely poor judgment. It is not hidlndsight. This was mentioned by numerous people including myself all last offseason. Pugh also has a history with missing games. Another starting caliber OL should have been brought in. Simple.

I don't think anyone's arguing against you, simply pointing out that issue, as always, is cost and availability of starting-caliber players.

Osemele got $60m from the raiders to play guard, and it was a deal that shocked the league.

Clady was a trade, and a risk, and it didn't work out. He got hurt again.

Okung gambled on himself with a 1 year deal, but he didn't play particularly well either.

Penn never got on a plane.

So it goes back to what was available and at what cost. Starting quality players weren't just sitting around begging for jobs.

In comment 13342816 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13342805 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: And that was my big concern last year with the OL. Competition needed to be brought in for Flowers. That was not debatable imo. The issues with Flaherty were real. You could not ignore them. Someone had to be brought in or have Pugh truly fighting for that position and bring in a quality guard. I really dont care. Okung, Clady, Penn, someone else were legitimate possibilities. You guys can defend Reese in this area all you want. A GM's job is to give the coaching staff the necessary players to compete. Keeping your fingers crossed that Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Newhouse were enough is extremely poor judgment. It is not hidlndsight. This was mentioned by numerous people including myself all last offseason. Pugh also has a history with missing games. Another starting caliber OL should have been brought in. Simple. I don't think anyone's arguing against you, simply pointing out that issue, as always, is cost and availability of starting-caliber players. Osemele got $60m from the raiders to play guard, and it was a deal that shocked the league. Clady was a trade, and a risk, and it didn't work out. He got hurt again. Okung gambled on himself with a 1 year deal, but he didn't play particularly well either. Penn never got on a plane. So it goes back to what was available and at what cost. Starting quality players weren't just sitting around begging for jobs.

But, like I said before, we came in very late for Penn. If he was one of our top priorities then that changes the game. It didn't even have to be him. It could have been Mitchell. We just needed another starting caliber OL. Now, maybe he isn't a great choice either. He made the pro bowl but I think also gave up the most sacks for a RT. Even if nobody was brought it, I think Pugh should have been a player competing for LT. He played much better than Flowers did at LT 2 years ago. I get the whole "having a strong interior" with our type of offense because, in theory, the ball should he out before an edge guy can get to the QB but Flowers proved our coaching staff wrong.

In comment 13342799 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 13342789 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: picked a guy in the draft and say "damn the torpedoes...full speed ahead!". Flowers showed us nothing to suggest that he is improving his game in 2016. He wasn't very good as a rookie (albeit tough) and we all hoped it was the ankle/leg injury and learning curve issues as a young guy. But its 16 games later and he immediately exposes his flaws the second we call a passing pattern that takes 2.5 seconds. I am not saying give up on him, but putting him back out there as the "de facto" LT in 2017 is simply reckless... On this I agree with you. It's perfectly fine to start questioning what you can get out of him at this point. You now have a responsibility to not waste this defense or the QB.

I've not brought this up, but I'm sure the front office is thinking of it. At the end of this coming year, Flowers must be notified by the team of it's intent to pick up the 5th year option. If he remains as the LT, then the 5th year option for draft picks in the top 10 is 12.8 million for 2017. By 2019, the figure will be greater. They have this year to determine if they have a player that is worth picking up his 5th year option. His body of work at LT would conclude that he is not worth nearly 13 million. From that conclusion, then we only have him for 2 more years.

It would be wiser to find out where he'll play best so they can determine his value to the team going forward.

We'd have a very good to great OL blocking Eli's blindside. Possibly the best left side of an OL in the NFL. Give him 3 years 30 million with 15 million guaranteed. Find a player to develop behind him. He's a good leader that wouldn't just help the QB. He'd help everybody on the Oline while also protecting Eli for the rest of their careers. Whitworth has only missed a single game in his career. He had the 2nd highest grade among LTs from Pro Football Focus. He allowed only 14 pressures in 2016 for comparison Ereck Flowers allowed 60 pressures. That's a huge difference. Move Flowers to RG. Go after a RT like Ricky Wagner. Our Oline would go from one of the worst to top half of the NFL for sure. Whitworth-Pugh-Richburg-Flowers-Wagner has potential to be a dominate Oline. It would help Perkins in the run game. Which would help play action passes and also allow Odell/King/Lewis to get down the field more often.

In comment 13342833 Diver_Down said:

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In comment 13342799 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 13342789 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: picked a guy in the draft and say "damn the torpedoes...full speed ahead!". Flowers showed us nothing to suggest that he is improving his game in 2016. He wasn't very good as a rookie (albeit tough) and we all hoped it was the ankle/leg injury and learning curve issues as a young guy. But its 16 games later and he immediately exposes his flaws the second we call a passing pattern that takes 2.5 seconds. I am not saying give up on him, but putting him back out there as the "de facto" LT in 2017 is simply reckless... On this I agree with you. It's perfectly fine to start questioning what you can get out of him at this point. You now have a responsibility to not waste this defense or the QB. I've not brought this up, but I'm sure the front office is thinking of it. At the end of this coming year, Flowers must be notified by the team of it's intent to pick up the 5th year option. If he remains as the LT, then the 5th year option for draft picks in the top 10 is 12.8 million for 2017. By 2019, the figure will be greater. They have this year to determine if they have a player that is worth picking up his 5th year option. His body of work at LT would conclude that he is not worth nearly 13 million. From that conclusion, then we only have him for 2 more years. It would be wiser to find out where he'll play best so they can determine his value to the team going forward.

I'm confused. Next season's end will be his 3rd complete season. How does the 5th year option come into play?

In comment 13342839 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 13342833 Diver_Down said: Quote: In comment 13342799 Ten Ton Hammer said: On this I agree with you. It's perfectly fine to start questioning what you can get out of him at this point. You now have a responsibility to not waste this defense or the QB. I've not brought this up, but I'm sure the front office is thinking of it. At the end of this coming year, Flowers must be notified by the team of it's intent to pick up the 5th year option. If he remains as the LT, then the 5th year option for draft picks in the top 10 is 12.8 million for 2017. By 2019, the figure will be greater. They have this year to determine if they have a player that is worth picking up his 5th year option. His body of work at LT would conclude that he is not worth nearly 13 million. From that conclusion, then we only have him for 2 more years. It would be wiser to find out where he'll play best so they can determine his value to the team going forward. I'm confused. Next season's end will be his 3rd complete season. How does the 5th year option come into play?

A player must be notified of a team's intent to pick up the 5th year option at the end of the player's 3rd contract year. So this coming year, the Giants must determine what value Ereck has to the team. If they continue with EF at LT, unless there is a miraculous improvement, then the business decision is that he won't be worth the current rate of 13 mil (which it will be much higher by 2019). This year if they find out he is the franchise's answer at RG, then it will be much cheaper to pick up the 5th year option.

That is correct and a very good point. This can go so many ways. If he does play LT and plays well that would be the most interesting situation. If he plays like shit or is moved to guard that is another situation with a different price tag. Imho, I think they do not pick up that option and use that as leverage to negotiate a long term deal for moderate money. If they pick up the option then they are saying he is worth that money and they are giving him a bargaining chip. A lot of teams have not been picking up these options on players lately.

In comment 13342845 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

In comment 13342839 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13342833 Diver_Down said: Quote: In comment 13342799 Ten Ton Hammer said: On this I agree with you. It's perfectly fine to start questioning what you can get out of him at this point. You now have a responsibility to not waste this defense or the QB. I've not brought this up, but I'm sure the front office is thinking of it. At the end of this coming year, Flowers must be notified by the team of it's intent to pick up the 5th year option. If he remains as the LT, then the 5th year option for draft picks in the top 10 is 12.8 million for 2017. By 2019, the figure will be greater. They have this year to determine if they have a player that is worth picking up his 5th year option. His body of work at LT would conclude that he is not worth nearly 13 million. From that conclusion, then we only have him for 2 more years. It would be wiser to find out where he'll play best so they can determine his value to the team going forward. I'm confused. Next season's end will be his 3rd complete season. How does the 5th year option come into play? A player must be notified of a team's intent to pick up the 5th year option at the end of the player's 3rd contract year. So this coming year, the Giants must determine what value Ereck has to the team. If they continue with EF at LT, unless there is a miraculous improvement, then the business decision is that he won't be worth the current rate of 13 mil (which it will be much higher by 2019). This year if they find out he is the franchise's answer at RG, then it will be much cheaper to pick up the 5th year option.

Gotcha. Thanks

just that he should be told he hasn't earned that role yet for 2017. But please display to us you deserve it.

In the meanwhile get some damn competition in the door this spring.

In comment 13342880 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

just that he should be told he hasn't earned that role yet for 2017. But please display to us you deserve it. In the meanwhile get some damn competition in the door this spring.

And he probably will be told exactly that

but I'd rather lose a couple of mid round picks (say a 3rd this year and 4th next year) and get a 32 year old Thomas than sign a 35 year old Whitworth.

was that the OL had played well during the last part of 2015. So they figured Flowers and Richburg would continue to improve and Jerry and Newhouse would be solid, low-cost stop-gaps.

Now if Flowers had improved that would have been a good plan. I actually trusted the Giants brass and expected the OL to be fine. But the Giants were dead wrong and a lot of people here were right.

With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT.

In comment 13342883 chris r said:

Quote:

but I'd rather lose a couple of mid round picks (say a 3rd this year and 4th next year) and get a 32 year old Thomas than sign a 35 year old Whitworth.

And I'd rather Cleveland just gave him to us and he played for free - but neither of those is an option. Don't you think someone - ANYONE - in the NFL would have offered Cleveland a 3rd rounder by now? Why do you think Thomas is available at fire sale prices and hasn't been moved? Is there some glut of quality LT play around the league that I've missed?

In comment 13342972 Vanzetti said:

Quote:

was that the OL had played well during the last part of 2015. So they figured Flowers and Richburg would continue to improve and Jerry and Newhouse would be solid, low-cost stop-gaps. Now if Flowers had improved that would have been a good plan. I actually trusted the Giants brass and expected the OL to be fine. But the Giants were dead wrong and a lot of people here were right. With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT.

Quote:

With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT.

Penn not getting on the Plane is a VERIFIABLE FACT..Saying the REAL REASON was that Penn didn't want to play RT is strictly your opinion and a NON-VERIFIABLE FACT.

In comment 13342981 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13342883 chris r said: Quote: but I'd rather lose a couple of mid round picks (say a 3rd this year and 4th next year) and get a 32 year old Thomas than sign a 35 year old Whitworth. And I'd rather Cleveland just gave him to us and he played for free - but neither of those is an option. Don't you think someone - ANYONE - in the NFL would have offered Cleveland a 3rd rounder by now? Why do you think Thomas is available at fire sale prices and hasn't been moved? Is there some glut of quality LT play around the league that I've missed?

Post of the day. Gotta love the "Just trade a 3rd and a 5th for a HOF LT." crowd.

as well as all the Penn nonsense from all the fans who were spending the night at his house and know what his intentions were are absolutely hilarious.

Did he get on the plane? Was he on the plane then got off? Did his car breakdown on the way to the airport?

Just nonsense.

to fix this offensive line and he knows a lot of anxious eyes are on him and are watching him closely. If he can bring in just 2 starting quality O linemen it will be a home run for him......

In comment 13343128 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13342972 Vanzetti said: Quote: was that the OL had played well during the last part of 2015. So they figured Flowers and Richburg would continue to improve and Jerry and Newhouse would be solid, low-cost stop-gaps. Now if Flowers had improved that would have been a good plan. I actually trusted the Giants brass and expected the OL to be fine. But the Giants were dead wrong and a lot of people here were right. With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Quote: With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Penn not getting on the Plane is a VERIFIABLE FACT..Saying the REAL REASON was that Penn didn't want to play RT is strictly your opinion and a NON-VERIFIABLE FACT.

BB56
You always have to be right.

In comment 13343415 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 13343128 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13342972 Vanzetti said: Quote: was that the OL had played well during the last part of 2015. So they figured Flowers and Richburg would continue to improve and Jerry and Newhouse would be solid, low-cost stop-gaps. Now if Flowers had improved that would have been a good plan. I actually trusted the Giants brass and expected the OL to be fine. But the Giants were dead wrong and a lot of people here were right. With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Quote: With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Penn not getting on the Plane is a VERIFIABLE FACT..Saying the REAL REASON was that Penn didn't want to play RT is strictly your opinion and a NON-VERIFIABLE FACT. BB56 You always have to be right.

Listen Jackass, not sure why you haven't been banned yet, but what kind of imbecilic statement is that? I stated facts, he stated opinions. Ergo, I have to always be right?

He provides an instant upgrade and stabilizing presence at LT.

He won't require a long term commitment which gives the Giants a window to work with Flowers. While a segment of BBI may have given up on Flowers I assure you the Giants haven't.

He's a free agent so giving up valuable assets to obtain his services isn't necessary. We need those picks. This roster still needs fortifying at multiple positions.

In comment 13343440 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 13343415 joe48 said: Quote: In comment 13343128 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 13342972 Vanzetti said: Quote: was that the OL had played well during the last part of 2015. So they figured Flowers and Richburg would continue to improve and Jerry and Newhouse would be solid, low-cost stop-gaps. Now if Flowers had improved that would have been a good plan. I actually trusted the Giants brass and expected the OL to be fine. But the Giants were dead wrong and a lot of people here were right. With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Quote: With all due respect to BB56 and others who believe Penn was not going to sign no matter what the Giants did, the real reason is that they wanted him to play RT and serve as the backup at LT. Those are just the facts. Penn wound up signing a very reasonable deal for 7 million per--very reasonable for a LT. But Giants were never going to pay a RT that money and so they lost out. It was not really a mistake on their part but a misjudgment. They thought Flowers would improve. They were wrong. The mistake was probably not having a backupo plan but it is hard to have a legit fallback option at a premium position like LT. Penn not getting on the Plane is a VERIFIABLE FACT..Saying the REAL REASON was that Penn didn't want to play RT is strictly your opinion and a NON-VERIFIABLE FACT. BB56 You always have to be right. Listen Jackass, not sure why you haven't been banned yet, but what kind of imbecilic statement is that? I stated facts, he stated opinions. Ergo, I have to always be right?

Right again BB 56.

While a gamble is almost a must. Eli has a few years left. Adding a vet who
An at least play the position is worth it. Flowers is so
Young. 3 years from now he may be a totallly different player or
Out of the league. We need an OL


Reese And his staff need to figure
This out