but no way he's playing LT, I'd say it's more like a 50-50 proposition he is at RT or G. And if he starts the season at RT he will eventually be moved to G, and he will then either thrive or be cut, probably before the 2019 season.
I laughed. But if they don't pick up his 5th year option, he could be a security guard to protect the players from the pesky media. So far he has demonstrated more push against Jordan than opposing DEs.
You take a young, raw, but physically talented OL, immediately through him at LT (the most difficult spot on the OL) long before he is ready, then want to cry and cut him when he struggles. No doubt, he has technique flaws that need to be worked out, but he is a nasty beast and can overpower anyone he gets his hands on. He may never be a NFL caliber LT, but he should one day be a beast at RG or RT.
Flowers just started 16 games at LT for a team that went 11-5. I was as down about the O as anyone but Flowers not making the team!? That's nuts. My guess, for whatever it's worth, is that he'll be starting at LT again.
Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.
Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...
to save $4.5M for 2017? Well he's not getting cut that's for sure. He may not be LT material but I still think he'd be great for the RT. At the very least a great OG. The only other possibility is a trade and I only see that making the OL even weaker.
Sad truth is he will probably end up one of our best on the OL but everyone is so focused on his struggles at LT they can't see that. Like I said, I think he can be a great RT or maybe a dominant OG. Remember Brandon Scherff went ahead of him in the draft that year to the Redskins (and many of us here wanted him). He's currently a very good OG.
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
Absolutely. And it is a reason for my response above. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion on Flowers when the premise of the thread begins in such a manner.
That being said. I want Flowers to have success. Him being successful will translate into the Giants being successful. But this year is critical for the Franchise to determine his value going forward. Is he the future at LT for the Giants? Quite possibly. Is it also possible that he is a dominant RG for the next couple of years before being kicked out to LT? Hopefully. But if the franchise doesn't determine his value this year, they won't be picking up a 5th year option on his contract. As I mentioned in another thread, the player must be notified at the end of the player's 3rd contract year of the intent to pick up the 5th year option. The 2017 5th year option for LT is 13 million. It will be more by 2019. Based on his performance at LT through 2 years, the Giants are likely not thinking his 5th year option will be a sound business decision.
5th year option seems like a pipe-dream at this point
as is committing $13 million dollars for an extra year of Flowers.
I still think he'll get it together at another spot on the O-line but the fit at LT is clearly waning. And mentioned before, its not like it should take much to win jobs across our O-Line.
He is not worthless, just likely a complacent situation for a guy that is really young...
Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.
Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...
good OLT and all (a big ALL) he needs to do is work hard to improve/hone his techniques, then a second year with Solari could (should?) very well see him take a leap..Small or big depends on how fast he gets it..
I prefer to be positive here, especially given his age..
I have always like Beatty too. Never bought that he is too soft or disinterested. etc.. He broke his leg doing what he typically does on running plays; he blocked his man and then got down field and was hauling ass to help push the pile... Yes, he got bull rushed and Jared Allen made him look foolish. I am hoping that that Mac & Solari felt Beatty was not an option at RT with Newhouse & Hart having a decent competition there. They didn't want to move Flowers when we had the opportunities to add a veteran LT last year. During the season they wouldn't even bench him no matter how loud we were all screaming for it.
I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.
This offseason we need to bring in talent on the offensive line, but we can only hope there are upgrades available to us. We might have to make a trade or two to either acquire a guy like Joe Thomas or move up if necessary for a starting LT in the draft IF one is even there in this draft. RG should be acquired as well as another good option at Center should Richburg fail to up his game. We must build this line to protect Eli and run the ball with some authority. We must be able to put Eli under center and run play action again.
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
I think the team has decided that Justin Pugh is their LG now and into the future and did not slide him over so that he could settle in at LG. As for Will B., I believe that Mac didn't want him and was only going to play him if he absolutely had to.
Flowers still remains the most physically gifted athlete on this offensive line. If any of our current crop are going to become a pro bowl lineman it's probably still him with the best chance by a wide margin. He can turn it around if he really puts his mind to it.
He just completed his second full season as a starter at the young age of 22. I REPEAT THE YOUNG AGE OF 22. There are OTs in this year's draft that are older than Flowers. The play calling didn't do him any favors either, as the coach rarely sent help to his side with a chip block from the running back or TE. On the flip side, he actually started the year of well with no hits or sacks allowed with only five pressures in the first three games before the wheels fell off.
This "consensus" incompetent front office, who picks our players, will never provide MORE evidence of thier incompetence by giving up on the 9th pick they made in the draft. IMO
This "consensus" incompetent front office, who picks our players, will never provide MORE evidence of thier incompetence by giving up on the 9th pick they made in the draft. IMO
but he seems like a very bad first round pick. I don't see him as the LT that is for sure. No doubt, Reese is disillusioned with his absolutely shitty play so who knows what the plans are for him.
We might have a hard time smelling 8-9 wins with the current OL, especially with a LT that probably isn't one, and a C that is now an X factor after last year, and a right side, uh,yeah.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.
We might have a hard time smelling 8-9 wins with the current OL, especially with a LT that probably isn't one, and a C that is now an X factor after last year, and a right side, uh,yeah.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.
The point about 17 schedule is valid. Status quo will result in 2 or 3 losses.
They are reaching a decision point with Flowers . It is nowhere near the time when they will be forced to burn the village in order to save it. I'm not convinced his physical attributes are as evident as is usually mentioned. But he is protected by what Young used to call Big Person Theory. They've invested in him .
My guess is he will end up having a Gordon King-type career. A guy who starts for a number of years after being a #1, without ever attaining the level of play initially expected from him. The one thing about a 2-year playing sample is that there is not along list of corrective or remedial actions that they can use. Look, it's not that complicated. They have thrown everything they have at him,
It's easy to think he can plug in at RG. That he is like William Roberts. Big Billy had much sweeter feet. My guess ROT; I don't think he's a guard .
The only thing that got me to the bottom of this thread was the ease of scrolling down of the 'Back to the Corner' button and sheer laziness to move my mouse up to the back button.
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.
Yes, it is rare for it to happen. I guess it wouldn't make sense to cut him even after next year but without better play, I would lose hope in him ever turning the corner. It aeems clear to me that Reese is frustrated with him.
during his rookie contract? Don't make it seem like this will never happen.
You are absolutely correct. I was talking about Ereck Flowers. If you are trying to compare a Top 10 pick and a player that was picked in the 3rd round as being held to the same standard, it's not how the world works. I suppose Ereck could be videotaped kicking dogs and beating women while driving drunk but in the context that the poster that I was replying to was insinuating that he would be cut based on lack of improvement in his play, I will stand by my definitive statement.
So to eliminate any future confusion and hypotheticals, Ereck Flowers will never be cut during his rookie contract based on his performance.
Unless they want to try Pugh or Newhouse (who played there before), there is no one on the roster until free agency or the draft. And if they don't sign one or draft one, guess who the LT will be?
If he is not coachable, he needs a wake up call. Just a question of how big a hammer will work.
Than anything else. He will be 23 in April. If he didn't have the physical tools I could understand this thread. This is not a 28 year old guy with no potential upside.
The Giants should be looking to upgrade at LT while they work with Flowers at another position. He simply hasn't been good enough to put next season at risk. The obvious player to sign is Andrew Whitworth.
He wasn't "abysmal." There are shades of gray between terrible and what we hope he'll be.
As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.
But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.
He wasn't "abysmal." There are shades of gray between terrible and what we hope he'll be.
As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.
But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.
All good points but one thing is that LT is a position that you do not want too much inconsistency. An inconsistent LT can be a disaster. It is simikar to when people defenddd Dodge's inconsistency and claimed he just needed some tweaks. Inconsistent punters are not in the NFL regardless of leg strength. Inconsistent LTs wont last long. We can't live with gray at LT much longer.
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.
.
Maybe it's the smell of bringing back a 32 yr old lineman who hasn't played since 2014?
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
You could be right on Flowers. My dilemma as a fan is that he's still ridiculously young, has terrific physical ability by all accounts and just needs to master some technique. Perhaps it's easier said than done, but sometimes we might need to roll the dice. That said, what they do in FA and the draft MIGHT tell us what Solari (who is acknowledged as one of the best) thinks about Flowers and what he can or cannot do with him..Just my two cents
The question should be at what position on the OL. I would prefer that Flowers be tried at RT or RG and that we sign Whitworth to a 2 year FA contract in March.
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
Two different issues, unrelated.
First - if after two years Flowers doesn't have the LT spot locked down, it's a disappointment. That doesn't mean you abandon it after year 1. If every player who played a down at LT was scrapped after not doing well his first year, the position wouldn't exist anymore. Plenty of these guys struggle for a few years until they get their bearings, regardless of draft position. Some never get it - hopefully we don't have that with Flowers.
As for Pat's observation - I hope it came with the caveat that several of those first rounders suffered career ending injuries, otherwise, it's not much of an observation. Unless the implication was that Kenny Phillips, David Wilson and Hakeem Nicks were all not worthy of first round selections. Two of those guys helped win a Super Bowl. And that bunch also includes JPP - is the implication that he wasn't worth re-signing?
Aaron Ross and Amukamara round out the guys who weren't resigned. Both were quality starters who helped win a Super Bowl.
The shots at Reese are so poor it's almost laughable. The guy has made misfires that are worthy of pointing out and criticizing, but blaming him for not giving up on a first year player by bringing in a replacement, or not re-signing guys who were too injured to keep playing.
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
I laughed. But if they don't pick up his 5th year option, he could be a security guard to protect the players from the pesky media. So far he has demonstrated more push against Jordan than opposing DEs.
Big year for him. He's either a lock for a football career or quickly on his way out of the league.
Thanks, Tom!
Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.
Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...
Sad truth is he will probably end up one of our best on the OL but everyone is so focused on his struggles at LT they can't see that. Like I said, I think he can be a great RT or maybe a dominant OG. Remember Brandon Scherff went ahead of him in the draft that year to the Redskins (and many of us here wanted him). He's currently a very good OG.
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
Absolutely. And it is a reason for my response above. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion on Flowers when the premise of the thread begins in such a manner.
That being said. I want Flowers to have success. Him being successful will translate into the Giants being successful. But this year is critical for the Franchise to determine his value going forward. Is he the future at LT for the Giants? Quite possibly. Is it also possible that he is a dominant RG for the next couple of years before being kicked out to LT? Hopefully. But if the franchise doesn't determine his value this year, they won't be picking up a 5th year option on his contract. As I mentioned in another thread, the player must be notified at the end of the player's 3rd contract year of the intent to pick up the 5th year option. The 2017 5th year option for LT is 13 million. It will be more by 2019. Based on his performance at LT through 2 years, the Giants are likely not thinking his 5th year option will be a sound business decision.
I still think he'll get it together at another spot on the O-line but the fit at LT is clearly waning. And mentioned before, its not like it should take much to win jobs across our O-Line.
He is not worthless, just likely a complacent situation for a guy that is really young...
the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?
He had a bad year.
He is very young.
He has all the physical tools.
He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.
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he would've demoted him to send a message.
the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?
I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.
It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.
The grass is always greener isn't it?
You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.
He had a bad year.
He is very young.
He has all the physical tools.
He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.
This
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In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:
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he would've demoted him to send a message.
the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?
I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.
It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.
The grass is always greener isn't it?
You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.
Thanks, but try not to paint with such a broad brush. "You guys" that do that tend to expose the fact that you "can't smell your own shit" either.
Always a Beatty fan here. That's a fact.
Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.
Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...
Bingo!
He has struggled, but no more than Robinson, Fisher, Mathews, Joeckel etc had in similar game time
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In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:
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he would've demoted him to send a message.
the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?
I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.
It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.
The grass is always greener isn't it?
You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.
This +1000%. BBI in a nutshell..whichever way the wind is blowing.
Beatty was not popular around here.
I prefer to be positive here, especially given his age..
I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.
This offseason we need to bring in talent on the offensive line, but we can only hope there are upgrades available to us. We might have to make a trade or two to either acquire a guy like Joe Thomas or move up if necessary for a starting LT in the draft IF one is even there in this draft. RG should be acquired as well as another good option at Center should Richburg fail to up his game. We must build this line to protect Eli and run the ball with some authority. We must be able to put Eli under center and run play action again.
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
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thing has snowballed out of control around here.
He had a bad year.
He is very young.
He has all the physical tools.
He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.
This
+2.
Somehow they won 11 games.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.
The point about 17 schedule is valid. Status quo will result in 2 or 3 losses.
They are reaching a decision point with Flowers . It is nowhere near the time when they will be forced to burn the village in order to save it. I'm not convinced his physical attributes are as evident as is usually mentioned. But he is protected by what Young used to call Big Person Theory. They've invested in him .
My guess is he will end up having a Gordon King-type career. A guy who starts for a number of years after being a #1, without ever attaining the level of play initially expected from him. The one thing about a 2-year playing sample is that there is not along list of corrective or remedial actions that they can use. Look, it's not that complicated. They have thrown everything they have at him,
It's easy to think he can plug in at RG. That he is like William Roberts. Big Billy had much sweeter feet. My guess ROT; I don't think he's a guard .
The only thing that got me to the bottom of this thread was the ease of scrolling down of the 'Back to the Corner' button and sheer laziness to move my mouse up to the back button.
then we wouldn't really have a website...
there was really no need for further responses after this
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
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Even ask this question?
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
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In comment 13343397 Giant John said:
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Even ask this question?
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
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In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:
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In comment 13343397 Giant John said:
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Even ask this question?
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.
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In comment 13343423 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:
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In comment 13343397 Giant John said:
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Even ask this question?
Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?
Which of the above is a logical next step?
They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.
Yes, it is rare for it to happen. I guess it wouldn't make sense to cut him even after next year but without better play, I would lose hope in him ever turning the corner. It aeems clear to me that Reese is frustrated with him.
You are absolutely correct. I was talking about Ereck Flowers. If you are trying to compare a Top 10 pick and a player that was picked in the 3rd round as being held to the same standard, it's not how the world works. I suppose Ereck could be videotaped kicking dogs and beating women while driving drunk but in the context that the poster that I was replying to was insinuating that he would be cut based on lack of improvement in his play, I will stand by my definitive statement.
So to eliminate any future confusion and hypotheticals, Ereck Flowers will never be cut during his rookie contract based on his performance.
Looked lost the first two years.... figured it out somehow in the middle of his third season and helped mightily to an unexpected Superbowl win.
If he is not coachable, he needs a wake up call. Just a question of how big a hammer will work.
He would have to improve significantly to make it to the level of bad.
It didn't work out so we moved him to guard and won a championship.
Can we repeat this move with Flowers?
As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.
But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.
As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.
But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.
All good points but one thing is that LT is a position that you do not want too much inconsistency. An inconsistent LT can be a disaster. It is simikar to when people defenddd Dodge's inconsistency and claimed he just needed some tweaks. Inconsistent punters are not in the NFL regardless of leg strength. Inconsistent LTs wont last long. We can't live with gray at LT much longer.
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Incredible.
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Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.
.
Maybe it's the smell of bringing back a 32 yr old lineman who hasn't played since 2014?
Incredible.
Mind boggling, isn't it?
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In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:
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Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
Certainly not replacing Pugh at LG, so it would seem he would be headed for RG or RT. Floweres is not guaranteed to start at either spot.
He will likely be kept for depth at a minimum, hopefully he starts on the right side somewhere. We'll see.
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In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:
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Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.
What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.
Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.
I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
You could be right on Flowers. My dilemma as a fan is that he's still ridiculously young, has terrific physical ability by all accounts and just needs to master some technique. Perhaps it's easier said than done, but sometimes we might need to roll the dice. That said, what they do in FA and the draft MIGHT tell us what Solari (who is acknowledged as one of the best) thinks about Flowers and what he can or cannot do with him..Just my two cents
at least death is now on the record.
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In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:
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Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.
Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
Two different issues, unrelated.
First - if after two years Flowers doesn't have the LT spot locked down, it's a disappointment. That doesn't mean you abandon it after year 1. If every player who played a down at LT was scrapped after not doing well his first year, the position wouldn't exist anymore. Plenty of these guys struggle for a few years until they get their bearings, regardless of draft position. Some never get it - hopefully we don't have that with Flowers.
As for Pat's observation - I hope it came with the caveat that several of those first rounders suffered career ending injuries, otherwise, it's not much of an observation. Unless the implication was that Kenny Phillips, David Wilson and Hakeem Nicks were all not worthy of first round selections. Two of those guys helped win a Super Bowl. And that bunch also includes JPP - is the implication that he wasn't worth re-signing?
Aaron Ross and Amukamara round out the guys who weren't resigned. Both were quality starters who helped win a Super Bowl.
The shots at Reese are so poor it's almost laughable. The guy has made misfires that are worthy of pointing out and criticizing, but blaming him for not giving up on a first year player by bringing in a replacement, or not re-signing guys who were too injured to keep playing.
Aaron Ross and Amukamara round out the guys who weren't resigned. Both were quality starters who helped win a Super Bowl.
And they both had injury issues
Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.
It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.
There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.
Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?
I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
Agree