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Is Flowers A Lock To Make The Roster Next Season?

Rong5611 : 1/29/2017 8:40 am
Put this out there on another thread, thought I'd start another. He's obviously not playing LT next year (hopefully).

Does he make the team as a guard?
Yes.  
Jon in NYC : 1/29/2017 8:47 am : link
/thread
What do you mean...  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2017 8:47 am : link
like a security Guard?
There is no way they cut flowers  
ron mexico : 1/29/2017 8:48 am : link
Not a chance in hell
And that put the odds of him playing left tackle  
ron mexico : 1/29/2017 8:49 am : link
at over 50%
won't be cut  
Glover : 1/29/2017 8:54 am : link
but no way he's playing LT, I'd say it's more like a 50-50 proposition he is at RT or G. And if he starts the season at RT he will eventually be moved to G, and he will then either thrive or be cut, probably before the 2019 season.
100 percent  
bigbb : 1/29/2017 8:55 am : link
Yes
if big mac really wanted to make a splash  
mattlawson : 1/29/2017 8:56 am : link
he would've demoted him to send a message.

the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?
He costs  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2017 9:01 am : link
very little and is still very young. At worst he's a bad LT, at best he's a starter somewhere else with the possibility of being a good player.
RE: What do you mean...  
Diver_Down : 1/29/2017 9:05 am : link
In comment 13343097 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
like a security Guard?


I laughed. But if they don't pick up his 5th year option, he could be a security guard to protect the players from the pesky media. So far he has demonstrated more push against Jordan than opposing DEs.
Not only is he on the team.  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/29/2017 9:06 am : link
Until they have someone obviously better he probably still will be a tackle.
Absolutely ....  
Beer Man : 1/29/2017 9:08 am : link
You take a young, raw, but physically talented OL, immediately through him at LT (the most difficult spot on the OL) long before he is ready, then want to cry and cut him when he struggles. No doubt, he has technique flaws that need to be worked out, but he is a nasty beast and can overpower anyone he gets his hands on. He may never be a NFL caliber LT, but he should one day be a beast at RG or RT.
I have been very critical of Flowers  
robbieballs2003 : 1/29/2017 9:16 am : link
But this thread is just ridiculous.
Ooooops  
Beer Man : 1/29/2017 9:19 am : link
through = throw
Ask next year at this time  
Giants2012 : 1/29/2017 9:24 am : link
and you might have a totally different response.

Big year for him. He's either a lock for a football career or quickly on his way out of the league.

They'll trade him  
Sarcastic Sam : 1/29/2017 9:37 am : link
to the Jags for 3 first round draft picks.

Thanks, Tom!
You need to get a grip  
BillT : 1/29/2017 9:38 am : link
Flowers just started 16 games at LT for a team that went 11-5. I was as down about the O as anyone but Flowers not making the team!? That's nuts. My guess, for whatever it's worth, is that he'll be starting at LT again.
RE: I have been very critical of Flowers  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2017 9:45 am : link
In comment 13343115 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But this thread is just ridiculous.


Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.

Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...
Lose $13M guaranteed over the next 2 years  
USAF NYG Fan : 1/29/2017 9:48 am : link
to save $4.5M for 2017? Well he's not getting cut that's for sure. He may not be LT material but I still think he'd be great for the RT. At the very least a great OG. The only other possibility is a trade and I only see that making the OL even weaker.

Sad truth is he will probably end up one of our best on the OL but everyone is so focused on his struggles at LT they can't see that. Like I said, I think he can be a great RT or maybe a dominant OG. Remember Brandon Scherff went ahead of him in the draft that year to the Redskins (and many of us here wanted him). He's currently a very good OG.
I would assume the #1 conversation  
area junc : 1/29/2017 10:09 am : link
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.

Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.

It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.

There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.

Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?

I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
RE: I have been very critical of Flowers  
Diver_Down : 1/29/2017 10:15 am : link
In comment 13343115 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But this thread is just ridiculous.


Absolutely. And it is a reason for my response above. It's hard to have any meaningful discussion on Flowers when the premise of the thread begins in such a manner.

That being said. I want Flowers to have success. Him being successful will translate into the Giants being successful. But this year is critical for the Franchise to determine his value going forward. Is he the future at LT for the Giants? Quite possibly. Is it also possible that he is a dominant RG for the next couple of years before being kicked out to LT? Hopefully. But if the franchise doesn't determine his value this year, they won't be picking up a 5th year option on his contract. As I mentioned in another thread, the player must be notified at the end of the player's 3rd contract year of the intent to pick up the 5th year option. The 2017 5th year option for LT is 13 million. It will be more by 2019. Based on his performance at LT through 2 years, the Giants are likely not thinking his 5th year option will be a sound business decision.
5th year option seems like a pipe-dream at this point  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2017 10:28 am : link
as is committing $13 million dollars for an extra year of Flowers.

I still think he'll get it together at another spot on the O-line but the fit at LT is clearly waning. And mentioned before, its not like it should take much to win jobs across our O-Line.

He is not worthless, just likely a complacent situation for a guy that is really young...
What kind of question is this?  
arcarsenal : 1/29/2017 10:36 am : link
There's not even a 1% chance Flowers won't be on the roster next season.
RE: if big mac really wanted to make a splash  
aquidneck : 1/29/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:
Quote:
he would've demoted him to send a message.

the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?


Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?

The Flowers  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/29/2017 10:50 am : link
thing has snowballed out of control around here.

He had a bad year.

He is very young.

He has all the physical tools.

He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.
RE: RE: if big mac really wanted to make a splash  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/29/2017 10:52 am : link
In comment 13343147 aquidneck said:
Quote:
In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:


Quote:


he would've demoted him to send a message.

the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?



Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?


I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.

It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.

The grass is always greener isn't it?

You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.
RE: The Flowers  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13343150 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
thing has snowballed out of control around here.

He had a bad year.

He is very young.

He has all the physical tools.

He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.


This
RE: RE: RE: if big mac really wanted to make a splash  
aquidneck : 1/29/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13343151 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13343147 aquidneck said:


Quote:


In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:


Quote:


he would've demoted him to send a message.

the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?



Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?




I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.

It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.

The grass is always greener isn't it?

You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.


Thanks, but try not to paint with such a broad brush. "You guys" that do that tend to expose the fact that you "can't smell your own shit" either.

Always a Beatty fan here. That's a fact.
RE: RE: I have been very critical of Flowers  
mrvax : 1/29/2017 11:17 am : link
In comment 13343123 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Same here. I absolutely want him to succeed, but there really needs to be a big commitment on Flowers part to improve on his flaws. Scary to say, but the difference in his game from say Game 8 of his rookie year to that Green Bay playoff game several weeks ago is basically minimal.

Always have said most player development is typically not linear, but it also can't look like an X-Axis...


Bingo!
Yes. He is a going to be a great LT.  
GeorgeFox : 1/29/2017 11:18 am : link
.
100% he'll be here.  
CT Charlie : 1/29/2017 11:22 am : link
But is he mobile enough to be a pulling guard? I thought that that was important in a West Coast offense.
Flowers  
stretch234 : 1/29/2017 11:31 am : link
Do people watch other teams play. What quality LT play is Chi, TB, Det, Sea, Min, Car, LA receiving.

He has struggled, but no more than Robinson, Fisher, Mathews, Joeckel etc had in similar game time
RE: RE: RE: if big mac really wanted to make a splash  
drkenneth : 1/29/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13343151 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 13343147 aquidneck said:


Quote:


In comment 13343103 mattlawson said:


Quote:


he would've demoted him to send a message.

the problem with that is - who else do we have to play the position?



Wish he would have picked a game this year and made it happen. Sent the message. Why have LT Beatty on the roster if not for this reason?




I'd say it's a fair bet that Beatty never got the nod for a damn good reason.

It's hilarious how you guys were so eager to send Beatty in, yet when Beatty was our starting LT he got nothing but shit on around here.

The grass is always greener isn't it?

You guys are completely unable to smell your own shit.


This +1000%. BBI in a nutshell..whichever way the wind is blowing.

Beatty was not popular around here.
If, as many have said, he's got all the tools to be a good to very  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2017 11:34 am : link
good OLT and all (a big ALL) he needs to do is work hard to improve/hone his techniques, then a second year with Solari could (should?) very well see him take a leap..Small or big depends on how fast he gets it..

I prefer to be positive here, especially given his age..
What's that Smell?  
GeorgeAdams33 : 1/29/2017 11:38 am : link
I have always like Beatty too. Never bought that he is too soft or disinterested. etc.. He broke his leg doing what he typically does on running plays; he blocked his man and then got down field and was hauling ass to help push the pile... Yes, he got bull rushed and Jared Allen made him look foolish. I am hoping that that Mac & Solari felt Beatty was not an option at RT with Newhouse & Hart having a decent competition there. They didn't want to move Flowers when we had the opportunities to add a veteran LT last year. During the season they wouldn't even bench him no matter how loud we were all screaming for it.

I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.

This offseason we need to bring in talent on the offensive line, but we can only hope there are upgrades available to us. We might have to make a trade or two to either acquire a guy like Joe Thomas or move up if necessary for a starting LT in the draft IF one is even there in this draft. RG should be acquired as well as another good option at Center should Richburg fail to up his game. We must build this line to protect Eli and run the ball with some authority. We must be able to put Eli under center and run play action again.
RE: I would assume the #1 conversation  
Beer Man : 1/29/2017 11:41 am : link
In comment 13343134 area junc said:
Quote:
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.

Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.

It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.

There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.

Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?

I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!
I think the team has decided that Justin Pugh is their LG now and into the future and did not slide him over so that he could settle in at LG. As for Will B., I believe that Mac didn't want him and was only going to play him if he absolutely had to.
RE: RE: The Flowers  
AcidTest : 1/29/2017 11:44 am : link
In comment 13343152 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13343150 LakeGeorgeGiant said:


Quote:


thing has snowballed out of control around here.

He had a bad year.

He is very young.

He has all the physical tools.

He will be a Giant at least through his rookie contract. Cutting him would be foolish beyond belief.



This


+2.
At this point  
GeorgeAdams33 : 1/29/2017 11:56 am : link
Flowers still remains the most physically gifted athlete on this offensive line. If any of our current crop are going to become a pro bowl lineman it's probably still him with the best chance by a wide margin. He can turn it around if he really puts his mind to it.
Flowers should still develop  
k-five : 1/29/2017 12:55 pm : link
He just completed his second full season as a starter at the young age of 22. I REPEAT THE YOUNG AGE OF 22. There are OTs in this year's draft that are older than Flowers. The play calling didn't do him any favors either, as the coach rarely sent help to his side with a chip block from the running back or TE. On the flip side, he actually started the year of well with no hits or sacks allowed with only five pressures in the first three games before the wheels fell off.
Absolutely  
TMS : 1/29/2017 1:53 pm : link
This "consensus" incompetent front office, who picks our players, will never provide MORE evidence of thier incompetence by giving up on the 9th pick they made in the draft. IMO
RE: Absolutely  
drkenneth : 1/29/2017 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13343251 TMS said:
Quote:
This "consensus" incompetent front office, who picks our players, will never provide MORE evidence of thier incompetence by giving up on the 9th pick they made in the draft. IMO


Somehow they won 11 games.
There should be some type of IQ test  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/29/2017 2:04 pm : link
Required before starting threads
He makes the roster  
SomeFan : 1/29/2017 2:14 pm : link
but he seems like a very bad first round pick. I don't see him as the LT that is for sure. No doubt, Reese is disillusioned with his absolutely shitty play so who knows what the plans are for him.
With that 2017 schedule we have  
old man : 1/29/2017 2:57 pm : link
We might have a hard time smelling 8-9 wins with the current OL, especially with a LT that probably isn't one, and a C that is now an X factor after last year, and a right side, uh,yeah.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.
RE: With that 2017 schedule we have  
RetroJint : 1/29/2017 4:45 pm : link
In comment 13343296 old man said:
Quote:
We might have a hard time smelling 8-9 wins with the current OL, especially with a LT that probably isn't one, and a C that is now an X factor after last year, and a right side, uh,yeah.
I'm in the minority but I like EF and think he is an NFLer, just not at LT at the moment.
Jernigan, Moss, and several others have played out thru their first contracts; the only move with EF will be to a other position.


The point about 17 schedule is valid. Status quo will result in 2 or 3 losses.
They are reaching a decision point with Flowers . It is nowhere near the time when they will be forced to burn the village in order to save it. I'm not convinced his physical attributes are as evident as is usually mentioned. But he is protected by what Young used to call Big Person Theory. They've invested in him .

My guess is he will end up having a Gordon King-type career. A guy who starts for a number of years after being a #1, without ever attaining the level of play initially expected from him. The one thing about a 2-year playing sample is that there is not along list of corrective or remedial actions that they can use. Look, it's not that complicated. They have thrown everything they have at him,
It's easy to think he can plug in at RG. That he is like William Roberts. Big Billy had much sweeter feet. My guess ROT; I don't think he's a guard .
RE: I have been very critical of Flowers  
nyynyg : 1/29/2017 4:57 pm : link
In comment 13343115 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But this thread is just ridiculous.


The only thing that got me to the bottom of this thread was the ease of scrolling down of the 'Back to the Corner' button and sheer laziness to move my mouse up to the back button.
Bring back  
XBRONX : 1/29/2017 5:18 pm : link
Beatty? Thanks for the laughs
RE: There should be some type of IQ test  
Jimmy Googs : 1/29/2017 5:23 pm : link
In comment 13343260 Ron Johnson 30 said:
Quote:
Required before starting threads


then we wouldn't really have a website...
RE: Yes.  
giantgiantfan : 1/29/2017 5:29 pm : link
In comment 13343096 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
/thread



there was really no need for further responses after this
Why would anyone..  
Giant John : 1/29/2017 5:45 pm : link
Even ask this question?
RE: Why would anyone..  
SomeFan : 1/29/2017 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13343397 Giant John said:
Quote:
Even ask this question?


Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.
RE: RE: Why would anyone..  
UConn4523 : 1/29/2017 6:15 pm : link
In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 13343397 Giant John said:


Quote:


Even ask this question?



Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.


So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?

Which of the above is a logical next step?
RE: RE: RE: Why would anyone..  
SomeFan : 1/29/2017 6:23 pm : link
In comment 13343423 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:


Quote:


In comment 13343397 Giant John said:


Quote:


Even ask this question?



Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.



So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?

Which of the above is a logical next step?


They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would anyone..  
Diver_Down : 1/29/2017 6:26 pm : link
In comment 13343432 SomeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 13343423 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:


Quote:


In comment 13343397 Giant John said:


Quote:


Even ask this question?



Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.



So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?

Which of the above is a logical next step?



They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.


Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would anyone..  
SomeFan : 1/29/2017 7:00 pm : link
In comment 13343439 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13343432 SomeFan said:


Quote:


In comment 13343423 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343419 SomeFan said:


Quote:


In comment 13343397 Giant John said:


Quote:


Even ask this question?



Because Flowers was abysmal last year, has not shown any improvement in two seasons, and would not have started but for the investment the team made in him, which investment appears to be too high.



So you cut a 22 year old after 2 years in the NFL? Or do you see what you can do in the offseason, possibly move his position and allow him to grow?

Which of the above is a logical next step?



They won't cut him and I would not as I said above in my first post. There is too much invested in him to cut him. However, his play does not signal quality NFL LT with another year of experience. If he doesn't improve markedly next year, bet on him being cut.



Flowers won't ever be cut during his rookie contract. You can make an argument that his 5th year option won't be picked up next year. You can make an argument that he will not be resigned after his rookie contract expires. But to even suggest that he'll be cut during his rookie contract is foolish.


Yes, it is rare for it to happen. I guess it wouldn't make sense to cut him even after next year but without better play, I would lose hope in him ever turning the corner. It aeems clear to me that Reese is frustrated with him.
Wasn't Damontre Moore cut  
Bill in TN : 1/29/2017 7:39 pm : link
during his rookie contract? Don't make it seem like this will never happen.
RE: Wasn't Damontre Moore cut  
Diver_Down : 1/29/2017 8:10 pm : link
In comment 13343506 Bill in TN said:
Quote:
during his rookie contract? Don't make it seem like this will never happen.


You are absolutely correct. I was talking about Ereck Flowers. If you are trying to compare a Top 10 pick and a player that was picked in the 3rd round as being held to the same standard, it's not how the world works. I suppose Ereck could be videotaped kicking dogs and beating women while driving drunk but in the context that the poster that I was replying to was insinuating that he would be cut based on lack of improvement in his play, I will stand by my definitive statement.

So to eliminate any future confusion and hypotheticals, Ereck Flowers will never be cut during his rookie contract based on his performance.
I hope the more apt comparison to past players  
Sarcastic Sam : 1/29/2017 8:16 pm : link
is Corey Webster.

Looked lost the first two years.... figured it out somehow in the middle of his third season and helped mightily to an unexpected Superbowl win.
He is a LT until they find someone or some way to replace him.  
Ivan15 : 1/29/2017 8:23 pm : link
Unless they want to try Pugh or Newhouse (who played there before), there is no one on the roster until free agency or the draft. And if they don't sign one or draft one, guess who the LT will be?

If he is not coachable, he needs a wake up call. Just a question of how big a hammer will work.
RE: He costs  
FStubbs : 1/29/2017 8:32 pm : link
In comment 13343106 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
very little and is still very young. At worst he's a bad LT, at best he's a starter somewhere else with the possibility of being a good player.


He would have to improve significantly to make it to the level of bad.
Flowers is more of a lock to be the Giants starting LT  
AnnapolisMike : 1/29/2017 8:56 pm : link
Than anything else. He will be 23 in April. If he didn't have the physical tools I could understand this thread. This is not a 28 year old guy with no potential upside.
Nat in jersey  
Nat in jersey : 1/29/2017 9:43 pm : link
Years ago, we drafted William Roberts as a tackle

It didn't work out so we moved him to guard and won a championship.

Can we repeat this move with Flowers?
My question is  
Marty866b : 1/29/2017 11:14 pm : link
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
Flowers is a lock to make the roster  
Torrag : 1/29/2017 11:20 pm : link
The Giants should be looking to upgrade at LT while they work with Flowers at another position. He simply hasn't been good enough to put next season at risk. The obvious player to sign is Andrew Whitworth.
RE: My question is  
djstat : 1/30/2017 12:12 am : link
In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?
When he was drafted he was drafted on potential. Despite the OP, he has shown improvement. HE is a LOCK to make the team
I think Flowers is a problem, but:  
81_Great_Dane : 1/30/2017 3:13 am : link
He wasn't "abysmal." There are shades of gray between terrible and what we hope he'll be.

As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.

But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.



RE: I think Flowers is a problem, but:  
SomeFan : 1/30/2017 7:57 am : link
In comment 13343669 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
He wasn't "abysmal." There are shades of gray between terrible and what we hope he'll be.

As for the front office, I've noted on this forum many times that while it's often accused of "neglecting" the offensive line, it hasn't done any such thing. It's been throwing resources at the O-line year after year. They haven't been neglectful, they've been ineffective. I'd argue ineffective is worse. They seem to have used two first-round picks on tackles, and ended up with guards, and that's the good news. The list of failed NYG O-line draft picks in recent years is long and painful: Brewer, Petrus, McCants, Herman, Mosley. And you have Geoff Schwartz and David Baas in free agency.

But even with all that, if Flowers turns out to be a bust, he won't be the first top-10 bust in the draft, he won't be the last. The bust rate is lower at the top of the first but it's not zero. Shit happens. The front office's job is to try not to let it happen to them, but shit happens anyway.




All good points but one thing is that LT is a position that you do not want too much inconsistency. An inconsistent LT can be a disaster. It is simikar to when people defenddd Dodge's inconsistency and claimed he just needed some tweaks. Inconsistent punters are not in the NFL regardless of leg strength. Inconsistent LTs wont last long. We can't live with gray at LT much longer.
RE: My question is  
jcn56 : 1/30/2017 8:06 am : link
In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?


In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.

What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.

Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.

I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.
Is this really a thread about Flowers  
Beezer : 1/30/2017 8:14 am : link
making the roster next year?

Incredible.
RE: RE: My question is  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2017 8:17 am : link
In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:


Quote:


Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?



In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.

What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.

Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.

I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.


Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent
RE: What's that Smell?  
Giants2012 : 1/30/2017 8:22 am : link
In comment 13343178 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I

I would sign Beatty back again for the vet minimum and he at least might give us an insurance policy for this year at LT. I don't believe that him not starting a game last year was all necessarily due to him. Circumstances were not right for him to get out there after missing all of camp and not really getting to know Solari.

.


Maybe it's the smell of bringing back a 32 yr old lineman who hasn't played since 2014?

RE: Is this really a thread about Flowers  
Ron Johnson 30 : 1/30/2017 8:26 am : link
In comment 13343699 Beezer said:
Quote:
making the roster next year?

Incredible.


Mind boggling, isn't it?
as big a lock as this to be voted "Dumbest OP of 2017 to Date."  
Victor in CT : 1/30/2017 8:42 am : link
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
RE: RE: RE: My question is  
Diver_Down : 1/30/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13343703 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:


Quote:


Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?



In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.

What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.

Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.

I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.



Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent


I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.

Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.
He'll make the roster but not at LT  
Heisenberg : 1/30/2017 8:52 am : link
.
BTW  
Rong5611 : 1/30/2017 8:55 am : link
I wasn't saying they should cut him. Just wondering what will happen with him. IMO, he should not play LT next season. Not sure where to put him.

Certainly not replacing Pugh at LG, so it would seem he would be headed for RG or RT. Floweres is not guaranteed to start at either spot.

He will likely be kept for depth at a minimum, hopefully he starts on the right side somewhere. We'll see.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My question is  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2017 8:56 am : link
In comment 13343718 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13343703 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:


Quote:


Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?



In the absence of a suitable alternative, sure.

What kept the Giants from abandoning the plan after year 1 was likely the belief that his youth and inexperience, combined with an injury, meant that he had upside in year 2. Unfortunately, he regressed.

Your question becomes more valid after this offseason; do the Giants go into camp again without a suitable alternative for Flowers? Not just a swing tackle who can play in a pinch, but someone to legitimately challenge for the starting spot.

I don't blame Reese or the rest of the staff for thinking Flowers had the potential to improve and play well following his rookie campaign. LT is a tough spot to start from day 1, and if he was banged up the season he turned in was promising. This year was a major disappointment for him. Now, you have to consider moving him to the right or inside, as well as bringing onboard a serious challenge to his starting status. Failure to do that would be a major mistake by Reese, IMO.



Or, we can see whether in year 2 of Solari he finally gets it; he finally masters the techniques he needs to in order to combine it with his physical talent



I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.

Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.


You could be right on Flowers. My dilemma as a fan is that he's still ridiculously young, has terrific physical ability by all accounts and just needs to master some technique. Perhaps it's easier said than done, but sometimes we might need to roll the dice. That said, what they do in FA and the draft MIGHT tell us what Solari (who is acknowledged as one of the best) thinks about Flowers and what he can or cannot do with him..Just my two cents
Yes he is a lock to be on the roster in 2017  
Rick in Dallas : 1/30/2017 9:25 am : link
The question should be at what position on the OL. I would prefer that Flowers be tried at RT or RG and that we sign Whitworth to a 2 year FA contract in March.
Not if he dies  
pjcas18 : 1/30/2017 9:28 am : link
then he's not a lock to be on the roster (though he'd still be on the salary cap). Or if he retires. otherwise yes, he's a lock.
RE: Not if he dies  
Giants2012 : 1/30/2017 9:32 am : link
In comment 13343737 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
then he's not a lock to be on the roster (though he'd still be on the salary cap). Or if he retires. otherwise yes, he's a lock.
j

at least death is now on the record.

99 percent  
Bramton1 : 1/30/2017 11:02 am : link
If he gets hit by a bus, he probably won't be brought back.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My question is  
jcn56 : 1/30/2017 11:25 am : link
In comment 13343718 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13343703 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343698 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13343625 Marty866b said:


Quote:


Would Flowers still be the starting left tackle if he wasn't drafted #9 in the first round?




I think that is a very risky gamble. If at the end of this year, he still hasn't shown being capable to handle the LT position then the Giants are left scrambling to find a LT and what to do with Flowers. Not knowing where he'll play will affect their decision to pick up his 5th year option which must be decided at the end of the 3rd contract year. Rolling the dice on Flowers might come up craps.

Here is another footnote that I read in DefenderDawg's artciles the other day. It was by Patricia Traina, but she wrote that Reese has never signed a 1st round pick that he drafted to a multi-year contract. The only 1st rounder that he has resigned was JPP to the 1 year prove it deal last year. Since 2007, for the past 10 years, he has not resigned any of his 1st round picks to a multi-year deal.


Two different issues, unrelated.

First - if after two years Flowers doesn't have the LT spot locked down, it's a disappointment. That doesn't mean you abandon it after year 1. If every player who played a down at LT was scrapped after not doing well his first year, the position wouldn't exist anymore. Plenty of these guys struggle for a few years until they get their bearings, regardless of draft position. Some never get it - hopefully we don't have that with Flowers.

As for Pat's observation - I hope it came with the caveat that several of those first rounders suffered career ending injuries, otherwise, it's not much of an observation. Unless the implication was that Kenny Phillips, David Wilson and Hakeem Nicks were all not worthy of first round selections. Two of those guys helped win a Super Bowl. And that bunch also includes JPP - is the implication that he wasn't worth re-signing?

Aaron Ross and Amukamara round out the guys who weren't resigned. Both were quality starters who helped win a Super Bowl.

The shots at Reese are so poor it's almost laughable. The guy has made misfires that are worthy of pointing out and criticizing, but blaming him for not giving up on a first year player by bringing in a replacement, or not re-signing guys who were too injured to keep playing.
.  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2017 11:38 am : link
Quote:


Aaron Ross and Amukamara round out the guys who weren't resigned. Both were quality starters who helped win a Super Bowl.



And they both had injury issues
RE: I would assume the #1 conversation  
OC2.0 : 1/30/2017 3:39 pm : link
In comment 13343134 area junc said:
Quote:
going on at Giants HQ is making sure Eli Manning does not take the kind of beating he's taken the last 5 years.

Let's face it - the OL has been deteriorating since 2012. That's a long time ago, half a decade for Eli's internal clock to go to hell.

It's not about keeping Flowers at LT anymore, it's about not letting a 36/37 year old pocket passer take a beating.

There's only 1 play here - move him inside to G, where his size and physicality could really help the interior run game, and give Eli a clean pocket. Anything short of that and you've really got to question why we're so slow to make adjustments.

Greg Robinson was moved to G almost immediately when he showed he couldn't handle T. Same with Brandon Scherff. Why are we so stubborn?

I have zero doubt - ZERO - that even Will Beatty would be a better pass blocker at whatever state he's currently in. Justin Pugh would be a FAR BETTER LT. It's time to stop f#cking around and saving face, not wanting to give Flowers tough news, etc. and do what's right for Eli and this football team!


Agree
He's a lock  
JonC : 1/30/2017 3:41 pm : link
and he's probably still the LT.
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