|
|
Quote: |
Although Whitworth just turned 35, he is still operating at an elite level at the left tackle position. With free agency looming, the New York Giants have emerged as a strong candidate to pry him away and in the process fill their greatest need. Whitworth appeared in his third Pro Bowl on Sunday night, and according to Giants Daily, he engaged in a lengthy conversation with Giants wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr. after the game. It's possible that the two players were discussing running back Jeremy Hill, as both players have a connection to the Bengals and former LSU running back, but that seems unlikely. It makes more sense to assume Beckham was attempting to sell Whitworth on the idea that he is the final piece for the Giants to make a Super Bowl run. In addition to his conversation with Beckham, the Cincy Jungle passed along a rumor last week that the Giants and Vikings are two teams who have emerged as potential suitors for Whitworth. |
Didn't recall that. Nice little tidbit
Klaatu : 7:56 am : link : reply
At first, I was opposed to the idea of signing Andrew Whitworth. He's 35, and I've always favored the "younger, faster" approach to free agency, an approach that the Giants used with great success last year when they rebuilt their abysmal 2015 defense.
However, if the Flowers-at-LT experiment is truly over, then the Giants must find a replacement for him, and the odds are that they won't find that replacement in this year's draft. They must find it in free agency, and Whitworth will be by far the best available UFA LT on the market. The Giants should do whatever it takes to bring Whitworth to New York.
I've been a big supporter of Flowers last year in the offseason
Diver_Down : 8:40 am : link : reply
giving him credit for playing through a high ankle sprain his rookie year. Looking for him to take the next step, he never did. Since November, when it was apparent that Flowers wasn't going to be our answer at LT, I've been a big proponent of signing Whitworth. So many on BBI claimed that he was going to fall off a cliff or he was closer to collecting social security and were quick to disregard his accomplishments. In the past, I've made a bold statement and I'll stick to it. If we sign Whitworth, he immediately becomes our best OL. That can be interpreted as a compliment to Whitworth's abilities or an indictment on the lack of development of our OL. The fact remains that the Giants last had a pro-bowl LT 20+ years ago in Jumbo.
Klaatu : 7:56 am : link : reply
At first, I was opposed to the idea of signing Andrew Whitworth. He's 35, and I've always favored the "younger, faster" approach to free agency, an approach that the Giants used with great success last year when they rebuilt their abysmal 2015 defense.
However, if the Flowers-at-LT experiment is truly over, then the Giants must find a replacement for him, and the odds are that they won't find that replacement in this year's draft. They must find it in free agency, and Whitworth will be by far the best available UFA LT on the market. The Giants should do whatever it takes to bring Whitworth to New York.
Whitworth could very well have told him that the next time they go boating he will be happy to chaperone..
In what way are those two guys comparable, aside from the fact that they're both offensive linemen?
It's not even close.
Back in November when I started to look for an answer at LT, I looked into injury history and performance trajectory. I'm a huge critic of Pugh who has been unable to play 16 games a season since his rookie year and his cap hit will be larger than what it would cost to sign a pro-bowl LT. With regards to Whitworth, is that he can be counted on (only missed 2 games early on in his career). In addition, his nomination to Pro-Bowls and listed as an All-Pro has been in his later years. It's not like he peaked early in his career and has steadily been declining. Rather the opposite, in that he started at guard and eventually locked down LT.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote:
.
My thoughts exactly.
Not sure if that's meant as a negative or positive. Guessing positive
Not understanding
Quote:
In comment 13344713 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.
My thoughts exactly.
Not sure if that's meant as a negative or positive. Guessing positive
Lomas Brown was definitely a positive.
Who's cap hit?
then the Giants are willing to believe EF might not be the LOT in 2017 and that's a huge attitude adjustment and the real start to improving this Oline.
Wow! $9M for a guard who is not even an All-Pro? Extend Pugh quickly...
Quote:
But this isn't going to be a similar situation to when we signed Geoff Schwartz, is it?
In what way are those two guys comparable, aside from the fact that they're both offensive linemen?
Guy performing at a high level for multiple years that is relatively healthy (was the case for Schwartz - same for Whitworth, right?)
That being said at 35 a long term deal is out so you deal with the reality of the cap now and I'm not so sure this is going to be another overly aggressive year of spending as it is - aside from JPP and Hankins you've got K Robinson and Casillas to address and OBJ, Pugh, Richburg and Collins in the very near term. I'd also be curious about his decision to reup with Cinci on a short term deal last time instead of getting to the market. That may be an indication he wants to retire there and not disrupt family for a 1-2 year fling. Not to mention neither guy they drafted appear to be a threat to replace him.
Whitworth has been one of the best OTs in the NFL for like 10 years now. Not a similar situation at all.
What doesn't ring true. Pugh 5th year option is 8+ million for a single year. If we are able to sign AW for 7.5 - 8 million/year, that is less than Pugh will make this year.
Yeah, this is just short of being the 8th story on TMZ tonight...
Quote:
That doesn't ring true.
What doesn't ring true. Pugh 5th year option is 8+ million for a single year. If we are able to sign AW for 7.5 - 8 million/year, that is less than Pugh will make this year.
Pugh's a younger player with upside if he can stay healthy. If you were signing a Pro-Bowl guard or tackle who wasn't in his mid 30's, you'd be paying more than $8M/yr.
Granted, that's a big *if*. The only way they go with the option year is if they can't find a way to extend him within reason, though.
Quote:
In comment 13344701 tbonfig said:
Quote:
But this isn't going to be a similar situation to when we signed Geoff Schwartz, is it?
In what way are those two guys comparable, aside from the fact that they're both offensive linemen?
Guy performing at a high level for multiple years that is relatively healthy (was the case for Schwartz - same for Whitworth, right?)
Schwartz appeared in 74 of a possible 96 games with 39 starts. He never performed at a "high level," although he had a good 2013 campaign, when he made seven starts.
Whitworth appeared in 168 of a possible 176 games with 164 starts. He's a 3x Pro Bowler and 2x All-Pro.
There's no comparison between the two.
More importantly, Eli is 36. We don't have time to second guess these things or wait for someone to develop. We were in a win now mode on defense last year. It's time to do the same on offense but it starts with the line.
Give Whitworth a 2 year deal. We have the cap space. Then sign another vet whether at RT or RG depending on where we put Flowers to another short term deal. Just like that our biggest weakness is dealt with. Then draft another OT in the mid rounds (i still like Bucknell's Julie'n Davenport) to develop.
Quote:
In comment 13344721 JonC said:
Quote:
That doesn't ring true.
What doesn't ring true. Pugh 5th year option is 8+ million for a single year. If we are able to sign AW for 7.5 - 8 million/year, that is less than Pugh will make this year.
Pugh's a younger player with upside if he can stay healthy. If you were signing a Pro-Bowl guard or tackle who wasn't in his mid 30's, you'd be paying more than $8M/yr.
Granted, that's a big *if*. The only way they go with the option year is if they can't find a way to extend him within reason, though.
I'm not a fan of Pugh. His track record speaks for itself. The guy can't be counted on to play 16 games a season. When he is in the lineup, he is our best OL. When the bar is set so low, it doesn't take a Herculean effort to surpass the bar. For the value of contract that Pugh will want, I would shop in FA and sign a player to replace him at a similar cost. Once his replacement is signed, cut Pugh and don't let him in the facility where he can stub his toe. The 5th year option is guaranteed for injury only. Cutting him and he won't see a dime with zero cap hit.
Agree. Those who pointed out the Lomas Brown similarity are spot on. He wold be stop gap, bridge the gap for Flowers to learn proper LT technique or a new position, and draft a long term solution.
Quote:
would be excellent on a 2 year deal. What happens afterword is another story but, we need to maximize these next 2 seasons. He'd be the best option at LT for those 2 years no question.
Agree. Those who pointed out the Lomas Brown similarity are spot on. He wold be stop gap, bridge the gap for Flowers to learn proper LT technique or a new position, and draft a long term solution.
Yup. Let's say we get Whitworth for 2. I think the draft then shifts to playmaker on offense in round 1. Then focus on OL again in the mid rounds, see if we can find guard in rounds 3 or 4 with great upside/starting caliber for rookie season.
LG - Flowers
OC - Richburg
RG - Taylor Moten (2nd Round draft pick)
RT - Pugh
Backups - Hart, Jones, Newhouse
LG - Flowers
OC - Richburg
RG - Taylor Moten (2nd Round draft pick)
RT - Pugh
Backups - Hart, Jones, Newhouse
Moton looks like a beast, and a guy that could play multiple positions on the line. Would love to get him in the mid rounds. He could start at RG day 1.
I agree except swapping Whitworth for EF wouldn't hurt the left side, IMO. Where to put Flowers is a huge question. Has he ever played guard or RT?
Flowers has struggled on the outside. Lets try him in betweeen Whitworth and Richburg, who is another player at his natural position.
Taylor Moten would be an upgrade over John Jerry, and he'd be slotted in between Richburg and Pugh, who has experience at RT.
It's worth a try.
Quote:
It's going to be a unique circumstance for them to change the EF/Pugh/Richburg trio, imv.
I agree except swapping Whitworth for EF wouldn't hurt the left side, IMO. Where to put Flowers is a huge question. Has he ever played guard or RT?
Not that I'm aware of, but I'd expect him to try RT if a move is made.
That's the #1 issue of everyone who would be against this rumored NYG interest.
Sign him.
I don't think it's that as much as the Bengals would likely match what the market would be willing to pay, and he'd stay where he is for continuity.
Quote:
interested, but I think he's going to command a lot more than what the Giants will pay for a 35 year old tackle.
I don't think it's that as much as the Bengals would likely match what the market would be willing to pay, and he'd stay where he is for continuity.
That too, but the "market" to me includes his own team. I can see though why it wouldn't.
No one knows what EF can play well at the NFL level.
I am not a huge Pugh fan either. I like him even less than Richburg. I don't like Pughney lineman. (Pugh's nick name at Syracuse) These guys are good leaders, I guess, and good "technicians",they pull well, but they get zero push and they can't hold their ground. You just can't have that. Too much pressure coming from these guys getting pushed backwards.
I am thoroughly convinced that Flowers needs to change his attitude and improve his technique. If he does that there will always be a use for a guy that talented. If you count Beatty, Reese is 0 for 4 on high round draft choices for the O-line. McAdoo & Solari need to be consulted when it comes to any future O-line picks.
We need real veteran leadership on the line. When Flowers thinks he can pull a team pep talk on the sidelines in Philly his rookie year and now friggin Bobby Hart thinks he's some kind of vocal leader we definitely need some established vets. Problem with us is Jerry, Beatty, and Newhouse are all passive in their play and in there attitudes.
I would like to trade for Joe Thomas AND sign Whitworth, whom I do believe could play RT for us. Sign one vet RG and et our own FAs walk this year. Draft the best O-lineman you can at every spot if you can; Trade up for the best LT available because that will be about the only one worth a damn. If we traded up into the mid to late teens for Ramcyzk or Robinson I would be happy to draft our TE in round 2 or 3 depending which one we have left.
Even if we draft a TE or two, and even if one is a receiver first kind of guy, We must commit to improving the perimeter blocking. The FB and TE positions need to be re-established on this team.
If our line was : Thomas-Pugh-Richburg-Zeitler-Whitworth I would be doing flips off the high dive. That would be awesome. Let the young guys prove their value and make EF sit until he someone retires in a year or two. Make him earn it. Make a commitment to continually upgrading the offensive line and we won't keep getting caught with our pants down. Reminds me of 2003. Not nearly as bad, but we don't want it any worse.
Is it possible?
I'd just barely take Whitworth at Hankins expense but not JPP's.
LG - Flowers
OC - Richburg
RG - Taylor Moten (2nd Round draft pick)
RT - Pugh
Backups - Hart, Jones, Newhouse
Nah. I said that and got excoriated here. That actually makes too much sense.
Quote:
LT - Whitworth
LG - Flowers
OC - Richburg
RG - Taylor Moten (2nd Round draft pick)
RT - Pugh
Backups - Hart, Jones, Newhouse
Moton looks like a beast, and a guy that could play multiple positions on the line. Would love to get him in the mid rounds. He could start at RG day 1.
Moton goes in the second. Book it.
What would be maddening is if we again stuck with the worst pass blocking LT in football - letting Eli take a beating in the process - while we chose not to sign Russell Okung, or Whitworth this year.
Sign Whitworth, move Flowers to RG because he hasn't earned the right to stay at T and worst case scenario you've got a 3rd year Bobby Hart at RT who sounds like a hard working player. Best case, you get a stud RT in the draft to complete the line.
Flowers would be a monster at G. If there's no danger of running around him, you aren't running through him. i think he'd really like it if/when he accepted the move.
Whitworth - Pugh - Richburg - Flowers - Hart/????
Gives you a chance to run the ball up the middle (something we do almost exclusively) and give Eli time. Let Flowers push people around and open holes inside instead of worrying about blocking RDE's in space.
Wow! $9M for a guard who is not even an All-Pro? Extend Pugh quickly...
Actually Pugh was playing at All-Pro caliber before getting hurt. I heard/read numerous talking heads saying it.
Whitworth went to LSU himself. The Jeremy Hill connection is an unnecessary reach. There's a good chance that Whitworth and Beckham know each other due to their own LSU connections. I think that's far more likely than a conversation about Jeremy Hill or Beckham selling Whitworth on the Giants. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's a HUGE leap of speculation when it's possible that two guys who went to the same college just might have been having a friendly conversation.
Quote:
if not extended with a new deal, Pugh is due $8,821,000!
Wow! $9M for a guard who is not even an All-Pro? Extend Pugh quickly...
Actually Pugh was playing at All-Pro caliber before getting hurt. I heard/read numerous talking heads saying it.
True, but he's hurt every year.
Sign him to a two year deal.
It would give them time to work with and develop Flowers, a player they clearly aren't going to give up on, but who has more flaws to his game than they were probably hoping or expecting to find.
How do you go from sycophantic leader defender to throw the bum out over the same player?
It is insane.
That said, Flowers, based on draft position ought to have some one on one per his balance and technique to improve him as a player, schemeatics could be made more tackle friendly and all that, protect your investment(s).
I still think he can be made into a good ORT and its worth the investment.
Please back this opinion stated as fact up with proof.
The problem is going to be getting him to leave Cincy. Unless they decide to lowball him or not pursue him at all, you'd have to sweeten the pot a bit.
just sayin'...
2014: 0 sacks, 1 hit, 9 hurries on 615 pass blocking snaps
2015: 5 sacks, 1 hit, 17 hurries on 652 pass blocking snaps
2016: 4 sacks, 0 hits, 11 hurries on 637 pass blocking snaps
Didn't think he played all the well although Vernon seemed to mostly abuse the Left Guard versus Whitworth on his pass rush. Odi was often put in to play on outside and even he had a few pressures on Whitworth. The Giant pass rush on that side did an overall good job that game.
Vernon did handle Whitworth pretty well in the run game, sometimes even pushing him to ground. Finished with like 10 tackles or something like that.