With the stench of a historically bad defense in 2015 still fresh in his nostrils, Jerry Reese went on a spending spree in 2016, defying conventional wisdom that argued against investing massive amounts of free agent money to solve your personnel problems. While many pundits scoffed at his approach, using the "200 million dollar" figure to repeatedly hammer the Giants GM, others pointed out that Reese, rather than spending money like the proverbial drunken sailor on aging, oft-injured veterans, was instead investing his team's money wisely in young, motivated, highly productive players, and with contracts that, while pricey, were ultimately cap-friendly. In retrospect, there's no doubt that these investments paid off handsomely. An abysmal Giants defense became the team's strength, due in large part to the contributions of their 2016 free agent acquisitions.
As the 2017 season approaches, with the stench of an underachieving offense wafting through the air in East Rutherford, it would be easy to declare that Reese should employ the same strategy to improve the offense that he used to improve the defense, however there are some notable differences between this year's offseason and last year's.
For one, the Giants have some major decisions to make regarding re-signing or extending some of their key players. For another, while they will still have money to spend in free agency (regardless of who they re-sign), it won't be close to the amount that they had last year, and the competition to sign some of the top-tier free agents will be much stiffer. Also, last year's free agent market lined up rather nicely with the Giants' needs. This year, not so much, which is unfortunate. Still, there are several moves that the Giants could make prior to the draft that could upgrade their offense.
First and foremost, they have to address the dreadful performance of their offensive line, in general, and their Left Tackle, in particular. It would be a huge gamble on Reese's part if he decides to stick with Ereck Flowers at the position. Huge. I was a big fan of the pick when it was made, but I'm prepared to admit that the kid could be more like D.J. Fluker than Orlando Pace. I don't know if Reese feels that way, but if he does, then the obvious move would be to do whatever it takes to sign Andrew Whitworth.
Sure, Whitworth is 35, and doesn't fit the "younger, faster" profile, but he has been a model of durability and is still playing at a very high level. There's no reason to think that he won't continue to play at that level for another two years, at least, and give Eli Manning the blind-side protection he's been lacking for the past couple of years. There are no other free agent OTs on the market that I'd like to see the Giants sign, and just as they went all-in on Olivier Vernon last year, I'd like to see them go all-in on Whitworth this year.
As for the right side of the O-Line, and the interior, another decision would have to be made regarding Flowers. Can he successfully transition to Right Tackle? Would he be better off at one of the Guard spots? Honestly, I don't know, and while it would be easy to suggest that the Giants sign a top-tier free agent OG in addition to signing Whitworth, I don't know if the Giants will have the resources to do both. If that's the case, then you go with Whitworth, and devil take Mackworth castle. OG would then become a priority in the draft.
As far as skill players go, while the draft should offer the Giants the chance to draft a WR that would compliment OBJ and Shepard very well, as well as a dynamic TE to work the seam and become Eli's new best friend, along with a bruising RB to compliment Paul Perkins, there are UFAs who will be available for the Giants to sign prior to the draft who would offer immediate, veteran help, just in case the draft doesn't shake out in the Giants favor.
At TE, I would make an offer to Miami's Dion Sims. As I've said before, I've had it with the Donnells and Tyes of the world, and I'm certainly not counting on Matt LaCosse (although I do like the kid). Only 25, 6-4, 270, Sims has proven himself to be a capable receiver and more-than-capable blocker. He'd look good in Blue and it wouldn't break the bank to get him here.
At WR, I'd make an offer to Baltimore's Kamar Aiken. I don't know why he fell out of favor in Baltimore last year after a very productive 2015 season, but if there are no skeletons in his closet then the Giants could certainly make use of a 27 year-old WR who's 6-2, 215, with excellent speed.
At RB, I like another kid who seemed to fall out of favor with his team - New England's Brandon Bolden. Still only 27, at 5-11, 220, I believe he'd be a better compliment to Paul Perkins than the 31 year-old Rashad Jennings.
Whew. Maybe I should switch to decaf.
Would he be too expensive or not enough of an upgrade ?
Would he be too expensive or not enough of an upgrade ?
My thoughts exactly. Could we afford both Whitworth and Leary?
cost is market over his useful life, go for it.
Reese has a good record w WRs in the draft. I'd rather Reese take a guy in the 3rd than overpay in FA.
Would he be too expensive or not enough of an upgrade ?
Leary will want a long term deal and will cost a lot. If the Giants sign him and it turns into another David Baas situation, it will really hurt the team.
If you sign Whitworth, the OL is set outside of RG. I'd rather draft a RT/RG type in the mid to late rounds, re-sign Jerry or Newhouse on the cheap, and let them battle it out in camp.
We all loved Dan Campbell.
I would go hard after this guy. Both figuratively and financially.
Flowers gets another chance, in training camp and preseason, and they'll have a contingency plan if he can't cut it, most likely trying him at right tackle. Jerry has already said that he's open to moving him there.
If we get Whitworth, Jerry and Newhouse finally become quality depth.
Reese has a good record w WRs in the draft. I'd rather Reese take a guy in the 3rd than overpay in FA.
I guess I didn't read every comment before posting. I agree 100%.
I agree with signing a FA LT whomever fits the cap space and has the proven talent to protect.
My concerns are that we are assuming that Flowers can fit into a RT/RG role which I am not sure is possible. My gut tells me this dog don't hunt period. I hope I'm wrong. With that said you now have Jerry, Newhouse & Hart---not a great track record there. Add to it that Richburg is a crap shoot too. WTF did Reese do to this offense over the past 4 years. Pugh is serviceable and a starter...not an all pro but a starter. There is a lot of work to do with this offense and you can add all the talent you want at WR, TE and running back, it will help but to be a force in this division we have to overhaul this O line. We're counting on too many assumptions going into 2017
Flowers gets another chance, in training camp and preseason, and they'll have a contingency plan if he can't cut it, most likely trying him at right tackle. Jerry has already said that he's open to moving him there.
What contingency plan? If Flowers can't cut it at LT, do they even have a Plan B? Are they counting on a draftee to take his spot? As I said, leaving him at LT would be a huge gamble on Reese's part.
Thanks for the work, Klaatu!
Reese has a good record w WRs in the draft. I'd rather Reese take a guy in the 3rd than overpay in FA.
I don't think you'd have to overpay, per se, for Aiken, who essentially had one good year (and bounced around the league for a couple of years before latching on with Baltimore). Sanu and Jones had been highly productive mainstays for a number of years for their teams before hitting the open market.
I'm in on Whitworth thanks in large part to Diver_Down's repeatedly cogent posts on the positives of doing so..
Still would LOVE to get Zeitler for OG as he's one of, if not the best and has lived up to his best in the draft billing at his position..He's young and should be here for a long time..
I'm in on Whitworth thanks in large part to Diver_Down's repeatedly cogent posts on the positives of doing so..
Still would LOVE to get Zeitler for OG as he's one of, if not the best and has lived up to his best in the draft billing at his position..He's young and should be here for a long time..
I don't want to persuade another, but rather put the situation in focus and allow that person to make up their own mind. I was a lone wolf back in November and was labeled silly, idiot, whatever. I'm a big guy and can take the labels. It is interesting to note that in the span of 2 months, there seems to be a growing majority that have come around to AW.
Now, my efforts on Pugh need a lot of work. I was labeled as silly, idiot, not living in reality just yesterday. I just need to bring a brighter focus to the situation and perhaps others will be willing to see the light.
I want a top TE and RB in the Draft I love Foreman to go
along with Perkins and Lets Get a Legitimate Threat at TE
Early to go along with Sims and Adams .
The Rest of the Draft find some depth at any position .
I'd offer Houston a 6th rd pick for Jaelen Strong. They are flush at WR with Hopkins, Fuller and Miller. Strong can't crack the lineup but has the tools to be a Y WR across from Odell.
I'd also offer Minnesota a 7th rounder for Charles Johnson. Johnson is a tall speedster that fell out of favor. He's been nicked up as well. He's got some upside though, he's 6'2" with really good speed (4.39 40). With Treadwell and Diggs there, they might be inclined to get something for him.
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This fan gives Flowers another year before thinking of writing him off. It doesn't need to be OLT, but I have confidence (not strong) that in year 2 of Solari (still considered one of the best) he might finally get the techniques down, as he as every other talent attribute you'd want according to the respected scouts out there..Big year for him in evaluations
I'm in on Whitworth thanks in large part to Diver_Down's repeatedly cogent posts on the positives of doing so..
Still would LOVE to get Zeitler for OG as he's one of, if not the best and has lived up to his best in the draft billing at his position..He's young and should be here for a long time..
I don't want to persuade another, but rather put the situation in focus and allow that person to make up their own mind. I was a lone wolf back in November and was labeled silly, idiot, whatever. I'm a big guy and can take the labels. It is interesting to note that in the span of 2 months, there seems to be a growing majority that have come around to AW.
Now, my efforts on Pugh need a lot of work. I was labeled as silly, idiot, not living in reality just yesterday. I just need to bring a brighter focus to the situation and perhaps others will be willing to see the light.
It wasn't about persuasion per se, rather a laying out of salient reasons why it would be a good idea for a few years..I delved more into his history (injury situations, production, etc.) and came away thinking, why the hell not?
Except for most starting QBs who are effective, many players are gone after 4-5 years anyway, so why not a high level performer for perhaps 3 years? Yes, at his playing age he could fall off a cliff at any time, but the positives seem to outweigh the negatives as Eli begins to wind down to (hopefully) the last 5 years or so of his career..
a) determine a price for our free agents and let the market dictate what happens next and:
b) make moves to shore up positions of need so that he is free to be as flexible as possible when the draft occurs.
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Whitworth makes sense as a stop gap despite his age. Sims wouldn't be a bad pickup if the price is right. Aiken would be a nice get, but I think he'll be too expensive and he doesn't have a ton of upside. Look at what guys like Sanu and Marvin Jones got last year.
Reese has a good record w WRs in the draft. I'd rather Reese take a guy in the 3rd than overpay in FA.
I don't think you'd have to overpay, per se, for Aiken, who essentially had one good year (and bounced around the league for a couple of years before latching on with Baltimore). Sanu and Jones had been highly productive mainstays for a number of years for their teams before hitting the open market.
Sanu's best year was 56 790 and 5. Aiken had 930 and 5 in '15. He can make a strong case for Sanu money, and someone will probably give it to him.
2. Aiken didn't exactly light things up last year. I think he'll be looking at a deal closer to Rishard Matthews (3 yrs/$15M) than Sanu's.
2. Aiken didn't exactly light things up last year. I think he'll be looking at a deal closer to Rishard Matthews (3 yrs/$15M) than Sanu's.
5 million for a WR would be the highest salary we have at the position. It's not a whimsical decision to throw 6.5 at a JAG X WR. E.g., we could use that money for a large portion of a Hankins deal.
2. Aiken didn't exactly light things up last year. I think he'll be looking at a deal closer to Rishard Matthews (3 yrs/$15M) than Sanu's.
You may be right, but I'm just not very comfortable with giving Aiken 5-6.5 mil per year. I just don't know how he'd perform in our offense. If he doesn't produce, we're essentially trading Cruz and his cap number for Aiken and his.
I'm just not sure what his upside is. He played with some decent complimentary pieces in Baltimore this year and didn't produce.
I feel we may be better off rolling the dice on a cost controlled mid round pick vs signing Aiken.
Klaatu has brought up some obvious points.....
We don't have the money to sign FA's like last year.....we have some of our own to resign, as mentioned, like Pugh, Hankins, JPP, Robinson, etc. Naturally, we can't resign them all and have much left over to spend in FAcy on the offense.....the draft is not going to produce more than one quality starter, if past history is maintained...
There is no doubt, that we need a LT......there is no guarantee that Flowers can play LT any better than RT.....putting him at guard, takes away value from where he was drafted....
But we have seen two different OL coaches, not make a difference in his play.....he gets beat by a speed rusher, he makes mental mistakes, and he is a holding penalty just waiting to happen....
Whitworth has averaged 9M the last 3 years....that is a huge gamble, to pay that kind of money for a 35 year old....and unfortunately, the trend for older players in coming here, is that they suddenly age/become injury prone.....Cinci could even sign him to another one year deal, especially if his roots there are strong....other teams need a LT also, and some of those teams are in better cap shape than the Giants....
I think the Giants will try to retain JPP or Hankins, but not both.....the fifth year option for Pugh is over 8M....do you pay that or do you give him a multiyear deal that is cap friendly over the next couple seasons, while taking the chance that he can stay on the field.....
Yes we can create more cap with some maneuvers, like Cruz either being cut outright or a pay cut.....
What it all comes down to is, what is really available out there and do we have enough cap space to make moves?
I don't feel Reese can do for the offense what he did for the defense last year, because he still needs to make decisions on Hankins/JPP, and we need another LB, CB, and FS...and Eli, once again, will be holding the short stick again....
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1. Sanu's deal isn't that big. $6.5M per season isn't even top 25 money and is less per year than Cruz signed for back in 2014.
2. Aiken didn't exactly light things up last year. I think he'll be looking at a deal closer to Rishard Matthews (3 yrs/$15M) than Sanu's.
You may be right, but I'm just not very comfortable with giving Aiken 5-6.5 mil per year. I just don't know how he'd perform in our offense. If he doesn't produce, we're essentially trading Cruz and his cap number for Aiken and his.
I'm just not sure what his upside is. He played with some decent complimentary pieces in Baltimore this year and didn't produce.
I feel we may be better off rolling the dice on a cost controlled mid round pick vs signing Aiken.
I agree with you. Don't really want any of the FA WRs as I think they'll all be overpaid and most of them have some question marks (lack of production, health, off field issues, etc). My preference would be to sign someone on a prove it deal like we did with Bennett or Keenan Robinson this past season.
Jerry isn't getting another $200 million in checks to fix the offense. I suspect we will be back to the standard Jerry Reese strategies of grabbing cheap stopgaps (like fork-in- the-back Whitworth), taking flyers on players who had a good year somewhere along the line but have fallen on hard times (Aiken) and drafting athletes and hoping they turn into star football players. We'll see.
1. Left O Tackle and a great DE
or a
2. Guard or two and a DT
to me, its a greater % chance to gain #2 via the draft than it is #1.
So that leads to a number of obvious conclusions about free agency and or line and gap duties with whom we have now.
Jerry isn't getting another $200 million in checks to fix the offense. I suspect we will be back to the standard Jerry Reese strategies of grabbing cheap stopgaps (like fork-in- the-back Whitworth), taking flyers on players who had a good year somewhere along the line but have fallen on hard times (Aiken) and drafting athletes and hoping they turn into star football players. We'll see.
Your "fork-in-the-back" LT made the Pro Bowl in 2016 and 2015, and was also an All-Pro in 2015 and 2014. The fact that you would characterize him as such makes the rest of your criticism laughable, in my opinion. Laughable, but without question typical of you.
DL
JPP/hank/snacks/Vernon
You do gain youth (helps obviously with contracts and cost in short term) on O and the transition years as per another thread.
OL
Pugh OLT
Moton OLG
Richburg C
Magnuson ORG
Flowers ORT
TE Shaheen
ODB
Shep
TBD
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Ninth overall pick in the draft. Not ready to admit that he blew it yet. Maybe if Whitworth could play right tackle, but don't think they want to play a 35 year old there. If they sign him they have to play him.
Flowers gets another chance, in training camp and preseason, and they'll have a contingency plan if he can't cut it, most likely trying him at right tackle. Jerry has already said that he's open to moving him there.
What contingency plan? If Flowers can't cut it at LT, do they even have a Plan B? Are they counting on a draftee to take his spot? As I said, leaving him at LT would be a huge gamble on Reese's part.
The issue is the went into the season w only two legit tackles on the team. For as good a job Reese did on D he's fucking clueless picking offensive linemen. Meh returns on Pugh and Richberg. Flowers is super young so he's going nowhere roster wise. They kept Siniorce Moss who was
About the most useless guy for 5 years. He should get a shot at LT but you need a plan The OL has been one of the worst in the NFL for 4 years in and row.
I honestly think I the need fresh eyes in the FO for OLs. Badly FA they aren't good and we can all pray Flowers can match his play w his draft status but this team can't emeu or pass block. 4 years? Enough
As far as a guy who could really help the offense I would go after Garcon. He is older like Whitworth but he can also get separation and open on his own. So if we are going for it he would be a nice addition.
'There are no other free agent OTs on the market that I'd like to see the Giants sign'...agreed
If Whitworth is signed there won't be a serious OG deal in the works...they'll rightfully play Flowers to continue his development and Hart showed enough to give him a run as well.
Also feel there could be a free agent DT signing based off the glut on the open market. Hankins could either be retained or replaced at a reasonable price.
Not a fan of throwing money at fringe guys like Aiken/Bolden...at least not before the draft. Sims may be a different story. I have to go to school on him a little bit more.
This is very important info.
I wondered the same. Found this on a website:
The fifth-year option pays players taken in the first 10 picks the transition tag—average salary of the top 10 earning players at the position.
So, I'd guess position counts.
Linky - ( New Window )
The 5th year option is calculated for Top 10 picks by the averaging the top ten highest salaries for players that played the same position. For players picked 11 - 32, the 5th year option is calculated by averaging the 3rd through the 25th salaries for players that played the same position. Obviously a 5th year option for LT is much greater than RG, etc.
As far as I know, it is broken down by position. LT, RT, etc. The deadline for picking up a 5th year option is the end of the 3rd contract year. If the organization has an idea that he is capable of playing RG, then it will influence a decision to pick up the option. If they stand pat hoping that Flowers improves and he doesn't, then they are literally rolling the dice by picking up an option for a position they know he can't play and they don't know if his is capable at another position. They could still pick it up and then move him as the option is based on the salary of the position that the player played the previous year.
Disregard my post on the option being broken down by specific position. I just searched around and can't find any definitive declaration stating such. So base any calculations on the general position. In the case of Top 10 picks where they only consider the top 10 highest salaries at a position, it very well might only factor LT salaries as they are likely the 10 highest tackle salaries. Whereas a tackle picked after the Top 10, would likely have Right and Left tackles factored in the top 25 salaries at a position.
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Ninth overall pick in the draft. Not ready to admit that he blew it yet. Maybe if Whitworth could play right tackle, but don't think they want to play a 35 year old there. If they sign him they have to play him.
Flowers gets another chance, in training camp and preseason, and they'll have a contingency plan if he can't cut it, most likely trying him at right tackle. Jerry has already said that he's open to moving him there.
What contingency plan? If Flowers can't cut it at LT, do they even have a Plan B? Are they counting on a draftee to take his spot? As I said, leaving him at LT would be a huge gamble on Reese's part.
What contingency plan? You've got a lot of young offensive linemen. During the offseason through the preseason games, pick two of them and have them work at LT. One of them they'll find can pass protect better than Flowers. Or before final cut down trade a low draft pick to a team that's cutting a decent LT due to age, salary or no place to play him.
Eli doesn't need a great player to take over the job. Just a good player. Remember that the team won two Super Bowls with David Diehl at left tackle.
Just saying that Jerry's ego will be a big part of this. No one wants a top ten bust on his record. Flowers, if he has the size and athleticism, he's going to have one of the OL positions, most likely right tackle.
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when you go out and sign the top 4 free agents before the market is even set and spend your #1 draft pick on one side of the ball, you are by definition singing "young, productive" players. They wouldn't be the top 4 free agents if they weren't. This is labeling desperation and hedging the rookie coach as a deliberate strategy when it's desperation and hedge.
Jerry isn't getting another $200 million in checks to fix the offense. I suspect we will be back to the standard Jerry Reese strategies of grabbing cheap stopgaps (like fork-in- the-back Whitworth), taking flyers on players who had a good year somewhere along the line but have fallen on hard times (Aiken) and drafting athletes and hoping they turn into star football players. We'll see.
Your "fork-in-the-back" LT made the Pro Bowl in 2016 and 2015, and was also an All-Pro in 2015 and 2014. The fact that you would characterize him as such makes the rest of your criticism laughable, in my opinion. Laughable, but without question typical of you.
So, I will stand by my comment. The Bengals are letting him walk for a reason. If this is your plan to improve LT, you may want to re-think.
I went back and looked at tape last week and the Giants really gave that side of the Bengal line lots of problems. Vernon had a big game going against both Whitworth and their left guard.
I think the Bengals have some younger O-lineman that they can plug in and don't want to keep throwing money at some aging roster spots.