Which guards do we want in FA

1. OG or OT to play OG, type
2. big DT
3. another 320lb OG

that said, if you go FA, get one, but get the very best one

.

or FA.
Especially if we invest in JPP and crew, as we should.

so:

Pugh/Rd1 OG]Richburg[Rd 3 OG\Flowers

the Giants are not really in a position to pay an interior OL unless they are set to move on from Richburg after next season. Pugh is getting his contract and if they're going to keep Richburg so will he.

The giants need tackles. A guard is fine in the draft but any big interior OL free agent signing seems unrealistic IMO.

I don't see how he plays RT. I do like Pugh as an option for LT.

so we have to replace at least him via FA or the draft.

show me how you get a high quality left tackle and also keep JPP and crew, hank, DRC.

Is there a lock left tackle at 23?

also, think about the age of free agents, lets not be the Knicks here, selling out the future for the moment.

In comment 13355271 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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the Giants are not really in a position to pay an interior OL unless they are set to move on from Richburg after next season. Pugh is getting his contract and if they're going to keep Richburg so will he. The giants need tackles. A guard is fine in the draft but any big interior OL free agent signing seems unrealistic IMO.

Don't agree. The Giants currently only have 1 starting guard on the roster. They have to get another guard via FA. Now, maybe it's Jerry at a modest price but I think they could afford, and could certainly use, to get someone better.

They actually are better off at tackle with Flowers and Hart under contract and the possibility of bringing Newhouse back at a modest price.

if Flowers can play RT, Jones, Jerry, Newhouse, Gettis or a draft pick can play RG.

If Flowers can't play RT, the Giants have a bigger problem than OG.

the following roster players played tackle in college and were ranked as tackles:

74 Ereck Flowers OT 6-6 329 23 2015/1 2019
68 Bobby Hart OT 6-4 334 23 2015/7 2019
73 Marshall Newhouse OT 6-4 328 29 2015/UFA UFA
65 Will Beatty OT 6-6 319 32 2009/2 UFA
?? Michael Bowie OT 6-5 320 26 2017/UFA 2018
67 Justin Pugh OG 6-4 301 27 2013/1 2018
77 John Jerry OG 6-5 340 31 2014/UFA UFA

what we need is one great OLT, or one decent one (Pugh may be that guy, or one great ORT

what we don't need is more tackles broadly.

'we think will be solid'

we already have 7 of those.

if we cannot get a great one in free agency, while also keeping the D intact, JPP, DRC, Hank, we may have to look to the draft.

now, at pick # 23:

- is there a rock solid lock OLT that is better than our best OLT (Pugh) ?

if not, you draft two guards.

which is more important position than RG, and not expecting to address both via UFA ($$$$).

He fits right in at the position he's played his whole career, right guard, and would immediately improve the Giants run game. He is young and has a history of good health, so a longterm contract with a decent chunk of guaranteed money won't be such a risky investment.

position.

My top choices if they shake free are Larry Warford from Detroit and Ron Leary from Dallas. They won't get top dollar on the market compared to Zeitler and Lang and both are young with Warford being 25 years old.

Moving Flowers to RT and putting a true Power run blocking mauler at RG would greatly improve the strong side of the Oline. If we could land OJ Howard in round 1 and land Whitworth in FA as well, you will see a very improved offense.

but would still leave the option open that at pick 23 your offensive lineman may project more reliably as a OLG and take that into consideration as to his style of play and measurable.

on the other hand there may be an actual legit left tackle, at 23, hope someone will chime in. Its a mystery in that regard.

could play at RG, and probably would be an improvement.

given our history of scouting, the clear "value trap" is at tackle, whereas for a player projected as guard you raise the success probability %ages greatly.

examples of the value trap is flowers, maybe pugh, maybe not, we don't know yet

and Newhouse on reasonable contracts and then draft someone like Dion Dawkins, who might be a very good OG in the pros.

In comment 13355319 idiotsavant said:

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but would still leave the option open that at pick 23 your offensive lineman may project more reliably as a OLG and take that into consideration as to his style of play and measurable. on the other hand there may be an actual legit left tackle, at 23, hope someone will chime in. Its a mystery in that regard.

It depends on how the Giants grade Ramczyk, Robinson, and Bolles. In all likelihood, two of the three will be gone before the Giants select, but if the Giants have a first round grade on all three, there's a decent chance at least one of them will be available.

Pugh/dawkins/rich/zeitler/hart

?

they go OT in FA, and possibly a bargain G. I don't expect they will cough up a big bonus for a guy like Zietler with Richburg and Pugh's contracts looming.

That said, we didn't expect them to sign Harrison with Hankins on his last year either.

Also, I think the Giants will view it as money invested in the OL not "interior OL". I'm not sure they will make that distinction. They like versatile guys, and I suspect they would spend on any OL that will improve the unit.

there is not a legit left tackle at #23. Robinson is Flowers all over again and Ramczyk already has injury issues. I don't think there's value until Rds 3-4. On the other hand, there are some guards to like in late rounds. Isadora in 5? Pyke in 7?

its an arbitrary self-limit to assume 'no OT to play OG at 23.'

and any time you do that you close your thinking a bit

They are cheap and we know their floor. Hart is not being gifted a starting spot anywhere if we want the line to improve. Beatty won't be back so I expect another FA tackle brought in - he likely will be a flawed player. I can't fathom the team spending 5-10 a year on a free agent "stud" guard or this offseason. I expect them to draft at least one OL and obviously bring in some UDFAs and cheap free agents to camp.

I'm not seeing the silver bullet free agent out there. If they don't get Whitworth for a decent 1-3 year deal I expect them to look for bargains and depth in free agency for the OL. Overpaying middling talent then being forced to potentially pay big for Pugh and Richburg soon is a great way to have an extremely expensive OL that isn't very good.

such as moton, Magnusson, deilman, dawkins, asiata, siragusa

2 of whom who may make the overall line play with existing roster of pugh/rich/flowers or hart much better.

keep the pocket clean, help richburg out with the big nose tackles, and add power to run gap openings.

is unlike NYG, and they've already decided it's not Pugh's permanent home.

Acquiring a LT will prove difficult, more likely they go after Zeitler or similar.

with two legit football players at guard at 320lbs, players who can do all the little things and fire out quickly.

this would be a fundamentally different football team

its also the result of the logic that seeks WRs and skinny edge rushers each and every year.

and the funny thing, whereas it seems too much to ask for, it imminently more achievable than the great OLT

possibly make the job for (pugh/flowers or hart at OT) that much easier

as the OT's would be free to chase d ends out and away from the guards, i.e. the guards would need no help and could scoot left or right as needed

...to have OL problems. Zeitler would be the safest if you're going to pay more for a player than you want to. Not to mention if they decide to sit on their hands they could face the potential of having to address both OG spots next year.

each year, even within early OTs.

There are some distinct schools of thought:

"great feet great athlete, football player, pure OT will never be a guard, too high not enough low anchor"

(love to have one, if one exists, what we sought with beatty but albeit had warts in college)

"big strong OT who MIGHT project to both guard or tackle"

(we have 2 or even 3 or 4 of those and its not been great so far)

"OT who may never play OT in the NFL, but measures and appears in play style to project as a great perennial pro-bowl type guard"

(lets be specific here, two of those or one and a pure guard would be helpful, as far as I can tell we have never drafted one of these)

In comment 13355271 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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the Giants are not really in a position to pay an interior OL unless they are set to move on from Richburg after next season. Pugh is getting his contract and if they're going to keep Richburg so will he. The giants need tackles. A guard is fine in the draft but any big interior OL free agent signing seems unrealistic IMO.

They could just as easily move on from Pugh after 2017. He's only signed for this year under his 5th year option. So if they view Zietler as a superior OG to Pugh, they could sign Zietler long term and go with Pugh-Richburg-Zietler for 2017 while looking for another (cheaper), long-term option for 2018 at LG.

And if they think Richburg/Pugh are comparable players, then Richburg's health would put him over the top (if they only want to keep 1 long term).

Or, they could try and keep both Richburg/Pugh long term and look for a OT (Hart to OG?) or a 2nd tier RG in FA (Warmack/Joeckl?).

In comment 13355277 robbieballs2003 said:

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I don't see how he plays RT. I do like Pugh as an option for LT.

It might be more natural for him to move from right to left rather than left to right. We can only hope.

when I hear 'cheap, long term' I think draft.

where it can be 'great, affordable, long term' if not all inclusive through the career, parts of each along the way

Warford having already played RG which is a huge need IMO

If we do, then maybe we just bring Jerry back. If we don't, then maybe you think about moving Pugh to LT and signing 2 starting quality guards.

Ideally, we'd find someone with some versatility at RG/RT to protect ourselves from Flowers being an absolute zero.

In comment 13355313 idiotsavant said:

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'we think will be solid' we already have 7 of those. if we cannot get a great one in free agency, while also keeping the D intact, JPP, DRC, Hank, we may have to look to the draft. now, at pick # 23: - is there a rock solid lock OLT that is better than our best OLT (Pugh) ? if not, you draft two guards.

You think that list has 7 solid tackles? holy shit.

I'd expect contact to be made, if they decide to upgrade RG.

They may reach out to Whitworth, Leary, and Zeitler but I don't think the Giants will offer what they're looking for.

Odds are the Giants dumpster dive in FA and look for guys in the draft at some point.

In comment 13355525 WillVAB said:

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They may reach out to Whitworth, Leary, and Zeitler but I don't think the Giants will offer what they're looking for. Odds are the Giants dumpster dive in FA and look for guys in the draft at some point.

I agree, especially regarding the OGs. I don't see the Giants FO valuing the interior OL enough to have 3 well paid guys there (Pugh + Richburg starting in 2018).

My guess is they try and get a guy like Warmack on a "prove it" type deal for 2017. If they can't get any of the guys on that level, then unfortunately I expect Jerry and/or Newhouse to be brought back.

"look for guys in the draft at some point" to fill starting roles unless and only maybe - depending on position if it's 1st round.

Reese's MO is more to fill the obvious holes in FA, even if that means dumpster diving, or talking up in-house on-roster players to fill those holes allowing for the most flexibility come draft day.

even with the new CBA and 4-year contract (plus option for 1st rounders) you cannot pencil in a draftee as a starter without a backup plan unless it's a 1st round pick.

In comment 13355331 idiotsavant said:

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Pugh/dawkins/rich/zeitler/hart ?

He played LT at Temple. But he's a big, strong guy (317 pounds) and likely could play either Guard spot well.

And shouldn't be top dollar. Detroit could let him go also if the resign Riley.

Leary would be ok too, and Cowboys are not going to put up a fight to keep him, because of CAP and replacement on roster.

Lang is certainly interesting, though I think he'll get more the spotrac thinks. Zeitler too expensive for me.

Tim Lelito might be a good option also.

Luke Joeckel for 1.8 mil as spotrac predicts, sign him up as swing tackle/guard.

In comment 13355278 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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so we have to replace at least him via FA or the draft.

C'mon. John Jerry is fine as a backup guard. Any upgrade from JJ is starter quality today.

Luke Joeckel reclamation project.

I have no idea what scheme the Jags played, but maybe he'd do well under Solari.

In comment 13355544 pjcas18 said:

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"look for guys in the draft at some point" to fill starting roles unless and only maybe - depending on position if it's 1st round. Reese's MO is more to fill the obvious holes in FA, even if that means dumpster diving, or talking up in-house on-roster players to fill those holes allowing for the most flexibility come draft day. even with the new CBA and 4-year contract (plus option for 1st rounders) you cannot pencil in a draftee as a starter without a backup plan unless it's a 1st round pick.

You're right for the most part but I think this year it's a matter of priorities and finite dollars. JPP and Hankins will be the top priorities. While the Giants are negotiating with those players teams will also be negotiating with the top FA OL. Some or all of those guys could be signed before the Giants even get a serious crack at them. Plus it's a pretty weak FA OL class overall.

Dumpster diving a few guys is the most likely scenario IMO along with a pick or two in the mid rounds who will compete. I'm sure they have their eye on a few guys they project to be around later in the draft who they think have the ability to impact quickly.

on a cap friendly deal and will be looked upon to be the back up. We need to get a mauler in there once and for all. This running game has to get better this year or we'll be staring at another bottom of the league offense.

yes, and a few who may still have that potential.

but, statement was to the effect that if you add a tackle, they ought to be a far and above lock, and I don't see how that happens in likelihood.

guards then, may be

Could be our starting RG.

I'd add one of Leary or Warford (or one of the other solid options that aren't likely to break the bank) and walk away from FA with at least a solid middle of the line.

If we can add a solid LT via FA or trade, great, but I'' less confident that we can do that than add a solid RG. We should still add at least one Vet OT but I'm not sure we'll be able to fully address the LT problem (for example, we may be able to sign Reiff as RT/LT competition but I'm not sure that solves the LT problem).

it still leads me back to Pugh as left tackle:

Pugh/1st rounder\[richburg]/#1 FA\Flowers

that gives you hart and your older JAG OLT as back up tackles

and either jerry or newhouse as all around interior/exterior back up

.

but if its Moton:

Pugh/Moton[Richburg]Zeitler\Flowers

does not sound too shabby

In comment 13355495 JonC said:

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I'd expect contact to be made, if they decide to upgrade RG.

I like Warford at RG. The ability to run the ball will do wonders for this offense, especially not asking Flowers to pass block over 35 times a game regardless of what Tackle position he plays.

In comment 13355277 robbieballs2003 said:

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I don't see how he plays RT. I do like Pugh as an option for LT.

I agree, whats going to change for Flowers at RT, good pass rushers come from both sides now and so far Flowers has shown that he can't handle good pass rushers.