assuming you're moving Flowers to RT. If you move him to RG, then LT/RT. I don't think TE would be the huge pressing need it seems if the running game could get on track without keeping a TE to block every time, and the WRs would look much better as well.
If we can upgrade there I believe Flowers will be a monster at RG. That solves the O-line woes.
Next would be the WR opposite OBJ. Cruz was ineffective in that role and Sheppard is a fixture in the slot for years to come. We went into the season saying we had to upgrade Reuben Randle instead we downgraded.
for me its more about where the % to be likely useful parts can be found, is it free agency, or the draft, and if so, which round.
then, putting aside the common palaver, I look at our own draft history and general tends instead.
for example, some have mentioned that 'the injury of our only fullback on the roster killed half the playbook'. so you could say its important.
however, good fullbacks can be found in mid-late rounds.
to me its false to ascribe the earliest rounds to the 'most important piece'. instead, ascribe the rounds because you wont find that piece any lower.
so, for '3rd tall outside wr', for example, considering we have shep, odb and king already, (and some slot wrs like Edwards in waiting) and that this is a role player, not a home run hitter, a late round might work fine.
with regards to history here at NYG, (Diehl being the happy exception maybe) at least recently, our narrative that 'you can find good OLers off the scrap heap or in mid late rounds' has not proven true enough to be helpful.
We had a solid middle last year, despite some bumps in the road. Our tackles were the hole on our line.
I agree with the OP totally.
A solid LT lets Flowers move over to the right side, where he'll have a much easier time. Even bringing back Jerry as a starter wouldn't be a major step back. I think we should draft an interior guy, because I think a guy like Taylor Moton fits our 2nd round value and can be a starter (and a future staple of the line), but Jerry is still really good depth at that point.
TE is definitely a need at this point, after the self-destruction of LD over the past two years and the revelation that Will Tye is our best player at the position.
And to me, a play maker out of the RB or WR spot is third. Whoever can come in and be a factor the defense has to account for is the next man up. With Perkins and Vereen, WR makes more sense to go after, but I think a great RB would make a big difference as well. I also think just giving more carries to Perkins and Vereen will lighten the load of Odell carrying this offense. I think we've sold our O short in some ways. Perkins and Vereen averaged over 4 ypc. Jennings averaged 3.3 ypc and had more carries than the other two combined.
Still, the production drop off from Randle to Cruz was a big hit. So, WR X is my third pick.
But, RG is not in the top three here. I'd put another RB over RG. The value in going after an RG should be to get a young guy, since Jerry is/was our oldest lineman and it would be nice to have a young stud line like our secondary is shaped up to be.
pass protecting and pass receiving FB or RB' could radically improve our offense, would that mean drafting on in round one?
No, that would be insane.
Those types are not hyped enough to push them so high in the draft. If all you seek is;
'a great, savvy pass protector, blitz picker-upper, who is a reliable route runner with good hands and is somewhat hard to bring down, decent but nothing to write home about speed.'
...or moves to the right side at either guard or tackle, the same questions follow. At this point there is absolutely no reason to expect he would be an improvement over either Jerry or Newhouse.
Teams use fewer and fewer fullbacks, however, college teams -each- have 3 or 4 'starting wrs', often with good kids sitting on the sideline. So it stands to reason that there will be more athletes leaving college with "wr" numbers on the jersey, some of whom may play at other positions if they can.
Add in the small school factor, diminishing the ranking view
Add in the unusual body type factor, and per the numbers, its fairly likely that you can find an H back or even a pass catching fullback by seeking out shorter heavier wrs who have had very good production at a lower level.
The question remaining would be 'can they take the beating in pass protection', (you may not want to use them as classic fullbacks making holes for RBs, but it is still a valueable spot in our system now, one that need not have the height):
Robert Davis 6'2" 225
(if he drops to 5th, 6th or 7th rounds or UDFA, which is very possible)
(cbs draft)
"STRENGTHS: Davis is a coordinated athlete with good overall size and muscle definition for the position. He accelerates fluidly, showing at least moderate top-end speed as well as deceptive burst to squirt through traffic and break into the open field. He is an effective route-runner, demonstrating just enough burst and balance out of his breaks to generate separation. He was asked to run a variety of pro-style routes in this offense, showing the awareness and body control to set up defenders with effective double-moves. He possesses good body control to contort in the air, spinning to be an effective weapon on back shoulder fades. Davis is a generally reliable hands-catcher.
>>>>>>>>>He is an effective vertical threat, showing acceleration as well as the vision and balance necessary to track the ball over his shoulder.
WEAKNESSES: Davis was a man amongst boys at this level and may lack the straight-line speed necessary to keep defenders from crowding him at the line of scrimmage. He is more smooth than explosive out of his breaks, creating slivers of space that NFL quarterbacks may opt to avoid. Davis needs to do a better job of high-pointing passes, catching balls at eye-level rather than extending his arms and boxing out defenders as effectively as his size suggests.
IN OUR VIEW: Davis slipped through the recruiting cracks but he is far from anonymous to NFL scouts, who see a big-bodied receiver with the production, physicality and experience in a pro-style scheme
"
Whether it's RG, RT or LT, we have three big leaks on the OL and that makes everything on offense a huge challenge. Until someone in this front office or staff actually can spot OL talent we're hosed. We keep signing garbage and apparently drafting garbage on the OL, it cannot possibly be this hard to do.
However painful it is to Reese, I think he's finally started to accept it. It's a recurring nightmare - "Short Arms" Pugh failed at RT and he had to move him to left guard.
I agree, Flowers could be dominant at RG (as dominant, and maybe better than the Skins' Brandon Sherff [another good ex college tackle who is strong as an ox, but doesn't have pro tackle feet]
(Whether that takes signing an expensive free agent or moving up in the draft, they have no choice). In the draft, Ramczyk (coming off hip surgery !), Bolles, and Moton should be available at the bottom of the 1st round
2. Victor Cruz is STILL a very good SLOT receiver (but Shepard is here now); This team is DESPERATE for a complimentary wide-out. If we can't land Alshon Jeffery the draft features three possible solutions in the 2n & 3rd rounds - WR, UCLA's Ju-Ju Smith-Schuster; WR, (the next ) Eastern Washington's Cooper Kupp; TE to WR conversion, Miami's David Njoku
3. No fullback, right behind the disaster at left tackle and Eli not having a good wideout to throw to besides OBJ - the reasons the offense went from 6th best to 25th. Solution - Florida State's Freddie Stevenson, who will be available in the 4th or 5th rounds.
Everything else (including a tight end) are second tier needs.
Your team from the closest to the Ball back.
Meaning OL and DL first. Giants don't follow that concept.
And have wasted a franchise QB from really attaining his best.
Eli is doomed to try to avoid sacks for the rest of his career.
BBI fans on the 'Two TE ' thread say that they want Hodges in the 3rd as a wr/hb/te.
ok:
by round
1. Moton as a right guard
2. Asiata as a big left guard
3. Hodges wr/te/hb
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
keep current defense stars with free agent money
OL
Pugh/Asiata/Richburg\Moton\Flowers\Shaheen
4 'receivers' look
ODB/Hodges/Shep/Staples
red zone look
ODB/Hodges/Seals-Jones and run power right w perkins
BBI fans on the 'Two TE ' thread say that they want Hodges in the 3rd as a wr/hb/te.
ok:
by round
1. Moton as a right guard
2. Asiata as a big left guard
3. Hodges wr/te/hb
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
keep current defense stars with free agent money
OL
Pugh/Asiata/Richburg\Moton\Flowers\Shaheen
4 'receivers' look
ODB/Hodges/Shep/Staples
red zone look
ODB/Hodges/Seals-Jones and run power right w perkins
With Eli's window
I think the Giants are going to fix the oline in FA. LT and RG being the quick fix. Jerry will use the draft to get offensive pieces TE WR RB and defense DE CB it's his MO and wouldn't be surprised if first pick is a CB or DE.
nor would it surprise me either that we suck really badly shortly after manning retires, half the OL also retires, and by then the D is gone as well!
Don't give up yet .
This year and next year are the times the team will be going after it. I expect a. Big FA period and Draft-like last year guys will be counted on to contribute right away.
I also believe the heat is on the GM and staff to find the pieces.
sign Whitworth
Mr. Nickels : 5:45 pm : link : reply
to play LT.
Move Flowers to RG.
Draft Ramcyzk and start him at RT (he will move to LT when he's ready and whitworth moves on)''
if it is doable.
but that means, whichever pick is left after trading up for Ramcyzk you ought to use that for for a big DT, so don't get your hopes up for lots of roll players on O.
OJB is the only person on this offense who can make a big play. Don't get me wrong the OL needs help but even if you fix the OL you need people who scare a defense. Fix OL in FA. Draft a guy like Howard or Njoku who will cause big problems for a defense.
at the very minimum, replace one of either Jerry or Newhouse, preferably both...what you absolutely cannot do is start the season with both of them together as 2/5ths of the starting lineup.
Reese did exactly that and that's why Reese gets a negative grade from me.
And now Flowers is a problem going into next season.
We need a DE, DT(because Hankins and JPP are not signed), LB, CB, FS, 2 OLmen, TE, WR, and a RB....that's quite a few pieces to get....and we don't have 200M to get them.....never mind more quality depth...and don't expect much help from the draft...you might get one quality starter out of it...
Does Reese shoot his wad going for big priced free agents, or does he wait, hoping guys fall to him?
Hard decisions have to be made...all the needs can't be filled with the type of players we want....if Reese is not successful, this team may not be as good as last year's....have to hope the pieces fall into place.......it's going to be a long 10 weeks to the draft...
If Zeke Eliot were on this team we become SB favorites.
I get the need to upgrade the line, but a franchise back can do that on his own.
If Zeke Elliot were on this team, no one would be talking about him. He would have averaged less than four yards a carry. He is noteworthy only because the Cowboys have a great OL. True for Prescott as well.
If I'm not mistaken, every team we played this year used a Tampa 2 (or some minor derivative of the 2 high safety defense) against our offense. Maddening, but true, the Giants offense couldn't break this relatively simple coverage because we didn't have a threat up the seam from the TE position and we couldn't effectively run the ball. I think our defense would be drastically better (it couldn't possibly be any worse) if we had a TE that could get up the seam quickly and reliably catch passes. If that player could also block effectively, great, even better, because our run game really suffered from the inability of our TE and receivers to effectively block the run game.
From the RB position we have a lack of any playmaking ability. Our backs weren't really bruisers able to grind down a defense and our backs couldn't make anyone miss in the hole or get outside to make a play.
I know the line is much maligned and for good reason. But the parts of an offense that would compliment our offense are - I think - as bad or even worse. At least on the line there's continuity - which is really important - and there is some talent. No line in the NFL is stacked with Pro Bowlers at every position. But if you have a running back that can make a play in the hole or get to the outside, you don't need to hold your blocks forever. If you have a TE that help in blocking - that's great too - and if you have TE that's a serious threat in the middle of the field - wow - you might even be able to get away with running the same personnel set for every play.
Also, I'm no draft guru, but my guess is that there's likely not some Pro Bowl can't miss LT we can just grab in the first round. And the FA market at LT is thin too. I'd love to see Flowers take a step forward and turn into a reliably good LT. I think a playmaker at TE and RB would go a long way towards fixing the offense.
Obviously the offensive line which includes the tightend
For me, next is blocking tight end. Not only is a competent blocker needed, but the coaches need to build schemes around it. We saw it a few times this season, where a 6th OL came in as a blocker.
I am afraid that the coaching staff is not committed to this as a scheme.
So, after solving the LT dilemma; 1. invest in a blocking TE, and 2. Commit to using him especially as part of the run game.
TE is #2
An outside WR to compliment 13 and 87 is #3.
Accomplish this (along with bringing back JPP) and this is a SB team.
TE is next. The Giants have backups at best there and the blocking and YAC is putrid.
Next would be the WR opposite OBJ. Cruz was ineffective in that role and Sheppard is a fixture in the slot for years to come. We went into the season saying we had to upgrade Reuben Randle instead we downgraded.
then, putting aside the common palaver, I look at our own draft history and general tends instead.
for example, some have mentioned that 'the injury of our only fullback on the roster killed half the playbook'. so you could say its important.
however, good fullbacks can be found in mid-late rounds.
to me its false to ascribe the earliest rounds to the 'most important piece'. instead, ascribe the rounds because you wont find that piece any lower.
so, for '3rd tall outside wr', for example, considering we have shep, odb and king already, (and some slot wrs like Edwards in waiting) and that this is a role player, not a home run hitter, a late round might work fine.
with regards to history here at NYG, (Diehl being the happy exception maybe) at least recently, our narrative that 'you can find good OLers off the scrap heap or in mid late rounds' has not proven true enough to be helpful.
I agree with the OP totally.
A solid LT lets Flowers move over to the right side, where he'll have a much easier time. Even bringing back Jerry as a starter wouldn't be a major step back. I think we should draft an interior guy, because I think a guy like Taylor Moton fits our 2nd round value and can be a starter (and a future staple of the line), but Jerry is still really good depth at that point.
TE is definitely a need at this point, after the self-destruction of LD over the past two years and the revelation that Will Tye is our best player at the position.
And to me, a play maker out of the RB or WR spot is third. Whoever can come in and be a factor the defense has to account for is the next man up. With Perkins and Vereen, WR makes more sense to go after, but I think a great RB would make a big difference as well. I also think just giving more carries to Perkins and Vereen will lighten the load of Odell carrying this offense. I think we've sold our O short in some ways. Perkins and Vereen averaged over 4 ypc. Jennings averaged 3.3 ypc and had more carries than the other two combined.
Still, the production drop off from Randle to Cruz was a big hit. So, WR X is my third pick.
But, RG is not in the top three here. I'd put another RB over RG. The value in going after an RG should be to get a young guy, since Jerry is/was our oldest lineman and it would be nice to have a young stud line like our secondary is shaped up to be.
OLT>TE>WR(x)>RB>RG
No, that would be insane.
Those types are not hyped enough to push them so high in the draft. If all you seek is;
'a great, savvy pass protector, blitz picker-upper, who is a reliable route runner with good hands and is somewhat hard to bring down, decent but nothing to write home about speed.'
Those can be had in rounds 4-7 typically.
Teams use fewer and fewer fullbacks, however, college teams -each- have 3 or 4 'starting wrs', often with good kids sitting on the sideline. So it stands to reason that there will be more athletes leaving college with "wr" numbers on the jersey, some of whom may play at other positions if they can.
Add in the small school factor, diminishing the ranking view
Add in the unusual body type factor, and per the numbers, its fairly likely that you can find an H back or even a pass catching fullback by seeking out shorter heavier wrs who have had very good production at a lower level.
The question remaining would be 'can they take the beating in pass protection', (you may not want to use them as classic fullbacks making holes for RBs, but it is still a valueable spot in our system now, one that need not have the height):
Robert Davis 6'2" 225
(if he drops to 5th, 6th or 7th rounds or UDFA, which is very possible)
(cbs draft)
"STRENGTHS: Davis is a coordinated athlete with good overall size and muscle definition for the position. He accelerates fluidly, showing at least moderate top-end speed as well as deceptive burst to squirt through traffic and break into the open field. He is an effective route-runner, demonstrating just enough burst and balance out of his breaks to generate separation. He was asked to run a variety of pro-style routes in this offense, showing the awareness and body control to set up defenders with effective double-moves. He possesses good body control to contort in the air, spinning to be an effective weapon on back shoulder fades. Davis is a generally reliable hands-catcher.
>>>>>>>>>He is an effective vertical threat, showing acceleration as well as the vision and balance necessary to track the ball over his shoulder.
WEAKNESSES: Davis was a man amongst boys at this level and may lack the straight-line speed necessary to keep defenders from crowding him at the line of scrimmage. He is more smooth than explosive out of his breaks, creating slivers of space that NFL quarterbacks may opt to avoid. Davis needs to do a better job of high-pointing passes, catching balls at eye-level rather than extending his arms and boxing out defenders as effectively as his size suggests.
IN OUR VIEW: Davis slipped through the recruiting cracks but he is far from anonymous to NFL scouts, who see a big-bodied receiver with the production, physicality and experience in a pro-style scheme
"
However painful it is to Reese, I think he's finally started to accept it. It's a recurring nightmare - "Short Arms" Pugh failed at RT and he had to move him to left guard.
I agree, Flowers could be dominant at RG (as dominant, and maybe better than the Skins' Brandon Sherff [another good ex college tackle who is strong as an ox, but doesn't have pro tackle feet]
(Whether that takes signing an expensive free agent or moving up in the draft, they have no choice). In the draft, Ramczyk (coming off hip surgery !), Bolles, and Moton should be available at the bottom of the 1st round
2. Victor Cruz is STILL a very good SLOT receiver (but Shepard is here now); This team is DESPERATE for a complimentary wide-out. If we can't land Alshon Jeffery the draft features three possible solutions in the 2n & 3rd rounds - WR, UCLA's Ju-Ju Smith-Schuster; WR, (the next ) Eastern Washington's Cooper Kupp; TE to WR conversion, Miami's David Njoku
3. No fullback, right behind the disaster at left tackle and Eli not having a good wideout to throw to besides OBJ - the reasons the offense went from 6th best to 25th. Solution - Florida State's Freddie Stevenson, who will be available in the 4th or 5th rounds.
Everything else (including a tight end) are second tier needs.
As "the next Hawks HOF Steve Largent"; not fast, but great hands and body control.
Meaning OL and DL first. Giants don't follow that concept.
And have wasted a franchise QB from really attaining his best.
Eli is doomed to try to avoid sacks for the rest of his career.
ok:
by round
1. Moton as a right guard
2. Asiata as a big left guard
3. Hodges wr/te/hb
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
keep current defense stars with free agent money
OL
Pugh/Asiata/Richburg\Moton\Flowers\Shaheen
4 'receivers' look
ODB/Hodges/Shep/Staples
red zone look
ODB/Hodges/Seals-Jones and run power right w perkins
3. Hodges wr/te/hb 6'6"
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs 6'5"
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr 6'3"
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
seals jones video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LjGuMdKkww
ok:
by round
1. Moton as a right guard
2. Asiata as a big left guard
3. Hodges wr/te/hb
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
keep current defense stars with free agent money
OL
Pugh/Asiata/Richburg\Moton\Flowers\Shaheen
4 'receivers' look
ODB/Hodges/Shep/Staples
red zone look
ODB/Hodges/Seals-Jones and run power right w perkins
With Eli's window
I think the Giants are going to fix the oline in FA. LT and RG being the quick fix. Jerry will use the draft to get offensive pieces TE WR RB and defense DE CB it's his MO and wouldn't be surprised if first pick is a CB or DE.
Don't give up yet .
This year and next year are the times the team will be going after it. I expect a. Big FA period and Draft-like last year guys will be counted on to contribute right away.
I also believe the heat is on the GM and staff to find the pieces.
A TE can be like another OL imo
TE is #2
An outside WR to compliment 13 and 87 is #3.
Accomplish this (along with bringing back JPP) and this is a SB team.
So your cool with letting Hankins walk because I doubt we resign both
Move Flowers to RG.
Draft Ramcyzk and start him at RT (he will move to LT when he's ready and whitworth moves on)
Mr. Nickels : 5:45 pm : link : reply
to play LT.
Move Flowers to RG.
Draft Ramcyzk and start him at RT (he will move to LT when he's ready and whitworth moves on)''
if it is doable.
but that means, whichever pick is left after trading up for Ramcyzk you ought to use that for for a big DT, so don't get your hopes up for lots of roll players on O.
Reese did exactly that and that's why Reese gets a negative grade from me.
And now Flowers is a problem going into next season.
If Zeke Eliot were on this team we become SB favorites.
I get the need to upgrade the line, but a franchise back can do that on his own.
Does Reese shoot his wad going for big priced free agents, or does he wait, hoping guys fall to him?
Hard decisions have to be made...all the needs can't be filled with the type of players we want....if Reese is not successful, this team may not be as good as last year's....have to hope the pieces fall into place.......it's going to be a long 10 weeks to the draft...
If Zeke Eliot were on this team we become SB favorites.
I get the need to upgrade the line, but a franchise back can do that on his own.
If Zeke Elliot were on this team, no one would be talking about him. He would have averaged less than four yards a carry. He is noteworthy only because the Cowboys have a great OL. True for Prescott as well.
WR2 - #3
RG - #4
From the RB position we have a lack of any playmaking ability. Our backs weren't really bruisers able to grind down a defense and our backs couldn't make anyone miss in the hole or get outside to make a play.
I know the line is much maligned and for good reason. But the parts of an offense that would compliment our offense are - I think - as bad or even worse. At least on the line there's continuity - which is really important - and there is some talent. No line in the NFL is stacked with Pro Bowlers at every position. But if you have a running back that can make a play in the hole or get to the outside, you don't need to hold your blocks forever. If you have a TE that help in blocking - that's great too - and if you have TE that's a serious threat in the middle of the field - wow - you might even be able to get away with running the same personnel set for every play.
Also, I'm no draft guru, but my guess is that there's likely not some Pro Bowl can't miss LT we can just grab in the first round. And the FA market at LT is thin too. I'd love to see Flowers take a step forward and turn into a reliably good LT. I think a playmaker at TE and RB would go a long way towards fixing the offense.
For me, next is blocking tight end. Not only is a competent blocker needed, but the coaches need to build schemes around it. We saw it a few times this season, where a 6th OL came in as a blocker.
I am afraid that the coaching staff is not committed to this as a scheme.
So, after solving the LT dilemma; 1. invest in a blocking TE, and 2. Commit to using him especially as part of the run game.