Start with interior
1. Sign Pugh. 5 years 40-45 million. Very reasonable
2. Sign Kevin Zeitler. 5 years. 40-45 million. Again very reasonable
3. Extend Richburg. 4 years 16 million If he doesn't resign then put Brett Jones at center. Honestly. Richburgh hasn't proven he's worth more than that
So the interior of the line is now set for the next 5 years and has taken up 20 million of the cap per year
Here the debate
Keep Flowers at LT another year and pray he develops He's still very young
If he doesn't then we need to get another LT either thru draft or FA but the LT position right now isn't killing the cap
Draft Taylor Moton in the second round and put him at RT
Again his salary isn't killing our cap space
If Moton develops and Flowers doesn't maybe switch them and still we are preserving our cap space for another 3-4 years until Moton becomes a FA
I think this kid has a big future
Reserves
Bobby Hart. Swing tackle
Brett Jones backup guard or center
John Jerry. Backup guard
I'm sure there are a couple of hiccups in my philosophy that BBI will disagree with but I think adding Zeitler and Moton goes a long way in improving the running game and keeping Eli upright and healthy
Not to create another hole on the line so if we do consider signing Pugh, it should be tied to being active on game day. He doesn't know what it is like to play 16 games a season except for his rookie year. I know the injuries aren't his fault, but we all just witnessed Mack playing in a Superbowl with a broken leg. Despite his warts, we saw Flowers gut it out on a high ankle sprain his rookie year.
If we are going to value a starting guard at 8 mil/year, then we should sign a player who has a history of playing a full season.
Probably a reason for that, instead of a long term deal....
Reese shouldn't be signing players now only because of there draft status. He's already has a pretty remarkable reputation as it relates to 1st round draft picks. He has never signed a 1st round draft pick that he selected to a multi-year contract.
Probably a reason for that, instead of a long term deal....
The 5th year option is only guaranteed for injury if he is on the active 53 roster at the start of the season. I know it is a harsh business, but considering the salary cap charge of 8+ million for Pugh, they should explore signing a replacement that doesn't have an injury history. If they can't come to terms with a replacement then explore a contract extension that pays him for each game that he is active.
I think Pugh may always have been the better left tackle prospect than Flowers, and both as well as the center will benefit from having serious talent at guard.
That said, I have not done my own research on guards in the draft and will willingly abide if anyone wants to suggest for even better future great OLG draftees.
keep in mind any Right Tackle may have a much better blocker to his right as well in a new TE.
Quote:
Keep Flowers at LT another year and pray he develops
Now I lay me down to sleep.
May Ereck Flowers make the leap,
From turnstile to a Tackle skilled,
So Eli Manning won't get killed.
And God bless robbie and all my friends at BBI.
Amen.
I could do this all day, the point is that looking at guards gives you more likely % success options and seems less risky than upgrading tackle at 23 given our history at that.
ok:
by round
1. Moton as a right guard
2. Asiata as a big left guard
3. Hodges wr/te/hb
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240
keep current defense stars with free agent money
OL
Pugh/Asiata/Richburg\Moton\Flowers\Shaheen
4 'receivers' look
ODB/Hodges/Shep/Staples
red zone look
ODB/Hodges/Seals-Jones and run power right w perkins
4. Shaneen TE 270lbs 6'5"
5. Stables wide right sideline type wr 6'3"
6. Seals Jones tall type wr 6'4" 240 6'4"
LT - Andrew Whitworth
LG - Justin Pugh *contract year
C - Richburg *contract year
RG - Flowers
RT - Hart/Newhouse/potential rookie/all available free agents in NFL
-------------
Don't do anything now with Pugh and Richburg, both guys are in contract years and should deliver.
And it's an old discussion but I really think Flowers would be of great benefit at G, in the run game. he can be a Larry Allen-type ass kicker, I really believe that. he's just playing the wrong position
PaulN : 1:21 pm : link : reply
This draft is good and deep at guard, this is where you draft into the strength of a draft, you add a guard and tackle in the draft and you add a tackle in free agency. You keep Jerry and let Beatty and Newhouse go. Why name names or extend anyone when you have a horrible line? It makes zero sense, nobody is worth much on this line. The only way to upgrade it is to replace players and create competition, the time to reward is off in the future, what are you rewarding? Incompetence, let's reward our least incompetent player? LOL! No way to run a railroad.''
(I would draft two lock pro bowl guards 1,2 rather than one and another ? at tackle.) we have those already, hehe.
PaulN : 1:21 pm : link : reply
This draft is good and deep at guard, this is where you draft into the strength of a draft, you add a guard and tackle in the draft and you add a tackle in free agency. You keep Jerry and let Beatty and Newhouse go. Why name names or extend anyone when you have a horrible line? It makes zero sense, nobody is worth much on this line. The only way to upgrade it is to replace players and create competition, the time to reward is off in the future, what are you rewarding? Incompetence, let's reward our least incompetent player? LOL! No way to run a railroad.''
(I would draft two lock pro bowl guards 1,2 rather than one and another ? at tackle.) we have those already, hehe.
AN FA and a pick. If they opt to keep EF at LT he will need help there, and if to RT he will need help there as well, being in a new position.
If at RG and he proves he can handle it then possibly the draft G can also play C, given WR is coming off a bad year and looked soft.
I like yet fear going after Whitworth; like if he is what he has been, fear he loses it going from 34-35(35-36?) this offseason(if they can get him at all).
it helps the existing tackles and the center play better as a unit, as the guards need to help then.
and, if you look at my draft and line, if QB rolls slightly right, he is behind moton/flowers/shaheen, that's a lot of beef on the right.
and they say asiata is a big slobbery sob who gets off the ball quick-like which is good on left with MacaDoo.
its a worthy investment if we value old mr mannigs brain-hole
...the one huge fly in the ointment is Ereck Flowers.
He not only washed out at Left Tackle, he has the distinct potential of washing out of the NFL.
A Top 10 NFL Draft Pick who regresses in Year 2 has a HUGE bust factor attached to him.
He looks like a one contract pro player to me, assuming he makes it to the end of that contract.
...the one huge fly in the ointment is Ereck Flowers.
He not only washed out at Left Tackle, he has the distinct potential of washing out of the NFL.
A Top 10 NFL Draft Pick who regresses in Year 2 has a HUGE bust factor attached to him.
He looks like a one contract pro player to me, assuming he makes it to the
end of that contract.
Yes M.S. I did say my thread came with some hiccups
Whitworth
Pugh
Richburg
Lang
Flowers/Hart/Newhouse
Lang is a f#cking badass who was dinged last year and may come at a discount. And he already knows the scheme.
Riley Reiff or Andrew Whitworth need to come in to play OLT.
Pugh is the LG of now and the future.
Richburg is the C of now and the future.
I like Taylor Moton in the second to play RG. John Jerry comes back as solid depth who can take over if Moton struggles.
Ereck Flowers plays RT, and finds it's a lot easier to come out of his stance and follow the slower, inferior LEs in the league than the explosive REs. His movements become more natural and over night he looks like a guy who's supposed to play in the NFL and wasn't a reach in the first round.
Newhouse and Hart round out the tackle depth, and Brett Jones stays as the back up center and potential LG.
We abandon Jennings to FA, and our running backs show that when they actually get some carries, they can produce.
You mean guys who can hold and not get caught, right?
Quote:
...the one huge fly in the ointment is Ereck Flowers.
He not only washed out at Left Tackle, he has the distinct potential of washing out of the NFL.
A Top 10 NFL Draft Pick who regresses in Year 2 has a HUGE bust factor attached to him.
He looks like a one contract pro player to me, assuming he makes it to the
end of that contract.
Yes M.S. I did say my thread came with some hiccups
I actually saw nothing wrong at all with your thread... it laid it all out, including the Ereck Flowers big question mark. I was just mouthing off because I am at the very low end of all the low end opinions about this guy on BBI. IMO, he's a bust... and he's not long in the NFL. He only makes it to the end of his Giants contract because the Giants organization doesn't want to admit what a bust he really is. Hope springs eternal for a Top 10 pick... until it doesn't. This guy will never flower.
LT - Andrew Whitworth
LG - Justin Pugh *contract year
C - Richburg *contract year
RG - Flowers
RT - Hart/Newhouse/potential rookie/all available free agents in NFL
-------------
Don't do anything now with Pugh and Richburg, both guys are in contract years and should deliver.
And it's an old discussion but I really think Flowers would be of great benefit at G, in the run game. he can be a Larry Allen-type ass kicker, I really believe that. he's just playing the wrong position
I agree fully about Flowers. That dude has RG written all over him.
Quote:
In comment 13357525 M.S. said:
Quote:
Thank you
...the one huge fly in the ointment is Ereck Flowers.
He not only washed out at Left Tackle, he has the distinct potential of washing out of the NFL.
A Top 10 NFL Draft Pick who regresses in Year 2 has a HUGE bust factor attached to him.
He looks like a one contract pro player to me, assuming he makes it to the
end of that contract.
Yes M.S. I did say my thread came with some hiccups
I actually saw nothing wrong at all with your thread... it laid it all out, including the Ereck Flowers big question mark. I was just mouthing off because I am at the very low end of all the low end opinions about this guy on BBI. IMO, he's a bust... and he's not long in the NFL. He only makes it to the end of his Giants contract because the Giants organization doesn't want to admit what a bust he really is. Hope springs eternal for a Top 10 pick... until it doesn't. This guy will never flower.
5.5 draft picks
10. Accrued for OBJ signing next year
That leaves about 23 BEFORE signing Hankins of JPP or their replacements.
Assuming they sign both, that's 22 (plus or minus) of the 23.
If they don't sign them then they have to sign replacements.
And all that's superfluous, because I'm not convinced that we have a head coach that is isn't out of his league and overwhelmed.
I see overwhelming evidence that's being ignored.
1. They had a top 6-10 offense, the personnel was improved, yet everyone on the offense underperformed and we went to the absolute bottom of the list. This in spite of the personnel improvement and defense that force 3 and outs.
2. The man is calling the plays. Ridiculous, and speaks to someone who is comfortable as OC and is retreating from the proper role of H.C.
3. He's dodged the blame for the Miami Fiasco, but that's clearly on him. Permission to NOT fly back with their teammates is never granted. Often players who have business in the town they played in fly back and get on the next plane back. The fact that he didn't have the colojones to say "no", speaks to someone who is try to be "popular". That's as healty as Socrates asking his mates to pass the Hemlock.
4. It's hard to make a case for an offense that has OBJ and Eli being as god awful as ours was. The sight of the winless Browns playing 4 in the box and we could run them out of it was convincing. The monotony of the same sets and dull play calling serves as confirmation. It's hard to be as bad as our offense was.
I am sixty years a fan and every year I'm filled with probably unreasonable optimism. Frankly, I think last year was our year and we blew it.
The O line is a complete mess. The stalwarts in Pugh and Richenberg are suspect and not the blocks you build a tall building on. Eli is reasonably starting a decline, the huge cap is illusionary, and their is - at this writing anyway - no proof that the HC is, indeed, a HC.
5.5 draft picks
10. Accrued for OBJ signing next year
That leaves about 23 BEFORE signing Hankins of JPP or their replacements.
Assuming they sign both, that's 22 (plus or minus) of the 23.
If they don't sign them then they have to sign replacements.
And all that's superfluous, because I'm not convinced that we have a head coach that is isn't out of his league and overwhelmed.
I see overwhelming evidence that's being ignored.
1. They had a top 6-10 offense, the personnel was improved, yet everyone on the offense underperformed and we went to the absolute bottom of the list. This in spite of the personnel improvement and defense that force 3 and outs.
2. The man is calling the plays. Ridiculous, and speaks to someone who is comfortable as OC and is retreating from the proper role of H.C.
3. He's dodged the blame for the Miami Fiasco, but that's clearly on him. Permission to NOT fly back with their teammates is never granted. Often players who have business in the town they played in fly back and get on the next plane back. The fact that he didn't have the colojones to say "no", speaks to someone who is try to be "popular". That's as healty as Socrates asking his mates to pass the Hemlock.
4. It's hard to make a case for an offense that has OBJ and Eli being as god awful as ours was. The sight of the winless Browns playing 4 in the box and we could run them out of it was convincing. The monotony of the same sets and dull play calling serves as confirmation. It's hard to be as bad as our offense was.
I am sixty years a fan and every year I'm filled with probably unreasonable optimism. Frankly, I think last year was our year and we blew it.
The O line is a complete mess. The stalwarts in Pugh and Richenberg are suspect and not the blocks you build a tall building on. Eli is reasonably starting a decline, the huge cap is illusionary, and their is - at this writing anyway - no proof that the HC is, indeed, a HC.
Outside of slot receiver, personnel did NOT improve. People seem overly focused on OL at times. Fixing the OL is not a panacea. Outside of two RBs and Z and slot receivers, we don't have a lot talent.
Jennings went from a 4+ ypc back in '15 to a 3.3 ypc back in '16. Vereen missed most of the season, leaving Jennings to be our most productive receiving back (average less than 6 ypc, a major decline from the '15 RB receiving numbers). Cruz was less productive as an X receiver than Randle was by a LOT (from 800 yards and 8 TDs in '15 to 600 yards and 1 TD in '16). Our TEs as a group also regressed. Our TEs of '15 had >700 yards and 5 TDs. This year they had ~600 yards and 3 TDs. Hart was a downgrade from Newhouse, and Flowers got worse as the season wore on. We did nothing last year to address our offensive needs outside of drafting Shep, leaving an entire position empty (FB) all season long.
Shep was the biggest improvement on O, everything else got worse. Luckily, Perkins seems ripe to take over for Jennings. Adding a late rounder to that group (Perkins and Vereen) should be a huge improvement. Adding a early or mid round TE should also be a big improvement. Adding a true X receiver should do wonders. And adding a true OLT should complete a major makeover.
I can't blame McAdoo for our offense not producing when our roster was so bare. We just didn't have the players to do anything.
I don't have a solution for the LT conundrum. I really like the idea of Flowers to RG. Find a RT in the draft. There has to be a competent LT in FA who is more likely to jump, and cheaper, than Whitworth. Reiff? Don't get me wrong. I would love to have Whitworth for two or three years. He seems like a consummate pro who still has some gas in the tank. Lomas Brown, the sequel. But I don't see it happening.
I really thought there would be improvement in the line this year, because we had the same guys coming back, after playing together for a year......how much the change in having a new OL coach affected the OL, remains to be seen...I do know that, Flowers did not get any better with a new coach....what does that say?
The OL, regretfully, is almost back to square one, if we can't find a LT, if we can't find a better position for Flowers to play, if Richburg does not play better, and if Pugh does go to LT, we STILL need two OLmen, and there will be new pieces and guys playing out of position, and once again this OL will go through growing pains....
One thing that can help this OL tremendously, is a strong blocking TE.....I can't believe we have ignored having a guy who can block at this position, for so many seasons....
I can't believe, how many times our TE's never chip blocked last season, especially the way the OL blocked while passing....
This offense has some serious problems....outside of OBj, who are the playmakers? Can you imagine what this offense would have looked like without OBj last season? There is no doubt in my mind, it would have been the worst offense in the NFL.....
Whereas everyone here says ''Pugh does all the little things correctly at guard, has quick feet and is a technician'', we overlook that this team is NOT the ''trapping, pulling technician based 'specialty run play' type OL'' that they were in years past - in terms of play calling. It seems we hardly see those plays now.
So, now, the team today: with seemingly nearly every play, the OL being asked to ''just sit on their heels and 'catch' defensive linesmen'' as part of a pass first, run second scheme, where play action is not a central theme, less athletic players like Jerry DO seem to fit in; he is a big guy at very least, who can stay on his heels and ''catch'' a DL, assuming there are not stunts and he is not asked to do much else.
Again, not that we as fans support that style, we don't, but Pugh was not good at it, lets be honest, it takes away the need for his best attributes; as a technician, angles, quickness, and asks him for brute strength, where he is not the best. Its a mismatch .
Am I remembering wrong or was there not a sequence mid late season where Pugh went out and Newhouse filled in as left guard?
It seemed the O functioned BETTER, not worse, as Newhouse may fit the 'sit and catch' method better, being another big slobbery knocker. He seemed to use the packers thing; grab the shoulder pads and lift, twist.
Again, not that any of us support the ''pass to set up the run and never let the OL tee off' theory, we don't have Aaron Rodgers, I really don't think we do like that style, but it seemed that Newhouse was better than Pugh within that, not worse.
If we go to a more Atlanta style OL scheme, fine, quick hard blocked runs to set up the play action and bootlegs. but even there, Pugh may simply not have the power.
So, lets be honest, we also need a better left guard than Pugh, and therefore, even if Pugh is only a -decent- left tackle, if we draft two big pro - bowl guards who can pull and trap and catch stunts and ALSO are big nasty fuckers who push the pile, this will be a different team fundamentally.
In short, my never ending silly rants about ''Pugh to OLT '' are also about the types of guards needed in a Macadoo / Packers type O and not just as an improvement over Flowers. In addition, Sullivan seems addicted to tweaky pass plays as opposed to power and play action, so, again, miss match.
Contrasting, Manning is an in the pocket defense reader and coach on the field, ok.
but that puts even -more- onus on powerful guards that can keep the interior pocket clean, not less, compared to the packers, and maybe asks a different skill set of tackles as well.
possibly we go back to a more run and play action based O next season, we saw a few moments here and there, but, do we really expect great changes in scheme?
Pugh probably = Reiff at LT, if you're going to sign RR, better to just move Pugh to LT and take advantage of a strong G market. Leary and Flowers at G (for example) would allow us to blast some holes open between the tackles.
The draft is a total crapshoot but if they get a potential starter in rounds 1-2, Jerry and/or Newhouse can be released later. If it happens, I would say Newhouse stays and Jerry goes because Newhouse can be swing tackle or either guard spot, but Jerry is effectively limited to RG and maybe Backup RT.
Regarding FA LTs, Whitworth is probably the best choice but likely will stay put. Reiff is the next best option because he could compete with Flowers at LT and in the unlikely event that Flowers holds on to LT, Reiff can play RT.
Flowers goes backwards after playing his freshman year with a high ankle sprain. A second year Flowers who is injury free Should have been "better personnel".
And dramatically so.
The Tight End from Stoney Brook Should have grown and should have been "better personnel".
Pugh in a new position and Richenberg in his third year should have been better. The camp Jerry went to meant he was "B.P."
The line should have profited from a year together under Mac's tuteledge.
Cruz and Shepard, along with King and Lewis should have been a huge upgrade over Randle and Harris.
So I think I"m saying the personnel was better and you're saying they didn't play better.
Bottom line - and I'll go with your point for the sake of arguement - the personnel didn't get better NEVERTHELESS, the offense went from good to awful.
CONCLUSION: The HC is overwhelmed. The only other alternative is Eli slipped dramatically and I just don't think that's so.
And if I"m right there's no reversing it. The trip to Miami says it all (maybe). He's weak, insecure and currying favor by trying to be popular and a Player's coach. The offense was predictable, unimaginative and dull. On the offensive side of the board there was a consistent and general pattern of underperformance and regression where there logically should have been progression.
I believe that we had the goods last year to go very deep in the playoffs and that things were set up for us. The Packers and Cowboys were very flawed teams.
We dramatically underperformed given our potential. And that was on the offense and the offense is on the OC/HC, who are unfortuanetly (and tragedically) the same.
remember, 'offensive linesman generalist' is something we have sought, and it may create a floor in terms of risk, ok that has value in terms of not falling off a cliff.
and whereas 'could play tackle' or ''left tackle prospect' is a word and a thing
the concept of college level tackle: 'who.will.spend.his.entire.nfl.career.at.guard' allows you to look for, focus in on, different body types and play styles and may gain you a -much better- guard than the 'jack of all trades' consideration gains you.
yes, I mean better than Pugh. For this team as constructed and as coached.
OTs who do everything well, ''great low base, balance, all factors, who are gamers and scrappers'' in college, and who are at a minimum 315lbs, more likely 320lbs, 330 and up, AND YET who are considered ''too short to be first round tackle prospects..'' some of those players are probowl guards in the 'packers+' mode, better than the packs guards but able to do those things.
then, also ''big pure college guards 320+, not too tall, who fire out very quickly and maintain balance, low power' , again, macadoos offense does not favor smaller guards nor probably tall skinny guards.
this is not the 2006 O.
that if run blocking on the move requires 'knee bend' to get under the LBs pads
that a perceived weakness at OT, being a bit short, might be a strength at guard, that would be called a value play.
I see Pugh as a good OLer stuck in a position, given that, in a system particularly, given Pack style and manning as pocket passer, that does not match him. do to body type.
It all may go back to the forcing of the flowers pick and possibly the tying of big Macs hands as to who plays where on the line.
had we gone for a big #1 bruiser guard when we drafted flowers we might be playing lights out right now.
Contrasting, Manning is an in the pocket defense reader and coach on the field, ok.
but that puts even -more- onus on powerful guards that can keep the interior pocket clean, not less, compared to the packers, and maybe asks a different skill set of tackles as well.
possibly we go back to a more run and play action based O next season, we saw a few moments here and there, but, do we really expect great changes in scheme?
The Pats look for o-lineman who can pass block. If they develop some run blocking skills, great, but their primary job is keeping the old qb upright. Their identity is the passing game. Dallas went the other route. They chose players who were great run blockers. They were not and are not great pass blockers (Romo has the broken bones to prove it), but they run block very well, and their offense is focused around the run.
We've got this mishmash of o-linemen- the ones who can pass block are not good run blockers, others are good run blockers and can't pass block. Is it any wonder that the offense struggles and has no identity?
Because, in our little fans pea brains we though our line play would mirror the 2005 Giants, where Pugh might have been a lights out guard.
Then, Jerry and Newhouse did better than expected. Why? Because we played like the 2005 Packers instead, and, if nothing else, those two don't get pushed back.
Conversely, not being asked to pull, trap, angle, and faced with the ever increasing size and quicks of DTs, Pugh got pushed back.
I am suggesting we invest early and heavily in guards that can do BOTH, pass and run block. Great footballers.
But NOT generalists in the sense of players 'who might play tackle one day' we have 7 of those already.
then, when Manning retires, we can also 'catch lightening in a bottle', just like Jerruh did with Prescott.
I like this. Whitworth and Leary or Warford at RG. Fix the OL.
LT - Andrew Whitworth
LG - Justin Pugh *contract year
C - Richburg *contract year
RG - Flowers
RT - Hart/Newhouse/potential rookie/all available free agents in NFL
-------------
Don't do anything now with Pugh and Richburg, both guys are in contract years and should deliver.
And it's an old discussion but I really think Flowers would be of great benefit at G, in the run game. he can be a Larry Allen-type ass kicker, I really believe that. he's just playing the wrong position
This!!! I have of the exact same thought with Flowers, RG, and comparison to Larry Allen [in my dreams, he would be that good]