You try and straight up negotiate an extension. If he wants too much you tag him and try to leverage better terms. If that doesn't work you try to trade him. If none of that works you deal with his holdout and eventually he'll report to get his service time.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
he's better of just LeBroning it and playing on 1 year Franchise Tag deals than accept $20-$30 million guaranteed. He's likely getting almost double that guaranteed.
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
was the dead cap if cut when he's slated to make $27 million? I don't think there's any possible way this happens.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
By now word has probably reached the agent as to potential suitors and open market value. If NYG is thinking about starting at $12M, it probably won't need to go a great deal higher.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
if they're going to pass on JPP (sounds unlikely), I'd target either Short (likely to be tagged) or Campbell. Campbell will likely end up a little cheaper then JPP and gives them a penetrating DT next to Snacks, not too mention a literal giant in the middle.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
They players are a tight knit group, he's had success with this defense and continuity is important to taking the next step. I do not see them letting JPP walk and then spending big money on another DE in FA. Personally, I don't see them letting JPP walk at all, but if it did come to that, I can see them signing a lower priced vet like they did a few years ago with Ayers.
Nick Perry fan depending on the money too. I am just as unsure with JPP as I am with Jones but if he's gonna cost $5 million less per year I'd rather spread the wealth. We need a good #2 WR and obvious help on the OL. If it means getting a top OL and Jones or Perry or just JPP and a lower level OL sign me up for the let JPP walk camp.
but when you prioritize them, #3 WR isn't at the top of the list. It's certainly on the list. My point being, its not something we need to allocate huge money towards. $5-6M per should get you a suitable player if they go the FA route, IMO.
It's a good idea to try to bring as much of it back as possible. I understand that JPP is an injury risk, and there's always the chance his work ethic regresses. I'd rather take that risk than try to find his replacement though.
no one in their right mind expected Cruz to return at anything near his scheduled contract. Similar for Jennings.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
and does have issues with consistency in staying in shape.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Exactly, Hankins is simply not the right man for the job. Yes, it's nice to have two big run-stuffers for short yardage situations, but outside of that you'd ideally like a true 3-technique to complement Harrison. Maybe they'll find it in the draft. Maybe Bromley will suddenly become the guy they drafted him to be. Or maybe Odiggittygiggityzuwa will put on ten pounds and be the answer.
It was the core of their defense. I don't think you can undersell that. The defense was as successful as it was because teams couldnt run on them. I'd feed that strength, not take away from it.
You are living in Lala land, completely unrealistic.
I think offering JPP a deal similar to Vernon's isn't realistic. JPP does not carry the FA stature that Vernon carried last year. Vernon has NO injury history and was 2 years younger.
I don't think the Giants offer JPP that kind of a contract. And I wouldn't blame them if they didn't. I'd offer 35 guaranteed or so...
He has 1 back issue and 1 groin issue and one brain lapse issue.
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I tend to agree. He got hurt at a bad time this year, but players across the league have sports hernia surgeries, they are incredibly common and they are healed from 100% almost every time. The problem this time was when it happened, we needed him for Green Bay.
I think DRC would have; and that area is where I would spend some cash. What good is having great players like Collins and Jenkins when the 3rd or 4th CB can be picked on?
Go get Logan Ryan.
Use that money for whats more important right now..
I find the Patriots comparison "what they would do with some JAG Olinesmen" to be very, very silly:
Pats are a powerhouse of player development and offensive systems and have Sir Bill and Brady and gang meshing at all world levels. Its flat out silly to assume that we use said 'free agency chits' that effectively on O.
On the other hand, we have a proven D coordinator, and a nearly great D, which carried the team last season. i.e a worthy place to invest.
Strategy 101, strongly reinforce the parts that are moving forward, i.e. the Patton thing, or Liddel Hart, The Indirect Approach.
Arguably our best defensive player besides Collins. Maybe even more valuable than Collins because of his position. His sack numbers do not show what a beast he is. He needs to be signed unless he wants some crazy contract. Our defensive core needs to be kept together. A lot of talent. Collins emerged as a beast. He was an impact player all year. But JPP has been an impact player for years now, and shows no signs of slowing down. Pass rush.
The Giants were always going to create cap room...
...by cutting the guys that didn't earn their keep. Whether it will be spent on JPP or not is problematical. What matters is the roster improvement those salary dollars represent.
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
RE: RE: RE: They're going to pay the man at their price
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
but he's only managed one full season out of the last 4. prior to that, he did seem to be an iron man in making it into uniform.
Not all of his games played were games played at full health.
I'm not a manager, but seems to me 4 'full' seasons (some of them with that ever present back injury) and 3 partial seasons might give one cause for thought when doling out big bucks.
to be fair, one half season was lost to off the field fireworks (less than full) judgment.
I would love to bring him back but he does have injury/health issues, along with a past of less than stellar conditioning issues. You can't just blindly look past that when deciding whether or not to allocate a HUGE chunk of the cap to him. and you can't blindly excuse a bad back which may, or may not, have been fixed.
I say "hurray". Giants aren't budging off their value chart. However, the last time around JPP didn't agree with that value chart. Rumors had it that he might have been ready to cave when the fireworks did that in.
Is he going to accept the Giants value? Has he learned to accept a good deal when it's on the table? or will he hold out for a better offer?
As JonC alluded to, what is likely to be offered by various teams is already known (keep it under your hat, the league is still pretending that tampering doesn't happen). JPP/agent knows, as do the Giants.
Giants will give him a fair offer. they're likely to exceed what they really want to fairly pay. But they're not going to outbid teams who are willing to go crazy on an offer.
Quote:
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
Quote:
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
Year 1 salary: 8M(guaranteed)
Year 2 salary: 12M(guaranteed)
Year 3 salary: 15M(guaranteed)
Year 4 salary: 15M
Year 5 salary: 15M
Cap hits:
1. 12M
2. 16M
3. 19M
4. 19M
5. 19M
If he's unhealthy you can cut him after year 3 and save 7 million in cap space the following year.
My math was off, you save 11 million after year 3 in this scenario.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
Quote:
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
It will start here that they are going to try to get him locked up before FA.
If negotiations hit a stalemate, the offer will leak making NYG's offer look fair.
From there we'll see the franchise tag as leaving them no choice.
The Giants aren't letting their pass rusher go.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
I meant an outside WR. Shepard will be in the slot. We need a bigger possession type WR on the outside IMO.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I think offering JPP a deal similar to Vernon's isn't realistic. JPP does not carry the FA stature that Vernon carried last year. Vernon has NO injury history and was 2 years younger.
I don't think the Giants offer JPP that kind of a contract. And I wouldn't blame them if they didn't. I'd offer 35 guaranteed or so...
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I tend to agree. He got hurt at a bad time this year, but players across the league have sports hernia surgeries, they are incredibly common and they are healed from 100% almost every time. The problem this time was when it happened, we needed him for Green Bay.
Go get Logan Ryan.
Pats are a powerhouse of player development and offensive systems and have Sir Bill and Brady and gang meshing at all world levels. Its flat out silly to assume that we use said 'free agency chits' that effectively on O.
On the other hand, we have a proven D coordinator, and a nearly great D, which carried the team last season. i.e a worthy place to invest.
Strategy 101, strongly reinforce the parts that are moving forward, i.e. the Patton thing, or Liddel Hart, The Indirect Approach.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
Quote:
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Quote:
In comment 13361443 JonC said:
Quote:
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
Quote:
In comment 13361449 Giantology said:
Quote:
In comment 13361443 JonC said:
Quote:
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
Gotcha
Not all of his games played were games played at full health.
I'm not a manager, but seems to me 4 'full' seasons (some of them with that ever present back injury) and 3 partial seasons might give one cause for thought when doling out big bucks.
to be fair, one half season was lost to off the field fireworks (less than full) judgment.
I would love to bring him back but he does have injury/health issues, along with a past of less than stellar conditioning issues. You can't just blindly look past that when deciding whether or not to allocate a HUGE chunk of the cap to him. and you can't blindly excuse a bad back which may, or may not, have been fixed.
Is he going to accept the Giants value? Has he learned to accept a good deal when it's on the table? or will he hold out for a better offer?
As JonC alluded to, what is likely to be offered by various teams is already known (keep it under your hat, the league is still pretending that tampering doesn't happen). JPP/agent knows, as do the Giants.
Giants will give him a fair offer. they're likely to exceed what they really want to fairly pay. But they're not going to outbid teams who are willing to go crazy on an offer.
Next I expect Hankins to be allowed to test the market, with strict instructions to bring back any offer,
"Strict instructions?" Wishful thinking to hope they can be placed upon a UFA, no?
Or what he said.