I'm always struck with one question ...>How would New England handle JPP.?
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
RE: That $12 million number is probably unrealistic....
I'm always struck with one question ...>How would New England handle JPP.?
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
You cant use what NE does as a model because the Giants don't have Tom Brady or a coach like BB.
RE: Maybe, maybe some offensive linemen instead....
I'm always struck with one question ...>How would New England handle JPP.?
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
You may be right in most cases, but defensive end is just such an important position, maybe 2nd biggest position on entire team. JPP is a really good, well rounded defensive end too. A lot of people think he has underperformed, but throughout his career he has been consistently good against the run and always a threat to get to QB despite sack numbers.
I just feel like he's too important to let leave, especially with our concerning lack of depth at the position. As good as our defense was last year, a lot of our sacks came from secondary, especially after JPP went down. I feel like he's a must to keep, but they know better than I do so I will support the decision regardless.
is going to be a FA that's worth JPP money? If we can't use that money to greatly upgrade the OL it might as well be used to keep our defense as good as possible.
This myth that the Pats don't play their good players is just that. They let some go, the others they pay.
RE: Maybe, maybe some offensive linemen instead....
I'm always struck with one question ...>How would New England handle JPP.?
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
When we have Belichick then we can handle free agents like NE.
RE: RE: That $12 million number is probably unrealistic....
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
He can want $300 million, it doesn't really matter.
Is insane!
The sports world is going to come crashing down one day...
It's unsustainable
Who's gonna keep paying these ticket prices as they go up up up...
Glad I dumped my psl when I did...
with 2 main FA's being JPP and Hankins. Realistically, I think you can get JPP's cap hit to be around $14M in year 1. That leaves us with $21M to work with. You can get the top guard on the market for $13M and still fill other holes and that's without having to restructure anyone.
But this seems like a soft first lob over the net.
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing they floated their number ($12m), knowing he'll scoff at it, and this is Step 1 in setting up the "we wanted JPP, but he wanted to leave" narrative.
And I don't mean it negatively in even the slightest. I'm all for them having a number and sticking to it.
... tag on JPP. Giamts can market or pass. JPP has trade value, so the Giants can get something in return. I think this is a no-brainer.
It's a no-brainer unless they can get JPP into a long-term deal they want. Personally, I think the Giants will have too much tied up in DEs. That's a lot of money that can go elsewhere.
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
We'll make a competitive offer to JPP because he's the best DE on the market, proven himself to the management and staff, respected in the lockerroom, plays a position of value in the system, and plays a position very hard to replace his 2-way skills.
The Giants could very well sign JPP and actually have less of the 2017 cap devoted to position this year.
Elis age. We need to be all in. Losing jpp a big step back
No we don't. The franchise doesn't die when Eli retires, but spending stupidly will have the same effect. I'm getting sick of hearing about the Eli window which can be 1 more year or 5, no one knows. We have to make smart football decisions regardless of who our QB is. I'm a huge JPP supporter but if they have a number allocated for him and he scoffs, they need to move on.
Is not worth the health risk at over 12 mil for three years JR has got to see and know sometimes you just end the marriage because it's over. I think JPP is a good all around DE but he is no longer a possible stud DE he is what he has shown himself to be a very good run defense guy but a guy who can't get to the passer consistently. If we are clearing up major funds to sign that's a really dumb move whatever we all expected from JPP has just never happened in the past four years why will tomorrow be any different.
Such an overated player. He is hurt not just every season.....but EVERY GAME! Remember, his "shoulder" was screwed up before the hernia. Dude is a medical risk from head to toe......shoulder, back, hernia, countless injuries. He is a good player and a decent dude but he is overpriced and these types of stupid signings always fuck us like Mr. Sehorns did. Here is one fact that can NOT be denied. Our defense played better when he was out. Is it Okwara? Who knows. But we WERE better.
this organization believes in,it is pass rushers.They drafted JPP when they already had Tuck and Osi.I don't think they will let their best pass rusher walk.They will work out a fair deal with him.
I think they'll work out a deal, but I'm betting he gets
is tiresome as well. We get it, their MO with pending FA's is a great blueprint for NFL success....and they also have Brady/BB.
I agree with the philosophy behind it but to replicate isn't easily done and has a massive amount of risk, risk that's masked by having an all time great QB and coach.
This isn't even directed at the JPP situation which I am dead in the middle on. I see value in keeping him and letting him go but there's 31 other teams jockeying for FA's, more than a few with way more cap than us and replacing him won't be easy.
Letting him walk has a great deal of downside that can potentially be mitigated if he does in fact decline in play and/or health.
is tiresome as well. We get it, their MO with pending FA's is a great blueprint for NFL success....and they also have Brady/BB.
I agree with the philosophy behind it but to replicate isn't easily done and has a massive amount of risk, risk that's masked by having an all time great QB and coach.
This isn't even directed at the JPP situation which I am dead in the middle on. I see value in keeping him and letting him go but there's 31 other teams jockeying for FA's, more than a few with way more cap than us and replacing him won't be easy.
Letting him walk has a great deal of downside that can potentially be mitigated if he does in fact decline in play and/or health.
Agreed. The Pats plan is about Brady and Belichick, little more. When you have possibly the two bests that have ever lived, you can get away with A LOT..I never, ever felt their way of doing things was the paradigm to end all paradigms..
with 2 main FA's being JPP and Hankins. Realistically, I think you can get JPP's cap hit to be around $14M in year 1.
The Giants could give him the 5 year $85M deal he wants and still have a cap hit in year one that is easily under $10M.
If I'm Reese/Abrams, I say to JPP, "we'll give you the $85M/5year deal, but instead of the front-loaded contract with $52.5M guaranteed that we gave Vernon, your injury history demands that it be a back-loaded contract with $20-$30M guaranteed."
The contract could structured so that he earns $42M-$48M over the first three years and has a cap hit of $6M in year one.
and his age will all provide leverage that should deliver him to us cheaper unless he's really willing to ride out a year at FT level and test the market next year.
I'm sure that his agent will advise him that taking that risk, at his age, isn't necessarily the right move.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Milton's suggested structure was non-guaranteed, so there'd be no risk. I don't think JPP would care for that, unless there were roster bonuses involved that would make up for it closer to the front than the back.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Neither of those things are true. The Giants could go the whole year with JPP counting $17M against the cap and still have the room to make the moves that they deem prudent. The pundits are calling this the worst year ever for free agency in terms of available talent and there are needy teams out there flush with cap room. With or without JPP onboard, the Giants weren't going to be big spenders in free agency this year.
Anyone who thinks the Giants will be in play for Andrew Whitworth if only they have the cap room is sadly mistaken.
I'm sure the Giants have a number in mind they will pay for him. He will end up taking a small hometown discount because it means he gets the money NOW. I don't think the Giants will let him walk and will use the Franchise Tag to keep him in the fold. The last thing JPP wants is the FT used on him and will sign a fair contract to avoid it.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
If he walks, it's right to Dallas and that would make my face implode.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Not sure they'd have to cut many guys, but they'll be searching the scrap heap for CBs. Using OverTheCap's 'Calculator', I was able to get them ~$20M under the cap via the following ($20M should be enough for JPP+draft+in-season contigency):
1. Cut Romo (designate as June 1): $10.7M dead money ($9M dead in 2018), $14M cap savings
2. Restructure T Smith: Convert $9M of his base to a bonus - saves $7.2M
3. Restructure Frederick: Convert $13M of his base to a bonus - saves $10M
Other possible Dallas moves to create cap space:
1. Restructure Dez
2. Cut/Restructure Sean Lee
3. Cut/Extend Witten
4. Restructure Tyrone Crawford
5. Cut/Extend Doug Free
If they find a sucker to take Romo or decide not to make him a June 1 cut, then it becomes much harder as his $14M savings is reduced to only ~$6M.
And in the case of Smith/Frederick, they aren't really saving money, just push the cap allocations out further.
... tag on JPP. Giamts can market or pass. JPP has trade value, so the Giants can get something in return. I think this is a no-brainer.
But if they tag him that will take $17M away from the salary cap until they find a trading partner. That could limit what they do in the FA market or cause them to miss out on a player they really want.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
He could just take a good, long look at his hand to know the risks.
That's what the discount would be for the Giants, who would tag JPP and let him decide - risk that you escape the year unharmed, and that a year older and nearing 30 you still get top dollar, or take the discounted contract and get the peace of mind that you didn't maximize your income but that it's in your pocket and nothing - not a football injury or hobby related explosion - can separate you from your cash.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
I'm sure his agent is advising him against signing a franchise tag deal. Both JPP and his agent know that at his age and injury history this might be their last chance to score the big payday; and the risk grows each year that he doesn't get the big deal.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
You try and straight up negotiate an extension. If he wants too much you tag him and try to leverage better terms. If that doesn't work you try to trade him. If none of that works you deal with his holdout and eventually he'll report to get his service time.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
he's better of just LeBroning it and playing on 1 year Franchise Tag deals than accept $20-$30 million guaranteed. He's likely getting almost double that guaranteed.
Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
was the dead cap if cut when he's slated to make $27 million? I don't think there's any possible way this happens.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match. He and Hankins could both be gone, with JPP more likely.
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
By now word has probably reached the agent as to potential suitors and open market value. If NYG is thinking about starting at $12M, it probably won't need to go a great deal higher.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
have Chandler Jones at this point. He'll probably be a tad cheaper and is younger. I agree with the non exclusive tag. That is how we should play it with JPP if he won't take $12-13 million.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
if they're going to pass on JPP (sounds unlikely), I'd target either Short (likely to be tagged) or Campbell. Campbell will likely end up a little cheaper then JPP and gives them a penetrating DT next to Snacks, not too mention a literal giant in the middle.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
They players are a tight knit group, he's had success with this defense and continuity is important to taking the next step. I do not see them letting JPP walk and then spending big money on another DE in FA. Personally, I don't see them letting JPP walk at all, but if it did come to that, I can see them signing a lower priced vet like they did a few years ago with Ayers.
Nick Perry fan depending on the money too. I am just as unsure with JPP as I am with Jones but if he's gonna cost $5 million less per year I'd rather spread the wealth. We need a good #2 WR and obvious help on the OL. If it means getting a top OL and Jones or Perry or just JPP and a lower level OL sign me up for the let JPP walk camp.
but when you prioritize them, #3 WR isn't at the top of the list. It's certainly on the list. My point being, its not something we need to allocate huge money towards. $5-6M per should get you a suitable player if they go the FA route, IMO.
It's a good idea to try to bring as much of it back as possible. I understand that JPP is an injury risk, and there's always the chance his work ethic regresses. I'd rather take that risk than try to find his replacement though.
no one in their right mind expected Cruz to return at anything near his scheduled contract. Similar for Jennings.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
is injury prone and should not be signed to anything but a performance incentive package. He is hurt all the time for one thing after the other. He also was prone to not staying in shape when he had all the skills in the world to offer. These golden parachute contracts are not for everyone. Keep Hank at all costs. Lets not repeat the Linval Joseph mistake again, and end up with another Austin or Bromley to replace him.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
and does have issues with consistency in staying in shape.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Exactly, Hankins is simply not the right man for the job. Yes, it's nice to have two big run-stuffers for short yardage situations, but outside of that you'd ideally like a true 3-technique to complement Harrison. Maybe they'll find it in the draft. Maybe Bromley will suddenly become the guy they drafted him to be. Or maybe Odiggittygiggityzuwa will put on ten pounds and be the answer.
It was the core of their defense. I don't think you can undersell that. The defense was as successful as it was because teams couldnt run on them. I'd feed that strength, not take away from it.
You are living in Lala land, completely unrealistic.
I think offering JPP a deal similar to Vernon's isn't realistic. JPP does not carry the FA stature that Vernon carried last year. Vernon has NO injury history and was 2 years younger.
I don't think the Giants offer JPP that kind of a contract. And I wouldn't blame them if they didn't. I'd offer 35 guaranteed or so...
He has 1 back issue and 1 groin issue and one brain lapse issue.
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I tend to agree. He got hurt at a bad time this year, but players across the league have sports hernia surgeries, they are incredibly common and they are healed from 100% almost every time. The problem this time was when it happened, we needed him for Green Bay.
I think DRC would have; and that area is where I would spend some cash. What good is having great players like Collins and Jenkins when the 3rd or 4th CB can be picked on?
Go get Logan Ryan.
Use that money for whats more important right now..
I find the Patriots comparison "what they would do with some JAG Olinesmen" to be very, very silly:
Pats are a powerhouse of player development and offensive systems and have Sir Bill and Brady and gang meshing at all world levels. Its flat out silly to assume that we use said 'free agency chits' that effectively on O.
On the other hand, we have a proven D coordinator, and a nearly great D, which carried the team last season. i.e a worthy place to invest.
Strategy 101, strongly reinforce the parts that are moving forward, i.e. the Patton thing, or Liddel Hart, The Indirect Approach.
Arguably our best defensive player besides Collins. Maybe even more valuable than Collins because of his position. His sack numbers do not show what a beast he is. He needs to be signed unless he wants some crazy contract. Our defensive core needs to be kept together. A lot of talent. Collins emerged as a beast. He was an impact player all year. But JPP has been an impact player for years now, and shows no signs of slowing down. Pass rush.
The Giants were always going to create cap room...
...by cutting the guys that didn't earn their keep. Whether it will be spent on JPP or not is problematical. What matters is the roster improvement those salary dollars represent.
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
RE: RE: RE: They're going to pay the man at their price
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
but he's only managed one full season out of the last 4. prior to that, he did seem to be an iron man in making it into uniform.
Not all of his games played were games played at full health.
I'm not a manager, but seems to me 4 'full' seasons (some of them with that ever present back injury) and 3 partial seasons might give one cause for thought when doling out big bucks.
to be fair, one half season was lost to off the field fireworks (less than full) judgment.
I would love to bring him back but he does have injury/health issues, along with a past of less than stellar conditioning issues. You can't just blindly look past that when deciding whether or not to allocate a HUGE chunk of the cap to him. and you can't blindly excuse a bad back which may, or may not, have been fixed.
I say "hurray". Giants aren't budging off their value chart. However, the last time around JPP didn't agree with that value chart. Rumors had it that he might have been ready to cave when the fireworks did that in.
Is he going to accept the Giants value? Has he learned to accept a good deal when it's on the table? or will he hold out for a better offer?
As JonC alluded to, what is likely to be offered by various teams is already known (keep it under your hat, the league is still pretending that tampering doesn't happen). JPP/agent knows, as do the Giants.
Giants will give him a fair offer. they're likely to exceed what they really want to fairly pay. But they're not going to outbid teams who are willing to go crazy on an offer.
To avoid getting tagged and get a multiyear deal?
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
Reb it really depends on guarantee $$. Maybe 5 yrs $60 mill with a $35 or $40 mill guarantee...
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
You cant use what NE does as a model because the Giants don't have Tom Brady or a coach like BB.
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
You may be right in most cases, but defensive end is just such an important position, maybe 2nd biggest position on entire team. JPP is a really good, well rounded defensive end too. A lot of people think he has underperformed, but throughout his career he has been consistently good against the run and always a threat to get to QB despite sack numbers.
I just feel like he's too important to let leave, especially with our concerning lack of depth at the position. As good as our defense was last year, a lot of our sacks came from secondary, especially after JPP went down. I feel like he's a must to keep, but they know better than I do so I will support the decision regardless.
This myth that the Pats don't play their good players is just that. They let some go, the others they pay.
"Don't think twice, it's allright" and he's gone on the next plane. Three competent offensive linemen sighed with the same money. And one gets hurt and you're still allright.
When we have Belichick then we can handle free agents like NE.
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I think the number is going to come in closer to the 14-17 million range. I'm guessing the Giants opening bid will be 12-13 million.
Reb it really depends on guarantee $$. Maybe 5 yrs $60 mill with a $35 or $40 mill guarantee...
Very true
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
Are you The Manny?
Don't pay for past production, and don't overcommit to your own guys. Maintain financial flexibility and a pipeline of cheap, ascending talent.
We're going to pay our defensive ends a combined ~$30 million a year and still have questions about generating a conventional pass rush.
We don't play the Browns and Bears every week.
He failed to get the big money, last year before he got hurt. That frustration is pent-up, it's going to get very ugly (especially if they tag him).
In the mean-time there's massive hole in the O-line (where they may be forced to bring in a very expensive left tackle [via trade for a high draft choice]). Not to mention the hole created by Victor Cruz' departure (and the lack of a tight end who can play at a high level)
I's the offense' turn to get fixed, it won't be cheap.
He can want $300 million, it doesn't really matter.
The sports world is going to come crashing down one day...
It's unsustainable
Who's gonna keep paying these ticket prices as they go up up up...
Glad I dumped my psl when I did...
Don't pay for past production, and don't overcommit to your own guys. Maintain financial flexibility and a pipeline of cheap, ascending talent.
We're going to pay our defensive ends a combined ~$30 million a year and still have questions about generating a conventional pass rush.
We don't play the Browns and Bears every week.
If it were up to you, youd be paying every player on the team the league minimum
Pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing they floated their number ($12m), knowing he'll scoff at it, and this is Step 1 in setting up the "we wanted JPP, but he wanted to leave" narrative.
And I don't mean it negatively in even the slightest. I'm all for them having a number and sticking to it.
I could be dead wrong.
Next I expect Hankins to be allowed to test the market, with strict instructions to bring back any offer, a la Bradshaw, Boss and Cofield.
It's a no-brainer unless they can get JPP into a long-term deal they want. Personally, I think the Giants will have too much tied up in DEs. That's a lot of money that can go elsewhere.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
The Giants could very well sign JPP and actually have less of the 2017 cap devoted to position this year.
No we don't. The franchise doesn't die when Eli retires, but spending stupidly will have the same effect. I'm getting sick of hearing about the Eli window which can be 1 more year or 5, no one knows. We have to make smart football decisions regardless of who our QB is. I'm a huge JPP supporter but if they have a number allocated for him and he scoffs, they need to move on.
You can count on one hand the prohibitive contracts Reese has handed out in a decade as a GM.
No one is mortgaging anything.
Next I expect Hankins to be allowed to test the market, with strict instructions to bring back any offer, a la Bradshaw, Boss and Cofield.
Do you also still expect Anthony Davis to sign??
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Offseason going perfectly so far.
Next I expect Hankins to be allowed to test the market, with strict instructions to bring back any offer, a la Bradshaw, Boss and Cofield.
Do you also still expect Anthony Davis to sign??
Baalke faxing in the finishing touches as we speak.
Should still leave room for Hankins also though. Hope we have enough for Pugh.
It's area junk. You're wasting your breath.
Have you seen Dallas' cap situation?
On top of the fact that only 1 player in their secondary is under contract for next year...
Is that really what we're trying to accomplish.
If you recall last time, when they tagged him, he wanted a 6 year deal.
Don't pay for past production, and don't overcommit to your own guys. Maintain financial flexibility and a pipeline of cheap, ascending talent.
We're going to pay our defensive ends a combined ~$30 million a year and still have questions about generating a conventional pass rush.
We don't play the Browns and Bears every week.
Go Big or Go Terps!
I agree with the philosophy behind it but to replicate isn't easily done and has a massive amount of risk, risk that's masked by having an all time great QB and coach.
This isn't even directed at the JPP situation which I am dead in the middle on. I see value in keeping him and letting him go but there's 31 other teams jockeying for FA's, more than a few with way more cap than us and replacing him won't be easy.
Letting him walk has a great deal of downside that can potentially be mitigated if he does in fact decline in play and/or health.
I agree with the philosophy behind it but to replicate isn't easily done and has a massive amount of risk, risk that's masked by having an all time great QB and coach.
This isn't even directed at the JPP situation which I am dead in the middle on. I see value in keeping him and letting him go but there's 31 other teams jockeying for FA's, more than a few with way more cap than us and replacing him won't be easy.
Letting him walk has a great deal of downside that can potentially be mitigated if he does in fact decline in play and/or health.
Agreed. The Pats plan is about Brady and Belichick, little more. When you have possibly the two bests that have ever lived, you can get away with A LOT..I never, ever felt their way of doing things was the paradigm to end all paradigms..
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
If I'm Reese/Abrams, I say to JPP, "we'll give you the $85M/5year deal, but instead of the front-loaded contract with $52.5M guaranteed that we gave Vernon, your injury history demands that it be a back-loaded contract with $20-$30M guaranteed."
The contract could structured so that he earns $42M-$48M over the first three years and has a cap hit of $6M in year one.
Honestly, there isn't a lot out there to spend 16 on that will help them as much as JPP. He is a rare commodity.
I'm sure that his agent will advise him that taking that risk, at his age, isn't necessarily the right move.
The Giants are really in very good cap shape going forward.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Fact is we kind of lucked out with the cap this year as there aren't many big time FA O-Linemen out there that we need to make room for. If we are keeping JPP i'd rather it be front loaded so we sign better players in future years.
I'd rather keep the O-Line as is and dumpster dive than throw JPP money at 2 middling O-Lineman.
Milton's suggested structure was non-guaranteed, so there'd be no risk. I don't think JPP would care for that, unless there were roster bonuses involved that would make up for it closer to the front than the back.
Anyone who thinks the Giants will be in play for Andrew Whitworth if only they have the cap room is sadly mistaken.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
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If he walks, it's right to Dallas and that would make my face implode.
Fine, then they'll have to cut half their team to make it work or severely limit their depth moving forward
Not sure they'd have to cut many guys, but they'll be searching the scrap heap for CBs. Using OverTheCap's 'Calculator', I was able to get them ~$20M under the cap via the following ($20M should be enough for JPP+draft+in-season contigency):
1. Cut Romo (designate as June 1): $10.7M dead money ($9M dead in 2018), $14M cap savings
2. Restructure T Smith: Convert $9M of his base to a bonus - saves $7.2M
3. Restructure Frederick: Convert $13M of his base to a bonus - saves $10M
Other possible Dallas moves to create cap space:
1. Restructure Dez
2. Cut/Restructure Sean Lee
3. Cut/Extend Witten
4. Restructure Tyrone Crawford
5. Cut/Extend Doug Free
If they find a sucker to take Romo or decide not to make him a June 1 cut, then it becomes much harder as his $14M savings is reduced to only ~$6M.
And in the case of Smith/Frederick, they aren't really saving money, just push the cap allocations out further.
Year 1 salary: 8M(guaranteed)
Year 2 salary: 12M(guaranteed)
Year 3 salary: 15M(guaranteed)
Year 4 salary: 15M
Year 5 salary: 15M
Cap hits:
1. 12M
2. 16M
3. 19M
4. 19M
5. 19M
If he's unhealthy you can cut him after year 3 and save 7 million in cap space the following year.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
He could just take a good, long look at his hand to know the risks.
He'll be told to take a good, long look at what happened to Cruz, and ask whether it's worth the risk.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
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I read it wrong. Yeah, there's no way he'd take that, what's the point? He's better off playing on the tag than accepting a non guaranteed contract where he makes the least in year 1.
I said $20-$30M guaranteed. Which is still greater than the $17M guaranteed by a franchise tag.
Here's an example of a simple contract along the lines of what I'm saying...
5 years $85M total.
$25M signing bonus.
Salaries of $1M, $6M, $13M, $18M, $22M in years 1-5 respectively.
Cap hits of $6M, $11M, $18M, $23M, $27M respectively.
So he basically gets $26M guaranteed and $45M over the first three years (average compensation $15M/year). His average compensation over the first two years is $16M.
Heavily backloaded deals like this were common a decade ago. Agents/players have wizened up recently and avoid these deals with heavily backloaded years that simply inflate the 'total' contract. The deal you propose is essentially a 3 year/$45M deal. Highly doubt he'd agree to something like that.
Take $9M off the final 2 years and spread it over the first 3 seasons and you've likely got a deal. With a better structure (i.e. more frontloaded/guaranteed), I think you can get JPP for 5 yrs/$75M.
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Giants will have to come up with a blow away offer to get him to skip FA.
No they don't, they can offer him the franchise tag and force him to skip FA. Apply the tag, make your other moves, let other teams make other moves, hear out any trade offers, let JPP stew... He will fold and sign our multi year deal that's sitting on the table.. And if you decide you want to move on, you pull the tag. But if I'm NY, I tag him and I don't let him sign anywhere but here unless we get a first rounder out of it.
If you use the tag, that's money you can't use for other FAs. Not sure the Giants want to do that. It is an option, but not clear cut.
Year 1 salary: 8M(guaranteed)
Year 2 salary: 12M(guaranteed)
Year 3 salary: 15M(guaranteed)
Year 4 salary: 15M
Year 5 salary: 15M
Cap hits:
1. 12M
2. 16M
3. 19M
4. 19M
5. 19M
If he's unhealthy you can cut him after year 3 and save 7 million in cap space the following year.
My math was off, you save 11 million after year 3 in this scenario.
He'd never make it to the $27M. He'd almost certainly be a cap casualty after year 3 and would then have a $10M dead money charge. If he did make it through 4 seasons, he'd have a $5M dead cap charge in place of that $27M.
As long as he's tagged that's fine. I'll take the 2 first round picks!
Giants are hoping he never hits the market and if he does he will get tagged.
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also think that whether he should or shouldn't be resigned, there's a real chance another team makes him a blow away offer that even everyone here agrees we can't or shouldn't match.
But there is no chance another team makes him a blow away offer if he is tagged. Ergo, he will be tagged.
Another team can make him a 'blow away offer' and then offer the Giants compensation for his FT rights. For example, the Browns could give their 2nd #1 pick this year in exchange for the Giants not matching a deal for JPP and then give JPP a deal comparable to Vernon's without backloaded gimmicks.
It will start here that they are going to try to get him locked up before FA.
If negotiations hit a stalemate, the offer will leak making NYG's offer look fair.
From there we'll see the franchise tag as leaving them no choice.
The Giants aren't letting their pass rusher go.
Wouldn't touch Jones with a 10 foot pole. The guy has dog written all over him when he gets paid. He also comes with the increased risk of banned substance suspension.
Then add a DE in the first 3 rounds to battle Okwara and Owa.
I meant an outside WR. Shepard will be in the slot. We need a bigger possession type WR on the outside IMO.
I don't doubt that they want to make a legitimate run at JPP. But cutting Cruz and Jennings had very little to do with it.
that said, IF you think it imperative to keep him, you do so with a long term contract. This is one of the rare times I think planning to incur dead money in two or three years is a good idea. You need 2 pass rushers, and JPP is good against the run, as well. Anything resembling quality is going to cost you big time in FA, or you have to draft one. Spending the money on a tag for one year is stupid unless you think that it gives you leverage for squeezing a long term deal out of him. Personally, if I were him, I'd take the tag, stay away from fireworks, and laugh all the way to the bank, knowing there's a larger payday coming next year on TOP of the big tag payday.
the only question is whether you think he is imperative to bring back. There's no one on the team even close to being able to replace him. anyone in FA is going to be expensive. you are NOT replacing him in FA cheaper unless you get lucky (there is never a under the radar candidate. there are candidates with huge risk factors who might come cheaper, and you get lucky the gamble paid off). You might find a good enough candidate, but he is not going to equal JPP. that leaves the draft.
IMO, JPP has had us by the short hairs for a few years, and the Giants have been unable to develop a suitable replacement, leaving us in this same predicament year after year. either give him a long term contract, or let him go and deal with his absence.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Again, JPP is a great 2-way 4-3 DE, they don't grow on trees. You are greatly exaggerating his injuries, and he did a terrific job getting into shape after that horrific injury. Your assertion that he doesn't stay in shape is downright absurd.
Both are legitimate concerns.
He came back with a vengeance to prove his shape image. it is still a question whether he's committed to life for staying in shape. the injury bug stuck with him.
Hankins will be more easily replaced than JPP.
Hankins has played well, but run stuffers are easier to find at DT. It could be argued that what they need is a DT that can provide more of an inside pass rush to pair with Harrison.
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I think offering JPP a deal similar to Vernon's isn't realistic. JPP does not carry the FA stature that Vernon carried last year. Vernon has NO injury history and was 2 years younger.
I don't think the Giants offer JPP that kind of a contract. And I wouldn't blame them if they didn't. I'd offer 35 guaranteed or so...
Guy plays every fuckin snap and you guys think he is a china doll
I tend to agree. He got hurt at a bad time this year, but players across the league have sports hernia surgeries, they are incredibly common and they are healed from 100% almost every time. The problem this time was when it happened, we needed him for Green Bay.
Go get Logan Ryan.
Pats are a powerhouse of player development and offensive systems and have Sir Bill and Brady and gang meshing at all world levels. Its flat out silly to assume that we use said 'free agency chits' that effectively on O.
On the other hand, we have a proven D coordinator, and a nearly great D, which carried the team last season. i.e a worthy place to invest.
Strategy 101, strongly reinforce the parts that are moving forward, i.e. the Patton thing, or Liddel Hart, The Indirect Approach.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
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and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
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In comment 13361443 JonC said:
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and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
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In comment 13361449 Giantology said:
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In comment 13361443 JonC said:
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and from what I'm hearing the value is close to what it was two years ago.
Sounds like fantastic news to me.
To be clear, Jon is not saying JPP will accept, just that they have a number in mind and save for SOME compromise perhaps, they will stick to that number. Correct Jon?
Pretty sure you're right, I'm just relieved to hear that we're not looking to make a 16-18 mil offer.
Gotcha
Not all of his games played were games played at full health.
I'm not a manager, but seems to me 4 'full' seasons (some of them with that ever present back injury) and 3 partial seasons might give one cause for thought when doling out big bucks.
to be fair, one half season was lost to off the field fireworks (less than full) judgment.
I would love to bring him back but he does have injury/health issues, along with a past of less than stellar conditioning issues. You can't just blindly look past that when deciding whether or not to allocate a HUGE chunk of the cap to him. and you can't blindly excuse a bad back which may, or may not, have been fixed.
Is he going to accept the Giants value? Has he learned to accept a good deal when it's on the table? or will he hold out for a better offer?
As JonC alluded to, what is likely to be offered by various teams is already known (keep it under your hat, the league is still pretending that tampering doesn't happen). JPP/agent knows, as do the Giants.
Giants will give him a fair offer. they're likely to exceed what they really want to fairly pay. But they're not going to outbid teams who are willing to go crazy on an offer.
Next I expect Hankins to be allowed to test the market, with strict instructions to bring back any offer,
"Strict instructions?" Wishful thinking to hope they can be placed upon a UFA, no?
Or what he said.