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Cincy Jungle's latest opinions on Whitworth and Zeitler

Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 9:30 am
Quote:


Andrew Whitworth

The Bengalsí mainstay at left tackle for years, the team would not only be losing one of its most productive players, but a leader and face of the franchise if Whitworth were to leave the team. I personally find Big Whit to be the most unlikely player to move elsewhere, largely because of his tenure, high level of play, and the Bengalsí need for his talents.

I also have a hard time picturing that at 35-years-old, he would want to pack up and move his family. But letís say the Bengals get stingy and try to low ball the All-Pro offensive tackle and he has no choice but to join another franchise. Then what?




Quote:


Kevin Zeitler

While itís tough to understand why the team would let its best young offensive lineman walk in free agency, reports are starting to indicate thatís exactly what weíre going to see happen. Clint Boling will continue to be a solid contributor at left guard, but thereís no heir apparent for Kevin on the right side.

The Bengals likely donít have confidence in 2016 draft pick Christian Westerman to come in as a starter, since he was inactive for 15 games last season and didnít play in the one game for which he was active. Even when the Bengals needed a reserve guard in 2016, the team opted for backup center T.J. Johnson to take over in Week 17 against the Ravens.



You can read what Cincy's options are should they leave..Also discuss the possibility of DB Dre Kirkpatrick, 27, leaving
Link - ( New Window )
I think Zeitler  
Keith : 2/14/2017 9:32 am : link
will be our big FA splash this year. I'd like to sign a vet tackle to compete with flowers at LT.
Though I go onto the site regularly to get the latest opinions,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 9:43 am : link
a shout out to Dawg for having the site listed..
What's interesting to me is how I went from,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 10:00 am : link
who wants a 35 year-old to yeah, he'd be a great signing for a few years to, 'really, Cincy wants him back?'
Even if Whitworth stays put ..  
Beer Man : 2/14/2017 10:16 am : link
There may be others options as some LTs become cap casualties; plus there is still the guy in Detroit.
There is a lot of value in signing a vew like Whitworth in FA.  
Keith : 2/14/2017 10:17 am : link
First off, he's not going to break the bank. Secondly, you know what you are getting. He's only missed 2 games in the past 8 seasons. You can get 2-3 good seasons from him. I'll take em both!
RE: There is a lot of value in signing a vew like Whitworth in FA.  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 10:26 am : link
In comment 13360514 Keith said:
Quote:
First off, he's not going to break the bank. Secondly, you know what you are getting. He's only missed 2 games in the past 8 seasons. You can get 2-3 good seasons from him. I'll take em both!


Well, he made 9 mil last year. Will Cincy try to cut that down or at least match it? Regardless, what should we spend?
RE: Even if Whitworth stays put ..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 10:27 am : link
In comment 13360512 Beer Man said:
Quote:
There may be others options as some LTs become cap casualties; plus there is still the guy in Detroit.


True, but I'm thinking LT cap casualties would be damaged goods, no?
Realistically,  
Keith : 2/14/2017 10:29 am : link
you are probably looking at 7-8 million, but the benefit is the years. He won't require a 5-6 year deal so that limits the risk a bit.

To get Zeitler, you are going to have a situation like last year with Jenkins and Vernon. You are probably going to have to make him the highest paid G in football.

Whitworth, will need good money for 2-3 years and I think both are worth it considering what we need and what they are as players.

The Giants are on the precipice of contention and fixing the OL is the way to go. BAU for defense, fix the OL, fill in some holes elsewhere and lets go to battle.
Whitworth is 35  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/14/2017 10:51 am : link
why would we want to spend big bucks on someone that old? I hope we would come at a lower cost.

I would rather trade for Joe Thomas who is younger.
RE: Whitworth is 35  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13360560 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
why would we want to spend big bucks on someone that old? I hope we would come at a lower cost.

I would rather trade for Joe Thomas who is younger.


Me too. As to AW, he is STILL considered one of the very best OLTs in the entire league. Sure, he could drop off a cliff at any time, but for 2 more years, what are the odds, given his top level production? 2-3 years would be an ENORMOUS help to Eli, imv
The reason you spend  
Keith : 2/14/2017 11:08 am : link
money on an older vet like that:

1. Big money? Depends on your definition of big money. The top tier LT's make about 12-13 million per. Looking at all the numbers, I think you can get Whitworth for 6-7 per for about 3 years with an out after 2 with limited dead cap money.

2. He's as durable as there is. Yes hes 35, but he's missed 2 games in the last 8 seasons and they were in the same year.

3. Getting a veteran that's been there, done that on this line with our young players could be very helpful.

4. You won't get as much FA competition for him, which will help keep the money down.

5. What exactly are you trading for Thomas(who makes about 11-12 per)?
Not every signing has to be  
Keith : 2/14/2017 11:10 am : link
a young up and coming player that get big money. You fill some holes with solid vets too. We've done it in the past so its not completely out of character.
Pugh provides great flexibilty  
area junc : 2/14/2017 11:25 am : link
His Diehl-like ability to switch between T and G allows us flexibility. He provides an acceptable floor at LT in this offense.

Flowers should be inside playing the crucial role of opening holes for our inside run game. (And standing up to some of these powerful DTs that have pushed us around at times.) Go back to the Playoff game and watch our interior try to *budge* the Pack DL.

We need great blockers. Pugh to LT (then u dont have to spend on a LT) which allows you to sign a killer G instead of an OK T. Zeitler, T.J. Lang, Leary, Warford, even Warmack AND its supposedly a strong G class in the draft.

And If a stud LT becomes available in the draft, (or by trade Thomas or Staley) by all means consider it.
RE: Not every signing has to be  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/14/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13360592 Keith said:
Quote:
a young up and coming player that get big money. You fill some holes with solid vets too. We've done it in the past so its not completely out of character.


At 35, how much longer do you expect him to play. Many on here complain that trading for Joe Thomas would be crazy since he is 32 and could break down.

I tend to agree he should just stay at Cincy at his age. Probably cheaper all around living and wouldn't have to move his family. Only reason he would have to leave is to try to win a Super Bowl. He's more of a injury risk at 35 then Thomas at 32 even if he hasn't had an injury.
The reason there is more risk with a 32 year old Thomas  
Keith : 2/14/2017 11:28 am : link
is cost. He will cost much more in salary and will cost a 1st rounder+ to get.

Honestly, I'd be ok giving Whitworth a 3 year deal which we can get out of with a limited dead cap hit after 2.
By the way  
Keith : 2/14/2017 11:33 am : link
I wouldn't be opposed to trading for Thomas if that was a realistic option. I wouldn't go higher than a 2nd rounder, but I'm not opposed to the idea. Dudes a stud.
RE: The reason there is more risk with a 32 year old Thomas  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/14/2017 11:34 am : link
In comment 13360627 Keith said:
Quote:
is cost. He will cost much more in salary and will cost a 1st rounder+ to get.

Honestly, I'd be ok giving Whitworth a 3 year deal which we can get out of with a limited dead cap hit after 2.


He won't cost a 1st rounder. A 2nd could get it done and that would be well worth it. Then you front load the deal like they did the DRC's contract, and you can cut bait a few years down the line if needed.
RE: By the way  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13360639 Keith said:
Quote:
I wouldn't be opposed to trading for Thomas if that was a realistic option. I wouldn't go higher than a 2nd rounder, but I'm not opposed to the idea. Dudes a stud.


Well slade said there is an upcoming trade..Lol
You don't need to frontload Thomas,  
Keith : 2/14/2017 11:41 am : link
he's already signed for a few more seasons. Can you show me any proof where a 2nd rounder should get it done. I think you are off base on that one.
FA  
stretch234 : 2/14/2017 12:02 pm : link
If I am giving large money to a G it will be Pugh over Zeitler, they are the same player except Pugh's ability to play elsewhere on the OL.

Whitworth is not going to settle for 7M per year. He just played for 9M and was effective. He is better at 35 than 5-6 LT making more than him now. I think he can easily get 2-20
seams they prefer pugh at G  
msh : 2/14/2017 1:36 pm : link
i was advocating moving pugh to OT and trying one of the younger OL guys at OG you need your best OL guys on the roster playing centre and tackle its far easier to cover for a substandard guard if the guys either side of him are better but they continued with that horrible right side of the line.

if they do fix the OL in free agency that would free up the draft to add the bigger outside WR they are crying out for and the legitimate threat at TE and this would also negate a trade up for the likes of ramczyc and leaves a mid round pick to spend on some depth at CB and DL which they lose on a trade up for the OL,a veteran should also be ready to play week 1 year 1 which is very unlikely from a draft pick at OL

cruz's departure means they plan on replacing him in the slot with shepard and have admitted that cruz and shepard out on the field together didnt work they need that taller heavier WR to open up the secondry a little for beckham they also need the legit TE to open up the middle and drag the second safety away from blanketing the run or deep ball to beckham depending on the down and distance,how many 3rd and shorts broke down because of the lack of threat at TE?

jennings departure means they need the 3rd RB a power runner brandon jacobs size type guy (thou someone a little more brusing more often that jacobs used to be) they need to resign jpp,leon hall and hankins or they will also need a DE,FS and DT as well i would prefer they fix the OL in free agency to allow them a free reign to improve the team in the draft slanted towards the WR and TE they badly need early
We should pay Whitworth to come in here for a couple of seasons  
Torrag : 2/15/2017 12:31 am : link
Gives us an immediate upgrade at LT while allowing a chance for Flowers to develop at a less exposed position. It's really a no brainer, if he's open to a change of scenery. If he isn't we move on to Plan B, then C...etc.

Hopefully we don't end up stuck with Plan F, which is Flowers back starting at LT.
if they can fix RT and RG  
msh : 2/15/2017 9:37 am : link
that would allow them to move the TE over to flowers side and give him some help but the last few years the gapping hole on the right side has meant it was impossible to give any help to flowers

flowers is a matter of coaching and learning he has the size and feet to play LT he needs to be more focused and trust his technique and improve it he is young enough to turn things around and be the LT we need him to be

i would prefer they move him over to RT bring in a vet LT and season him for a couple of years before he takes on the LT fulltime zietler or reiff could be a good way for them to do that
As i have stated, I give Flowers another year under Solari  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 10:22 am : link
to finally get the techniques down pat, before opining my disenchantment..If his techniques are a mess, what makes people think he won't need to hone them at ORT?
as intruiging as zeitler sounds  
idiotsavant : 2/15/2017 10:30 am : link
I would still prioritize signing JPP and Hank.

If you can do that and also sign Zeit, wow.
RE: as intruiging as zeitler sounds  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13361601 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
I would still prioritize signing JPP and Hank.

If you can do that and also sign Zeit, wow.


If we use the tag on JPP (Please no), we're pretty much screwed if we want to make a reasonable FA dent for the O, imo..In fact, are we not screwed if we tag him him in hopes of him working out a long term deal and he strings us along in terms of not signing it or working something out, long after the desired FAs have been inked by other teams?
RE: As i have stated, I give Flowers another year under Solari  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/15/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13361594 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
to finally get the techniques down pat, before opining my disenchantment..If his techniques are a mess, what makes people think he won't need to hone them at ORT?


It could be his more natural position. If a switch hitter stinks hitting one way, why wouldn't you just tell him to bat the opposite and stay that way?
Hopefully, it's what Joey opined a week or two ago  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 11:22 am : link
re left-handed vs Right..
BB56, I don't know why you say that.  
Keith : 2/15/2017 11:24 am : link
If we tag JPP, we will still have 18 million to work with. You can get Zietler for a cap hit of 12 million which still leaves us with some money to fill other holes and that's without restructuring anyone to create some space or releasing a guy like Thomas or even Vereen. If we are able to clear up a few more dollars, we may be able to sign Hankins if his price is reasonable. That being said, I don't think Hankins is a top priority.
RE: BB56, I don't know why you say that.  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13361681 Keith said:
Quote:
If we tag JPP, we will still have 18 million to work with. You can get Zietler for a cap hit of 12 million which still leaves us with some money to fill other holes and that's without restructuring anyone to create some space or releasing a guy like Thomas or even Vereen. If we are able to clear up a few more dollars, we may be able to sign Hankins if his price is reasonable. That being said, I don't think Hankins is a top priority.


You could be right, but I just don't see it..As to Hankins, i agree with those who believe he's very underrated..There's no guarantee that you can simply plug in another player alongside Snacks and accomplish what they did as a tandem..I would opine that they are arguably the best duo in the entire NFL..There's a reason why our DTs were as effective as they were forcing teams to pass more than they liked to..It wasn't JUST Snacks imv..

I don't believe the Giants will let him walk a d can be signed for about 7-8 mil per year despite what others are predicting it will take..They had no real choice in letting LinJo walk given how up against the cap we were at the time and knowing(thinking) that Cruz and Knicks needed to be re-signed
Knicks, lol..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 11:44 am : link
Nicks..
BB56, well we have two exceptional run stuffing DE's too  
Keith : 2/15/2017 11:55 am : link
that play 99% of the snaps. To me, Hankins wasn't a difference maker. He was solid, but he's also young so could get better. That being said, I believe DE is a much more important position to pay than the guy next to Snacks. Just my opinion. All depends on money, but I'm letting Hankins test the market and hope everyone goes by PFF rankings(which had him as one of the worst DT's in the NFL).

I think a great candidate to be "restructured/extended" would be Pugh. I think you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone and extend Pugh 5/6 years and save 4-5 million on the cap too. Went to overthecap.com and played with an extension for him and if we gave him a deal similar to Osemele got last year, we can get his cap number down a decent amount which may allow us to the sign Hankins.
If anyone can make it work, Abrams can.  
Big Blue '56 : 2/15/2017 12:19 pm : link
All I usually want to know is guaranteed money and years of amortization..The rest I leave up to you guys..😎
Thats why over the cap is great, you can use their calculator to  
Keith : 2/15/2017 12:30 pm : link
see how everything works. I looked at what the top young guard got in FA last year(Osemele-5/58 with 25 million guaranteed). You can give Pugh the same contract, but make the majority of the guaranteed a signing bonus instead of salary to lower the salary early in the deal.

Osemele's deal was more frontloaded so his cap number mostly goes down, Giants can do the same thing but backload the contract and give him a larger signing bonus(which gets prorated) to lower his cap in the first 2 years.
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