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The offensive line.

optimist : 2/14/2017 10:39 am
There are a lot of really good discussions about all phases of attack. That is RB, TE, WR and QB. In my very limited knowledge of offensive football, I believe it all starts with the offensive line.

Great need, Pocket and time for Eli to get his selection done.

a) left tackle....in days of old the left tackle sat 2-3 years before getting a chance....now the 2-3 years are on the line , in action. Will this be the year Flowers to blossom?
If so we're in, if not then it's another waiting with a new LT. I say one more year, and pick a backup?

b) right tackle. I don't know much except that it seems to be a need, but Macadoo seems to like Newhaus. Bad coaching, bad rapport between linemen or bad linemen. Running out of possible reasons here. Bad offensive calls?

c)Right guard. Jerry is getting plus reviews from Macadoo. Who to believe and what's the truth?

d)Great need , Holes for running back.

Is this the running back's fault or the OL line fault, bad coaching or bad offensive calls?

Soap Box talking here!!!!!


There are so many things that are going on in any play, especially execution so how to break them all down for each play?

I don't know nor do I have any idea how to do it but I will say when I see a fan jump on ONE aspect of situation and declare a solution, I have to dismiss that solution offhanded as a "knee jerk" response.

There are eleven people in action and all are doing their thing based on the offensive call and the execution of each of them. The play will have difficulty of success if all the pieces are not in sync... and the players are not capable of carrying out their assignments.

So with all this happening, I expect an isolation on each part of the play but I never seem to get anyone putting the parts back together to determine why the play succeeded or failed.

It could easily be that based on what is available to the fan (Not having access to Coaches' film) is just not enough to do that or it is a huge time-consuming operation.

In which instance then, thank you for letting me give my most inadequate thoughts and opinion











Flowers has the tools to be a good OLT,  
Keith : 2/14/2017 10:42 am : link
but him taking the necessary steps will all depend on how bad he wants it. How much work is he willing to put in? To me, it didn't seem like there was much improvement from year 1-2 and if you read between the lines, I'm not sure he put the work in that was needed.

The giants should bring in competent competition for OLT and make Flowers earn it.
If Newhouse or Jerry  
Renton : 2/14/2017 10:55 am : link
are starting next year, then nothing was fixed. They are 2 journeymen, at best.
We know Pugh is the LG and  
ryanmkeane : 2/14/2017 10:56 am : link
Richburg is the C. I think the most ideal scenario is to sign one tackle and one guard in free agency + draf 1 OL in the top 3 rounds, and then let the other positions play themselves out in camp.
I am giving EF at least another year  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 11:07 am : link
with Solari before beginning to worry. If, as has been asserted by scouts that physically he has all the tools, then hopefully the bulb goes on techniques-wise in year 2 under Solari's tutalege
RE: If Newhouse or Jerry  
Patrick77 : 2/14/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13360568 Renton said:
Quote:
are starting next year, then nothing was fixed. They are 2 journeymen, at best.


If Hart or Flowers are starting next year, then nothing is fixed. They are 2 journeyman at best (thus far).


So we're kind of fucked having to replace those 4 and Beatty in one offseason.

What I hope for is 1-2 key free agents brought in to compete with the 4 above and a draft pick. If the Giants can get a serviceable LT I'd be fine with bringing back Jerry and Newhouse to compete with Hart and Flowers.
IMHO, Pugh and Richburg are not OL that will make our OL better  
No Where Man : 2/14/2017 11:18 am : link
We need to supplement maulers at both OG spots. Pugh and Richburg are finesse players at best. Our scouting department has to revamp the criteria in what they look for in an OL. Moton and Asiata are two players who should be available in rounds 1 and 2. Their size and attitudes are what this line needs. You can then try Flowers or Moton at RT, with the other at RG. Keep Richburg, try Asiata at LG and try Pugh at LT.
RE: I am giving EF at least another year  
RetroJint : 2/14/2017 11:20 am : link
In comment 13360589 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with Solari before beginning to worry. If, as has been asserted by scouts that physically he has all the tools, then hopefully the bulb goes on techniques-wise in year 2 under Solari's tutalege

It doesn't usually take that long. I'm not sure how attentive he is to film study. I guess most young guys can get better at those types of things . However , Solari has already instructed him technique- wise to the hilt. There is no progression like 101 LOT, culminating in a Master's . He does revert when stressed. Bad sign. Most guys will not be able to overcome that glaring deficiency. I'm not hopeful but will remain open minded.
RE: RE: I am giving EF at least another year  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13360610 RetroJint said:
Quote:
In comment 13360589 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with Solari before beginning to worry. If, as has been asserted by scouts that physically he has all the tools, then hopefully the bulb goes on techniques-wise in year 2 under Solari's tutalege


It doesn't usually take that long. I'm not sure how attentive he is to film study. I guess most young guys can get better at those types of things . However , Solari has already instructed him technique- wise to the hilt. There is no progression like 101 LOT, culminating in a Master's . He does revert when stressed. Bad sign. Most guys will not be able to overcome that glaring deficiency. I'm not hopeful but will remain open minded.


Hope is probably all we have at the moment
Flowers  
stretch234 : 2/14/2017 12:06 pm : link
What competent FA LT is going to come to the Giants to compete for the LT job, when that player can find a starting job on many other teams. LT don't go to compete for a job, they go to start and get the money
Joe Staley  
PEEJ : 2/14/2017 12:12 pm : link
might be a good trade target. He's got 3 years left on his contract. Makes about $8M this year, but the last 2 years are at about $5M. He's 32 and Cleveland may be trying to build a younger team. Maybe a #2 pick this year and a #3 in 2018 ?
RE: Joe Staley  
Victor in CT : 2/14/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13360729 PEEJ said:
Quote:
might be a good trade target. He's got 3 years left on his contract. Makes about $8M this year, but the last 2 years are at about $5M. He's 32 and Cleveland may be trying to build a younger team. Maybe a #2 pick this year and a #3 in 2018 ?


except he plays for the 49ers
RE: I am giving EF at least another year  
WillVAB : 2/14/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13360589 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with Solari before beginning to worry. If, as has been asserted by scouts that physically he has all the tools, then hopefully the bulb goes on techniques-wise in year 2 under Solari's tutalege


Flowers was worse this year than his rookie year. The time to worry is now if the Giants don't bring in competition via FA and/or the draft.
Players like money  
Patrick77 : 2/14/2017 1:00 pm : link
Pay them enough and they will sign. Also, at this point if Whitworth or someone like that came here Flowers wouldn't compete at LT, he would compete elsewhere.
Flowers did not improve from year 1 to 2  
nicky43 : 2/14/2017 1:09 pm : link
He kept resorting to his bad habits which tells me they are too ingrained in his head to be removed. He is obviously a slow learner and I put stock in a persons rate of learning. I wouldn't expect that rate to increase this though it is possible some other parts of his game and the play book he also must concentrate on will be a little more familiar to him freeing up some focus to fix the bad habits.

I'll be pissed if we don't pick up 2 big improvements to the line weather by FA or by Draft. We just can't go 5 straight years with a horrible oline.

Problem is,  
Doomster : 2/14/2017 1:17 pm : link
I am giving EF at least another year
Big Blue '56 : 11:07 am : link : reply
with Solari before beginning to worry. If, as has been asserted by scouts that physically he has all the tools, then hopefully the bulb goes on techniques-wise in year 2 under Solari's tutalege


Solari had all kinds of film on Flowers, from the year before......and there was absolutely no difference between Flowers year one, and Flowers year two....So, a change in coaching made no difference......what does that say about the player? What does that say about the coaching?

We thought Reese was finally on the right track a couple seasons ago, getting Richburg, Flowers and Pugh.....all we needed was a RG and RT....or so we thought.....

Basically, this OL, is really no better off than it was 3 years ago.....

Even I thought, the line would be better, mainly because they had time together as a unit, and that supposedly, we had a new line coach that could get the best out of these guys...instead, there was no improvement...in fact, they may have played even worse than last season.....we don't have any linemen that are road graders.....we have a group of guys, who seem to take turns screwing up, which goes back to the coaching.....

We need a minimum of two new starters....and then once again, it will be a learning process for these guys to learn to play together.....

As others have mentioned, what is available, and what we are willing to pay for them, are two different approaches......what we want we might not be able to afford, and if the top players are signed quickly, you are basically left with what you already have.....

We have room to make moves......question is, are the Giants attractive enough for these free agents?
I'm with BB'56 on this  
AnnapolisMike : 2/14/2017 2:32 pm : link
Unless a dream LT is hitting free agency this year...and by all accounts that is not the case. I think we are kinda stuck hoping the light bulb goes off and he takes a step forward. He was not the reason the offense slide backward last year. I seem to recall him at LT for a pretty good offense the year before.

Bring in or draft a guy for competition and hope Flowers responds.

I'm going to guess that the Giants know what they have and are going to do the right thing here. Half the team would be cut if BBI had their way.
sadly  
mdc1 : 2/14/2017 2:44 pm : link
I disagree on Flowers. If he had it he would be showing it to move to that next elite and pay level. I doubt we see it and better do something about it. What really bothered me about this kid was his limited time in football, maybe he is not really a football type that loves the game, pressure, and drive to succeed.
BBi can pick and dump on every giant players shortcomings  
xman : 2/14/2017 3:41 pm : link
easily and often with good reason. But when it comes to the QB's shortcomings and there are a few, people go ballistic. Our line is average as is our QB. That combination will make it hard to go deep into the playoffs.
After all my thinking....and it hurt!!  
optimist : 2/14/2017 3:50 pm : link
I tried to get a more comprehensive view from you out there but the general view was back to selective solutions.

I really can't say you're wrong at all! What I see is basically bad or poor execution. The solutions in cutting people cause as much or more problems trying to get the new people working in synch, so I can't go along with change for change's sake.

I don't know what the solution is but I would tend to keep the status quo for one more year. The obvious solutions in the old days was (?) to keep working the guys out together until they either dropped or got better. Then get new guys and stash them. That can't occur today because of the contract and free agency.

so the obvious answer is what Bellicheck is doing. Set up a system and trade, draft or FA specific people to fit the system. constantly look for new people to fill the void FIR THAT PERIOD OF TIME. All the time looking for replacements to fit around the core.

We don't have a solid core on offense....Not yet!!

So either we bite the bullet and wait and develop that core or we constantly chase and discard those who are not developing fast enough.. Remember we're looking for a CORE! That means players who are good enough to be leaders at their position AND are a group that work well together.

Again I'm talking of the OL primarily. If they can give the QB time or open and sustain blocks for the running backs, Get to the second level without making mistakes....then Winning will occur and all this player complaining will stop.

I think this next year is the pass or fail for Flower as a LT. The same for the tandem on the right side.

This coming season is the sit, wait and pray that the players develop and come together. If they don't then don't blame the players. They were good enough to be chosen for the NFL, Then it must fall on the GM. Coach and position coaches. I'd say owners but they are the "above reproach Stupid people" who just drink the milk of the cash cow. Yes that's Tisch and Mara.

So This is the third year for the OL line as it is set up. Time to shit or get off the pot! At the end of 2017 Macadoo is either a genius or a Jerk. It's in his court. JM, RT and JR have absolved themselves of guilt by buying a defensive unit.

That's my opinion and Lord knows it has little in the way of fact!













Not only is this thread about 1 year late, it is redundant  
Ivan15 : 2/14/2017 4:04 pm : link
.
Ivan,  
optimist : 2/14/2017 4:37 pm : link
Thank you for your sage perspective on the situation. Unlike you so many of us were not here a year ago...Plus this is a new season, a new year. There is no static only dynamic....Go forward or go back.

last year must have been a wonderful year for those who remember.

Could you bring up the archive so we might see what the conclusion to the thread was?

thank you for helping out here.
IMO there is no solution to OLT  
mrvax : 2/14/2017 4:59 pm : link
that can be acquired this off season.

I doubt Whitworth leaves Cincy unless they insist on moving him off LT or screwing him with pay. There are no plug and play draftees at LT either.

If Flowers doesn't show a marked improvement in camp, I move Pugh to LT. Let Flowers try RT or guard. Grab 1-2 guards in free agency and draft 1-2 Oline guys for 2018.

Eli doesn't have enough time to throw the ball on most passing downs and that is a fact.
Flowers is not a LT,  
TMS : 2/14/2017 10:09 pm : link
but might be an all pro RT or Guard, Bite the bullet and make the move. IMO.
Flowers still has a shot...  
Rafflee : 2/14/2017 11:28 pm : link
He's very young...they've given him very little help in terms of a Tight End and Running game. Sure, he's hurt his own cause, but I still like the Athleticism and the Aggression--- he can be an outstanding player, even at LT.

LT is very much like Corner Back---the failure and visibility can eat you up.
RE: IMHO, Pugh and Richburg are not OL that will make our OL better  
Beer Man : 2/15/2017 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13360605 No Where Man said:
Quote:
We need to supplement maulers at both OG spots. Pugh and Richburg are finesse players at best. Our scouting department has to revamp the criteria in what they look for in an OL. Moton and Asiata are two players who should be available in rounds 1 and 2. Their size and attitudes are what this line needs. You can then try Flowers or Moton at RT, with the other at RG. Keep Richburg, try Asiata at LG and try Pugh at LT.
I am a big fan of outfitting the O-line with Maulers, but the Giants utilize a zone blocking scheme for their running game. For this you need the more athletic linemen (or finesse) who can shift and pull.
They need both a LT and a RT.  
Since1965 : 2/15/2017 4:43 pm : link
and Flowers needs to move to RG. Maybe he can be the mauler we need in there at RG.
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