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Cap Space: Over the Cap vs Sport-Trac

pjcas18 : 2/14/2017 10:42 am
Just an FYI..the cap is so fluid right now, I don't know any source is 100% accurate, but I do see a lot of people citing Sport trac #'s.

Over the Cap has the Giants at 31.7M
Sport-trac has at 34.5M

Just my amateur sleuthing and comparing Sporr trac with Over the Cap player by player I found a couple errors in Sport Trac Giants cap numbers.

1. DRC. DRC had a 2017 500k salary escalator if he recorded 5 or more INT's in 2016. Last game of the year DRC had two picks to end up with 6, making his salary 6.98M, OTC has it correct, Sport trac still has 6.48M.

2. Casillas, had a 2017 500K salary escalator based on 2015/2016 playing time. I don't have the details, but it appears he reached those playing time incentives, OTC has the correct salary, Sport trac is 500k too low.

thats $1M difference right there just with those two players.

So, I know 34.5M (sport trac) vs 31.7M (OTC) might seem meaningless right now, that's actually a significant difference.

I personally trust OTC more than Sport-trac, but just thought I'd highlight those discrepancies and maybe Jordan or Patti or another beat writer with maybe more insight into the incentives and escalators can confirm where we are for cap room.

Somewhat irrelevant right now, but a lot of misinformation out there.
OverTheCap  
EddieNYG : 2/14/2017 11:04 am : link
Seems to be more accurate
We can sign and re-sign a bunch  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2017 11:11 am : link
of needs if Abrams is allowed to do his creative cap thing, without hurting us down the road..

A FT on JPP would kill us bis a vis addressing O needs, imo..Perhaps the cap people can pull me back a little from the franchise tag ledge
RE: We can sign and re-sign a bunch  
Milton : 2/14/2017 11:18 am : link
In comment 13360594 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
of needs if Abrams is allowed to do his creative cap thing, without hurting us down the road..

A FT on JPP would kill us bis a vis addressing O needs, imo..Perhaps the cap people can pull me back a little from the franchise tag ledge
It won't, so come down from the ledge. The only thing keeping the Giants from addressing their needs on offense is the availability of talent and their real value vs market value. If the Giants put a value on a free agent that matches his market value, they will sign him and JPP's cap considerations won't impact their willingness.
RE: We can sign and re-sign a bunch  
pjcas18 : 2/14/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13360594 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
of needs if Abrams is allowed to do his creative cap thing, without hurting us down the road..

A FT on JPP would kill us bis a vis addressing O needs, imo..Perhaps the cap people can pull me back a little from the franchise tag ledge


I'm certainly not the person to talk you off the ledge here. Maybe Optimus or another cap expert.

i think the tag is worse for the Giants than it would be for JPP. After playing this year on the tag for example JPP would have earned almost $55M in his career, that's probably the top 1% of NFL player career earnings. and after the season the Giants would have nothing to show for it. 17.5M down the drain essentially instead of paying down guarantees on a LT contract.

I don't want JPP on the tag. At best as a tool to buy time for a LT contract.
RE: RE: We can sign and re-sign a bunch  
Milton : 2/14/2017 11:33 am : link
In comment 13360608 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
After playing this year on the tag for example JPP would have earned almost $55M in his career...and after the season the Giants would have nothing to show for it.
What if they win the Super Bowl? A Super Bowl trophy would be nothing to show for it?
Alternatively...  
Milton : 2/14/2017 11:36 am : link
The Giants don't tag JPP and he signs with another team for $85M over five years. So the Giants controlled the rights of a player with a free market value of $17M/year and they allowed him to leave the team with nothing to show for it. That's not a smart way for an organization to manage its assets.
Giants might be able to get  
PEEJ : 2/14/2017 11:43 am : link
a decent comp pick , if they let JPP go.
RE: Giants might be able to get  
jlukes : 2/14/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13360663 PEEJ said:
Quote:
a decent comp pick , if they let JPP go.


Yes, but don't forget comp picks are NET so anybody we sign from another team would reduce that compensation.

He'd probably get us a 3rd, but if we go out and sign two starting lineman then it might turn into a 6th or even nothing
RE: RE: RE: We can sign and re-sign a bunch  
pjcas18 : 2/14/2017 11:47 am : link
In comment 13360634 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13360608 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


After playing this year on the tag for example JPP would have earned almost $55M in his career...and after the season the Giants would have nothing to show for it.

What if they win the Super Bowl? A Super Bowl trophy would be nothing to show for it?


Sorry of course, on the field there could be lots to gain for a one-year FT "contract", but I'm strictly speaking cap.
RE: Alternatively...  
chuckydee9 : 2/14/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13360644 Milton said:
Quote:
The Giants don't tag JPP and he signs with another team for $85M over five years. So the Giants controlled the rights of a player with a free market value of $17M/year and they allowed him to leave the team with nothing to show for it. That's not a smart way for an organization to manage its assets.


While it makes short term business sense to do this. I am not sure that this is what the giants will do.. He was brought in on a discounted deal to prove that he can still play with 8.5 fingers.. Giants had already Franchise tagged him 2 years ago..with the agreement that he would be free after that.. I think they try to work out a deal with him.. if not then they let him walk because that was the deal when we put the FT on him 2 years ago and when he signed for a prove it deal last year.. I hope he comes back.. he definitely deserves the money but Giants shouldn't over spend on him and definitely not Hankins.. 4 years for 50-60M seems right..

Even if they sign him we need more DE's.. JR has gotten away from investing in DEs and it shows when both our DEs are on the field 96% of the time..
RE: RE: Alternatively...  
Milton : 2/14/2017 11:55 am : link
In comment 13360679 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
Giants had already Franchise tagged him 2 years ago..with the agreement that he would be free after that.. I think they try to work out a deal with him.. if not then they let him walk because that was the deal when we put the FT on him 2 years ago and when he signed for a prove it deal last year.
Huh? This is the first I'm hearing of any agreement not to tag him. Can you provide a link?
Devon Kennard is $1.1M of difference  
shyster : 2/14/2017 12:08 pm : link
Significant chunk of the $3M OTC/Spotrac difference is that OTC has Kennard at $1.87M while Spotrac has him at $726K.

That difference is OTC crediting Kennard with the "proven performance escalator" due mid-round draftees who meet certain performance time levels.

Spotrac only notes on Kennard's player page that the escalator is available but there seems no doubt Kennard is due and the OTC number is again more accurate.

RE: Devon Kennard is $1.1M of difference  
pjcas18 : 2/14/2017 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13360723 shyster said:
Quote:
Significant chunk of the $3M OTC/Spotrac difference is that OTC has Kennard at $1.87M while Spotrac has him at $726K.

That difference is OTC crediting Kennard with the "proven performance escalator" due mid-round draftees who meet certain performance time levels.

Spotrac only notes on Kennard's player page that the escalator is available but there seems no doubt Kennard is due and the OTC number is again more accurate.


That's 2.1M difference all in favor of OTC being more accurate.

that leaves around 500k difference I believe.

For the record if someone asked me the Giants cap room I'd go with the 31.7M on over the cap (not that it matters greatly in this period of fluidity, but like I said a lot of misinformation this time of year, might as well be as accurate as possible).

OverTheCap is more accurate  
Optimus-NY : 2/14/2017 12:30 pm : link
Always has been. Jordan and Patti don't know as much about the Giants' cap as Jason Fitzgerald from OTC does.
IF you tag JPP  
fkap : 2/14/2017 12:40 pm : link
you plan on giving him 17 this year, and then lose him OR sign him for a huge contract next year.

last time they tagged him, it was because they were unsure if he's worth the long term contract. that should no longer be the case now. they know what they have. pay him his value, or walk away. you can use the tag as leverage, but you plan on giving him the tag value.

The tag all comes off the top, right now. there is no cap magic to defer it. It DOES affect your ability to sign players. Right now, we're about 30 mil under the cap. minus 17 brings you to 13. that puts you at the ability to sign or re-sign one or two medium tier players, plus your draft. nothing to write home about.

there's one or two more medium tier players/contracts that can be cut, but overall, most of the fat is trimmed.

you don't need to be on the ledge IF we tag JPP, but only a fool says no big deal. think long and hard before advocating a tag. the ledge is a little drastic, but looking out the window and thinking about putting one foot out isn't out of the question.

We're not necessarily bargain basement shopping if he's tagged, but we are shopping at discount stores.

give him a long term contract and you likely 'gain' another 10 mil for signing players next year. the price will be paid down the road, but not nearly as much as tagging him now and re-signing him next year.
RE: RE: Alternatively...  
Deadass NYG : 2/14/2017 4:29 pm : link
In comment 13360679 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 13360644 Milton said:


Quote:


The Giants don't tag JPP and he signs with another team for $85M over five years. So the Giants controlled the rights of a player with a free market value of $17M/year and they allowed him to leave the team with nothing to show for it. That's not a smart way for an organization to manage its assets.



While it makes short term business sense to do this. I am not sure that this is what the giants will do.. He was brought in on a discounted deal to prove that he can still play with 8.5 fingers.. Giants had already Franchise tagged him 2 years ago..with the agreement that he would be free after that.. I think they try to work out a deal with him.. if not then they let him walk because that was the deal when we put the FT on him 2 years ago and when he signed for a prove it deal last year.. I hope he comes back.. he definitely deserves the money but Giants shouldn't over spend on him and definitely not Hankins.. 4 years for 50-60M seems right..

Even if they sign him we need more DE's.. JR has gotten away from investing in DEs and it shows when both our DEs are on the field 96% of the time..


*7.5 fingers hahahah

But I agree with what you're saying. Bringing back JPP has to be a long term deal or he won't sign it. I personally believe he wants to keep playing in New York, if he didn't he wouldn't have played under back to back 1-year deals. But if the money isn't right I believe he will walk. The Giants have to be smart about it because although he is a valuable asset, they shouldn't "overpay" for a player who has only played one full season over the last 4 years.
'I personally trust OTC more than Spotrac'...  
Torrag : 2/15/2017 7:09 am : link
Over the years tracking the Giants cap and doing free agent/draft projections OTC is the more accurate site.
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