I know he wants Vernon numbers and I think he is gonna be close with less guaranteed money. 5 years/$80 million. $20 million signing bonus with about $40-45 million guaranteed seems reasonable to me.
Vernon was 5/85 with $20M signing and $52.5M guaranteed. JPP has 75% of the number of fingers Vernon has and an injury history. So $40-45M feels appropriate.
The last contract offer before he blew his fingers off was 4 year 60 million...no way the Giants go less...I believe the last contract is the starting point for negotiations...
Unfortunately the complication here is the Vernon contract...at 5 years 85 million...Vernon an inferior player is getting $17 million....JPP last contract was for $15 million...no way will anybody play for less then somebody on the same team that clearly they are better then...bottom line ask opposing OL...who is the more difficult assignment...JPP or Vernon...yes Vernon is good...but JPP is longer...has prototypical size...a much tougher assignment then Vernon period...most OL facing both will tell you that...
So based on the above...Reece must offer JPP $17.5-$18 million...the question with JPP is he is older and durability and ability to finish the contract...so based on that a valid argument can be made that 5 years may be risky...unless there is a performance based kicker that would be available unless he shows that he is durable and continues to perform...so what the Giants should do is offer a 3 year contract with 3/5 of the guarantee that Vernon got or $31.5 million guarantee vs $52 million for Vernon...
The incentive kickers are as follows...in year #2 of the contract...if JPP were to start at least 14 games started a 4th year at $18 million...same with year #3...JPP would need a minimum of 14 games and a minimum sack number hypotheticaLLY 10 sacks...then a 5th year would automatically be guaranteed...
This is how the contract should be structured...a win win for both sides...you pay the better player more money on an annual basis...and the Giants get a measure of protection whereby they can get out of the contract or renegotiate at a lower price...if JPP can't stay on the field and his performance drops...
You base the deal on what you are expecting to get going forward not what you've gotten years previous. OV is better than JPP going forward. He was named 2nd team All Pro and JPP was not for a reason.. ability means nothing without availability.
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take it or leave it. He'll probably get more on the open market, but is he willing to chance it? If so, move on.
The last contract offer before he blew his fingers off was 4 year 60 million...no way the Giants go less...I believe the last contract is the starting point for negotiations...
Unfortunately the complication here is the Vernon contract...at 5 years 85 million...Vernon an inferior player is getting $17 million....JPP last contract was for $15 million...no way will anybody play for less then somebody on the same team that clearly they are better then...bottom line ask opposing OL...who is the more difficult assignment...JPP or Vernon...yes Vernon is good...but JPP is longer...has prototypical size...a much tougher assignment then Vernon period...most OL facing both will tell you that...
So based on the above...Reece must offer JPP $17.5-$18 million...the question with JPP is he is older and durability and ability to finish the contract...so based on that a valid argument can be made that 5 years may be risky...unless there is a performance based kicker that would be available unless he shows that he is durable and continues to perform...so what the Giants should do is offer a 3 year contract with 3/5 of the guarantee that Vernon got or $31.5 million guarantee vs $52 million for Vernon...
The incentive kickers are as follows...in year #2 of the contract...if JPP were to start at least 14 games started a 4th year at $18 million...same with year #3...JPP would need a minimum of 14 games and a minimum sack number hypotheticaLLY 10 sacks...then a 5th year would automatically be guaranteed...
This is how the contract should be structured...a win win for both sides...you pay the better player more money on an annual basis...and the Giants get a measure of protection whereby they can get out of the contract or renegotiate at a lower price...if JPP can't stay on the field and his performance drops...
WRONG! the offer that was pulled off the table when he blew off his fingers was 5 years 60 million!
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In comment 13362053 Section331 said:
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take it or leave it. He'll probably get more on the open market, but is he willing to chance it? If so, move on.
The last contract offer before he blew his fingers off was 4 year 60 million...no way the Giants go less...I believe the last contract is the starting point for negotiations...
Unfortunately the complication here is the Vernon contract...at 5 years 85 million...Vernon an inferior player is getting $17 million....JPP last contract was for $15 million...no way will anybody play for less then somebody on the same team that clearly they are better then...bottom line ask opposing OL...who is the more difficult assignment...JPP or Vernon...yes Vernon is good...but JPP is longer...has prototypical size...a much tougher assignment then Vernon period...most OL facing both will tell you that...
So based on the above...Reece must offer JPP $17.5-$18 million...the question with JPP is he is older and durability and ability to finish the contract...so based on that a valid argument can be made that 5 years may be risky...unless there is a performance based kicker that would be available unless he shows that he is durable and continues to perform...so what the Giants should do is offer a 3 year contract with 3/5 of the guarantee that Vernon got or $31.5 million guarantee vs $52 million for Vernon...
The incentive kickers are as follows...in year #2 of the contract...if JPP were to start at least 14 games started a 4th year at $18 million...same with year #3...JPP would need a minimum of 14 games and a minimum sack number hypotheticaLLY 10 sacks...then a 5th year would automatically be guaranteed...
This is how the contract should be structured...a win win for both sides...you pay the better player more money on an annual basis...and the Giants get a measure of protection whereby they can get out of the contract or renegotiate at a lower price...if JPP can't stay on the field and his performance drops...
WRONG! the offer that was pulled off the table when he blew off his fingers was 5 years 60 million!
That was when he was 25-26 years old also!
Agreed and then you tell him he can sign that 4/60 whenever he is ready or play on that one year deal which we all know he won't. As long as the offer isn't a EddieNYG offer (just messin') which would be a slap in the face, JPP isn't going anywhere.
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...or here comes the tag.
Agreed and then you tell him he can sign that 4/60 whenever he is ready or play on that one year deal which we all know he won't. As long as the offer isn't a EddieNYG offer (just messin') which would be a slap in the face, JPP isn't going anywhere.
If you want to re-sign him with no problems than offering him $15 mil per year will do the trick.
I wouldn't offer more than $10 mil per year. Let him test free agency and see what he can get.
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In comment 13362184 Torrag said:
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...or here comes the tag.
Agreed and then you tell him he can sign that 4/60 whenever he is ready or play on that one year deal which we all know he won't. As long as the offer isn't a EddieNYG offer (just messin') which would be a slap in the face, JPP isn't going anywhere.
If you want to re-sign him with no problems than offering him $15 mil per year will do the trick.
I wouldn't offer more than $10 mil per year. Let him test free agency and see what he can get.
Safe to say you would show him the door then, right...?
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Overall for his career and this season until he got injured in Pitsburgh game he was better than OV.. JPP is a top 5 defensive end when healthy.. I'd don't think we should pay him OV money but He is better when on the field..
You base the deal on what you are expecting to get going forward not what you've gotten years previous. OV is better than JPP going forward. He was named 2nd team All Pro and JPP was not for a reason.. ability means nothing without availability.
Agreed, thats why I said we shouldn't pay him OV money but negotiations are 2 sided and from his perspective he is a better player albeit older.. so he should get at least the same kind of annual pay..
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In comment 13362207 est1986 said:
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In comment 13362184 Torrag said:
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...or here comes the tag.
Agreed and then you tell him he can sign that 4/60 whenever he is ready or play on that one year deal which we all know he won't. As long as the offer isn't a EddieNYG offer (just messin') which would be a slap in the face, JPP isn't going anywhere.
If you want to re-sign him with no problems than offering him $15 mil per year will do the trick.
I wouldn't offer more than $10 mil per year. Let him test free agency and see what he can get.
Safe to say you would show him the door then, right...?
I don't want to lose JPP. It's a cap issue. I don't want to have two DE's making over $15 mil per.
JPP is two years older than Vernon
JPP is three years older than Vernon
JPP is 89 years old!
JPP is always injured!
JPP should play for well below market value!
At this point the "discussion" is just random viewpoints being yelled in a bar over loud music. Even a simple google search is too much to ask.
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In comment 13362215 EddieNYG said:
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In comment 13362207 est1986 said:
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In comment 13362184 Torrag said:
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...or here comes the tag.
Agreed and then you tell him he can sign that 4/60 whenever he is ready or play on that one year deal which we all know he won't. As long as the offer isn't a EddieNYG offer (just messin') which would be a slap in the face, JPP isn't going anywhere.
If you want to re-sign him with no problems than offering him $15 mil per year will do the trick.
I wouldn't offer more than $10 mil per year. Let him test free agency and see what he can get.
Safe to say you would show him the door then, right...?
\
I don't want to lose JPP. It's a cap issue. I don't want to have two DE's making over $15 mil per.
Ok I understand, but what if that's the case just for two or three years? No one is talking about fully guarenting JPP's whole deal.. these 4 or 5 year deals can become 2 or 3 year deals easily... If you have the money, you have to use it if you want to compete for championships.
TIOLI...
You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season.
It was a very dumb comment from a BBI regular. JPP played very well last year, IMO.
Injury risk? Of course, with all players. Not counting blowing up his hand as an injury, he misses five games in 2013 and four in 2016. Took almost every snap in his 12 games back with the Giants this year.
No risk, no reward
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You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season.
You are leaving out the fact that JPP will not sign a tag! And will have to negotiate soley with the NY Giants on a long term deal, which is why we want to tag him! We will easily have another 20 million to flex with after we tag him, plenty of room to make other moves while we wait on JPP, who will feel the heat of having to prove it all over again... Tagging him only increases our leverage.. we will tag him and then he will agree to a long term deal unless he agrees to it right away before we tag him.
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You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season.
We can tag him... Sign AP and a OL and still be fine. And if we don't want to wait around for him to make up his mind and we have another option we want to pursue we can pull the tag..
right to me. I am not breaking the bank for JPP.
They have another DT to try and sign and other needs.
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In comment 13362126 est1986 said:
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...
You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season.
We can tag him... Sign AP and a OL and still be fine. And if we don't want to wait around for him to make up his mind and we have another option we want to pursue we can pull the tag..
I highly doubt they tag him again.
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In comment 13362126 est1986 said:
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You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season.
You are leaving out the fact that JPP will not sign a tag! And will have to negotiate soley with the NY Giants on a long term deal, which is why we want to tag him! We will easily have another 20 million to flex with after we tag him, plenty of room to make other moves while we wait on JPP, who will feel the heat of having to prove it all over again... Tagging him only increases our leverage.. we will tag him and then he will agree to a long term deal unless he agrees to it right away before we tag him.
Players don't like the tag and owners/GMs don't like the tag. You keep saying tag him it's a no brainer, but there's a reason why there are only about 3-4 tags thrown around every year. It's not a no brainer. A tag brings risk. IT also drums up animosity at times.
The Giants don't want to tag JPP and JPP doesn't want to be tagged. Why havent't they tagged him yet if it's such a no brainer? These are people, not machines.
I'd consider it if I knew JPP was going to take himself to another NFC East team and even then i'd be hesitant.
Sign him for 3-4 years and get it the hell over with. 4 years, 35-40 mill guaranteed.
I think you want the guy on the team for the next 3 years. He will be 30 years old at the start of the 3rd year. If you make me choose between a great offense and great defense....I am taking great defense EVERY time. Without someone like JPP the Giants are merely a good defense.
The overpaying thing is only going to impact JPP. The Giants won't change their stance on JPP despite what they gave Vernon. Vernon was a cleaner FA. You want the big bucks in FA? Don't get hurt the year before. Don't blow your hand off two years prior to that. It's that simple.
JPP is going to get a lot of money offered from the Giants. IF he wants to check his ego and play for a team and system and city he's comfortable with, he can do so and make a lot of money in the process. If he wants to set the bar or approach the bar then he's going to leave and play elsewhere. And odds are he will probably regret leaving.
I do think those who show surprise at the prospect of letting JPP go, or not paying him $15M+ per, are often not seeing the full bigger picture.
If he gets Vernon money, my bet is that JPP isn't a Giant next year. djm is right, Vernon may not be quite as good, but he was a lot cleaner. Even before he blew up his hand, JPP had back concerns. Blows up his hand, then misses a bunch of games this year - that is going to hurt his value.
HERE IS THE WHOLE POINT ABOUT APPLYING THE TAG TO JPP
No way, no how does JPP play anywhere other than with the Giants if he gets tagged, unless someone gives up first rounders, which we would all be glad to take... If JPP does not sign a long term deal, he will have to stay healthy and prove it all over again in 2017 if he ever wants that 'big pay day'... JPP can't use the leverage a lot of people who get tagged use, that being sitting out the whole year or most of the year... JPP will never collect a multi-year deal if he does that in 2017... He will be a year older and there will be more question marks than there already is... Tag him and he has two options.. Play balls out on a 1 year 17 million dollar deal and prove it... or take less than he is looking for and sign the long term deal.
tag him and worst case scenario is he signs it and plays for one year at 17 million, if that happens he is going to have to play at an all pro level in order to cash in the following offseason, meaning he has to be very productive in 2017 which is good for us... best case scenario he watches everyone else get the long term pay day and decides enough is enough and signs the deal the Giants have sitting on the table..
I'm not saying I would be in the take or leave it camp, but I think this is where I think the Giants should and would be players at... 4 for 52 million, and I may be in the minority on this, but I don't believe JPP is going to get much more than that on the open market.
Ridiculous opinion
I would also add again that the defense played its best football after JPP got hurt. I'm not saying his absence is the reason for the improvement; I'm only saying that we know the defense was able to function at a high level despite his absence.
I think he's going to be back, but the money is better spent elsewhere. I'm not comfortable spending $30 million and still entering 2017 with questions about the four man pass rush.
I officially proclaim I do not know what I want the Giants to do. I only know I want them to get this right. I'd err on the side of signing JPP long term...that's it.
Well if he takes it personal; then fuck him; he can sit out a year and never get that big deal.. Or he can sign the deal and he can cry about making 60 million instead of 80; But I do understand what you mean..
I officially proclaim I do not know what I want the Giants to do. I only know I want them to get this right. I'd err on the side of signing JPP long term...that's it.
I want JPP long term.. not for 17 per year.. but ill take one year at 17 per if I had too only because its not far off his value and its a "safe" one year deal plus I think we will have at least another 20 million or more afterwards to add other pieces to play with... I'm hoping a deal can be struck long term and we will have Rabbit, Landon, Apple, OV, Snacks, and JPP locked up for a few years.. that spells a dominant defense that isn't going anywhere the next two-three seasons minimum.
You don't have to be in love with re-signing JPP but you continuously sell JPP's ability and production short. Relatively speaking he's a great DE. There aren't many that are better.
It's not a big list. There might not even be a list. 4-3 DEs....who's a better overall DE?
There are some equals no doubt. Who is better? I can't honestly think of one guy that jumps out at me other than JJ Watt and he's not really a 4-3 DE anyway. Actually Watt isn't a human being. He's a monster sent from outer space that kind of looks like a DT but the guy's not human. Excluding Watt, who missed half the season with a similar if not identical injury that JPP played through, who else is better?
Best way to improve the pass-rush is to re-sign JPP and add another pass rusher. If you lose JPP we will be praying that Okwara is the goods and the Giants add a capable vet FA, and he will cost a lot of money too, and nail the draft pick.
- production relative to cost
- production relative to potential replacement(s) at that position
- production of his cap space relative to how that cap space could produce at another position
I don't want Ayers back. I am however OK going with Okwara + a draft pick, given how good we've been at drafting defensive ends. Then maybe we use that cap space for another CB so we don't have to live through the Trevin Wade experience again. Or we use that cap space on Whitworth AND another offensive lineman.
JPP has played here seven seasons. He's delivered 10+ sacks in two of those seasons. So yeah he's capable of it but that doesn't mean he's going to do it. Why would I expect his best football now that he's got half a hand and has only given us one complete season in the last four?
I mean, say that out loud. We're on the verge of allotting a lot of cap space to a guy that hasn't played a full season since 2012, and who has an injury to his hand that can not be fully healed.
The money is better spent elsewhere.
If he's healthy he's worth every penny. THere's the risk....but there's a risk in every move.
If he's healthy he's worth every penny. THere's the risk....but there's a risk in every move.
I'm not hung up on sack totals necessarily. I'm hung up on the pass rush being non-existent for most of last season, and the prospect of paying for that problem again not just in 2017 but in 2018 and 2019.
It's funny. Sack totals have been a fine barometer in the past when we've talked about all the great pass rushers we've had here...including JPP in 2011. But now we're paying DEs huge money and not getting the sacks so we rationalize that the sack statistic is overrated.