JPP....what should the contract be?

In comment 13362549 est1986 said:

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In comment 13362332 djm said: Quote: In comment 13362126 est1986 said: Quote: ... You keep saying this but leave out the grotesque 17 mil cap hit for one lousy season. You are leaving out the fact that JPP will not sign a tag! And will have to negotiate soley with the NY Giants on a long term deal, which is why we want to tag him! We will easily have another 20 million to flex with after we tag him, plenty of room to make other moves while we wait on JPP, who will feel the heat of having to prove it all over again... Tagging him only increases our leverage.. we will tag him and then he will agree to a long term deal unless he agrees to it right away before we tag him.

Players don't like the tag and owners/GMs don't like the tag. You keep saying tag him it's a no brainer, but there's a reason why there are only about 3-4 tags thrown around every year. It's not a no brainer. A tag brings risk. IT also drums up animosity at times.

The Giants don't want to tag JPP and JPP doesn't want to be tagged. Why havent't they tagged him yet if it's such a no brainer? These are people, not machines.

a terrible allocation of resources.

I'd consider it if I knew JPP was going to take himself to another NFC East team and even then i'd be hesitant.

Sign him for 3-4 years and get it the hell over with. 4 years, 35-40 mill guaranteed.

if they tagged JPP i'd sleep a little bit better at night but spending 17 mil for one year of service will hamstring this off-season and there's no way the Giants spend a shit load of up front money in back to back off-seasons. Don't talk to me about cap numbers. It's deeper and more complex than that.

The Giants were a better team when he is on the field. If there were not the injury concerns . . . JPP is likely getting at least Vernon $.

I think you want the guy on the team for the next 3 years. He will be 30 years old at the start of the 3rd year. If you make me choose between a great offense and great defense....I am taking great defense EVERY time. Without someone like JPP the Giants are merely a good defense.

and why many talk about the overpaying factor at length, he has an effect on each future decision.

In comment 13362783 JonC said:

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and why many talk about the overpaying factor at length, he has an effect on each future decision.

The overpaying thing is only going to impact JPP. The Giants won't change their stance on JPP despite what they gave Vernon. Vernon was a cleaner FA. You want the big bucks in FA? Don't get hurt the year before. Don't blow your hand off two years prior to that. It's that simple.

JPP is going to get a lot of money offered from the Giants. IF he wants to check his ego and play for a team and system and city he's comfortable with, he can do so and make a lot of money in the process. If he wants to set the bar or approach the bar then he's going to leave and play elsewhere. And odds are he will probably regret leaving.

Except to note many pricey contract extensions will be on tap a year from, which the capologist has certainly mapped out multiple options.

I do think those who show surprise at the prospect of letting JPP go, or not paying him $15M+ per, are often not seeing the full bigger picture.

In comment 13362778 AnnapolisMike said:

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The Giants were a better team when he is on the field. If there were not the injury concerns . . . JPP is likely getting at least Vernon $.

If he gets Vernon money, my bet is that JPP isn't a Giant next year. djm is right, Vernon may not be quite as good, but he was a lot cleaner. Even before he blew up his hand, JPP had back concerns. Blows up his hand, then misses a bunch of games this year - that is going to hurt his value.

We can agree that the tag is not ideal for any party... but if we have a set price we are willing to pay him and if that price doesn't match what he is willing to accept AND we are committed to keeping JPP on this team going forward, which we absolutely should.. you tag him JUST as leverage to get him to agree to the deal you want to give him.

HERE IS THE WHOLE POINT ABOUT APPLYING THE TAG TO JPP

No way, no how does JPP play anywhere other than with the Giants if he gets tagged, unless someone gives up first rounders, which we would all be glad to take... If JPP does not sign a long term deal, he will have to stay healthy and prove it all over again in 2017 if he ever wants that 'big pay day'... JPP can't use the leverage a lot of people who get tagged use, that being sitting out the whole year or most of the year... JPP will never collect a multi-year deal if he does that in 2017... He will be a year older and there will be more question marks than there already is... Tag him and he has two options.. Play balls out on a 1 year 17 million dollar deal and prove it... or take less than he is looking for and sign the long term deal.

tag him and worst case scenario is he signs it and plays for one year at 17 million, if that happens he is going to have to play at an all pro level in order to cash in the following offseason, meaning he has to be very productive in 2017 which is good for us... best case scenario he watches everyone else get the long term pay day and decides enough is enough and signs the deal the Giants have sitting on the table..

In comment 13362053 Section331 said:

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take it or leave it. He'll probably get more on the open market, but is he willing to chance it? If so, move on.

I'm not saying I would be in the take or leave it camp, but I think this is where I think the Giants should and would be players at... 4 for 52 million, and I may be in the minority on this, but I don't believe JPP is going to get much more than that on the open market.

In comment 13362162 Rflairr said:

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last season. Two of them against the Bears and Browns. Lets not go crazy here. He hasn't proven anything with that hand yet.

Ridiculous opinion

but so are the statements that he is an elite player. For the entire first half of the season the pass rush was a big problem, and it remained a theme throughout the season.

I would also add again that the defense played its best football after JPP got hurt. I'm not saying his absence is the reason for the improvement; I'm only saying that we know the defense was able to function at a high level despite his absence.

I think he's going to be back, but the money is better spent elsewhere. I'm not comfortable spending $30 million and still entering 2017 with questions about the four man pass rush.

I hear you...it's somewhat sensible. The FT hedges a lot of scary bets....I just wonder if the FT takes things to critical mass....and while there's a good chance the FT doesn't end up in play even after initially tagging him, it could still be in play in the end.

I officially proclaim I do not know what I want the Giants to do. I only know I want them to get this right. I'd err on the side of signing JPP long term...that's it.

I mean upon hearing the news of the FT, JPP gets very very angry and turns into the hulk.

In comment 13363230 djm said:

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I mean upon hearing the news of the FT, JPP gets very very angry and turns into the hulk.

Well if he takes it personal; then fuck him; he can sit out a year and never get that big deal.. Or he can sign the deal and he can cry about making 60 million instead of 80; But I do understand what you mean..

In comment 13363228 djm said:

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I hear you...it's somewhat sensible. The FT hedges a lot of scary bets....I just wonder if the FT takes things to critical mass....and while there's a good chance the FT doesn't end up in play even after initially tagging him, it could still be in play in the end. I officially proclaim I do not know what I want the Giants to do. I only know I want them to get this right. I'd err on the side of signing JPP long term...that's it.

I want JPP long term.. not for 17 per year.. but ill take one year at 17 per if I had too only because its not far off his value and its a "safe" one year deal plus I think we will have at least another 20 million or more afterwards to add other pieces to play with... I'm hoping a deal can be struck long term and we will have Rabbit, Landon, Apple, OV, Snacks, and JPP locked up for a few years.. that spells a dominant defense that isn't going anywhere the next two-three seasons minimum.

JPP is a good passrusher. He might not be a great one but he's fully capable of 10+ sacks in a season. And more importantly JPP is an elite run defender. Would you rather replace JPP with cheaper and lets say better pass rusher but a guy that wilts against the run? Want Robert Ayers back here? No fucking thanks. And how many DEs going right now are better at rushing the QB than JPP? Maybe 6?

You don't have to be in love with re-signing JPP but you continuously sell JPP's ability and production short. Relatively speaking he's a great DE. There aren't many that are better.

list the better DEs?

It's not a big list. There might not even be a list. 4-3 DEs....who's a better overall DE?

There are some equals no doubt. Who is better? I can't honestly think of one guy that jumps out at me other than JJ Watt and he's not really a 4-3 DE anyway. Actually Watt isn't a human being. He's a monster sent from outer space that kind of looks like a DT but the guy's not human. Excluding Watt, who missed half the season with a similar if not identical injury that JPP played through, who else is better?

any improvement in the D to the JPP departure in December. It's not even fair to say it was a coincidence. The D was improving week by week since October because the entire cast of players started getting it and Vernon was healthy. JPP just happened to get hurt as the D was peaking. IF JPP wasn't hurt, here's a wild concept, the D likely would have played at an even higher level down the stretch.

Best way to improve the pass-rush is to re-sign JPP and add another pass rusher. If you lose JPP we will be praying that Okwara is the goods and the Giants add a capable vet FA, and he will cost a lot of money too, and nail the draft pick.

What is important is:

- production relative to cost
- production relative to potential replacement(s) at that position
- production of his cap space relative to how that cap space could produce at another position

I don't want Ayers back. I am however OK going with Okwara + a draft pick, given how good we've been at drafting defensive ends. Then maybe we use that cap space for another CB so we don't have to live through the Trevin Wade experience again. Or we use that cap space on Whitworth AND another offensive lineman.

JPP has played here seven seasons. He's delivered 10+ sacks in two of those seasons. So yeah he's capable of it but that doesn't mean he's going to do it. Why would I expect his best football now that he's got half a hand and has only given us one complete season in the last four?

I mean, say that out loud. We're on the verge of allotting a lot of cap space to a guy that hasn't played a full season since 2012, and who has an injury to his hand that can not be fully healed.

The money is better spent elsewhere.

but that's a dead horse beaten to death on other threads. JPP is a good pass-rushing 4/3 DE. He's probably one of the best actually. And he's an even better all around player.

If he's healthy he's worth every penny. THere's the risk....but there's a risk in every move.

In comment 13363384 djm said:

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but that's a dead horse beaten to death on other threads. JPP is a good pass-rushing 4/3 DE. He's probably one of the best actually. And he's an even better all around player. If he's healthy he's worth every penny. THere's the risk....but there's a risk in every move.

I'm not hung up on sack totals necessarily. I'm hung up on the pass rush being non-existent for most of last season, and the prospect of paying for that problem again not just in 2017 but in 2018 and 2019.

It's funny. Sack totals have been a fine barometer in the past when we've talked about all the great pass rushers we've had here...including JPP in 2011. But now we're paying DEs huge money and not getting the sacks so we rationalize that the sack statistic is overrated.