by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
Article says projected contract 4 years ; 59 mil ; 21 mil guaranteed Â
Put that on the table and tag him if he doesn't sign it (non-exclusive, let him seek a bigger deal from someone willing to give up more money and a first rounder or two). That projected contract can come at just a 10 million dollar cap hit for this season. So minus 10 million from 34 million, but add another 10 million after cutting Vereen, JT Thomas, and extending Pugh, maybe move DRC to slash another five million and get a draft choice in return or use him in a trade to get a OLT (Joe Thomas). From there I would target Calais Campbell and call AP tell him to come aboard if he really wants to be in the big apple.
This place is going to go crazy over the next two to three weeks. Where is hitdog and the gang?
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Quote:
Projected contract: 4 years, $59 million, $21 million guaranteed
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Quote:
Projected contract: 4 years, $59 million, $21 million guaranteed
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
that's what I'm projecting -- at 13, 16 and 17 in the first three years that's 15.33 million a year - i don't care what they say year 4 or even 5 is -- that money contractually will be like option money because guarantees will be mostly all used up by then
RE: I'd suspect 5 years and at least $40M guaranteed Â
here's what I was predicting in early January - I'm sticking with it...
Quote:
If I'm the Giants...
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2017 9:31 am : link
I offer him 4 yrs $60MM with $32MM guaranteed. I tell him that if he doesn't sign it we are prepared to use the franchise tag again. I remind that anything can happen when you pass up millions guaranteed - nobody knows this better than JPP. I remind him of the value of retiring a NY hero, and tell him he can position the signing as taking less than market value out of love for the organization and its fans. He will have a lifetime of marketing opportunities in the NY area.
I think given time he'd sign the contract. JPP may not be what he once was, but over the next four years he's still going to be a force to reckon with in this league. If he gets lazy or too inconsistent, or if the play of Okwara/others is good enough to make him expendable, they should be able to cut him after two years without too much pain.
last year with 7 1/2 fingers. It's not gonna go downhill from there; if anything it continues to improve. Forget about the hand; he's the best available 4-3 DE by far this year, and someone will pay him, imo. It should be us.
It's about guaranteed money; base it on the Vernon contract Â
Vernon got $50 million "guaranteed", although $40 million is "initially guaranteed".
I would be shocked if JPP ends up signing a contract with only $20 million guaranteed.
Base a JPP contract on the Vernon contract as a starting point. Five years.
Looking at the Vernon contract, I can see discounting the compensation numbers a bit based on age and injury history, and still coming in at around $30 million "initially guaranteed" and $40 million "guaranteed".
You do this by dropping the signing bonus from $20 million to $15 million and dropping the year 1 roster bonus from $7 million to $5 million.
Discounting the Vernon salary by about 15% (which might be too steep), the "initially guaranteed" number comes in at about $32 million.
As Year 3 becomes "guaranteed", JPP's total guaranteed money would come in at a bit over $42 million. It's pretty close to "Vernon money", which is what he wants.
This would put JPP's cap number at about $10 million in year one (the Giants can do this, I believe).
After Year 1, JPP's cap hit would be in the $13 to $15 million range.
Just take the data in the link. Use it as a basis for JPP's contract, and hit the bonuses and salaries with some percentage that you think makes sense.
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Quote:
Projected contract: 4 years, $59 million, $21 million guaranteed
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
that's what I'm projecting -- at 13, 16 and 17 in the first three years that's 15.33 million a year - i don't care what they say year 4 or even 5 is -- that money contractually will be like option money because guarantees will be mostly all used up by then
my guess.. Four years 60 million, 25 million gtd. 10 million this year, 15 million next year. 3rd year option for 15 million, 4th year option for 20 million. Hopefully before March 9th. But I expect the tag will be used in order to keep JPP off the market and aiming for that OV deal from anyone, because no one is giving him that deal and giving up first rounder's, and he wont get that deal next year if he sits out or plays it safe on the field for us in 2017. So he will sign what he can while he can and 4 for 60 is what is fair.
1. JPP signs a long term deal. Hankins is not re-signed. Keenan Robinson returns. NYG signs 1 FA OL, let's say Whitworth. Giants sign Stephan Paea as a 3 Tech DT one year deal.
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
1. JPP signs a long term deal. Hankins is not re-signed. Keenan Robinson returns. NYG signs 1 FA OL, let's say Whitworth. Giants sign Stephan Paea as a 3 Tech DT one year deal.
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
What scenario would you choose?
Option 3 IMO is an example of what we could do in FA if we let JPP walk.
Doesn't mean that much. You wouldn't determine the selling price of a house by taking the average price from the first 5 offers. Whoever bid the highest would get the house and the value of bids 2-5 wouldn't matter.
If he hits the open market this year JPP will probably go to the highest bidder and my guess is that it will be more than $15 mill. per year. (It only takes one team with a lot of cap room to overpay and there are a number of teams that have a lot of cap room.)
So, how do we replace JPP, I would expect through the draft.
Would be happy to have JPP back, but anything north or 13-14 mil per year and it's to much. The franchise tag is way to much against the cap
What OL is available that would stop you from paying JPP. NONE! and its not even close, top tier LT's are as rare as they ever have been in this Free Agency and this Draft. Pay your star player, don't lose him in order to gamble on has been/washed up vet OT's.
you said it would be a "colossal fuck up" if we lost him. What if some team wants to pay him 18-19M a season? Would it be a colssal fuck up if Reese doesn't want to pay that? Let's pump the breaks a bit.
ryan, if worst comes to worst you franchise him rather than Â
The point has been made, there isn't much in the way of high-priced offensive talent available in free agency this year. OL, RBs, nor WRs. The "superstar" players aren't there.
Pittsburgh isn't going to let Bell go. He would be worth "saving" cap money for, but it ain't going to happen!
I think the Giants can get JPP, Hankins, and Keenan Robinson done for about a $18 to $22 million cap hit in year one, assuming the market doesn't go crazy with a number of teams having huge cap space.
That would leave about $10 to $15 million for other free agents. I'm assuming we will end up with about $35 million in free space.
The Giants will make him a very fair offer in my estimation Â
At that point he likely turns them down. The Jags or Browns can or likely will be forced to offer him huge money because they are such shithole franchises currently. Teams need talented relatively young pass rushers.
Once he turns down the Giants offer I can't understand the risk of tagging him. He can bitch, moan, refuse to play, whatever. At the end of the day if they can't sign him long term they should tag him to squeeze one more year out or trade him. And if you honestly think A 28 year old NFL player can refuse to play or play poorly while under the tag then reap a massive reward next offseason... I have many bridges to sell you. Quitting on his team worked for Haynesworth - after he got paid, not before.
Letting JPP hit free agency is one of if not the worst outcome.
you said it would be a "colossal fuck up" if we lost him. What if some team wants to pay him 18-19M a season? Would it be a colssal fuck up if Reese doesn't want to pay that? Let's pump the breaks a bit.
It would be a fuck up if you don't at least non-exclusive tag him to prevent him from getting that kind of money without getting a draft pick in exchange.
The point has been made, there isn't much in the way of high-priced offensive talent available in free agency this year. OL, RBs, nor WRs. The "superstar" players aren't there.
Pittsburgh isn't going to let Bell go. He would be worth "saving" cap money for, but it ain't going to happen!
I think the Giants can get JPP, Hankins, and Keenan Robinson done for about a $18 to $22 million cap hit in year one, assuming the market doesn't go crazy with a number of teams having huge cap space.
That would leave about $10 to $15 million for other free agents. I'm assuming we will end up with about $35 million in free space.
We have $35 million in cap space now. We can still cut JT Thomas and save $3 million, extending Pugh can save another $3 million against this year's cap. Trading or cutting DRC saves $5 million. We will have more than $40 million, maybe close to $50 million. Jerry Reese will find a way.
Have to factor in dollars need for players selected in the draft.
The Giants will probably be north of $35 million free, subtracting out dollars for draftees, I'm going to assume $35 million available for free agents.
So, how do we replace JPP, I would expect through the draft.
Would be happy to have JPP back, but anything north or 13-14 mil per year and it's to much. The franchise tag is way to much against the cap
What OL is available that would stop you from paying JPP. NONE! and its not even close, top tier LT's are as rare as they ever have been in this Free Agency and this Draft. Pay your star player, don't lose him in order to gamble on has been/washed up vet OT's.
I'd start with Zietler, and add from there. Can probably add 3 on the OL for what JPP will cost
May slide to 23 but if they don't and the board falls as expected.. I think it's a really good chance BPA will be a CB. If you can get a good draft pick or a LT for him then you do it.
Vernons contract is 40M fully guaranteed. 12M is not guaranteed until 2018.
You give JPP 4-62 with a 24M signing bonus and guarantee him 44M and he then has both the highest signing bonus and most guaranteed money avg per year of a 4-3 DE.
The Giants are just not in any difficulty with the cap. Â
According to Over The Cap and most other sources, they are between 30 and 35 million under the cap now, with more to be added by the league. The have not renegotiated a single contract. In the next few years the cap is supposed to be significantly raised by the league.
They only have two significant free agents they want to re-sign: very expensive JPP and moderately expensive Hankins. Although we like Hankins, as someone pointed out about a week ago, the Giants don't seem to put a lot of value on the "1 technique" DT position, having not brought back Cornelius Griffin and William Josephs, one and two round draft picks.
Instead of being obsessed by the cap, just worry about winning before Eli's time is up and we get more cap relief from that.
If you don't bring back JPP, you're not just losing his numbers, you're crippling Vernon. Vernon started off very slowly with only one sack in the first seven games through the LA game. Then in the next five games, seven sacks. One sack, one, one, two, two sacks in the Steeler game. JPP was getting his five and a half sacks and two forced fumbles, against two of the weak teams, admittedly.
How many sacks for Vernon in his last five games, including the Packers, all played without JPP. One half sack.
You can't argue with those numbers. What ever happened to "You can't have two many pass rushers?"
RE: RE: I'd suspect 5 years and at least $40M guaranteed Â
I don't think you can look at their value in a vacuum.
Giants paid JPP $10 mil last year, correct? If it takes $5 mil extra to keep the ends together this next year, you do it.
I'd rather resign JPP and let Hankins walk (while replacing him with Paea if possible) than let JPP go and resign Hankins while adding another FA DE. He is by far the best DE on the market.
Please prepare yourselves for JPP to get a Vernonesque Â
deal. $20m in guarantees isn't gonna cut it. If the Giants won't pay that(maybe they can negotiate slightly less than Vernon) they will tag him and JPP will throw a hissy fit. JPP understands the business aspect and almost saw his career disappear. His people are well aware that there are 10 teams with over $70m in space and the league average is like $50m under. A $15m hit to them won't make a dent. The market is what teams are willing to spend and we saw what happened last year.
RE: The Giants are just not in any difficulty with the cap. Â
According to Over The Cap and most other sources, they are between 30 and 35 million under the cap now, with more to be added by the league. The have not renegotiated a single contract. In the next few years the cap is supposed to be significantly raised by the league.
You are correct that they're not in any cap difficulty. The issue is that the market is competitive. Plenty of teams have more space than they do.
Should not get the tag listen if they have a number and he has a number beyond these then let him test the waters. If we tag him we gain nothing because it handcuffs us from improving the team. JPP is a good player but he will never be the great player we all hoped for that's the reality of his career. Why pay a good player great player money who we have seen can't make the next step into greatness. Hankins will sign for much less one position solved sure loosing JPP is not the best thing for the team but we always make tough choices in life.
Pierre-Paul proved this past season that he’s worth a lucrative investment. Even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams), he produced consistent pressure off the edge and re-established himself as an effective run defender. He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers, but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
So . . he's worth a lucrative contract -- even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams).
And even IF he produced consistent pressure off the edge . . . (which I think is debatable)
. . . and re-established himself as an effective run defender . . . (True, and a nice plus when you get it, but that's NOT why you pay a DE big money -- they get that for pass rushing).
. . . He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers . . . (Agreed. He's not a guy who's going to dominate a game by himself anymore. I don't recall him being consistently double-teamed.) . . . but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
Huh???
How the hell can he be "Not among the best," and yet "a force" ?? How do those two ideas mesh in the same sentence? He was handled fairly easily in many games. And then there are the games he misses to injury every season.
Raanan's synopsis SHOULD read: JPP is a very good, but not great DE, who wants "great DE" money. And the Giants will likely pay it because there are no better alternatives.
I'd be happy to see JPP back, BUT even for the right deal or on the Franchise tag, he'll likely be being overpaid for the production he seems capable of at this point in his career. That's fine -- sometimes you have to over pay -- but it does NOT address a pass rush that didn't get there enough last season even when JPP played.
The Giants will likely STILL need another good pass rusher they can throw into the mix with OV and JPP on passing downs before the pass rush is truly a game-changer the way it was in the Strahan/Tuck/Osi days. Vernon and JPP alone were NOT enough. They don't let you play Cleveland every week.
Pierre-Paul proved this past season that he’s worth a lucrative investment. Even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams), he produced consistent pressure off the edge and re-established himself as an effective run defender. He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers, but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
So . . he's worth a lucrative contract -- even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams).
And even IF he produced consistent pressure off the edge . . . (which I think is debatable)
. . . and re-established himself as an effective run defender . . . (True, and a nice plus when you get it, but that's NOT why you pay a DE big money -- they get that for pass rushing).
. . . He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers . . . (Agreed. He's not a guy who's going to dominate a game by himself anymore. I don't recall him being consistently double-teamed.) . . . but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
Huh???
How the hell can he be "Not among the best," and yet "a force" ?? How do those two ideas mesh in the same sentence? He was handled fairly easily in many games. And then there are the games he misses to injury every season.
Raanan's synopsis SHOULD read: JPP is a very good, but not great DE, who wants "great DE" money. And the Giants will likely pay it because there are no better alternatives.
I'd be happy to see JPP back, BUT even for the right deal or on the Franchise tag, he'll likely be being overpaid for the production he seems capable of at this point in his career. That's fine -- sometimes you have to over pay -- but it does NOT address a pass rush that didn't get there enough last season even when JPP played.
The Giants will likely STILL need another good pass rusher they can throw into the mix with OV and JPP on passing downs before the pass rush is truly a game-changer the way it was in the Strahan/Tuck/Osi days. Vernon and JPP alone were NOT enough. They don't let you play Cleveland every week.
Totally disagree, David. JPP is still best defensive player on this team (although Collins is coming on). The BS about the bears and browns in just that. JPP was getting better as the season wore on. The week before his injury he was the defensive player of the week. He's a top 10 DE and if you don't pay him as such the team will not be as good next year.
Way too many posts on here guessing deal terms when Â
Doesn't mean that much. You wouldn't determine the selling price of a house by taking the average price from the first 5 offers. Whoever bid the highest would get the house and the value of bids 2-5 wouldn't matter.
My first thought was along these lines as well. But it wasn't an average of the top bids of perspective buyers; it was an average of the guesses of what the top bid would be. There's more logic to using the average in this than in your example.
Still, it's only 5 individuals, and I wonder how they are chosen. Wouldn't the agents have motivation to go high in their valuation? And it seems the team executive would also have motivation to go high if his team isn't in the market or low if it is.
RE: Way too many posts on here guessing deal terms when Â
how the loss of JPP in the last 5 games affected Vernon.
Vernon, despite a very slow start with only a half sack in the first seven games, caught fire in the next five games with seven sacks in the five game stretch from Philly to Steelers. In the last five games including the Pacers, without JPP, Vernon managed only one half sack.
This shouldn't be surprising since the offense can only double team one DE, and that DE was most often JPP.
I completely disagree with the idea that the franchise can be improved by stealing from the defense to give to the offense. The defense creates turnovers which can lead to quick scores by the offense and the defense establishes field position so that the offense has a shorter field and is not dangerously near its own goal line.
1. JPP signs a long term deal. Hankins is not re-signed. Keenan Robinson returns. NYG signs 1 FA OL, let's say Whitworth. Giants sign Stephan Paea as a 3 Tech DT one year deal.
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
What scenario would you choose?
Option 3 IMO is an example of what we could do in FA if we let JPP walk.
I could live with option 3, who is the DE Taylor
you mention though?
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
This place is going to go crazy over the next two to three weeks. Where is hitdog and the gang?
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
Quote:
a Veron like contract --
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Quote:
Projected contract: 4 years, $59 million, $21 million guaranteed
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
that's what I'm projecting -- at 13, 16 and 17 in the first three years that's 15.33 million a year - i don't care what they say year 4 or even 5 is -- that money contractually will be like option money because guarantees will be mostly all used up by then
No one is guaranteeing a man with 7 and a half fingers 40 million dollars.
Dan in the Springs : 1/10/2017 9:31 am : link
I offer him 4 yrs $60MM with $32MM guaranteed. I tell him that if he doesn't sign it we are prepared to use the franchise tag again. I remind that anything can happen when you pass up millions guaranteed - nobody knows this better than JPP. I remind him of the value of retiring a NY hero, and tell him he can position the signing as taking less than market value out of love for the organization and its fans. He will have a lifetime of marketing opportunities in the NY area.
I think given time he'd sign the contract. JPP may not be what he once was, but over the next four years he's still going to be a force to reckon with in this league. If he gets lazy or too inconsistent, or if the play of Okwara/others is good enough to make him expendable, they should be able to cut him after two years without too much pain.
Sticking with this prediction and hoping it works out. - ( New Window )
I would be shocked if JPP ends up signing a contract with only $20 million guaranteed.
Base a JPP contract on the Vernon contract as a starting point. Five years.
Looking at the Vernon contract, I can see discounting the compensation numbers a bit based on age and injury history, and still coming in at around $30 million "initially guaranteed" and $40 million "guaranteed".
You do this by dropping the signing bonus from $20 million to $15 million and dropping the year 1 roster bonus from $7 million to $5 million.
Discounting the Vernon salary by about 15% (which might be too steep), the "initially guaranteed" number comes in at about $32 million.
As Year 3 becomes "guaranteed", JPP's total guaranteed money would come in at a bit over $42 million. It's pretty close to "Vernon money", which is what he wants.
This would put JPP's cap number at about $10 million in year one (the Giants can do this, I believe).
After Year 1, JPP's cap hit would be in the $13 to $15 million range.
Just take the data in the link. Use it as a basis for JPP's contract, and hit the bonuses and salaries with some percentage that you think makes sense.
Vernon's Contract - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 13365710 gidiefor said:
Quote:
a Veron like contract --
by the way if you front load the vernon contract bonus mostly into the first three years -- it's really a three year deal - and I believe the base salaries as i remember were
13 million, 16, million 17 million
then in years 4 &5 he's nearly 20 million / year
he got a 20 million signing bonus and 52 million in total guarantees
that leaves 6 million in guarantees after year three
???? how did you get that out of that article.
Quote:
Projected contract: 4 years, $59 million, $21 million guaranteed
Note: The projected contract was derived from the average of five league sources surveyed. The panel consists of a front office executive, salary-cap experts and agents.)
So they are off, and he is getting more than that? 4 for 60 has been the word all offseason.
that's what I'm projecting -- at 13, 16 and 17 in the first three years that's 15.33 million a year - i don't care what they say year 4 or even 5 is -- that money contractually will be like option money because guarantees will be mostly all used up by then
my guess.. Four years 60 million, 25 million gtd. 10 million this year, 15 million next year. 3rd year option for 15 million, 4th year option for 20 million. Hopefully before March 9th. But I expect the tag will be used in order to keep JPP off the market and aiming for that OV deal from anyone, because no one is giving him that deal and giving up first rounder's, and he wont get that deal next year if he sits out or plays it safe on the field for us in 2017. So he will sign what he can while he can and 4 for 60 is what is fair.
that's the most important part of the deal, and most looks at is the price per year.
a 21 mil mildly backloaded contract is all anyone can realistically expect.
you build it in that that there will be a significant dead money hit at the end of the deal, but you have him for 2 or 3 years.
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
What scenario would you choose?
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
What scenario would you choose?
Option 3 IMO is an example of what we could do in FA if we let JPP walk.
JPP tier is the top signing we will do. Is there anyone else in FA worthy of his dollars?
we can sign JPP, Hankins, and KRob. or we can swap one out for a new acquisition. JPP is the equivalent of 2 signings.
If he hits the open market this year JPP will probably go to the highest bidder and my guess is that it will be more than $15 mill. per year. (It only takes one team with a lot of cap room to overpay and there are a number of teams that have a lot of cap room.)
So, how do we replace JPP, I would expect through the draft.
Would be happy to have JPP back, but anything north or 13-14 mil per year and it's to much. The franchise tag is way to much against the cap
So, how do we replace JPP, I would expect through the draft.
Would be happy to have JPP back, but anything north or 13-14 mil per year and it's to much. The franchise tag is way to much against the cap
What OL is available that would stop you from paying JPP. NONE! and its not even close, top tier LT's are as rare as they ever have been in this Free Agency and this Draft. Pay your star player, don't lose him in order to gamble on has been/washed up vet OT's.
Pittsburgh isn't going to let Bell go. He would be worth "saving" cap money for, but it ain't going to happen!
I think the Giants can get JPP, Hankins, and Keenan Robinson done for about a $18 to $22 million cap hit in year one, assuming the market doesn't go crazy with a number of teams having huge cap space.
That would leave about $10 to $15 million for other free agents. I'm assuming we will end up with about $35 million in free space.
Once he turns down the Giants offer I can't understand the risk of tagging him. He can bitch, moan, refuse to play, whatever. At the end of the day if they can't sign him long term they should tag him to squeeze one more year out or trade him. And if you honestly think A 28 year old NFL player can refuse to play or play poorly while under the tag then reap a massive reward next offseason... I have many bridges to sell you. Quitting on his team worked for Haynesworth - after he got paid, not before.
Letting JPP hit free agency is one of if not the worst outcome.
It would be a fuck up if you don't at least non-exclusive tag him to prevent him from getting that kind of money without getting a draft pick in exchange.
Pittsburgh isn't going to let Bell go. He would be worth "saving" cap money for, but it ain't going to happen!
I think the Giants can get JPP, Hankins, and Keenan Robinson done for about a $18 to $22 million cap hit in year one, assuming the market doesn't go crazy with a number of teams having huge cap space.
That would leave about $10 to $15 million for other free agents. I'm assuming we will end up with about $35 million in free space.
We have $35 million in cap space now. We can still cut JT Thomas and save $3 million, extending Pugh can save another $3 million against this year's cap. Trading or cutting DRC saves $5 million. We will have more than $40 million, maybe close to $50 million. Jerry Reese will find a way.
The Giants will probably be north of $35 million free, subtracting out dollars for draftees, I'm going to assume $35 million available for free agents.
Quote:
Could really help build a strong OL.
So, how do we replace JPP, I would expect through the draft.
Would be happy to have JPP back, but anything north or 13-14 mil per year and it's to much. The franchise tag is way to much against the cap
What OL is available that would stop you from paying JPP. NONE! and its not even close, top tier LT's are as rare as they ever have been in this Free Agency and this Draft. Pay your star player, don't lose him in order to gamble on has been/washed up vet OT's.
I'd start with Zietler, and add from there. Can probably add 3 on the OL for what JPP will cost
1. By shedding him we get 5 mil
2. He has trade value.
3. He is hurt when needed most.
No one is cutting DRC but all trade offers for him should be heard.
You give JPP 4-62 with a 24M signing bonus and guarantee him 44M and he then has both the highest signing bonus and most guaranteed money avg per year of a 4-3 DE.
They only have two significant free agents they want to re-sign: very expensive JPP and moderately expensive Hankins. Although we like Hankins, as someone pointed out about a week ago, the Giants don't seem to put a lot of value on the "1 technique" DT position, having not brought back Cornelius Griffin and William Josephs, one and two round draft picks.
Instead of being obsessed by the cap, just worry about winning before Eli's time is up and we get more cap relief from that.
If you don't bring back JPP, you're not just losing his numbers, you're crippling Vernon. Vernon started off very slowly with only one sack in the first seven games through the LA game. Then in the next five games, seven sacks. One sack, one, one, two, two sacks in the Steeler game. JPP was getting his five and a half sacks and two forced fumbles, against two of the weak teams, admittedly.
How many sacks for Vernon in his last five games, including the Packers, all played without JPP. One half sack.
You can't argue with those numbers. What ever happened to "You can't have two many pass rushers?"
Quote:
is needed to get a deal done.
No one is guaranteeing a man with 7 and a half fingers 40 million dollars.
Giants paid JPP $10 mil last year, correct? If it takes $5 mil extra to keep the ends together this next year, you do it.
I'd rather resign JPP and let Hankins walk (while replacing him with Paea if possible) than let JPP go and resign Hankins while adding another FA DE. He is by far the best DE on the market.
You are correct that they're not in any cap difficulty. The issue is that the market is competitive. Plenty of teams have more space than they do.
Pierre-Paul proved this past season that he’s worth a lucrative investment. Even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams), he produced consistent pressure off the edge and re-established himself as an effective run defender. He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers, but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
So . . he's worth a lucrative contract -- even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams).
And even IF he produced consistent pressure off the edge . . . (which I think is debatable)
. . . and re-established himself as an effective run defender . . . (True, and a nice plus when you get it, but that's NOT why you pay a DE big money -- they get that for pass rushing).
. . . He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers . . . (Agreed. He's not a guy who's going to dominate a game by himself anymore. I don't recall him being consistently double-teamed.) . . . but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
Huh???
How the hell can he be "Not among the best," and yet "a force" ?? How do those two ideas mesh in the same sentence? He was handled fairly easily in many games. And then there are the games he misses to injury every season.
Raanan's synopsis SHOULD read: JPP is a very good, but not great DE, who wants "great DE" money. And the Giants will likely pay it because there are no better alternatives.
I'd be happy to see JPP back, BUT even for the right deal or on the Franchise tag, he'll likely be being overpaid for the production he seems capable of at this point in his career. That's fine -- sometimes you have to over pay -- but it does NOT address a pass rush that didn't get there enough last season even when JPP played.
The Giants will likely STILL need another good pass rusher they can throw into the mix with OV and JPP on passing downs before the pass rush is truly a game-changer the way it was in the Strahan/Tuck/Osi days. Vernon and JPP alone were NOT enough. They don't let you play Cleveland every week.
Quote:
Pierre-Paul proved this past season that he’s worth a lucrative investment. Even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams), he produced consistent pressure off the edge and re-established himself as an effective run defender. He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers, but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
So . . he's worth a lucrative contract -- even though a good chunk of his sacks came against the Browns and Bears (two bad teams).
And even IF he produced consistent pressure off the edge . . . (which I think is debatable)
. . . and re-established himself as an effective run defender . . . (True, and a nice plus when you get it, but that's NOT why you pay a DE big money -- they get that for pass rushing).
. . . He’s not among the league’s best pass-rushers . . . (Agreed. He's not a guy who's going to dominate a game by himself anymore. I don't recall him being consistently double-teamed.) . . . but he’s still a force to be reckoned with each week for opposing offenses.
Huh???
How the hell can he be "Not among the best," and yet "a force" ?? How do those two ideas mesh in the same sentence? He was handled fairly easily in many games. And then there are the games he misses to injury every season.
Raanan's synopsis SHOULD read: JPP is a very good, but not great DE, who wants "great DE" money. And the Giants will likely pay it because there are no better alternatives.
I'd be happy to see JPP back, BUT even for the right deal or on the Franchise tag, he'll likely be being overpaid for the production he seems capable of at this point in his career. That's fine -- sometimes you have to over pay -- but it does NOT address a pass rush that didn't get there enough last season even when JPP played.
The Giants will likely STILL need another good pass rusher they can throw into the mix with OV and JPP on passing downs before the pass rush is truly a game-changer the way it was in the Strahan/Tuck/Osi days. Vernon and JPP alone were NOT enough. They don't let you play Cleveland every week.
Totally disagree, David. JPP is still best defensive player on this team (although Collins is coming on). The BS about the bears and browns in just that. JPP was getting better as the season wore on. The week before his injury he was the defensive player of the week. He's a top 10 DE and if you don't pay him as such the team will not be as good next year.
If Giants want him then that's the cost or they FT him.
Why is there more to discuss?
My first thought was along these lines as well. But it wasn't an average of the top bids of perspective buyers; it was an average of the guesses of what the top bid would be. There's more logic to using the average in this than in your example.
Still, it's only 5 individuals, and I wonder how they are chosen. Wouldn't the agents have motivation to go high in their valuation? And it seems the team executive would also have motivation to go high if his team isn't in the market or low if it is.
If Giants want him then that's the cost or they FT him.
Why is there more to discuss?
How much you want to bet he doesn't get more than 75 million total and 40 million guaranteed, he wont come close to Vernon's 52 million guaranteed.
Vernon, despite a very slow start with only a half sack in the first seven games, caught fire in the next five games with seven sacks in the five game stretch from Philly to Steelers. In the last five games including the Pacers, without JPP, Vernon managed only one half sack.
This shouldn't be surprising since the offense can only double team one DE, and that DE was most often JPP.
I completely disagree with the idea that the franchise can be improved by stealing from the defense to give to the offense. The defense creates turnovers which can lead to quick scores by the offense and the defense establishes field position so that the offense has a shorter field and is not dangerously near its own goal line.
Quote:
1. JPP signs a long term deal. Hankins is not re-signed. Keenan Robinson returns. NYG signs 1 FA OL, let's say Whitworth. Giants sign Stephan Paea as a 3 Tech DT one year deal.
2. JPP franchised, Hankins returns on long term deal, Giants sign a OG let's say Larry Warford to long term deal. Flowers stays at LT.
3. JPP walks, Hankins, Robinson return for multi year deals, NYG signs DE Taylor, OT Reiff and OG Zietler, WR Aiken.
My thought behind these scenarios is, we can't do it all with FA but have immediate needs. I love JPP and want him back but we have to fix the O Line and the strength of FA is in the OG position. Many good ones and I think the best fit long term for an OT is Reiff. He is versatile.
What scenario would you choose?
Option 3 IMO is an example of what we could do in FA if we let JPP walk.
I could live with option 3, who is the DE Taylor
you mention though?