At what though? I mean other than getting his shot. It sure doesn't seem like he makes anyone around him better, so why keep him? We're already stuck with one usage-heavy offense only player.
If he's better it isnt by much. Rose is a better scorer than Rubio, and worse at just about every other aspect of the game. So if you're going to do a statistical comp is't gonna be based on all-in advanced ratings. And while Rose beats Rubio in PER, Rubio beats Rose in BBR's WS48, BPM, VORP, and ESPN's RPM and Wins. Rose's PER lead is slight, whereas Rubio's lead in the other advanced ratings is pretty substantial.
Im pretty down on Rose, but havent seen enough Rubio this year to compare the two. I do believe that you have Rose-colored glasses here (sorry, that was terrible), as a Bulls fan. He isnt the same player he used to be, as you'll admit, but the problem is that a diminished Rose is a whole different animal -- 80% of Derrick Rose isnt worth 4/5 of the old Rose. It's worth a lot less.
If he's better it isnt by much. Rose is a better scorer than Rubio, and worse at just about every other aspect of the game. So if you're going to do a statistical comp is't gonna be based on all-in advanced ratings. And while Rose beats Rubio in PER, Rubio beats Rose in BBR's WS48, BPM, VORP, and ESPN's RPM and Wins. Rose's PER lead is slight, whereas Rubio's lead in the other advanced ratings is pretty substantial.
Im pretty down on Rose, but havent seen enough Rubio this year to compare the two. I do believe that you have Rose-colored glasses here (sorry, that was terrible), as a Bulls fan. He isnt the same player he used to be, as you'll admit, but the problem is that a diminished Rose is a whole different animal -- 80% of Derrick Rose isnt worth 4/5 of the old Rose. It's worth a lot less.
Rubio is a better passer and better defender, I suppose (his defense is vastly overrated). They are similar rebounders, and rose is slighty better from the line. However, no one respects Rubio's offensive game. And if Melo is still with the Knicks, Rubio's assists will decrease due to the fact Melo is a ball stopper on offense.
If Melo is gone, Rubio is a much better fit, but he has never made his team a better team with him on the floor.
more than most believe here. Assist totals are skeewed when guys arent making shots.
Put your thumb on the scale for Rose like that and you have to do it for every point guard. Rubio's teammates are all knock down shooters?
I watch the games. Rose does a terrible job setting up his teammates as compared to most any other notable starting PG. The problem is not his teammates missing shots. Rose is not a 4 assist PG because of the Knicks shooting. Knicks are league average from 3, and while way below average from 2, due to 2FGA NY is actually top 10 in 2s made). Further, I'd argue that there is a chicken and egg issue -- his teammates dont hit shots in part because their PG doesnt set them up well.
more than most believe here. Assist totals are skeewed when guys arent making shots.
Put your thumb on the scale for Rose like that and you have to do it for every point guard. Rubio's teammates are all knock down shooters?
I watch the games. Rose does a terrible job setting up his teammates as compared to most any other notable starting PG. The problem is not his teammates missing shots. Rose is not a 4 assist PG because of the Knicks shooting. Knicks are league average from 3, and while way below average from 2, due to 2FGA NY is actually top 10 in 2s made). Further, I'd argue that there is a chicken and egg issue -- his teammates dont hit shots in part because their PG doesnt set them up well.
Rose doesnt have the ball the most on the Knicks. Plus, Rose doesnt have the luxury of a finishing big either that many PGs do.
with Rubio would get KP about 3 easy buckets a game that he doesnt get with Rose.
KP doesnt roll to the basket on pick and rolls. So again, if he is making jumpers - assist totals go up. No one is going to play rubio whatsoever on offense and passing lanes will be shut down.
Rose doesnt have the ball the most on the Knicks. Plus, Rose doesnt have the luxury of a finishing big either that many PGs do.
No, Rose leads the Knicks in touches at 78.1 per game. Jennings, KP, and Melo are all in the at 60 +/- 2. Rubio has 79.8.
You have a lot of excuses for why Rose gets so few assists. But again, I watch most Knicks games. The reason Rose gets very few assists is that he plays to get his own shot. So when he makes passes it's usually either a bail out of a drive (rather than a purposeful drive and kick) or one of those anodyne light passes at the 3 point arc that accomplish nothing (everyone does these).
Really, I have a hard time closing my eyes and picturing Rose purposefully driving to suck in the help defender and then make the pass to the newly open teammate. Some of that isnt his fault -- Noah is a bad match for Rose's game offensively. But Rose is a 4 assist PG because Rose doesnt not attempt to involve his teammates. It really isnt arguable.
obviously Melo will/should have a lower assist percentage.
So what is your point, big picture? That Rose is a good, willing distributor? The 4 assists per game is a mirage? It's all Melo's fault?
It's ridiculous. Im sorry that it offends your Rose fandom, but the guy is a bad PG. Good scorer, but a bad PG.
So a guy who has the ball the most, shouldnt have the most assists? So basically what I showed that Melo has the ball the most, passes it the least, and his scoring isnt based off passes (only 30% of his buckets are assisted). How can an offense flow with a player like that?
Ill say this again. Melo is a ball stopper. He always has been and always will be and the stats prove it. I never once said Rose is a great passer, but his assists are affected by Melo's play. And its funny how you call melo a scoring foward. Well Rose is a SCORING guard. You can label him anything you want, but he can score.
You can call me a rose boy all you want, but its clear as day that you have a hard-on for Melo just as bad, if not worse.
I think he's a much better player than Rose. His game is his game. He's a shitty defender even though he is capable of being better. He isnt a great passer.
I dont make excuses for Melo like you make for Rose. I think Melo would be a better passer and more efficient scorer if he was on a loaded team, and I think he might play better defense at times under those same conditions. I wouldnt guarantee any of that though.
Everything with Rose from you is some excuse for him. None of his bad stats have anything to do with him. His bad defense is scheme. We get it. Basically no one else here agrees with you, and a lot of use are watching a lot of Knicks games.
but most Knicks fans want Rose AND Melo off the team in the next 72 hours, assuming we don't just give Melo away for nothing. There's no need to bash Melo to prop up Rose in the eyes of Knicks fans - we can't stand either of them.
I think he's a much better player than Rose. His game is his game. He's a shitty defender even though he is capable of being better. He isnt a great passer.
I dont make excuses for Melo like you make for Rose. I think Melo would be a better passer and more efficient scorer if he was on a loaded team, and I think he might play better defense at times under those same conditions. I wouldnt guarantee any of that though.
Everything with Rose from you is some excuse for him. None of his bad stats have anything to do with him. His bad defense is scheme. We get it. Basically no one else here agrees with you, and a lot of use are watching a lot of Knicks games.
Ive said Rose isnt the best passer or defender. But carry on....
You defend Melo more than anyone. He is a team killer. What teammate in his career has he made better?
You defend Melo more than anyone. He is a team killer. What teammate in his career has he made better?
I defend Melo in the sense that I think people focus too much on the bad parts of his game in comparison to the good parts. Calling Melo is team killer is so ridiculous.
Difference with me/Melo and you/Rose is that I dont blame teammates for Melo's issues as a player. Basically, I think Melo was overrated early in his career, and was never a top 10 player, and so the people bitching about him like he isnt a top 10 player are missing the point. You make every excuse in the book for Melo.
As for the "make a teammate better" argument, I actually mostly reject it. Kyrie and Love arent better playing with LeBron. Maybe at times they dial it in more, but that's probably because they're playing more meaningful games. I have been very critical of Melo's defense in particular setting the tone for his teammates. It's the reason I dont think he's ever been a top 10 guy.
Rose's assists would rise if Melo wasnt on the team? I strongly disagree. Very strongly.
I think I know rose's weakness far more than anyone here. I have watched him play hundreds of more times than anyone. He has a lot of weaknesses and he will never be a true passing point guard. However, the notion that he doesnt look for his teammates and just wants his is just flatly inaccurate.
take Melo off the Knicks and I think Rose and KP are drawing a ton more attention, everyone is materially less open, and shooting percentages go down. I think Rose would be worse off without Melo, as a distributor. It's not a close call IMO.
take Melo off the Knicks and I think Rose and KP are drawing a ton more attention, everyone is materially less open, and shooting percentages go down. I think Rose would be worse off without Melo, as a distributor. It's not a close call IMO.
KP would get more shots, and the Knicks would run much more screen and rolls - thus upping the averages of both KP in scoring and Rose in assists.
you explanation for why Rose's #s are relatively unchanged makes no sense.
As for KP getting more shots, the data is that almost every player gets less efficient with more shots. From NYT:
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We normally expect a flat to negative relationship between these two variables: Players with a small burden are more selective and tend to be “sharpshooters” taking wide-open threes and such, while high-volume shooters have to do the dirty work of taking shots that aren’t open and aren’t easy but are better than nothing. Incidentally, this is one reason why some great players with heavy shooting burdens may appear less valuable than they are: If they’re forced to take all the bad shots, they could be doing better on those than average but still have low efficiency.
We normally expect a flat to negative relationship between these two variables: Players with a small burden are more selective and tend to be “sharpshooters” taking wide-open threes and such, while high-volume shooters have to do the dirty work of taking shots that aren’t open and aren’t easy but are better than nothing. Incidentally, this is one reason why some great players with heavy shooting burdens may appear less valuable than they are: If they’re forced to take all the bad shots, they could be doing better on those than average but still have low efficiency.
With Curry, we have no such problem:
Link - ( New Window )
I never said efficiecny. Porz scoring would increase with more shots. The more shots you take, the less efficient you are (see Westbrook this year)... but without Melo, there is no doubt Porz would be scoring more per game. And being that a lot of his buckets come off passes (66%!), a guy like rose will get more assists per game.
you explanation for why Rose's #s are relatively unchanged makes no sense.
No it makes perfect sense when you realize that Butler was the primary play maker in Chicago last year. The offense ran through him, not Rose.
... because Rose is a shitty playmaker for his position, which is expected to be the primary playmaking position. It's not like Butler is Lebron out there.
was and is a better player than Rose. You're right, he not Lebron. But he is an All-NBA player who is one of the best 2 way players in the league.
The question is why the knicks running the offense through Melo then? He is not a good passer, and he is an unwilling passer and the ball clearly stops when he has the ball with his low ass% of his FGs?
its your best player, or the guy who has the ball the most when the ball is in a half court set.
Rose is a scoring guard. Has been all year. Hell, he isnt even the PG for the entire time he is in the game. He plays somewhere close to 10-12 minutes with jennings at the point.
Bryan Doo (Celtics strength and conditioning coach) is a good family friend, used to work out my little brothers and some of their teammates who went to St Marks in Southboro, MA. Anyway, my dad still keeps in touch and sent Doo a text about Melo to which Doo replied "not sure yet, ownership/management torn on him" So, little info there but seems at least they are somewhat seriously thinking about Melo
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In comment 13366271 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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I'd like to see that. Rose has no place here.
Rose's play?
Rose is better than Rubio, by a country mile.
This is true talent wise, but it's hard to say what Rose does to help his teammates get shots. He's not a facilitator at all. And that defense...
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In comment 13366271 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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I'd like to see that. Rose has no place here.
Rose's play?
Rose is better than Rubio, by a country mile.
At what though? I mean other than getting his shot. It sure doesn't seem like he makes anyone around him better, so why keep him? We're already stuck with one usage-heavy offense only player.
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In comment 13366271 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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I'd like to see that. Rose has no place here.
Rose's play?
Rose is better than Rubio, by a country mile.
If he's better it isnt by much. Rose is a better scorer than Rubio, and worse at just about every other aspect of the game. So if you're going to do a statistical comp is't gonna be based on all-in advanced ratings. And while Rose beats Rubio in PER, Rubio beats Rose in BBR's WS48, BPM, VORP, and ESPN's RPM and Wins. Rose's PER lead is slight, whereas Rubio's lead in the other advanced ratings is pretty substantial.
Im pretty down on Rose, but havent seen enough Rubio this year to compare the two. I do believe that you have Rose-colored glasses here (sorry, that was terrible), as a Bulls fan. He isnt the same player he used to be, as you'll admit, but the problem is that a diminished Rose is a whole different animal -- 80% of Derrick Rose isnt worth 4/5 of the old Rose. It's worth a lot less.
If he's better it isnt by much. Rose is a better scorer than Rubio, and worse at just about every other aspect of the game. So if you're going to do a statistical comp is't gonna be based on all-in advanced ratings. And while Rose beats Rubio in PER, Rubio beats Rose in BBR's WS48, BPM, VORP, and ESPN's RPM and Wins. Rose's PER lead is slight, whereas Rubio's lead in the other advanced ratings is pretty substantial.
Im pretty down on Rose, but havent seen enough Rubio this year to compare the two. I do believe that you have Rose-colored glasses here (sorry, that was terrible), as a Bulls fan. He isnt the same player he used to be, as you'll admit, but the problem is that a diminished Rose is a whole different animal -- 80% of Derrick Rose isnt worth 4/5 of the old Rose. It's worth a lot less.
Rubio is a better passer and better defender, I suppose (his defense is vastly overrated). They are similar rebounders, and rose is slighty better from the line. However, no one respects Rubio's offensive game. And if Melo is still with the Knicks, Rubio's assists will decrease due to the fact Melo is a ball stopper on offense.
If Melo is gone, Rubio is a much better fit, but he has never made his team a better team with him on the floor.
Put your thumb on the scale for Rose like that and you have to do it for every point guard. Rubio's teammates are all knock down shooters?
I watch the games. Rose does a terrible job setting up his teammates as compared to most any other notable starting PG. The problem is not his teammates missing shots. Rose is not a 4 assist PG because of the Knicks shooting. Knicks are league average from 3, and while way below average from 2, due to 2FGA NY is actually top 10 in 2s made). Further, I'd argue that there is a chicken and egg issue -- his teammates dont hit shots in part because their PG doesnt set them up well.
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more than most believe here. Assist totals are skeewed when guys arent making shots.
Put your thumb on the scale for Rose like that and you have to do it for every point guard. Rubio's teammates are all knock down shooters?
I watch the games. Rose does a terrible job setting up his teammates as compared to most any other notable starting PG. The problem is not his teammates missing shots. Rose is not a 4 assist PG because of the Knicks shooting. Knicks are league average from 3, and while way below average from 2, due to 2FGA NY is actually top 10 in 2s made). Further, I'd argue that there is a chicken and egg issue -- his teammates dont hit shots in part because their PG doesnt set them up well.
Rose doesnt have the ball the most on the Knicks. Plus, Rose doesnt have the luxury of a finishing big either that many PGs do.
KP doesnt roll to the basket on pick and rolls. So again, if he is making jumpers - assist totals go up. No one is going to play rubio whatsoever on offense and passing lanes will be shut down.
Rose doesnt have the ball the most on the Knicks. Plus, Rose doesnt have the luxury of a finishing big either that many PGs do.
No, Rose leads the Knicks in touches at 78.1 per game. Jennings, KP, and Melo are all in the at 60 +/- 2. Rubio has 79.8.
You have a lot of excuses for why Rose gets so few assists. But again, I watch most Knicks games. The reason Rose gets very few assists is that he plays to get his own shot. So when he makes passes it's usually either a bail out of a drive (rather than a purposeful drive and kick) or one of those anodyne light passes at the 3 point arc that accomplish nothing (everyone does these).
Really, I have a hard time closing my eyes and picturing Rose purposefully driving to suck in the help defender and then make the pass to the newly open teammate. Some of that isnt his fault -- Noah is a bad match for Rose's game offensively. But Rose is a 4 assist PG because Rose doesnt not attempt to involve his teammates. It really isnt arguable.
7 out of 10 Melo's baskets are unassisted. I looked at similar players from around the leage at the SF/PF position, and he is by far the worst.
Melo is a ball stopper. Always has been, always will be.
Melo - 29.6%
Rose - 26.2%
Assist%
Melo - 14.3%
Rose - 23.1%
So Melo has the ball more, yet has a much lower percentage of assisted shot.
Again, putting rubio on the Knicks with melo is still pointless.
So what is your point, big picture? That Rose is a good, willing distributor? The 4 assists per game is a mirage? It's all Melo's fault?
It's ridiculous. Im sorry that it offends your Rose fandom, but the guy is a bad PG. Good scorer, but a bad PG.
AST% 36.2
Still assisting on 1/3 of the FGs despite D's not respecting his offense at all.
So what is your point, big picture? That Rose is a good, willing distributor? The 4 assists per game is a mirage? It's all Melo's fault?
It's ridiculous. Im sorry that it offends your Rose fandom, but the guy is a bad PG. Good scorer, but a bad PG.
So a guy who has the ball the most, shouldnt have the most assists? So basically what I showed that Melo has the ball the most, passes it the least, and his scoring isnt based off passes (only 30% of his buckets are assisted). How can an offense flow with a player like that?
Ill say this again. Melo is a ball stopper. He always has been and always will be and the stats prove it. I never once said Rose is a great passer, but his assists are affected by Melo's play. And its funny how you call melo a scoring foward. Well Rose is a SCORING guard. You can label him anything you want, but he can score.
You can call me a rose boy all you want, but its clear as day that you have a hard-on for Melo just as bad, if not worse.
AST% 36.2
Still assisting on 1/3 of the FGs despite D's not respecting his offense at all.
I call that the Wiggins/Towns effect. You think Rose numbers wouldnt improve with those 2?
I dont make excuses for Melo like you make for Rose. I think Melo would be a better passer and more efficient scorer if he was on a loaded team, and I think he might play better defense at times under those same conditions. I wouldnt guarantee any of that though.
Everything with Rose from you is some excuse for him. None of his bad stats have anything to do with him. His bad defense is scheme. We get it. Basically no one else here agrees with you, and a lot of use are watching a lot of Knicks games.
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USG% 14.9
AST% 36.2
Still assisting on 1/3 of the FGs despite D's not respecting his offense at all.
I call that the Wiggins/Towns effect. You think Rose numbers wouldnt improve with those 2?
100% bullshit. This is Rubio's WORST career assist% season.
I dont make excuses for Melo like you make for Rose. I think Melo would be a better passer and more efficient scorer if he was on a loaded team, and I think he might play better defense at times under those same conditions. I wouldnt guarantee any of that though.
Everything with Rose from you is some excuse for him. None of his bad stats have anything to do with him. His bad defense is scheme. We get it. Basically no one else here agrees with you, and a lot of use are watching a lot of Knicks games.
Ive said Rose isnt the best passer or defender. But carry on....
You defend Melo more than anyone. He is a team killer. What teammate in his career has he made better?
And if Melo is a ball stopper (he is), what does that make Wiggins?
USG - 28.2%
AST - 11.6%
And if Melo is a ball stopper (he is), what does that make Wiggins?
USG - 28.2%
AST - 11.6%
a more efficient ball stopper.
You defend Melo more than anyone. He is a team killer. What teammate in his career has he made better?
I defend Melo in the sense that I think people focus too much on the bad parts of his game in comparison to the good parts. Calling Melo is team killer is so ridiculous.
Difference with me/Melo and you/Rose is that I dont blame teammates for Melo's issues as a player. Basically, I think Melo was overrated early in his career, and was never a top 10 player, and so the people bitching about him like he isnt a top 10 player are missing the point. You make every excuse in the book for Melo.
As for the "make a teammate better" argument, I actually mostly reject it. Kyrie and Love arent better playing with LeBron. Maybe at times they dial it in more, but that's probably because they're playing more meaningful games. I have been very critical of Melo's defense in particular setting the tone for his teammates. It's the reason I dont think he's ever been a top 10 guy.
I think I know rose's weakness far more than anyone here. I have watched him play hundreds of more times than anyone. He has a lot of weaknesses and he will never be a true passing point guard. However, the notion that he doesnt look for his teammates and just wants his is just flatly inaccurate.
I forget, was Melo a Bull?
I forget, was Melo a Bull?
No, they just had a much better player playing the same position who ran the offense much, much better than Melo could even dream.
KP would get more shots, and the Knicks would run much more screen and rolls - thus upping the averages of both KP in scoring and Rose in assists.
Well he has a no trade clause so it's definitely an option.
As for KP getting more shots, the data is that almost every player gets less efficient with more shots. From NYT:
With Curry, we have no such problem:
Link - ( New Window )
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how keeping Melo is an option for the Knicks. We suck with him. There's literally no downside to trading him.
Well he has a no trade clause so it's definitely an option.
Right...my point being if Melo agrees to a deal that gives a decent return to Knicks...they should take it and move on.
No it makes perfect sense when you realize that Butler was the primary play maker in Chicago last year. The offense ran through him, not Rose.
Quote:
We normally expect a flat to negative relationship between these two variables: Players with a small burden are more selective and tend to be “sharpshooters” taking wide-open threes and such, while high-volume shooters have to do the dirty work of taking shots that aren’t open and aren’t easy but are better than nothing. Incidentally, this is one reason why some great players with heavy shooting burdens may appear less valuable than they are: If they’re forced to take all the bad shots, they could be doing better on those than average but still have low efficiency.
With Curry, we have no such problem:
Link - ( New Window )
I never said efficiecny. Porz scoring would increase with more shots. The more shots you take, the less efficient you are (see Westbrook this year)... but without Melo, there is no doubt Porz would be scoring more per game. And being that a lot of his buckets come off passes (66%!), a guy like rose will get more assists per game.
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you explanation for why Rose's #s are relatively unchanged makes no sense.
No it makes perfect sense when you realize that Butler was the primary play maker in Chicago last year. The offense ran through him, not Rose.
... because Rose is a shitty playmaker for his position, which is expected to be the primary playmaking position. It's not like Butler is Lebron out there.
The question is why the knicks running the offense through Melo then? He is not a good passer, and he is an unwilling passer and the ball clearly stops when he has the ball with his low ass% of his FGs?
Rose is a scoring guard. Has been all year. Hell, he isnt even the PG for the entire time he is in the game. He plays somewhere close to 10-12 minutes with jennings at the point.