But the offense makes a Great Leap Forward (hat tip, Mao Zedong), would that really be such a bad thing? Honestly, I don't think it would be. I'm beginning to think that instead of spending a boatload of money on JPP (and/or Hankins), we'd be better off signing lower-priced replacements while we focus on upgrading our offensive line and adding a skill player or two, like a more complete TE and a better compliment at WR for Beckham and Shepard.
And, IMO, losing JPP and Hankins would be more than just a step back. I think losing those 2 without a substantial addition (via the draft?) makes this a middle of the road D, not the top 5 D we saw down the stretch last season.
even if they keep JPP they probably will look to add a pass rusher. Losing him would be a major setback.
That said, I'd like them to re-sign him to a mutually agreeable contract, but if not, we'll bring someone in and use what we have..They DON'T have to be another JPP or even to close to that..Not having him here would not be the catastrophe many here feel it would be, as long as the rest of the D performs well and we fortify that side of the ball where possible, imho..If our O improves to average or better, that will mitigate the JPP loss as well..
Free agency first. I do favor signing Whitworth to play LT, and some favor Reiff, but, regardless, I'd also make a play for T.J. Lang or Larry Warford. Both would be huge upgrades at RG. Add a better blocking TE (I like Dion Sims, some favor Jack Doyle) and our run game becomes more formidable. TOP improves and takes some pressure off of our defense. While I'm on the fence about adding a free agent WR, if the Giants feel that someone like Kenny Stills can be an asset, then I say go for it.
Although "you can never have enough pass-rushers," the real strength of our defense is our secondary, and as long as we remain strong there, I think we'll be okay. I'd be looking for another infusion of young talent at CB in the draft, and maybe Safety, too, depending on how things shake out. Ditto for LB.
I may be higher on Okwara than most - not so with Odighizuwa - but I think we could get by with Devin Taylor opposite OV, and of course keeping an eye out for another edge rusher in the draft. DT? I'm not sure what the market will call for at this stage of the game. It may just serve us well to re-sign Hankins, or it might be worth a shot to make a play for, say, Sylvester Williams.
Having said that, I also think the offense is poised to take a larger leap forward than the defense is set to retreat. I still don't fully understand why were so inept. Those blaming the offensive line forget we were a top 1/3 offense the year before with a line that was just as bad. This past year was a tough one to figure out.
Vernon (last 4 + playoff): 0.5 sacks
Okwara (first 12): 0 sacks
Okwara (last 4 + playoffs): 2 sacks - though many more snaps
Snacks/Hankins (first 12): 4 sacks
Snacks/Hankins (last 4 + playoffs): 2.5 sacks
JPP: 7 sacks
Total (first 12): 19 sacks
Total (last 4 + playoffs): 5 sacks
And despite missing the last 4+ games, JPP was tied for 14th in the NFL with 24 QB hurries (2 per game).
I like Okwara, but he's not coming close to JPP's production next year.
I like the idea of signing someone like Mario Williams as 3rd down pass rushing specialist.
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Are you only talking about free agency? Who are these players that you want to add to significantly improve the offense?
Free agency first. I do favor signing Whitworth to play LT, and some favor Reiff, but, regardless, I'd also make a play for T.J. Lang or Larry Warford. Both would be huge upgrades at RG. Add a better blocking TE (I like Dion Sims, some favor Jack Doyle) and our run game becomes more formidable. TOP improves and takes some pressure off of our defense. While I'm on the fence about adding a free agent WR, if the Giants feel that someone like Kenny Stills can be an asset, then I say go for it.
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And, IMO, losing JPP and Hankins would be more than just a step back. I think losing those 2 without a substantial addition (via the draft?) makes this a middle of the road D, not the top 5 D we saw down the stretch last season.
Although "you can never have enough pass-rushers," the real strength of our defense is our secondary, and as long as we remain strong there, I think we'll be okay. I'd be looking for another infusion of young talent at CB in the draft, and maybe Safety, too, depending on how things shake out. Ditto for LB.
I may be higher on Okwara than most - not so with Odighizuwa - but I think we could get by with Devin Taylor opposite OV, and of course keeping an eye out for another edge rusher in the draft. DT? I'm not sure what the market will call for at this stage of the game. It may just serve us well to re-sign Hankins, or it might be worth a shot to make a play for, say, Sylvester Williams.
I wouldn't mind signing Whitworth, but I think he ultimately stays in Cincy. While there are some interior OL that would be major upgrades (Zietler, Warford, etc), I also don't see them signing a OG to a big deal with Pugh and Richburg needing long term deals after 2017 (unless they prefer one of these guys to Pugh).
None of the other LT guys appeal to me, certainly not Kalil. I think they'll go for a cheaper guy that hasn't lived up to his draft status (Warmack/Joeckel?) for OL. At worst, they should be marginal improvements over Jerry with the potential to be good starters.
TEs - I definitely differ from the BBI majority here. Don't see anyone in FA that I'm giving a multi-year deal worth >$3M to. Maybe a vet like Fells after for $1-2M after the dust settles, but the rest of the crop looks like marginal upgrades that'll cost a decent amount (like overpaying for JTT).
I'd re-sign JPP and maybe Robinson (depends on price). Add a Warmack type guy on the OL and maybe a vet OT (or bring back Newhouse). Then look to address O needs via the draft. If Njoku (sp?) or Howard are there, I think they'd be huge additions to the offense. Also look OL, DT if Hankins isn't re-signed, DE and CB (latter 2 are always priorities) on days 1 and 2 of the draft. Day 3 look for a QB, WR, RB, and other depth that wasn't filled Days 1/2.
Note: I'm expecting (hoping) for Goodson and Thompson to provide good depth and/or improvements to the D. Thompson should push Adams for the starting FS spot and I think Goodson can step in as the MLB and replace Sheppard (bar isn't very high).
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In comment 13366378 giants#1 said:
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Are you only talking about free agency? Who are these players that you want to add to significantly improve the offense?
Free agency first. I do favor signing Whitworth to play LT, and some favor Reiff, but, regardless, I'd also make a play for T.J. Lang or Larry Warford. Both would be huge upgrades at RG. Add a better blocking TE (I like Dion Sims, some favor Jack Doyle) and our run game becomes more formidable. TOP improves and takes some pressure off of our defense. While I'm on the fence about adding a free agent WR, if the Giants feel that someone like Kenny Stills can be an asset, then I say go for it.
Quote:
And, IMO, losing JPP and Hankins would be more than just a step back. I think losing those 2 without a substantial addition (via the draft?) makes this a middle of the road D, not the top 5 D we saw down the stretch last season.
Although "you can never have enough pass-rushers," the real strength of our defense is our secondary, and as long as we remain strong there, I think we'll be okay. I'd be looking for another infusion of young talent at CB in the draft, and maybe Safety, too, depending on how things shake out. Ditto for LB.
I may be higher on Okwara than most - not so with Odighizuwa - but I think we could get by with Devin Taylor opposite OV, and of course keeping an eye out for another edge rusher in the draft. DT? I'm not sure what the market will call for at this stage of the game. It may just serve us well to re-sign Hankins, or it might be worth a shot to make a play for, say, Sylvester Williams.
I wouldn't mind signing Whitworth, but I think he ultimately stays in Cincy. While there are some interior OL that would be major upgrades (Zietler, Warford, etc), I also don't see them signing a OG to a big deal with Pugh and Richburg needing long term deals after 2017 (unless they prefer one of these guys to Pugh).
None of the other LT guys appeal to me, certainly not Kalil. I think they'll go for a cheaper guy that hasn't lived up to his draft status (Warmack/Joeckel?) for OL. At worst, they should be marginal improvements over Jerry with the potential to be good starters.
TEs - I definitely differ from the BBI majority here. Don't see anyone in FA that I'm giving a multi-year deal worth >$3M to. Maybe a vet like Fells after for $1-2M after the dust settles, but the rest of the crop looks like marginal upgrades that'll cost a decent amount (like overpaying for JTT).
I'd re-sign JPP and maybe Robinson (depends on price). Add a Warmack type guy on the OL and maybe a vet OT (or bring back Newhouse). Then look to address O needs via the draft. If Njoku (sp?) or Howard are there, I think they'd be huge additions to the offense. Also look OL, DT if Hankins isn't re-signed, DE and CB (latter 2 are always priorities) on days 1 and 2 of the draft. Day 3 look for a QB, WR, RB, and other depth that wasn't filled Days 1/2.
Note: I'm expecting (hoping) for Goodson and Thompson to provide good depth and/or improvements to the D. Thompson should push Adams for the starting FS spot and I think Goodson can step in as the MLB and replace Sheppard (bar isn't very high).
Re-signing Newhouse as versatile depth is important, imv
The D is this close to denver 2015. MAke it so. Keep the band together and draft a passrusher. Add some stop gap offensive players and let's go to battle.
Spend the money to keep this front intact. Add a pash rusher and another corner and the best offensive talent available at each pick in the draft.
Look to FA for some veteran second contract depth.
No brainer.
Then you must also like living dangerously, which is what the Giants did all year long.
As for me, I still subscribe to the old adage, "The best defense is a good offense."
Championship!!!!!
Vernon (last 4 + playoff): 0.5 sacks
Okwara (first 12): 0 sacks
Okwara (last 4 + playoffs): 2 sacks - though many more snaps
Snacks/Hankins (first 12): 4 sacks
Snacks/Hankins (last 4 + playoffs): 2.5 sacks
JPP: 7 sacks
Total (first 12): 19 sacks
Total (last 4 + playoffs): 5 sacks
And despite missing the last 4+ games, JPP was tied for 14th in the NFL with 24 QB hurries (2 per game).
I like Okwara, but he's not coming close to JPP's production next year.
Agree on Okwara. He's likely at best an ideal #3 DE, which is fine on a contending team. The issue is if JPP leaves, that elevates Okwara to starter opposite OV and the other 2 JAG DE's, Odi and Wynn, get more snaps. It also telegraphs what we are going to do at 23: draft a DE.
Just resign JPP.
Second, that letting JPP walk will force the Giants to draft a DE at #23. They might draft one there depending on how the first 22 picks shake out, but they're just as likely to go in another direction - CB, WR, OL - regardless of what happens with JPP.
Second, that letting JPP walk will force the Giants to draft a DE at #23. They might draft one there depending on how the first 22 picks shake out, but they're just as likely to go in another direction - CB, WR, OL - regardless of what happens with JPP.
If JPP walks, I guarantee the Giants are using a Day 1 or 2 draft pick on a DE. Odds of it being the #23 pick are probably 3:1 or better (in that situation).
Denver won with a shitty offense but for the most part I agree with you. I didn't say to ignore the O. I said to focus on re-signing the D and add some stop gap options to the offense. In other words, spend on quality, not quantity. And I said the exact same thing last year. Nothing worse that trading away a piece of prime rib for two cans of spam. You lose every time.
The Giants are finally in a position where they can keep their great core of players. The finally have great players. Keep them. Add some lunch pail grit to the offense. Older guys. Stop gaps. It's so perfectly staged for this kind of off-season.
Resigning JPP is a must. Defense will fall 10-12 slots back without him.
Spend the money now. When the QB is old and shot the money we save there will be sky high. IF Eli is still playing well and wants to keep playing, great. Deal with that when it comes.
Spend the money on defense. Spend a little less on old farts for the offense.
This isn't quantum entanglement, they can improve both the offense and the defense at the same time. And the salary cap is not the issue. The issue is value. The Giants have the salary cap room to add players who's value matches their cost with or without JPP under contract.
Finding players who's value matches cost is another story. That's the glitch when it comes to improving the offense, not JPP.
The D is this close to denver 2015. MAke it so. Keep the band together and draft a passrusher. Add some stop gap offensive players and let's go to battle.
This.
The Giants finally have an identity if they keep the defense together. This defense could be historically great in '17 if the draft breaks right and they stay healthy.
Add a few pieces on offense and they're a SB contender.
That said, yes, it would be bad if the defense took a step back this season because the parts are simply not available, talent-wise, to improve the offense enough to mitigate not having a great one. As it is, winning games the way they did last year (holding so many late leads in one score games, etc) might not be the most sustainable thing, but weakening their team's one strength would significantly alter even those odds and the likelihood they compete for the playoffs again. You're better off having one [close to] dominant unit and one bad one than two mediocre ones.
This defense has other weaknesses....FS.....LB....CB.....
If we can find a stud LB that can rush the passer and cover, would that help to make up for JPP? If we can find a FS, that can make plays instead of just be the last line of defense, would that help? If we can get another DB that can cover, would that help?
If a QB can't find someone open, he holds onto the ball longer, and if you can do that, this line will eventually get him.....If you can get two good defensive guys for one JPP, I'm for it....
This offense needs help.....scoring just one td, in 4 of the last 5 games of the year? And how many sustained drives did it have for a td? A lot of the TD's were quick strike....
You have to put points on the board to win....the defense won a lot of games for us last season, but the offense did not make it easy for them....a more balanced team could make this a better team....
It doesn't take away from what they accomplished in that streak. They don't have to give the trophy back if that situation was different than where they could be at now or going forward.
On offense there are tons of dirt cheap RBs, TEs, and potentially WRs who are an improvement. The offensive line isn't a cheap or easy fix no matter what the Giants do. Paying average to above average talent the salaries of ProBowlers and All Pros while losing significant defensive talent isn't a solution.
This defense has other weaknesses....FS.....LB....CB.....
If we can find a stud LB that can rush the passer and cover, would that help to make up for JPP? If we can find a FS, that can make plays instead of just be the last line of defense, would that help? If we can get another DB that can cover, would that help?
If a QB can't find someone open, he holds onto the ball longer, and if you can do that, this line will eventually get him.....If you can get two good defensive guys for one JPP, I'm for it....
This offense needs help.....scoring just one td, in 4 of the last 5 games of the year? And how many sustained drives did it have for a td? A lot of the TD's were quick strike....
You have to put points on the board to win....the defense won a lot of games for us last season, but the offense did not make it easy for them....a more balanced team could make this a better team....
In a vacuum, yea, losing JPP doesn't mean the Giants auto draft DE. But considering Reese's record and the DE talent likely to be available you can pretty much bank on a DE as the pick if JPP is gone.
FS -- Thompson will be the starter. They like him and they're not drafting a FS.
CB -- An upgrade at the 4th CB spot doesn't make this team or defense appreciably better than '16. An improved rush will. Losing JPP makes improving the rush difficult.
LB -- sure a stud LB would be nice but it's not a net gain if you have a deficiency at DE. Keep JPP and now you have the flexibility to take a guy like Jarrad Davis and it's a net gain.
WillVAB : 7:44 pm : link : reply
In a vacuum, yea, losing JPP doesn't mean the Giants auto draft DE. But considering Reese's record and the DE talent likely to be available you can pretty much bank on a DE as the pick if JPP is gone.
It really depends on "need" and what is available at 23....
FS -- Thompson will be the starter. They like him and they're not drafting a FS.
He had not one, but two injuries last year...his durability is in question....this defense was lucky to get away with an UDFA playing FS.....and we got away with it, by haveing him play soft...keep things in front of him....what if we had a play maker back there with football instincts?
CB -- An upgrade at the 4th CB spot doesn't make this team or defense appreciably better than '16. An improved rush will. Losing JPP makes improving the rush difficult.
And what happened in the GB game when DRC went down? Maybe the Hail Mary doesn't happen if he is back there....but his replacement has to be drafted, and given playing time, in case the GB scenario happens again....
LB -- sure a stud LB would be nice but it's not a net gain if you have a deficiency at DE. Keep JPP and now you have the flexibility to take a guy like Jarrad Davis and it's a net gain.
A stud LB that can cover and blitz would help to make up for the loss of JPP....
This defense had holes in the secondary...these players would eliminate them....they are an option for Reese, If we lose Hankins/JPP....
What it comes down to is, what are Reese's priorities, offense or defense? That will be determined by who we sign, who we draft, and if we get the players we actually want....
Klaatu : 4:09 pm : link : reply
Who would have ever thought that would happen?
when are we going out for a drink? And don't forget the rice pudding...
2. Thompson didn't blow out his knee. He'll be back and he'll be fine. A FS would be a wasted pick especially with the holes on offense.
3. DRC went down the 2nd play of the game. The defense didn't fall apart until mid way through the 3rd quarter. The Giants needed and still need more rush, not more coverage. You can find a 4th CB later in the draft.
JPP is a good player at a premium position. Letting good players walk when you can afford them is the recipe for perpetual mediocrity. Take a look at the Buffalo Bills and who they've let walk over the last 10+ years.
This defense played superbly without JPP and only feel down when Cromartie went out against a great QB who frustrated them.
My sense of it is: Hankins maybe key to the matchups with Dallas. Two nose guard types may not be key against the average offense but it makes sense against Dallas.
Vernon (last 4 + playoff): 0.5 sacks
Okwara (first 12): 0 sacks
Okwara (last 4 + playoffs): 2 sacks - though many more snaps
Snacks/Hankins (first 12): 4 sacks
Snacks/Hankins (last 4 + playoffs): 2.5 sacks
JPP: 7 sacks
Total (first 12): 19 sacks
Total (last 4 + playoffs): 5 sacks
And despite missing the last 4+ games, JPP was tied for 14th in the NFL with 24 QB hurries (2 per game).
I like Okwara, but he's not coming close to JPP's production next year.
Not saying Okwara is the next big thing, but can you answer this: any games that JPP missed, did you see a real dropoff in the total defense? Pass rush wasn't great to begin with including when JPP was active. Spags had some brilliant designed blitzes and guys like Collins, Kennard and Hall played into that. I don't recall the run defense getting ran over either, despite his absence
Dallas attacked the right side but in the end it was not getting them a victory.
Under the right money, I do want them to re-sign JPP but his injuries since 2012 should not be ignored. He is not what OV was going into his free agency.
Coincidence or cause and effect Vernon has one sack in the games he played in without JPP?
even if they keep JPP they probably will look to add a pass rusher. Losing him would be a major setback.
losing JPP would only be a major setback if we don't use the money saved by his leaving to greatly improve the offense
The offense should be better next year even without any major additions. Increased roles for Perkins and Adams should be a plus, as are the removal of Cruz and Jennings.
If we're picking a side of the ball to spend big money, I spend on the defense.
The offense should be better next year even without any major additions. Increased roles for Perkins and Adams should be a plus, as are the removal of Cruz and Jennings.
If we're picking a side of the ball to spend big money, I spend on the defense.
Yeah. A fourth CB would be just as good as having an All Pro DE...
Our last 15 years is living proof that a 4-3 is tough to staff but if you have a very good front 4 it works and if you don't then it's tough to get to and win playoff games. No matter who you are.
Personally, I don't think Spags is remotely the problem. Depth of the front 4 is.
We have to be able to run enough not to wear them out by seasons end or have more depth.
Remember Reese' explanation for why the 2008 team did not do better? It was not Plax. IT was worn out DL legs in the last 5 games.
I think normal year injuries and lack of depth can a tougher 2017 schedule can lead to a step back for the D. If we over react and shift too many resources to fixing the offense in one year.
Take care. Good to talk football this time of year
But my point wasn't that Spags sucks, it was more that his system is talent-centric and without all the right parts history suggests that he lacks the creativity and flexibility to make adjustments. So let's not take away any of the pieces that allowed our defense to go from the 4th worst in the history of football in 2015 to a pretty damn good one in 2016. We are going to lose players to injury anyway, let's not willingly add to the attrition.