early this morning. He has since posted several other snaps of himself working out, riding in a cab, and getting something to eat. Doesn't appear to be anything too exciting happening just yet.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
But they're not going away, and they are a part of the evaluation process by people in the business these days.
It's not like the older stats tell the whole story anyway. Things like sack count totals and quarterback rating can be as misleading as judging a pitcher by w/l record.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
He's a good player at a premium position by your own admission. The defense takes a step backwards simply letting him walk.
If he walks you can take it to the bank Reese takes a DE at 23, and no rookie DE is gonna impact like JPP.
The goal is to improve the team over '16, not try to replace lost pieces.
I do think they're being used to rationalize elite expenditures on non-elite players.
There were entire games last season where the pass rush was completely invisible. Fortunately it was the secondary that was actually elite.
As Giants fans we know what it is to have an elite pass rush, and we know what elite pass rushers look like. I think anyone that tells themselves either Vernon or JPP (2011 was a long time ago) is an elite pass rusher is kidding themselves, up to and including the GM.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
There's a reason Mack gets most of his sacks in the 2nd half of games. When you're leading, especially by muntitled scores, opposing offenses become one dimensional and DEs can go all out for the sacks. The Giants DL last year was definitely geared to stop the run first and get after the QB second (in nonobvious passing situations).
Bringing back JPP and fixing the O will get sexier sack totals for the DEs
2-way defense ends are orders of magnitude more important than pass rush specialists. Look at the number of TOLs and passes defended our ends had last year. And it's not even like the sack numbers are bad.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
There were indeed games where the pass rush struggled.
Probably the whole first half of the season. We also know that Vernon played on a broken hand and JPP really didn't start to look like himself until the year was well underway, call it health, or maybe he just wasn't fully recovered until a certain point.
I don't think either player played the year healthy, so I think it's not really a good sample to judge.
Are they elite pass rushers? No, neither one is strahan, but strahan or umenyiora in this era would be making JJ Watt money.
2-way defense ends are orders of magnitude more important than pass rush specialists. Look at the number of TOLs and passes defended our ends had last year. And it's not even like the sack numbers are bad.
This guy gets it.
Anybody eager to watch JPP walk out the door is a bloody fool. 2 way, 4-3 ends are a rare commodity these days.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
Actually the DEs were the very backbone of the defense last year. The d was good to great last year. The DL played a huge part in that. You hate JPP or at the least don't like him. You constantly underrate or disparage his impact. You also don't like signjng certain players to big bucks based on some weird voodoo logic that only you can understand. You say you want a dominant unit then question why the Giants would re-sign their elite de. But you hate that DE -- ok fine. So you want to devote the precious money remaining to the secondary and believe signing some FA CB to big money. He would be our 4th CB. And obviously you let jpp walk in this offseason of chaos of yours. That is mind numbingly foolish. Mind blowingly mad.
So we let jpp walk. Now we have count them one legit known DE on the roster in Vernon. Another undrafted guy who flashed for 1-2 games but struggled at the POA and NO one else at the position. Sign a FA? Who? We don't know. Doesn't matter it's gonna be fine because we now have 4 corners all making huge money but only 3 can play. And kiss that stout front four goodbye because we just lost okwara to a hammy... the same okwara that never ever ever logged tons of NFL starter snaps. Oh we have a rookie first rounder at DE? Hopefully he's viable. Too bad we couldn't draft a TE, RB, WR or OL in round one -- or maybe we did -- but that means the DEs are average assuming no injury. If a guy gets hurt? Like Vernon? We're done.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
Good points. Osi was horrible vs the run. There were times during Tuck's tenure when people said he was injury prone and accumulated sacks vs bad competition. Funny how nostalgia works.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Actually he's pretty damn close to that player. In 2016 The defense as a whole was better than the 2011 defense by a wide margin. I'd venture it was better than any defense other than 2008.
You're weird with paying certain players. That's it.
Let me ask you this question? You keep touting snacks and dismissing JPP. You point out Hankins as a guy we have to keep. You have beaten down JPP at every chance you get. Why do you keep praising Snacks and Hankins while devaluing Vernon and JPP? You do realize that Hankins and Snacks provide NOTHING in the pass game. But if you flip it, JPP and Vernon are excellent run defenders. So, why do you continually devalue our ends and love our DTs?
Football is a team sport. DRC was our best defender in 2015 and we sucked so he never got the respect he deserved. He was being shown the door by many. In comes a more complete defense and he is a key component to our defense. I don't care about stats. I care about wins and loses. I care about making your teammates better. I care about what I see with my own two eyes. The stats back up how valuable Vernon and JPP are but if you are so blinded by your own opinios and fixed mindset then there is no reason to have a conversation. You have hated JPP for a long time and the fireworks incident formed your fixed opinion. You fail to realize how he has changed both on and off the field. He is the leader of our defense. Sorry. I know that must really kill you.
THAy the pass rush got better and better and better as the season progressed and was actually near dominant down the stretch. The stats shows this to be true. The Giants were in the upper tier of qb hits, pressures and sacks over the last 7 weeks or so. And jpp was active for 3-4 of them.
Never mind that the D was still adjusting to Spags system. Or that the Giants don't really have a pass rushing LB on the team or much pass rush at DT and no pass rushing DE worth much behind the two starters. No the pass rush "struggled" because of the only two pass rushers on the entire fucking team!! Cmon just fucking quit this crap already.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
The Giants have historically devoted a shit load of money to the DL and notably the DEs. Other big time teams that run a 4-3 have too. Pay the DE on the cheap at your own peril and expecting to sign a ready and waiting good replacement FA DE is beyond foolish.
It's one thing to go back and forth on whether jpp is a sound long term investment but you undersell him at laughable level. He's one of the best DEs in all of football. If you knew he would play in 75% of the games over the next 4 years you'd sign him to a massive deal and be giddy about it. Or at least any football mind with a clue would.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
and this team as a whole. They clearly value him a lot and value the position. There's no doubt in my mind, he's going to be on the Giants next season and I look forward to the defense continuing the domination they showed as the season wore on. I fully expect him to get Vernon money(if not 5 years, then 4) and I think he's worth it.
the deal is the same as what Vernon got, I have no idea why he wouldn't at least test FA, given how many teams are swimming in cap space. He can't stop the Giants from tagging him, although there are rumors that there is a "gentleman's agreement" that they will not do so. But he refuse to sign a contract until he gets FA, and then bring back any offer to the Giants.
I know I'm in the minority, but I would not sign him for what I think he wants. The most I would do is use the non-exclusive FT and trade him for less than two #1's, maybe two #2's. He's 28, missing most of his right hand, and has back surgery, and a sports hernia. Use a day one or two pick on a pass rusher, and platoon that player with Okwara, OO, and Wynn. I'd rather resign Hankins, so we have the mass to deal with the Dallas OL. He's also cheaper, healthier, and younger.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
And don't think he was an impact player, I don't know what to tell you. I know his bunches of sacks came against mediocre teams. But every game, he was a real valuable presence. JJ Watt really IS that good yet that D killed without him. Brady's pop GOAT now, Pats survived without him. Adrain Peterson, most talented RB since..., it wasn't a huge loss.
This is a team sport. We can overcome the loss of one player. But to say JPP doesn't create a massive positive effect for this D is foolish. Collins had a peak Polamalu year in terms of disruption, it's far from a lock that he remains at that level. Resign JPP and make sure our D is still an impact unit.
People are stil mad JPP had a horrible fireworks accident
Can't we laugh about it now? Not like that squad was going anywhere that year, he made a mistake and has made more plays for this team than I can count that would make me forgive him. The hate is unreal. He is a top 5 DE.
A pass rush hides many flaws in the secondary and the fact we don't have a dominant LB ( like Jaylon Smith would have been for the next 10 years).
But, I can't complain that much about Eli Apple.
We need to put pressure on the opposing QB, JPP would be nice to keep but we can find someone as good or better for the money it would cost to keep JPP.
Let him go, thanks for your time, we wish you well, let's go find someone that actually completes the sacks.
I'd rather use that money on 2 LBs that would create havoc and actually cover a TE or a RB out of the backfield than someone who gets close but doesn't really cause any damage.
Have a great life in Jacksonville JPP, we will always love you.
The team's third best pass rusher is Kennard? Hankins? Collins?
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
But JPP and Vernon are the second and third reasons for that. Their run defense is stellar. Other than bringing back JPP and Hanks, I hope we draft a guy like Deatrich Wise who has decent run D but is best suited to be an outside rusher on third downs. JPP and Vernon can man the middle on those third down passing plays and we can put Kennard and Wise on the outside and that should uplift the pass rush significantly.
But, saying JPP isn't good because he only has sacks against the Browns and Bears is ridiculous. He and Vernon were as big a part of taking down the Dallas O as anyone. Okwara also seems strong against the run. And it's that run defense that makes those edge guys so integral.
The team's third best pass rusher is Kennard? Hankins? Collins?
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
I'm not clamoring to spend the money on offensive players. I'd like to spend the money on someone who actually records a sack.
Makes good sense for both JPP and the the Giants. They both know what they got, and are comfortable with it. JPP may not be what he might have been, but he's still one of the better DE's, and fits very well with what Spags likes to do.
Back in 2012 we talked often on BBI about QB pressures and hurries.
It didn't just start with Vernon. It was used to point out JPP having a good year in 2012 despite the drop in sacks. His QB pressure rate was higher in 2012 than 2011.
I would expect you to get it.
Enough with the sack numbers as your only measuring stick for a pass rushers effectiveness. That's not how it works.
Jerry has developed a reputation for being strict about not overpaying a player, even with a Giant like Tuck, who had a big role in both Super Bowl seasons.
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
Use your eyes. The pass rush was weak all season, and the best football the defense played happened after JPP went down.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.
The first seven games of the year the DL only produced four sacks. JPP had two and Vernon one. Maybe it was because they had never played together as a unit and two were new to Spags' system.
Come games eight through twelve. the DL had 15 sacks. Vernon had seven, including two in game 12 at the Steelers. The pass rush was not weak during those five games. Use your eyes to look up the stats.
Game twelve against the Steelers was the last for JPP. In games 13 through 17 (including the playoff game), Vernon had one half of a sack.
Should this be surprising? You have two good pass rushing ends and they can only double one, which was usually JPP. If you have only one then they can double him all the time. If your one guy gets hurt then you've got no on the end who can rush the passer. Season over.
Use your eyes. The pass rush was weak all season, and the best football the defense played happened after JPP went down.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.
Get off that MD crack. Our sack numbers dropped significantly when he went out across the board. JPP opens up more hurried and sacks for everyone on the line.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
not the player he once was in spite of his great effort to make a comeback. Love his heart, but really 5.5 sacks against Chicago and Cleveland... Let Okara (spelling) get his chance or draft me a DE.
can stay healthy they'll force alot of presure and sacks.But that is one of the question marks to me.the second one is the salary cap,can the giants pay both?
Get off that MD crack. Our sack numbers dropped significantly when he went out across the board. JPP opens up more hurried and sacks for everyone on the line.
Gotta agree. JPP was hitting that Oline hard and added pressure on just about every snap.
Giants just seem to have their number for a player
and wont go past it. I suspect that number for JPP will sway towards the Giants favor considering JPP's injury history, he didn't finish the season, let's remember that.
For that reason, I see him getting tagged becsude he will not like the number.
I'd rather use that money on 2 LBs that would create havoc and actually cover a TE or a RB out of the backfield than someone who gets close but doesn't really cause any damage.
Where are you getting these guys from? FA? No you're not.
You guys act like FA is a trade game. It's anything but.
Sure...i'd trade JPP for two monster 4-3 LBs too. Who the hell wouldn't? But first off, two great LBs will cost twice what JPP would cost and second, those guys aren't sitting in the FA market with arms wide open for NYG hugs and kisses.
Where's this great FA TE everyone keeps talking about? I don't see him.
Keep JPP assuming he takes something close to Vernon for maybe one less year. It's the only move here.
correlation does not imply causation. Are you honestly trying to say that JPP's absence actually HELPED the pass rush?
The entire defense got better and better as the season progressed. JPP's pass rush improved. Vernon's improved. Then JPP goes down, the Giants play spirited in his absence for 3 out of the 5 weeks he missed and now you're parroting a wacky theory that JPP was actually hurting the pass rush here.
The D would have been even better if JPP was in the lineup and lest we forget that the D played like shit in the biggest game of the year.
QB hurries and pressures are wins for the the DL. They are impact plays. And he made them early and often this year. It wasn't just at the midway point when sack number rose. He did it starting week 2 when JPP was the best defender on the field vs Dallas.
Sacks? That makes up about 1-2% of the total plays of a DL. But let's keep talking about it as the only way a DL brings value to his team.
this way we can all dance and sing kumbaya when JPP leads the Giants defense to a super bowl title one of these coming seasons. That's not a shot by the way, just being hopeful. We have all been wrong about personnel decisions here. You just happened to be wrong about Strahan, the greatest NYG player since LT.
I don't even need to look at stats with a guy like JPP
none of should need to look at the stats, or hurries, hits and sack numbers. Just watch the guy play! He wins more often than not. He's always active. He rarely if every gets washed out. His arms are always swinging around and making things tough on the opposing offense. That's enough for me.
I'm saying the defense was able to function at its highest level despite JPP's absence. To me that says something about whether paying him a huge contract is essential to continued defensive success.
I don't know why you bring up Strahan. Weren't you one of the guys that killed me for calling out Shockey? How did that work out? How did Plax work out after I said to trade him in September 2008? How did Lavar Arrington work out when I was the only guy on this board saying he wasn't worth signing? Shit what did JPP do a couple months after I said he might become a problem? He blew half his hand off. Sorry, but that's not my fault.
He's gonna be back, and I'll root for him. I'm on record as saying the money is better spent elsewhere. Specifically, use it to sign Logan Ryan and ensure that we have the top three CB positions locked down with young talent for the next three years. It's a cheaper route that I think yields more benefit, and probably leaves enough money to help the offensive line.
The Patriots offense was able to function just fine, to the tune of 3-1 without Brady. Should we discredit him for that?
Football is a team game. It's not as simple as pointing to one guy for overall success or failure as a team or unit.
Christ, I never said JPP being out was the reason we got better. I said we know that the defense functioned at a high level without him. I think that matters when we talk about whether to pay him a cornerstone contract.
how can anyone in his shoes say that with a straight face? he made 18 ish mil over the last 2 years, just from football. who knows about endorsements, and that doesn't include his rookie contract. Even if he made horrible, horrible investment decisions, what he'll get from even a bad contract will still allow him to feed his family for the rest of his life.
I don't begrudge him making as much as he can. Just knock off with the bullshit.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
When it matters? Doesn't every snap matter? You mean crunch-time, right? If so you are contradicting yourself because our very own JPP is awesome at making plays 'when they matter'.. and btw saying JJ Watt is overrated and that you've "never" seen him make plays when it matters will only lead me to believe you "never" seen him play because there hasn't been a bigger playmaker on defense since L.T.
What??? Of course there is only so much he can do LOL there is only so much anyone can do but he can be the best player in the NFL at any spot across the D-Line.
That's like saying.. Odell isn't overrated BUT there's just only so much he can do.. He cant pass block or rush the passer.. WTF?! that's so dumb to say.
You don't like Watt's game either? That's harder to understand than your comments on JPP. Watt is an all timer. One of the best ever. It's Reggie White and then Watt. Watt may be even better than White. Who's been better than this guy in the last 20 years?
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
Holy crap! Is this a joke? Either you are talking out of your ass and you've seen maybe 3 snaps or you have no idea what you see.
This is easily one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on bbi.
Of course Terps doesn't love his game. But the more truthful statement from terps should read as " I don't like him"
Watt is a madman on the field. HE's easily the most disruptive DLineman in the NFL. Whether or not he comes back as awesome following the back thing remains to be seen but I wouldn't bet against him.
you'd be better off quitting the Watt debate. You will lose. Watt eats opposing offenses whole. He's not even human if you ask me. How on earth you could question this guy's greatness is nuts. Kwall is right. He's right there with White but White did it for 15 years. Watt has only done it for 4-5, give or take.
If you have gamepass, go watch some Texans games from the last few years. Watt doesn't just stand out he dominates the scene.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
You can't be serious.
Watt makes plenty of plays and thats when being double teamed on every down
RE: Jerry Reese. The biggest reason that JPP will be resigned.
Jerry has developed a reputation for being strict about not overpaying a player, even with a Giant like Tuck, who had a big role in both Super Bowl seasons.
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
Jerry pulled out the check book because his own job was on the line..
RE: RE: Jerry Reese. The biggest reason that JPP will be resigned.
Jerry has developed a reputation for being strict about not overpaying a player, even with a Giant like Tuck, who had a big role in both Super Bowl seasons.
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
Jerry pulled out the check book because his own job was on the line..
No he pulled out the check book because we had the cap space to do it
The best QB, RB, WR, and Defensive Player of the last decade.
Their teams were able to survive without them for extended stretches, you could argue the Lions actually thrived without Megatron. This is a team sport.
Just because this D played great without JPP doesn't mean he wasn't an important cog. Our DL talent level is one of the main reasons we're so good, let's keep it that way.
Because a big part of your case is "the defense was fine without JPP".
Right now, We can just ignore the small sample size to come up with the conclusion
Watt was brought up because he was out this year in Houston In a larger sample size, the Houston defense was not only fine without him they were the best in the league. Does this mean the team is better going forward without Watt? Hell no!
Sane weak argument can be made about Gronk in NE. He missed time they keep winning. Better withoit him next year? No chance.
JPP is one of the best at his position. You don't just lose a guy like that and easily replace him with a rookie or our current backups.
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
Quote:
crowd say IF in fact he signs a reasonable deal and proves being a Giant is important to him?
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
Read the stats. The DEs aren't the problem.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
But they're not going away, and they are a part of the evaluation process by people in the business these days.
It's not like the older stats tell the whole story anyway. Things like sack count totals and quarterback rating can be as misleading as judging a pitcher by w/l record.
Quote:
crowd say IF in fact he signs a reasonable deal and proves being a Giant is important to him?
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
We payed more (adjusted for League inflation) for the DE's back in 2007-2011.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
He's a good player at a premium position by your own admission. The defense takes a step backwards simply letting him walk.
If he walks you can take it to the bank Reese takes a DE at 23, and no rookie DE is gonna impact like JPP.
The goal is to improve the team over '16, not try to replace lost pieces.
There were entire games last season where the pass rush was completely invisible. Fortunately it was the secondary that was actually elite.
As Giants fans we know what it is to have an elite pass rush, and we know what elite pass rushers look like. I think anyone that tells themselves either Vernon or JPP (2011 was a long time ago) is an elite pass rusher is kidding themselves, up to and including the GM.
Bringing back JPP and fixing the O will get sexier sack totals for the DEs
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
I don't think either player played the year healthy, so I think it's not really a good sample to judge.
Are they elite pass rushers? No, neither one is strahan, but strahan or umenyiora in this era would be making JJ Watt money.
This guy gets it.
Anybody eager to watch JPP walk out the door is a bloody fool. 2 way, 4-3 ends are a rare commodity these days.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
Actually the DEs were the very backbone of the defense last year. The d was good to great last year. The DL played a huge part in that. You hate JPP or at the least don't like him. You constantly underrate or disparage his impact. You also don't like signjng certain players to big bucks based on some weird voodoo logic that only you can understand. You say you want a dominant unit then question why the Giants would re-sign their elite de. But you hate that DE -- ok fine. So you want to devote the precious money remaining to the secondary and believe signing some FA CB to big money. He would be our 4th CB. And obviously you let jpp walk in this offseason of chaos of yours. That is mind numbingly foolish. Mind blowingly mad.
So we let jpp walk. Now we have count them one legit known DE on the roster in Vernon. Another undrafted guy who flashed for 1-2 games but struggled at the POA and NO one else at the position. Sign a FA? Who? We don't know. Doesn't matter it's gonna be fine because we now have 4 corners all making huge money but only 3 can play. And kiss that stout front four goodbye because we just lost okwara to a hammy... the same okwara that never ever ever logged tons of NFL starter snaps. Oh we have a rookie first rounder at DE? Hopefully he's viable. Too bad we couldn't draft a TE, RB, WR or OL in round one -- or maybe we did -- but that means the DEs are average assuming no injury. If a guy gets hurt? Like Vernon? We're done.
Am I wrong ?
Quote:
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
Good points. Osi was horrible vs the run. There were times during Tuck's tenure when people said he was injury prone and accumulated sacks vs bad competition. Funny how nostalgia works.
Actually he's pretty damn close to that player. In 2016 The defense as a whole was better than the 2011 defense by a wide margin. I'd venture it was better than any defense other than 2008.
You're weird with paying certain players. That's it.
Football is a team sport. DRC was our best defender in 2015 and we sucked so he never got the respect he deserved. He was being shown the door by many. In comes a more complete defense and he is a key component to our defense. I don't care about stats. I care about wins and loses. I care about making your teammates better. I care about what I see with my own two eyes. The stats back up how valuable Vernon and JPP are but if you are so blinded by your own opinios and fixed mindset then there is no reason to have a conversation. You have hated JPP for a long time and the fireworks incident formed your fixed opinion. You fail to realize how he has changed both on and off the field. He is the leader of our defense. Sorry. I know that must really kill you.
Never mind that the D was still adjusting to Spags system. Or that the Giants don't really have a pass rushing LB on the team or much pass rush at DT and no pass rushing DE worth much behind the two starters. No the pass rush "struggled" because of the only two pass rushers on the entire fucking team!! Cmon just fucking quit this crap already.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
It's one thing to go back and forth on whether jpp is a sound long term investment but you undersell him at laughable level. He's one of the best DEs in all of football. If you knew he would play in 75% of the games over the next 4 years you'd sign him to a massive deal and be giddy about it. Or at least any football mind with a clue would.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
Can't debate with them either.
I know I'm in the minority, but I would not sign him for what I think he wants. The most I would do is use the non-exclusive FT and trade him for less than two #1's, maybe two #2's. He's 28, missing most of his right hand, and has back surgery, and a sports hernia. Use a day one or two pick on a pass rusher, and platoon that player with Okwara, OO, and Wynn. I'd rather resign Hankins, so we have the mass to deal with the Dallas OL. He's also cheaper, healthier, and younger.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
Move on? What?? Who's the idiot???
This is a team sport. We can overcome the loss of one player. But to say JPP doesn't create a massive positive effect for this D is foolish. Collins had a peak Polamalu year in terms of disruption, it's far from a lock that he remains at that level. Resign JPP and make sure our D is still an impact unit.
A pass rush hides many flaws in the secondary and the fact we don't have a dominant LB ( like Jaylon Smith would have been for the next 10 years).
But, I can't complain that much about Eli Apple.
We need to put pressure on the opposing QB, JPP would be nice to keep but we can find someone as good or better for the money it would cost to keep JPP.
Let him go, thanks for your time, we wish you well, let's go find someone that actually completes the sacks.
I'd rather use that money on 2 LBs that would create havoc and actually cover a TE or a RB out of the backfield than someone who gets close but doesn't really cause any damage.
Have a great life in Jacksonville JPP, we will always love you.
Let's move on.
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
Based on last season, probably Collins. He's actually good at fighting through blocks.
Might have something with Okwara though.
But, saying JPP isn't good because he only has sacks against the Browns and Bears is ridiculous. He and Vernon were as big a part of taking down the Dallas O as anyone. Okwara also seems strong against the run. And it's that run defense that makes those edge guys so integral.
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
I'm not clamoring to spend the money on offensive players. I'd like to spend the money on someone who actually records a sack.
There are other options.
Just sayin'
ThatLimerickGuy said:
You can't win with idiots.
djm: reply
Can't debate with them either.
Classic fucking pawn job. Kudos.
It didn't just start with Vernon. It was used to point out JPP having a good year in 2012 despite the drop in sacks. His QB pressure rate was higher in 2012 than 2011.
I would expect you to get it.
Enough with the sack numbers as your only measuring stick for a pass rushers effectiveness. That's not how it works.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.
The first seven games of the year the DL only produced four sacks. JPP had two and Vernon one. Maybe it was because they had never played together as a unit and two were new to Spags' system.
Come games eight through twelve. the DL had 15 sacks. Vernon had seven, including two in game 12 at the Steelers. The pass rush was not weak during those five games. Use your eyes to look up the stats.
Game twelve against the Steelers was the last for JPP. In games 13 through 17 (including the playoff game), Vernon had one half of a sack.
Should this be surprising? You have two good pass rushing ends and they can only double one, which was usually JPP. If you have only one then they can double him all the time. If your one guy gets hurt then you've got no on the end who can rush the passer. Season over.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.
Get off that MD crack. Our sack numbers dropped significantly when he went out across the board. JPP opens up more hurried and sacks for everyone on the line.
Quote:
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
Can't debate with them either.
Brilliant response djm
Get off that MD crack. Our sack numbers dropped significantly when he went out across the board. JPP opens up more hurried and sacks for everyone on the line.
Gotta agree. JPP was hitting that Oline hard and added pressure on just about every snap.
For that reason, I see him getting tagged becsude he will not like the number.
Where are you getting these guys from? FA? No you're not.
You guys act like FA is a trade game. It's anything but.
Sure...i'd trade JPP for two monster 4-3 LBs too. Who the hell wouldn't? But first off, two great LBs will cost twice what JPP would cost and second, those guys aren't sitting in the FA market with arms wide open for NYG hugs and kisses.
Where's this great FA TE everyone keeps talking about? I don't see him.
Keep JPP assuming he takes something close to Vernon for maybe one less year. It's the only move here.
The entire defense got better and better as the season progressed. JPP's pass rush improved. Vernon's improved. Then JPP goes down, the Giants play spirited in his absence for 3 out of the 5 weeks he missed and now you're parroting a wacky theory that JPP was actually hurting the pass rush here.
The D would have been even better if JPP was in the lineup and lest we forget that the D played like shit in the biggest game of the year.
Sacks? That makes up about 1-2% of the total plays of a DL. But let's keep talking about it as the only way a DL brings value to his team.
I don't know why you bring up Strahan. Weren't you one of the guys that killed me for calling out Shockey? How did that work out? How did Plax work out after I said to trade him in September 2008? How did Lavar Arrington work out when I was the only guy on this board saying he wasn't worth signing? Shit what did JPP do a couple months after I said he might become a problem? He blew half his hand off. Sorry, but that's not my fault.
He's gonna be back, and I'll root for him. I'm on record as saying the money is better spent elsewhere. Specifically, use it to sign Logan Ryan and ensure that we have the top three CB positions locked down with young talent for the next three years. It's a cheaper route that I think yields more benefit, and probably leaves enough money to help the offensive line.
Football is a team game. It's not as simple as pointing to one guy for overall success or failure as a team or unit.
Football is a team game. It's not as simple as pointing to one guy for overall success or failure as a team or unit.
Christ, I never said JPP being out was the reason we got better. I said we know that the defense functioned at a high level without him. I think that matters when we talk about whether to pay him a cornerstone contract.
I thought you were but maybe I'm wrong.
I don't begrudge him making as much as he can. Just knock off with the bullshit.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
Quote:
Houston was #1 in the league without him.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
You can't be serious.
Quote:
Houston was #1 in the league without him.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
When it matters? Doesn't every snap matter? You mean crunch-time, right? If so you are contradicting yourself because our very own JPP is awesome at making plays 'when they matter'.. and btw saying JJ Watt is overrated and that you've "never" seen him make plays when it matters will only lead me to believe you "never" seen him play because there hasn't been a bigger playmaker on defense since L.T.
What??? Of course there is only so much he can do LOL there is only so much anyone can do but he can be the best player in the NFL at any spot across the D-Line.
That's like saying.. Odell isn't overrated BUT there's just only so much he can do.. He cant pass block or rush the passer.. WTF?! that's so dumb to say.
Can you list a few defenders you do like?
Quote:
Houston was #1 in the league without him.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
Holy crap! Is this a joke? Either you are talking out of your ass and you've seen maybe 3 snaps or you have no idea what you see.
This is easily one of the most ridiculous things I have seen on bbi.
Of course Terps doesn't love his game. But the more truthful statement from terps should read as " I don't like him"
Watt is a madman on the field. HE's easily the most disruptive DLineman in the NFL. Whether or not he comes back as awesome following the back thing remains to be seen but I wouldn't bet against him.
If you have gamepass, go watch some Texans games from the last few years. Watt doesn't just stand out he dominates the scene.
Quote:
In comment 13368388 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Houston was #1 in the league without him.
I think he's overrated, and have said so here in the past. To be fair I haven't watched a huge number of Texans games, but in those I have I've never seen him make a play when it matters.
You can't be serious.
Watt makes plenty of plays and thats when being double teamed on every down
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
Jerry pulled out the check book because his own job was on the line..
Quote:
Jerry has developed a reputation for being strict about not overpaying a player, even with a Giant like Tuck, who had a big role in both Super Bowl seasons.
The times have changed. Jerry has gone from "In Jerry we Trust" to "Jerry's a bust" after recent drafts that have not gone well and the absence of the Giants from the playoffs for four years.
This last season everything turned for Reese. And you can be sure that Jerry more than anyone wants to keep his magic defense together where it might solidify his reputation as an exceptional GM.
His quick and decisive actions in the free agent market, signing three players who wound up on the 1st or 2nd All Pro team.
His vindication for his acquisition of the prior year, DRC, who eliminated any doubts about him with his team-leading six picks, and 21 pass defenses and his excellence as a blitzer. Last years's 2nd round choice, Collins, who looked to some as if he were headed for a short career in the NFL, turned into one of the NFC's top defensive players.
And both of this year's top two draft picks, Eli Apple and Shepard, had successful rookie seasons, both making somebody's all rookie team.
Gil Brandt said of Apple: Some thought the Giants reached for Apple in the draft, but I think he outplayed expectations, posting 51 tackles, a pick and a forced fumble. Apple looks like he'll be a cornerback in the NFL for a long time; he can play inside or outside.
Jerry pulled out the checkbook for the first time last off-season and found that the experience was pretty good.
Jerry pulled out the check book because his own job was on the line..
No he pulled out the check book because we had the cap space to do it
Peterson
Calvin
Watt
The best QB, RB, WR, and Defensive Player of the last decade.
Their teams were able to survive without them for extended stretches, you could argue the Lions actually thrived without Megatron. This is a team sport.
Just because this D played great without JPP doesn't mean he wasn't an important cog. Our DL talent level is one of the main reasons we're so good, let's keep it that way.
Right now, We can just ignore the small sample size to come up with the conclusion
Watt was brought up because he was out this year in Houston In a larger sample size, the Houston defense was not only fine without him they were the best in the league. Does this mean the team is better going forward without Watt? Hell no!
Sane weak argument can be made about Gronk in NE. He missed time they keep winning. Better withoit him next year? No chance.
JPP is one of the best at his position. You don't just lose a guy like that and easily replace him with a rookie or our current backups.