early this morning. He has since posted several other snaps of himself working out, riding in a cab, and getting something to eat. Doesn't appear to be anything too exciting happening just yet.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
But they're not going away, and they are a part of the evaluation process by people in the business these days.
It's not like the older stats tell the whole story anyway. Things like sack count totals and quarterback rating can be as misleading as judging a pitcher by w/l record.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
He's a good player at a premium position by your own admission. The defense takes a step backwards simply letting him walk.
If he walks you can take it to the bank Reese takes a DE at 23, and no rookie DE is gonna impact like JPP.
The goal is to improve the team over '16, not try to replace lost pieces.
I do think they're being used to rationalize elite expenditures on non-elite players.
There were entire games last season where the pass rush was completely invisible. Fortunately it was the secondary that was actually elite.
As Giants fans we know what it is to have an elite pass rush, and we know what elite pass rushers look like. I think anyone that tells themselves either Vernon or JPP (2011 was a long time ago) is an elite pass rusher is kidding themselves, up to and including the GM.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
There's a reason Mack gets most of his sacks in the 2nd half of games. When you're leading, especially by muntitled scores, opposing offenses become one dimensional and DEs can go all out for the sacks. The Giants DL last year was definitely geared to stop the run first and get after the QB second (in nonobvious passing situations).
Bringing back JPP and fixing the O will get sexier sack totals for the DEs
2-way defense ends are orders of magnitude more important than pass rush specialists. Look at the number of TOLs and passes defended our ends had last year. And it's not even like the sack numbers are bad.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
There were indeed games where the pass rush struggled.
Probably the whole first half of the season. We also know that Vernon played on a broken hand and JPP really didn't start to look like himself until the year was well underway, call it health, or maybe he just wasn't fully recovered until a certain point.
I don't think either player played the year healthy, so I think it's not really a good sample to judge.
Are they elite pass rushers? No, neither one is strahan, but strahan or umenyiora in this era would be making JJ Watt money.
2-way defense ends are orders of magnitude more important than pass rush specialists. Look at the number of TOLs and passes defended our ends had last year. And it's not even like the sack numbers are bad.
This guy gets it.
Anybody eager to watch JPP walk out the door is a bloody fool. 2 way, 4-3 ends are a rare commodity these days.
Which stats? Until we signed Vernon I didn't see QB Hurries used very often around here. Now reading BBI would have you believe it's a better stat than actual sacks.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
Actually the DEs were the very backbone of the defense last year. The d was good to great last year. The DL played a huge part in that. You hate JPP or at the least don't like him. You constantly underrate or disparage his impact. You also don't like signjng certain players to big bucks based on some weird voodoo logic that only you can understand. You say you want a dominant unit then question why the Giants would re-sign their elite de. But you hate that DE -- ok fine. So you want to devote the precious money remaining to the secondary and believe signing some FA CB to big money. He would be our 4th CB. And obviously you let jpp walk in this offseason of chaos of yours. That is mind numbingly foolish. Mind blowingly mad.
So we let jpp walk. Now we have count them one legit known DE on the roster in Vernon. Another undrafted guy who flashed for 1-2 games but struggled at the POA and NO one else at the position. Sign a FA? Who? We don't know. Doesn't matter it's gonna be fine because we now have 4 corners all making huge money but only 3 can play. And kiss that stout front four goodbye because we just lost okwara to a hammy... the same okwara that never ever ever logged tons of NFL starter snaps. Oh we have a rookie first rounder at DE? Hopefully he's viable. Too bad we couldn't draft a TE, RB, WR or OL in round one -- or maybe we did -- but that means the DEs are average assuming no injury. If a guy gets hurt? Like Vernon? We're done.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
Good points. Osi was horrible vs the run. There were times during Tuck's tenure when people said he was injury prone and accumulated sacks vs bad competition. Funny how nostalgia works.
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Actually he's pretty damn close to that player. In 2016 The defense as a whole was better than the 2011 defense by a wide margin. I'd venture it was better than any defense other than 2008.
You're weird with paying certain players. That's it.
Let me ask you this question? You keep touting snacks and dismissing JPP. You point out Hankins as a guy we have to keep. You have beaten down JPP at every chance you get. Why do you keep praising Snacks and Hankins while devaluing Vernon and JPP? You do realize that Hankins and Snacks provide NOTHING in the pass game. But if you flip it, JPP and Vernon are excellent run defenders. So, why do you continually devalue our ends and love our DTs?
Football is a team sport. DRC was our best defender in 2015 and we sucked so he never got the respect he deserved. He was being shown the door by many. In comes a more complete defense and he is a key component to our defense. I don't care about stats. I care about wins and loses. I care about making your teammates better. I care about what I see with my own two eyes. The stats back up how valuable Vernon and JPP are but if you are so blinded by your own opinios and fixed mindset then there is no reason to have a conversation. You have hated JPP for a long time and the fireworks incident formed your fixed opinion. You fail to realize how he has changed both on and off the field. He is the leader of our defense. Sorry. I know that must really kill you.
THAy the pass rush got better and better and better as the season progressed and was actually near dominant down the stretch. The stats shows this to be true. The Giants were in the upper tier of qb hits, pressures and sacks over the last 7 weeks or so. And jpp was active for 3-4 of them.
Never mind that the D was still adjusting to Spags system. Or that the Giants don't really have a pass rushing LB on the team or much pass rush at DT and no pass rushing DE worth much behind the two starters. No the pass rush "struggled" because of the only two pass rushers on the entire fucking team!! Cmon just fucking quit this crap already.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
The Giants have historically devoted a shit load of money to the DL and notably the DEs. Other big time teams that run a 4-3 have too. Pay the DE on the cheap at your own peril and expecting to sign a ready and waiting good replacement FA DE is beyond foolish.
It's one thing to go back and forth on whether jpp is a sound long term investment but you undersell him at laughable level. He's one of the best DEs in all of football. If you knew he would play in 75% of the games over the next 4 years you'd sign him to a massive deal and be giddy about it. Or at least any football mind with a clue would.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
and this team as a whole. They clearly value him a lot and value the position. There's no doubt in my mind, he's going to be on the Giants next season and I look forward to the defense continuing the domination they showed as the season wore on. I fully expect him to get Vernon money(if not 5 years, then 4) and I think he's worth it.
the deal is the same as what Vernon got, I have no idea why he wouldn't at least test FA, given how many teams are swimming in cap space. He can't stop the Giants from tagging him, although there are rumors that there is a "gentleman's agreement" that they will not do so. But he refuse to sign a contract until he gets FA, and then bring back any offer to the Giants.
I know I'm in the minority, but I would not sign him for what I think he wants. The most I would do is use the non-exclusive FT and trade him for less than two #1's, maybe two #2's. He's 28, missing most of his right hand, and has back surgery, and a sports hernia. Use a day one or two pick on a pass rusher, and platoon that player with Okwara, OO, and Wynn. I'd rather resign Hankins, so we have the mass to deal with the Dallas OL. He's also cheaper, healthier, and younger.
2 straight years with the financial well being of his grandkids grandkids on the line and he blew up his hand with fireworks one year and had a so-so year the 2nd year.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
And don't think he was an impact player, I don't know what to tell you. I know his bunches of sacks came against mediocre teams. But every game, he was a real valuable presence. JJ Watt really IS that good yet that D killed without him. Brady's pop GOAT now, Pats survived without him. Adrain Peterson, most talented RB since..., it wasn't a huge loss.
This is a team sport. We can overcome the loss of one player. But to say JPP doesn't create a massive positive effect for this D is foolish. Collins had a peak Polamalu year in terms of disruption, it's far from a lock that he remains at that level. Resign JPP and make sure our D is still an impact unit.
People are stil mad JPP had a horrible fireworks accident
Can't we laugh about it now? Not like that squad was going anywhere that year, he made a mistake and has made more plays for this team than I can count that would make me forgive him. The hate is unreal. He is a top 5 DE.
A pass rush hides many flaws in the secondary and the fact we don't have a dominant LB ( like Jaylon Smith would have been for the next 10 years).
But, I can't complain that much about Eli Apple.
We need to put pressure on the opposing QB, JPP would be nice to keep but we can find someone as good or better for the money it would cost to keep JPP.
Let him go, thanks for your time, we wish you well, let's go find someone that actually completes the sacks.
I'd rather use that money on 2 LBs that would create havoc and actually cover a TE or a RB out of the backfield than someone who gets close but doesn't really cause any damage.
Have a great life in Jacksonville JPP, we will always love you.
The team's third best pass rusher is Kennard? Hankins? Collins?
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
But JPP and Vernon are the second and third reasons for that. Their run defense is stellar. Other than bringing back JPP and Hanks, I hope we draft a guy like Deatrich Wise who has decent run D but is best suited to be an outside rusher on third downs. JPP and Vernon can man the middle on those third down passing plays and we can put Kennard and Wise on the outside and that should uplift the pass rush significantly.
But, saying JPP isn't good because he only has sacks against the Browns and Bears is ridiculous. He and Vernon were as big a part of taking down the Dallas O as anyone. Okwara also seems strong against the run. And it's that run defense that makes those edge guys so integral.
The team's third best pass rusher is Kennard? Hankins? Collins?
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
I'm not clamoring to spend the money on offensive players. I'd like to spend the money on someone who actually records a sack.
Makes good sense for both JPP and the the Giants. They both know what they got, and are comfortable with it. JPP may not be what he might have been, but he's still one of the better DE's, and fits very well with what Spags likes to do.
Back in 2012 we talked often on BBI about QB pressures and hurries.
It didn't just start with Vernon. It was used to point out JPP having a good year in 2012 despite the drop in sacks. His QB pressure rate was higher in 2012 than 2011.
I would expect you to get it.
Enough with the sack numbers as your only measuring stick for a pass rushers effectiveness. That's not how it works.
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
Quote:
crowd say IF in fact he signs a reasonable deal and proves being a Giant is important to him?
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
Read the stats. The DEs aren't the problem.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
But they're not going away, and they are a part of the evaluation process by people in the business these days.
It's not like the older stats tell the whole story anyway. Things like sack count totals and quarterback rating can be as misleading as judging a pitcher by w/l record.
Quote:
crowd say IF in fact he signs a reasonable deal and proves being a Giant is important to him?
The same thing they've been saying: we're going to be paying $30 million for DEs and still have a problem generating a pass rush. Great.
We payed more (adjusted for League inflation) for the DE's back in 2007-2011.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
He's a good player at a premium position by your own admission. The defense takes a step backwards simply letting him walk.
If he walks you can take it to the bank Reese takes a DE at 23, and no rookie DE is gonna impact like JPP.
The goal is to improve the team over '16, not try to replace lost pieces.
There were entire games last season where the pass rush was completely invisible. Fortunately it was the secondary that was actually elite.
As Giants fans we know what it is to have an elite pass rush, and we know what elite pass rushers look like. I think anyone that tells themselves either Vernon or JPP (2011 was a long time ago) is an elite pass rusher is kidding themselves, up to and including the GM.
Bringing back JPP and fixing the O will get sexier sack totals for the DEs
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
I don't think either player played the year healthy, so I think it's not really a good sample to judge.
Are they elite pass rushers? No, neither one is strahan, but strahan or umenyiora in this era would be making JJ Watt money.
This guy gets it.
Anybody eager to watch JPP walk out the door is a bloody fool. 2 way, 4-3 ends are a rare commodity these days.
To my eyes last year this team had a tough time generating a conventional pass rush, and the defense was carried primarily by an elite defensive tackle and a phenomenal secondary. I didn't see Vernon and JPP wrecking games.
There have been many rationalizations for JPP and Vernon. They're good players, but for that money we need the defensive ends to be the backbone of the team. And they ain't that.
Actually the DEs were the very backbone of the defense last year. The d was good to great last year. The DL played a huge part in that. You hate JPP or at the least don't like him. You constantly underrate or disparage his impact. You also don't like signjng certain players to big bucks based on some weird voodoo logic that only you can understand. You say you want a dominant unit then question why the Giants would re-sign their elite de. But you hate that DE -- ok fine. So you want to devote the precious money remaining to the secondary and believe signing some FA CB to big money. He would be our 4th CB. And obviously you let jpp walk in this offseason of chaos of yours. That is mind numbingly foolish. Mind blowingly mad.
So we let jpp walk. Now we have count them one legit known DE on the roster in Vernon. Another undrafted guy who flashed for 1-2 games but struggled at the POA and NO one else at the position. Sign a FA? Who? We don't know. Doesn't matter it's gonna be fine because we now have 4 corners all making huge money but only 3 can play. And kiss that stout front four goodbye because we just lost okwara to a hammy... the same okwara that never ever ever logged tons of NFL starter snaps. Oh we have a rookie first rounder at DE? Hopefully he's viable. Too bad we couldn't draft a TE, RB, WR or OL in round one -- or maybe we did -- but that means the DEs are average assuming no injury. If a guy gets hurt? Like Vernon? We're done.
Am I wrong ?
Quote:
Neither of these guys is close to what we had going from 2007-2011. I know JPP was great in 2011, but that was a long time ago. He isn't that player anymore.
Well Strahan was a HOF DE and Osi often sold out to get the QB and was below average against the run. JPP and Vernon are every bit the two way DE that Tuck was though, and I'm a huge Tuck fan.
Good points. Osi was horrible vs the run. There were times during Tuck's tenure when people said he was injury prone and accumulated sacks vs bad competition. Funny how nostalgia works.
Actually he's pretty damn close to that player. In 2016 The defense as a whole was better than the 2011 defense by a wide margin. I'd venture it was better than any defense other than 2008.
You're weird with paying certain players. That's it.
Football is a team sport. DRC was our best defender in 2015 and we sucked so he never got the respect he deserved. He was being shown the door by many. In comes a more complete defense and he is a key component to our defense. I don't care about stats. I care about wins and loses. I care about making your teammates better. I care about what I see with my own two eyes. The stats back up how valuable Vernon and JPP are but if you are so blinded by your own opinios and fixed mindset then there is no reason to have a conversation. You have hated JPP for a long time and the fireworks incident formed your fixed opinion. You fail to realize how he has changed both on and off the field. He is the leader of our defense. Sorry. I know that must really kill you.
Never mind that the D was still adjusting to Spags system. Or that the Giants don't really have a pass rushing LB on the team or much pass rush at DT and no pass rushing DE worth much behind the two starters. No the pass rush "struggled" because of the only two pass rushers on the entire fucking team!! Cmon just fucking quit this crap already.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
It's one thing to go back and forth on whether jpp is a sound long term investment but you undersell him at laughable level. He's one of the best DEs in all of football. If you knew he would play in 75% of the games over the next 4 years you'd sign him to a massive deal and be giddy about it. Or at least any football mind with a clue would.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
Can't debate with them either.
I know I'm in the minority, but I would not sign him for what I think he wants. The most I would do is use the non-exclusive FT and trade him for less than two #1's, maybe two #2's. He's 28, missing most of his right hand, and has back surgery, and a sports hernia. Use a day one or two pick on a pass rusher, and platoon that player with Okwara, OO, and Wynn. I'd rather resign Hankins, so we have the mass to deal with the Dallas OL. He's also cheaper, healthier, and younger.
Once he gets $$$$$ what do you think is going to happen?
You can't win with idiots.
Move on? What?? Who's the idiot???
This is a team sport. We can overcome the loss of one player. But to say JPP doesn't create a massive positive effect for this D is foolish. Collins had a peak Polamalu year in terms of disruption, it's far from a lock that he remains at that level. Resign JPP and make sure our D is still an impact unit.
A pass rush hides many flaws in the secondary and the fact we don't have a dominant LB ( like Jaylon Smith would have been for the next 10 years).
But, I can't complain that much about Eli Apple.
We need to put pressure on the opposing QB, JPP would be nice to keep but we can find someone as good or better for the money it would cost to keep JPP.
Let him go, thanks for your time, we wish you well, let's go find someone that actually completes the sacks.
I'd rather use that money on 2 LBs that would create havoc and actually cover a TE or a RB out of the backfield than someone who gets close but doesn't really cause any damage.
Have a great life in Jacksonville JPP, we will always love you.
Let's move on.
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
Based on last season, probably Collins. He's actually good at fighting through blocks.
Might have something with Okwara though.
But, saying JPP isn't good because he only has sacks against the Browns and Bears is ridiculous. He and Vernon were as big a part of taking down the Dallas O as anyone. Okwara also seems strong against the run. And it's that run defense that makes those edge guys so integral.
Before the offseason the Giants needed depth at DE and more pass rushers. Letting JPP go makes the Giants substantially weaker on defense. For those clamouring to spend his potential salary on offensive players - there are plenty of bargains to be had on offense that won't break the bank and improve the team. There aren't bargain 2-way DEs available, they don't exist.
I'm not clamoring to spend the money on offensive players. I'd like to spend the money on someone who actually records a sack.
There are other options.
Just sayin'
ThatLimerickGuy said:
You can't win with idiots.
djm: reply
Can't debate with them either.
Classic fucking pawn job. Kudos.
It didn't just start with Vernon. It was used to point out JPP having a good year in 2012 despite the drop in sacks. His QB pressure rate was higher in 2012 than 2011.
I would expect you to get it.
Enough with the sack numbers as your only measuring stick for a pass rushers effectiveness. That's not how it works.
And he's about to get paid like an indispensable player. Doesn't add up.