The anti-retain JPP argument seems to be that his stats only came against crappy teams, and obviously his health issues. Sure i guess you could say that, however in those games he was being the old 'game-wrecker' he used to be. JPP was starting to show signs of his old self, he would have reached double digit sacks had he finished out the season. This also has to do with the opportunity cost that he comes with. Yes you could save that 15-17 a year if you dont re-sign him, who are you going to replace him with for the upcoming year? It has been pointed out that his injury negatively affected Vernon and a good pass rush makes our already good secondary look that much better. I guess what I am saying is, who would you replace him with next year, which is a win now year?
Interesting, just curious, when was this?
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between wanting him back, and wanting him back at any price. I think everyone wants him back, but not if it handcuffs the team (from a salary cap perspective) to the point they can't bring in other players that are needed.
Then you don't understand the salary cap situation the Giants are in.
Mostly those who don't want him back are concerned about the cap consequences.
Can you name five DE's that are clearly better 'all around' than JPP.. (hint: Its a trick question so don't name anyone just say NO)
It's not as simple as who do you replace him with when you consider the wear/tear and trying to project what type of talent he'll be in 2 or 3 years. There has to be a comfort level with the terms of the deal over its duration, as is having talent in place for 2017.
I'd prefer to keep him, but my terms would be closer to 4/48 than 5/75.
Reese won't give him a contract that will prevent the team from retaining talent down the road. It's going to be a deal on the Giants terms. Worrying about the money is misguided.
If you look at FA DEs and draft prospects, JPP cannot be adequately replaced this year and maybe not even for next. Real good 4-3 2-way DEs are very expensive. OV would be doubled every snap. Not so with JPP here.
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but I think those who would rather not spend 5/75 or more to retain him are being conservative, of which I am one.
It's not as simple as who do you replace him with when you consider the wear/tear and trying to project what type of talent he'll be in 2 or 3 years. There has to be a comfort level with the terms of the deal over its duration, as is having talent in place for 2017.
I'd prefer to keep him, but my terms would be closer to 4/48 than 5/75.
Reese won't give him a contract that will prevent the team from retaining talent down the road. It's going to be a deal on the Giants terms. Worrying about the money is misguided.
I'm not worried, trusting Reese will do the right thing on this one is what I've been preaching on many threads.
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7 fingers and has had back surgery
Seem to effect him last year.
The back surgery comment is such an amateur hour response at this point. It was almost 5 years ago. He has shown no ill effects of the surgery since that year, either on the field- gameday or practice, or in training. Come up with something better because you troll every JPP thread and quite frankly look like a Giant jackass.
I am not trolling I just have a different opinion.
Last year JPP has a pick 6. Remember? It was tipped right at the line and dropped right into his hands with nobody around him. He almost dropped it and had to cradle it with his chest and midsection.
He physically is at a disadvantage over the other 21 men on the field in terms of how he can grab, push and pull. That is not an opinion.
See...the way I see it, you win when you put together a core of leaders who make it known that they will lead by words AND example. Leaders need to he smart. JPP is an idiot. I am sorry. He is. Twice he has proved it to me. First, after his 2011 season he went on a buffet tour and then lost his 2012 season because he never rebounded from being out of shape. THEN, with millions upon millions on the table he plays with fireworks. Smart professionals don't do that. You don't give 75 million contracts to guys like that unless you are the redskins in 2002
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In comment 13367622 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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7 fingers and has had back surgery
Seem to effect him last year.
The back surgery comment is such an amateur hour response at this point. It was almost 5 years ago. He has shown no ill effects of the surgery since that year, either on the field- gameday or practice, or in training. Come up with something better because you troll every JPP thread and quite frankly look like a Giant jackass.
I am not trolling I just have a different opinion.
Last year JPP has a pick 6. Remember? It was tipped right at the line and dropped right into his hands with nobody around him. He almost dropped it and had to cradle it with his chest and midsection.
He physically is at a disadvantage over the other 21 men on the field in terms of how he can grab, push and pull. That is not an opinion.
See...the way I see it, you win when you put together a core of leaders who make it known that they will lead by words AND example. Leaders need to he smart. JPP is an idiot. I am sorry. He is. Twice he has proved it to me. First, after his 2011 season he went on a buffet tour and then lost his 2012 season because he never rebounded from being out of shape. THEN, with millions upon millions on the table he plays with fireworks. Smart professionals don't do that. You don't give 75 million contracts to guys like that unless you are the redskins in 2002
It was actually a FF by Hankins that JPP recovered for the TD.
#BringBackOurBoys
I think there are people on this board that believe that JPP is a top DE...personal in today's NFL there is not a single DE playing outside of Watt & Clowney I would rather have...JPP is one of the best overall DL in the NFL...who does everything well...and in my opinion was getting ready to go on a tear and would have finished with 13-15 sacks if not for the unfortunate injury...
He is the superior player over Vernon...so the question is how do you ask a superior player to take $5 million less per year then an inferior one..can you do this with a strait face??
As was noted above the Giants have a 36 year old quarterback on his last legs with maybe a few more prime years...and can't afford to have its championship caliber defense take a step back as was noted when he was out and the drop off in the defense and Vernon's play took place...
JPP is the batman Vernon the robin and he needs to be paid accordingly... the superior player should have the right to make more money if he performs and stays on the field.....and the Giants should have the right to protect themselves if he can't stay on the field by having an out in 2-3 years...
Stop bull shitting...nobody cares what you think or anyone on this board thinks...it's not your money...it's the Giants money...and pay should be based strictly on professional evaluation...if they agree on the performance and worth above...the deal should be structured accordingly...
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won't acknowledge the player he is now ... this isn't 2011 JPP. Top DE is debatable, penny pinching is a disingenuous, and the world doesn't end if he moves on.
Can you name five DE's that are clearly better 'all around' than JPP.. (hint: Its a trick question so don't name anyone just say NO)
Boom...exactly!!
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In comment 13367622 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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7 fingers and has had back surgery
Seem to effect him last year.
The back surgery comment is such an amateur hour response at this point. It was almost 5 years ago. He has shown no ill effects of the surgery since that year, either on the field- gameday or practice, or in training. Come up with something better because you troll every JPP thread and quite frankly look like a Giant jackass.
I am not trolling I just have a different opinion.
Last year JPP has a pick 6. Remember? It was tipped right at the line and dropped right into his hands with nobody around him. He almost dropped it and had to cradle it with his chest and midsection.
He physically is at a disadvantage over the other 21 men on the field in terms of how he can grab, push and pull. That is not an opinion.
See...the way I see it, you win when you put together a core of leaders who make it known that they will lead by words AND example. Leaders need to he smart. JPP is an idiot. I am sorry. He is. Twice he has proved it to me. First, after his 2011 season he went on a buffet tour and then lost his 2012 season because he never rebounded from being out of shape. THEN, with millions upon millions on the table he plays with fireworks. Smart professionals don't do that. You don't give 75 million contracts to guys like that unless you are the redskins in 2002
So you decide to pick one friggen play from the year to show he's at disadvantage?
Well if he's at an disadvantage, how did he possibly accumulate all the pressures, tackle for losses, sacks, basic tackles, batted balls that he did? Relative to his peers at his position, he was in the upper echelon.
If that's a disadvantage relative to the other "21" men on the field, then I guess we are in pretty good shape because I don't know what the says about the vast majority of the defensive ends in the league and the offensive tackles he outplayed on a weekly basis
In terms of his "stupidity", can't disagree with is past but its also pretty obvious he's grown up as most humans do with his sacrifice to come back and dedication to training and playing. If you can't see the past two years he's dedicated himself to being in the best possible shape he can be, then I dont know what to tell you. But I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that, considering you don't even know what you watched last year on the field.
Its not an "opinion" he was a good player, its fact.
Its not an "opinion" he was a good player, its fact.
Bro. His complaint was with the ease with which JPP actually scored a TD. He's a clown and his complaints aren't only ridiculous: they're stupid.
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says from what she heard it's more than likely JPP will return. Tuck and Osi have had an influence on that.
Interesting, just curious, when was this?
This AM.
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In comment 13367604 JonC said:
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but I think those who would rather not spend 5/75 or more to retain him are being conservative, of which I am one.
It's not as simple as who do you replace him with when you consider the wear/tear and trying to project what type of talent he'll be in 2 or 3 years. There has to be a comfort level with the terms of the deal over its duration, as is having talent in place for 2017.
I'd prefer to keep him, but my terms would be closer to 4/48 than 5/75.
Reese won't give him a contract that will prevent the team from retaining talent down the road. It's going to be a deal on the Giants terms. Worrying about the money is misguided.
I'm not worried, trusting Reese will do the right thing on this one is what I've been preaching on many threads.
Well your argument is about the money. If that is the crux of most of the let JPP walk crowd then it's without merit. Reese hasn't buried this team with bad contracts. They've been able to keep everyone they wanted keep over the years outside of maybe Joseph. They know what they're doing from a cap perspective.
Either way, it wouldn't effect my willingness/ability to sign other targeted free agents this year. It might mean restructuring some contracts I'd prefer not to restructure, but not who I sign.
It just doesn't matter though. If the Giants gave him a 100 million but were able to keep whomever they wanted what's the practical effect? Nothing.
If someone wants to let him walk bc they think he'll miss games or be a slug after signing, fine. But the money argument doesn't hold any water.
Production dips.
We already are paying Vernon and Snacks
I think many are desperate to retain him. At his best he's a very good player, but the performance delta is a concern given what he's shown in the NFL. I just want to see the team mitigate the risk as I suspect in a few years the contract will be one that is at least somewhat regretful.
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It's about the inherent value, which got blown up by the OV contract last year, I get it from that level of the fan perspective.
It just doesn't matter though. If the Giants gave him a 100 million but were able to keep whomever they wanted what's the practical effect? Nothing.
If someone wants to let him walk bc they think he'll miss games or be a slug after signing, fine. But the money argument doesn't hold any water.
You need to think beyond 2017. I think we can all make an argument that we can keep the team in tact with our 2017 cap and go after a WR or OL, but at what future cost?
I'm a huge JPP supporter and want him back but we can't do it at all costs. The team will exist post Eli and we need to make sure we can be nimble with the cap for future years as well. To what extend none of us know, but its a legit question and one I'm sure Reese and Co are going through every which way under the sun.
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7 fingers and has had back surgery
I understand that it effected him when he had the club, but did anyone see the finger issue effect him in any way last year? I didn't.
If don't think the finger issue affected him much, if at all last year. I also think it will only heal more and more and get better as time goes on. I don't think it'll have any effect on his play going forward.
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In comment 13367802 JonC said:
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It's about the inherent value, which got blown up by the OV contract last year, I get it from that level of the fan perspective.
It just doesn't matter though. If the Giants gave him a 100 million but were able to keep whomever they wanted what's the practical effect? Nothing.
If someone wants to let him walk bc they think he'll miss games or be a slug after signing, fine. But the money argument doesn't hold any water.
You need to think beyond 2017. I think we can all make an argument that we can keep the team in tact with our 2017 cap and go after a WR or OL, but at what future cost?
I'm a huge JPP supporter and want him back but we can't do it at all costs. The team will exist post Eli and we need to make sure we can be nimble with the cap for future years as well. To what extend none of us know, but its a legit question and one I'm sure Reese and Co are going through every which way under the sun.
It's very easy in the NFL to sign a guy to a large contract, but have an out in 3 years(when Eli is done) in case the team wants to break it down and start over. This isn't the NBA when every year is guaranteed.
• 2 starting O-linemen
• TE
• Backup RB
• Third WR
• Resign JPP (or find a replacement)
• Resign Hank (or find a replacement)
• LB
• 3rd ER
• Kicker
• Backup CBs
• Understudy for Eli (which arguably can wait another year)
If they sign and structure JPP’s contract similar to OV’s contract, that will eat up $13M in 2017. That leaves $15M to address needs at the other positions. The OL needs immediate help. Given the weakness of the draft at the OL, means the Giants will have to look to FAs to fill one or both of those needs. Problem is there is also a shortage of talented FA O-linemen, which means they will have to pay a premium if they want someone in the class of a Whitworth, Reiff, or Zietler. Take Whitworth, he should get somewhere in the neighborhood of $11M. That would leave the Giants with about $4M in cap space, and some significant holes left to fill that they may not be able to address through the draft. But say they decide not to overspend on JPP. That $13M could go a long way to resolving other significant needs, and they can do so knowing that the draft is deep at DE/ER. So, to the original question, do I want to see JPP back on the Giants -absolutely, but not if it means the team has to overspend to do it. I have always been of the mindset that it is better to let a player walk a season or two too early, then to hang on to them a season or two too late.
Now fast forward to present day.... I believe we all have been rooting for his comeback to show the pronogsticators that they don't know what the hell they were talking about (the Cris Carters of the world and more ) and it fell good for him to show glimpses of greatness (Cleveland browns game for example).
But I fear he is the same guy he's most consistently shown himself to be. A guy who shows hustle and great run control but can be corralled when it comes to sacks and pressures. Now I feel like we were so thrilled at how good our defense looked last season and have visions of grandeur of what is to come but thinking about it... we have one DE making large sums of money who doesn't really sack the quarterback in OV. Do we need to pay another one 21 mill per and does it benefit us as much as we think in terms of the big picture.
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In comment 13367802 JonC said:
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It's about the inherent value, which got blown up by the OV contract last year, I get it from that level of the fan perspective.
It just doesn't matter though. If the Giants gave him a 100 million but were able to keep whomever they wanted what's the practical effect? Nothing.
If someone wants to let him walk bc they think he'll miss games or be a slug after signing, fine. But the money argument doesn't hold any water.
You need to think beyond 2017. I think we can all make an argument that we can keep the team in tact with our 2017 cap and go after a WR or OL, but at what future cost?
I'm a huge JPP supporter and want him back but we can't do it at all costs. The team will exist post Eli and we need to make sure we can be nimble with the cap for future years as well. To what extend none of us know, but its a legit question and one I'm sure Reese and Co are going through every which way under the sun.
Doesn't seem like you read what I wrote.
When has Reese burdened the team with bad contracts? When have the Giants not been able to retain guys they wanted to retain?
If the Giants re-sign JPP it will be on a contract that doesn't kill the team down the road. Reese and Abrams have been great with the cap. They aren't going to sign him long term "at all costs." That's why using the money argument is silly.
If the plan is let's not sign JPP but instead yet again pay a free agent more than he is worth to play OL I don't follow your argument. I'd be much more comfortable bargain hunting on offense. The Giants valuations of Cruz, Jerry, Jennings, Rainey, Darkwa, Donnel, and Newhouse likely isn't very high. Improvements or status quo at those spots can be had very very cheaply.
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In comment 13367647 Brandon Walsh said:
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In comment 13367622 ThatLimerickGuy said:
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7 fingers and has had back surgery
Seem to effect him last year.
The back surgery comment is such an amateur hour response at this point. It was almost 5 years ago. He has shown no ill effects of the surgery since that year, either on the field- gameday or practice, or in training. Come up with something better because you troll every JPP thread and quite frankly look like a Giant jackass.
I am not trolling I just have a different opinion.
Last year JPP has a pick 6. Remember? It was tipped right at the line and dropped right into his hands with nobody around him. He almost dropped it and had to cradle it with his chest and midsection.
He physically is at a disadvantage over the other 21 men on the field in terms of how he can grab, push and pull. That is not an opinion.
See...the way I see it, you win when you put together a core of leaders who make it known that they will lead by words AND example. Leaders need to he smart. JPP is an idiot. I am sorry. He is. Twice he has proved it to me. First, after his 2011 season he went on a buffet tour and then lost his 2012 season because he never rebounded from being out of shape. THEN, with millions upon millions on the table he plays with fireworks. Smart professionals don't do that. You don't give 75 million contracts to guys like that unless you are the redskins in 2002
So you decide to pick one friggen play from the year to show he's at disadvantage?
Well if he's at an disadvantage, how did he possibly accumulate all the pressures, tackle for losses, sacks, basic tackles, batted balls that he did? Relative to his peers at his position, he was in the upper echelon.
If that's a disadvantage relative to the other "21" men on the field, then I guess we are in pretty good shape because I don't know what the says about the vast majority of the defensive ends in the league and the offensive tackles he outplayed on a weekly basis
In terms of his "stupidity", can't disagree with is past but its also pretty obvious he's grown up as most humans do with his sacrifice to come back and dedication to training and playing. If you can't see the past two years he's dedicated himself to being in the best possible shape he can be, then I dont know what to tell you. But I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that, considering you don't even know what you watched last year on the field.
Its not an "opinion" he was a good player, its fact.
I know what I watched. The "fumble" that you are saying Hankins caused was with the QB throwing- essentially an INT.
He is definitely a good player- I agree.
But isn't it convenient that the "Grow up" phase happened after he blew up his hand and realized (about 2 years after every other not idiot player does) that he would be set for 3 generations if he wasn't a knucklehead.
Now- I agree with most of the other anti-JPP crowd. I would be fine with him coming back. 4 for 30 and I sign him up.
I have said this before- I tell JPP he is a 10 million a year player but we need to subtract 1 mil per missing finger.
I need guys who are young, healthy and aggressive on D.
JPP MAYBE hits one of those 3.
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In comment 13367809 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13367802 JonC said:
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It's about the inherent value, which got blown up by the OV contract last year, I get it from that level of the fan perspective.
It just doesn't matter though. If the Giants gave him a 100 million but were able to keep whomever they wanted what's the practical effect? Nothing.
If someone wants to let him walk bc they think he'll miss games or be a slug after signing, fine. But the money argument doesn't hold any water.
You need to think beyond 2017. I think we can all make an argument that we can keep the team in tact with our 2017 cap and go after a WR or OL, but at what future cost?
I'm a huge JPP supporter and want him back but we can't do it at all costs. The team will exist post Eli and we need to make sure we can be nimble with the cap for future years as well. To what extend none of us know, but its a legit question and one I'm sure Reese and Co are going through every which way under the sun.
Doesn't seem like you read what I wrote.
When has Reese burdened the team with bad contracts? When have the Giants not been able to retain guys they wanted to retain?
If the Giants re-sign JPP it will be on a contract that doesn't kill the team down the road. Reese and Abrams have been great with the cap. They aren't going to sign him long term "at all costs." That's why using the money argument is silly.
When have the Giants not been able to retain guys they wanted to retain?
LINVAL JOSEPH
MARTELLUS BENNETT
This year we appear to have the defense that can win the Super Bowl and the quarterback that can win the Super Bowl. In two or three years this won't be true. Quarterback retired and/or defense begins to scatter.
We have to move this year. It won't matter much what the cap situation looks like in two or three years when we're looking for the next quarterback. Phil Simms was signed in 1979 but didn't play the full 16 games and wasn't ready for the Super Bowl until 1984.
Management is making the logical move to try to win in the next two years.
I think back to what I felt about JPP prior to his injury, but my issues with him were different than yours. I thought he was a selfish player. My hope back then wasn't that they would sign him to a long term deal or that he would play under the franchise tag, but that they would trade his rights to another team for a 1st round draft pick (or more).
But either I was wrong about him back then or his fireworks mishap was an epiphany for him. It feels to me as if he went from being a guy who was only in it for the money to a guy who actually has loyalty to the Giants and considers his coaches and teammates family.
So whereas before I simply wanted to get as much in return for him as possible, now I want to see him get a longterm deal. His value isn't just what he brings on game day, he is a leader in the locker room and a role model.
It gets nauseating, doesn't it BBI?
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it seems as if there hasnt been at least three in the last 24 hours.
.
It gets nauseating, doesn't it BBI?
LINVAL JOSEPH
MARTELLUS BENNETT
The Giants have been very good at keeping the players they deem important to keep. And I think JPP falls under the category.
agreed but the Giants knew they were going to have this problem with JPP when they gave that contract to Vernon last off season...
Yes there are a lot of variables. But it's silly for fans to draw conclusions on players when they aren't privy to the financial data that the organization has access to. Abrams and Reese know what their cap situation looks like over the next several years. They know who's coming up and who they want to keep for what. They aren't just taking it year by year.
As far as other teams, Reese and Abrams are simply better than most at managing the financial aspect of the roster. The Giants simply haven't had many bad contracts under Reese. Other teams have plenty -- take a look around the league. Besides, the money isn't the only reason star players leave teams.
Yes there are a lot of variables. But it's silly for fans to draw conclusions on players when they aren't privy to the financial data that the organization has access to. Abrams and Reese know what their cap situation looks like over the next several years. They know who's coming up and who they want to keep for what. They aren't just taking it year by year.
As far as other teams, Reese and Abrams are simply better than most at managing the financial aspect of the roster. The Giants simply haven't had many bad contracts under Reese. Other teams have plenty -- take a look around the league. Besides, the money isn't the only reason star players leave teams.
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But of spending too much to get him to stay.
agreed but the Giants knew they were going to have this problem with JPP when they gave that contract to Vernon last off season...