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Getting defensive in the draft.

Klaatu : 2/27/2017 9:17 am
In an earlier thread, I wrote that I hoped the Giants could find an offensive skill player (or two) in the upcoming draft. As deep as the 2017 draft appears to be at RB, WR, and TE, they should be able to add at least one more weapon to their arsenal, depending of course on how things shake out...a weapon whose impact would be immediate, and serve to "supercharge" an offense that was woefully inept and unproductive in 2016. I haven't changed my mind about that.

However, that doesn't mean that I want to see the Giants ignore the other side of the ball when they're on the clock. It's a deep draft for all three levels of defense - D-Line, LBs, and D-Backs - and regardless of what happens with their free agents, if the opportunity is there for the Giants to bolster one or more of their defensive units, I figure they won't hesitate to do so. It wouldn't surprise me to see them draft another CB early on, or another DE/edge rusher, or even a DT. An LB might be wishful thinking in the first couple of days, but you never know. Ditto for Safety.

Now, before the posts start pouring in about the need to upgrade the offensive line, let me say that I concur. However, as every pundit/analyst has pointed out it's simply not a good draft for O-Linemen, and the odds of drafting one in the bottom half of every round who can come in and contribute right away are very long. As I've said repeatedly, I believe it's imperative that the Giants look to upgrade their O-Line in free agency, prior to the draft. If a developmental prospect with the proverbial "upside" happens to fall to them, so be it, but I wouldn't count on any making an immediate impact.

On to Indy! Let the Underwear Olympics begin!

Based on scouting reports to this point  
JonC : 2/27/2017 9:29 am : link
I'd wager there's a pretty good chance the OL won't be in play at #23.
I wouldn't be shocked at all  
The_Boss : 2/27/2017 9:32 am : link
If 23 is a CB. The assumption is all OL prospects are gobbled up as are Howard and Njoku. Neither Corey Davis or Mike Williams will be there either. So, based on the NYG paradigm, if no WR or OL, we turn to DE and CB. I'm not very excited over what may be available at DE (Barnett/Charlton if you believe most mocks). So, that leaves CB.
RE: Based on scouting reports to this point  
Klaatu : 2/27/2017 9:39 am : link
In comment 13372380 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd wager there's a pretty good chance the OL won't be in play at #23.


So you're all in on a LB there?

:)
I really like McKinley  
JonC : 2/27/2017 9:43 am : link
tho he's probably better suited to 3-4 OLB.
In trying to read the tea leaves  
Beer Man : 2/27/2017 9:57 am : link
I'm guessing they will go TE, LB, or ER with the first pick. I think they will address the OL in the FA market as the draft does not look all that promising there.
RE: I really like McKinley  
Klaatu : 2/27/2017 9:59 am : link
In comment 13372390 JonC said:
Quote:
tho he's probably better suited to 3-4 OLB.


Seems like Zach Cunningham is getting most of the attention, kind of like Leonard Floyd did last year.
I'd be shocked if they went TE or regular LB  
JonC : 2/27/2017 10:01 am : link
I don't know if the ZC chatter began from a source or a BBIer.
RE: I'd be shocked if they went TE or regular LB  
AcidTest : 2/27/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13372404 JonC said:
Quote:
I don't know if the ZC chatter began from a source or a BBIer.


I think they'd be hard pressed to pass up Njoku. Not sure about Cunningham. I like him a lot. This team desperately needs a coverage LB, although it's possible to argue Collins is doing much of that from his position.

Reese knows this is a passing league, so he has a preference in the upper rounds for DE, CB, WR, and a seam stretching TE. I also expect the first round pick to be from a major school.
If Njoku or OJ slips I could see it  
JonC : 2/27/2017 10:10 am : link
but doesn't appear likely.
A couple of D guys I'd like  
adamg : 2/27/2017 10:10 am : link
In the fourth or fifth DE Deatrich Wise Jr. out of Arkansas - 6'5'' 271

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5uHYImxMw0

In the second CB Jourdan Lewis out of Michigan - 5'10'' 185

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqtfNgwlg3o

Taco wouldn't be a bad first rounder. I think JPP is coming back though, in which case, I think Wise is a better value.
I'll caveat my TE prediction  
Beer Man : 2/27/2017 10:11 am : link
Only if one of the two dynamic TEs are still on the board (Howard or Njoku). With their skills, either of these guys could open up the passing game for the Giants as it would force other teams out of the cover-2 zone that they use to slow down OBJ.
RE: I'll caveat my TE prediction  
adamg : 2/27/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13372418 Beer Man said:
Quote:
Only if one of the two dynamic TEs are still on the board (Howard or Njoku). With their skills, either of these guys could open up the passing game for the Giants as it would force other teams out of the cover-2 zone that they use to slow down OBJ.


I would also add one of the top 3 receivers to your list. I think they'd go Njoku, Howard, Davis, Williams, or Ross before they go defense.
RE: If Njoku or OJ slips I could see it  
AcidTest : 2/27/2017 10:14 am : link
In comment 13372414 JonC said:
Quote:
but doesn't appear likely.


I don't think it's likely either, but as of now, with a lot yet to be determined, Njoku or Howard is who I think they'd pick. Since both will likely be gone, I'd look for Bucky Hodges in the second or third.
RE: RE: If Njoku or OJ slips I could see it  
Beer Man : 2/27/2017 10:16 am : link
In comment 13372424 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 13372414 JonC said:


Quote:


but doesn't appear likely.



I don't think it's likely either, but as of now, with a lot yet to be determined, Njoku or Howard is who I think they'd pick. Since both will likely be gone, I'd look for Bucky Hodges in the second or third.
I could also see Jake Butt in a later round.
RE: I'd be shocked if they went TE or regular LB  
Klaatu : 2/27/2017 10:38 am : link
In comment 13372404 JonC said:
Quote:
I don't know if the ZC chatter began from a source or a BBIer.


I think his name popped up in a couple of mock drafts. That's how it starts. :)

As for a "regular" LB, yeah, I don't see it either, especially not if they re-sign Robinson, and the reports about them being high on Goodson are true. I do like Jarrad Davis, though.

As for a TE, wow, it's really a tough call for me. Would they pass up a chance to draft Howard or Njoku? I doubt it. Are they more likely to target someone like Jake Butt or Evan Engram a little later on? Probably. In year's past, I'd say they'd wait until Day 3 and look at guys like Hayden Pinke or Scott Orndorff, but this year, who knows?
RE: Based on scouting reports to this point  
ryanmkeane : 2/27/2017 10:42 am : link
In comment 13372380 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd wager there's a pretty good chance the OL won't be in play at #23.

Jon - do you mean because guys like Robinson and Lamp are more suited at guard? To me, having a flexible lineman is actually what the Giants covet, and right around the spot Pugh went - who turned into a really good guard. This makes me think OL is certainly in play at 23. You could have as many as 3 OL in that spot that can play tackle or guard.
I've been on the Haason Reddick train for months  
sjnyfan : 2/27/2017 10:43 am : link
In short, I think he's a slightly better version of Bobby Wagner.

Otherwise this is a deep and talented class of defensive backs, several of which I would've taken over Eli Apple if it were the same class. I think you could get a guy with strong Pro Bowl potential at #23.

I'd rather  
ryanmkeane : 2/27/2017 10:43 am : link
go for a plug and play OL like Lamp or Robinson than take a chance on an edge rusher who has tweener qualities.
ryan  
JonC : 2/27/2017 10:47 am : link
I suspect they'll find one flexible OL via UFA, a player who could secure RG or RT. On draft day, suspect they'll be preferring a premium position at #23, which could well line up with CB, WR, or edge rusher. Of course the draft is still two months away but this seems to be the way the value is settling so far.
The combine will change things up as well as FA but  
George from PA : 2/27/2017 10:53 am : link
Is there a position that Giants won't draft?

QB is unlikely but starting to look for Eli's replacement is not a crazy idea. We have opening for RB, WR and TE and a strong need to upgrade the OL.

DL could lose strong starters and need depth, same goes for LB. The defensive backfield looks strong on papaer but we all saw what happened when DRC went down....

Last year was a major step in the rebuilding the team.....but this year is vital to get us to the promise land. in Reese we trust!

RE: I'd rather  
adamg : 2/27/2017 10:54 am : link
In comment 13372451 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
go for a plug and play OL like Lamp or Robinson than take a chance on an edge rusher who has tweener qualities.


Me too. I really don't like these mocks that have us taking 3-4 OLBs.

I'd rather draft a true DT in the first than take one of these 6'2'' 250 pound ERs.
ryanmkeane  
Klaatu : 2/27/2017 11:01 am : link
I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Giants didn't draft Pugh because they were looking for a good Guard, or even simply a versatile O-Lineman. They drafted him because they were desperate to find a Right Tackle, having failed to find one in free agency, and he was the last OT on the board who they felt had the chance to be a Day One starter. I'd rather not see history repeat itself.
RE: ryan  
AcidTest : 2/27/2017 11:11 am : link
In comment 13372455 JonC said:
Quote:
I suspect they'll find one flexible OL via UFA, a player who could secure RG or RT. On draft day, suspect they'll be preferring a premium position at #23, which could well line up with CB, WR, or edge rusher. Of course the draft is still two months away but this seems to be the way the value is settling so far.


I think they'll get an OL in FA, and then look to add another on day three.
LB in the first?  
Sec 103 : 2/27/2017 11:28 am : link
Shirley ye jests...
So hard to talk about positions  
Sy'56 : 2/27/2017 11:50 am : link
specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.
RE: ryanmkeane  
mrvax : 2/27/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13372469 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Giants didn't draft Pugh because they were looking for a good Guard, or even simply a versatile O-Lineman. They drafted him because they were desperate to find a Right Tackle, having failed to find one in free agency, and he was the last OT on the board who they felt had the chance to be a Day One starter. I'd rather not see history repeat itself.


Klaatu , again, I agree with you. What is bothering me is why didn't or don't the Giants let Pugh compete for OLT? He's done well there as a backup and IMO would perform better overall than Beatty did.
RE: So hard to talk about positions  
adamg : 2/27/2017 11:51 am : link
In comment 13372534 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.


Any names that you can throw out there that you think are Giants-esque that you've come across in your scouting process?
If you just let  
area junc : 2/27/2017 11:58 am : link
history be a guide, we were interested in Floyd + Conklin lsst year and never filled the positions.

Pretty safe bet Cunningham and Bolles are in the conversation, now
RE: If you just let  
mrvax : 2/27/2017 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13372545 area junc said:
Quote:
history be a guide, we were interested in Floyd + Conklin lsst year and never filled the positions.



Many BBI posters say the same damn annoying thing. You ASSUME the Giants coveted Floyd + Conklin while never seeing their board or hearing a statement of fact from Giants brass.

Stupid posters go on to claim Reese & Co. let our preferences to be known (leaked) and therefore other teams jumped ahead in order to select the Giant's pick. Yeah, right. You drop your whole draft board & scouting department just for the sake of snagging the Giant's pick. Get a grip.
Jarrad Davis, the MIKE out of Florida, is my guy  
Optimus-NY : 2/27/2017 12:37 pm : link
I love that kid. I'd be happy as phuq if the NYG picked him at 23 in the first round.
RE: Jarrad Davis, the MIKE out of Florida, is my guy  
AcidTest : 2/27/2017 12:45 pm : link
In comment 13372579 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
I love that kid. I'd be happy as phuq if the NYG picked him at 23 in the first round.


I'd be thrilled with Davis, but don't think Jerry will take him.
RE: RE: So hard to talk about positions  
Sy'56 : 2/27/2017 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13372538 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13372534 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.



Any names that you can throw out there that you think are Giants-esque that you've come across in your scouting process?


I have a few. I'll wait until end of month to really dive in...Still have a lot to do.

I think they are drooling over OJ Howard, Taco Charlton, and Corey Davis. I don't think any will be there at 23 though.
RE: RE: I'd be shocked if they went TE or regular LB  
Beer Man : 2/27/2017 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13372445 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13372404 JonC said:


Quote:


I don't know if the ZC chatter began from a source or a BBIer.



I think his name popped up in a couple of mock drafts. That's how it starts. :)

As for a "regular" LB, yeah, I don't see it either, especially not if they re-sign Robinson, and the reports about them being high on Goodson are true. I do like Jarrad Davis, though.

As for a TE, wow, it's really a tough call for me. Would they pass up a chance to draft Howard or Njoku? I doubt it. Are they more likely to target someone like Jake Butt or Evan Engram a little later on? Probably. In year's past, I'd say they'd wait until Day 3 and look at guys like Hayden Pinke or Scott Orndorff, but this year, who knows?
Butt is an interesting pick in that many had listed him as a possible day-1 pick prior to his injury. Who knows how far he will fall because of the injury (also in that he is not expected to be fully recovered when the season starts). I don't know what Mac wants in a TE, but he is a TC kind of TE (i.e., good blocker and catches everything)
RE: RE: RE: So hard to talk about positions  
The_Boss : 2/27/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13372596 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13372538 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13372534 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.



Any names that you can throw out there that you think are Giants-esque that you've come across in your scouting process?



I have a few. I'll wait until end of month to really dive in...Still have a lot to do.

I think they are drooling over OJ Howard, Taco Charlton, and Corey Davis. I don't think any will be there at 23 though.


what about Njoku?
Value looks to be on defense  
WillVAB : 2/27/2017 1:33 pm : link
Early.

There could be several intriguing DE options available at 23. Jarrad Davis could be the guy at 23 or in the 2nd if he falls due to being more of a fit as a 4-3 guy. Seems like it's a deep class at CB.

Doubt it happens but the best picks for 1st/2nd round may be on the defensive side.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So hard to talk about positions  
Sy'56 : 2/27/2017 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13372632 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 13372596 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13372538 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13372534 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.



Any names that you can throw out there that you think are Giants-esque that you've come across in your scouting process?



I have a few. I'll wait until end of month to really dive in...Still have a lot to do.

I think they are drooling over OJ Howard, Taco Charlton, and Corey Davis. I don't think any will be there at 23 though.



what about Njoku?


I think they will prefer Howard. Will they have a high enough grade on him for #23? Yes, I think so.

if he got out to Indy and runs a 4.5...he will be a top 15 pick though
RE: RE: RE: So hard to talk about positions  
adamg : 2/27/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13372596 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13372538 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13372534 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


specifically...without knowing what is going to happen in FA.

I'm still of the thought NYG is going to look hard at DL early.



Any names that you can throw out there that you think are Giants-esque that you've come across in your scouting process?



I have a few. I'll wait until end of month to really dive in...Still have a lot to do.

I think they are drooling over OJ Howard, Taco Charlton, and Corey Davis. I don't think any will be there at 23 though.


No sneak peaks. I get it... :/

If I can ask one more, what are your thoughts on Jarrad Davis? Should he be on our radar for the Giants at 23?
I'm going to chime in  
allstarjim : 2/27/2017 2:41 pm : link
I see a lot of information out there about how linebacker is a need, and stuff about drafting a MLB as well.

I don't see them letting Keenan Robinson walk in free agency, but even if they do, Goodson was drafted to be the eventual starter at MLB, and I think he is going to be a very good player, and would be shocked if Reese invested a high pick on the position. First, it would be a huge departure from their draft history. It's been since 2009 and Clint Sintim in the 2nd round since they drafted a linebacker in the first 3 rounds, and he was really a mis-cast pass rusher at that. In terms of drafting a linebacker in the first round, you would have to go all the way back to Carl Banks in 1984.

In short, it's not a premium position they are going to spend the #23 pick on under this current defensive system.
Really not much of a point discussing linebackers at #23 overall, because there will be a high-level player at a position the Giants covet at #23.
I agree  
Mike B from JC : 2/27/2017 2:47 pm : link
On helping the d, I realize the big need for oline. With the shortage of qaulity oline, in the draft, I really hope they pickup a veteran Lt and rg in free agency. Also have to find a recieving TE and big physical wr. Lb is also a need along with a 3 technique DT.
The free agent options at OT are significant...  
Torrag : 2/27/2017 2:53 pm : link
...with Whitworth, Okung and others testing the market. With it being a weak class in the draft I expect the reinforcements will be signed not drafted. OIG is a different situation. There are some players in Rounds 2-4 the Giants may be interested in.
RE: I'm going to chime in  
WillVAB : 2/27/2017 3:30 pm : link
In comment 13372731 allstarjim said:
Quote:
I see a lot of information out there about how linebacker is a need, and stuff about drafting a MLB as well.

I don't see them letting Keenan Robinson walk in free agency, but even if they do, Goodson was drafted to be the eventual starter at MLB, and I think he is going to be a very good player, and would be shocked if Reese invested a high pick on the position. First, it would be a huge departure from their draft history. It's been since 2009 and Clint Sintim in the 2nd round since they drafted a linebacker in the first 3 rounds, and he was really a mis-cast pass rusher at that. In terms of drafting a linebacker in the first round, you would have to go all the way back to Carl Banks in 1984.

In short, it's not a premium position they are going to spend the #23 pick on under this current defensive system.
Really not much of a point discussing linebackers at #23 overall, because there will be a high-level player at a position the Giants covet at #23.


True, but if you look back at the drafts under Reese there really weren't any stud LBs available when the Giants were on the clock in the 1st or 2nd round. The only guy I can think of is Sean Lee in the draft where they took Linval Joseph. That's one pick out of 20.

Re: premium position argument, I think they value a playmaker and leader in the middle of the defense. They went after Pierce in FA. They traded for Beason. If a stud, 3 down MLB is available at 23 I wouldn't dismiss it as an option.
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