hopefully he doesn't fly off the handle because he's probably pissed(not that I would care). Giants have always been fair and he will get his if he plays by their rules.
JPP is not a UDFA or late round rookie. He's made over $35M in his career so far.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
Agree to disagree. This is the move to make, especially if they couldn't get him to sign a cheaper deal prior. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he played a year out on the FT (though unlikely). He's historically been a guy that has shown up when most motivated. Giving him big, guaranteed money for many years is a bad idea. Overpaying JPP for one year while mending a young pass-rusher wouldn't be awful.
hopefully he doesn't fly off the handle because he's probably pissed(not that I would care). Giants have always been fair and he will get his if he plays by their rules.
I doubt at this point he will. They are probably negotiating, this will allow more time. Now if it stretches out very long without an agreement, I'm sure we will see an ugly side of JPP.
before FA starts because that is JPP's last leverage over Giants. If Giants have to count 17 mill against cap into FA, there will be no incentive for the Giants to do anything but a one year deal
Does anyone know if it is the exclusive or non-exclusive?
JPP is not a UDFA or late round rookie. He's made over $35M in his career so far.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
Giants have plenty of leverage. They may not want JPP to play on the FT, but I doubt JPP and his side wants it either. Most of the "premium" FAs are 26-27 when they hit the market and if JPP plays 2017 on the tag, he'll then be 29 when he hits it next offseason. That's going to significantly impact the # of long term deals he gets as teams will be wary of paying big money to a player on the wrong side of 30. Much more risk than paying a 26 year old Vernon just hitting his prime.
JPP is not a UDFA or late round rookie. He's made over $35M in his career so far.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
I don't see it like that at all. Giants have most of the leverage, IMO. Whats the worst case scenario? JPP has an awesome season and earns a big payday? That's good news for our season chances and the Giants will still have the opportunity to pay him next year. At the end of the day, we want JPP on the 2017 NY Giants and he is going to be on the team. He will have to perform at a very high level to get a huge payday next offseason. JPP knows how quick it can be over. He busted his ass and earned this payday. Too much risk for him to play on a 1 year deal.
the tag would cost the team some flexibility, but it wouldn't hamstring them. We will still have close to 20M in space and the ability to create more space with releases and restructures. It's still a very favorable position and it would only cost the Giants like 4M in space.
Given what happened the last time he received the tag, I wonder how long he will take before signing. While that was an extreme situation I would imagine it's something to take into consideration.
and go to the Cowboys, it's bad football operations.
Good move.
Whatever the situation is or will become, one thing was certain. The Cowboys had zero chance to sign JPP. Lots of other teams could but not the Cowboys.
1) Obviously March 9th is when the start of free agency opens. It would be ideal if a long-term contract could be reached with JPP before the 9th (ideally the 7th). This way the team can lower his salary cap allocation and allow the team to pursue other FA targets (OL).
2) If no deal is reached by July 15th, then the team can not sign him to a long term contract. The only option for both JPP and the Giants is to play on the one year tender.
3) If July 15th passes, do not expect JPP to sign the tender until after training camp. The team can't fine him for missing training camp, and he has no obligation to expose himself to injury as the value of the tender is the same whether he shows up for training camp or whether he signs the tender on the eve of the beginning of the regular season.
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
That is the most relevant question. JPP can either negotiate with other teams or he can't, and the Giants can potentially get compensation or they can't.
I hope it's the NEFT, and I have been banging that drum from day one, similar to Cousins in DC. The market will set itself and worst case the Giants get some picks.
Giants can't lose... JPP WONT SIGN A TAG! Multi-year deal is imminent. Giants will have him at the price they want him. JPP signs it and he has to A. stay healthy all year AND B. dominant. We can use a motivated JPP but JPP will realize this could be his last chance..
Wouldn't they have to give up 2 first rounders on a NEFT. No team is going to do that. Zero chance. JPP has leverage for about one week, after that, he cost himself probably about 20 million in guaranteed money.
JPP tweets the picture flys to Jersey, Jack rabbit tweets everyone's coming back on D.
Meanwhile the Giants probably tell JPP we're gonna get this done but we have to use the FT to keep negotiations exclusive. I doubt any of this was a surprise to him or his agent. They will lock him up no doubt in my mind.
not that it really matters, but was it ever made public
Guaranteed cash. It's always the part that really matters.
JPP wants as much upmfront as possible. He screwed up. He should have had the cash two years ago. IIRC the guanrantee then offered by 30 million. Think of the way he could have made the money work for him if he invested wiselyb. Money today is worth more than money tomorrow. I'd give him a 5 year deal with a lot of cash guarantees. The. assume by then Eli is gone and they will have a young cap controlled QB who won't cost them 25 million per year. That way if he's cooked by 33 you can eat the last year.
limited downside. The Giants have all the leverage here, and JPP probably doesn't want to play out this season and then hope that he can make it up next offseason. The tag is only a few million more than you figure he'd cost on a longer term contract, which they can easily make up through restructures.
Now I just hope we can retain Hankins at a reasonable cost, although I find it hard to believe that will be the case.
to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
The $34 million number was before they franchised JPP and agreed to pay him $17 million this year. That's half of the $34 million we had. So, now, it's more like $17.5 million.
But like you said, they can still restructure some contracts and stuff like that. But who knows how much that will actually increase our available money for this FA period.
this the exclusive, or non-exclusive tag? I hope it's the latter. Nobody is giving up two #1s for JPP. Not given his age, injury history, and the contract the wants. But you might get two #2s.
This ties up $17M of cap space, which limits what we an do in FA. So no Hankins, and look for maybe one big FA, and the rest second tier FAs.
If JPP is unhappy, then I could see him sitting out camp, preseason, etc., and reporting just in time for the regular season.
Doing this to keep options open is fine, but I hope Reese doesn't give him Vernon money if he signs.
to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
My feelings on this are well known and have been stated over and over on here since the season ended. I do not wish to and won't revisit my feelings on this except to say, if the tag stands the Giants will regret not being able to fix the O with difference-makers..Poor Eli..Cross your fingers that we ace the draft..Again, let's hope a contract is at hand..Nothing more to say
the Giants better have a contract done by the time FA starts, or they will severely hamstring themselves in FA given the $17M tag. They most lower his cap number, especially considering all the other teams like Jacksonville with miles of cap space.
I wonder if JPP and Cousins will play another year on the tag for their respective teams, and then leave because a third year would be too expensive.
Practically speaking, the FT is only a few million more
even through creative accounting with an extension, JPP would cost at least $11M this season. So basically, it's $6M more expensive - something they could easily recover with an extension or two.
His injury history is just too significant to risk a long term deal. Now we have options. The one thing we could not do was lose both Hankins and JPP. That would have significantly altered the line, and the team. With him franchised you can do many things. Negotiate with Hankins, and if you can sign him to a reasonable deal, take off the tag and go after Whitworth or Warford. I think there are lots of ways JPP still is not a Giant next year and if we can strengthen the team in other areas I am fine with that. The key is the other moves. Going to be an interesting few weeks.
Quite a few young to medium age Giant free agents have
left during the Reese era seemingly because their feelings were hurt that the Giants' offer was lower than they expected (Tuck) or because another player was given a contract extension ahead of them (Nicks).
Two years later they were out on the street while still young enough to have had a few more productive years ahead of them. The contracts that they had signed with their new team were only a little if at all better than what the Giants offered.
With so much money at stake, the player can't afford to let his emotions rule. Your family team, the one that drafted you, is more likely to be patient with you if you're productivity isn't up to expectations right away.
to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
My feelings on this are well known and have been stated over and over on here since the season ended. I do not wish to and won't revisit my feelings on this except to say, if the tag stands the Giants will regret not being able to fix the O with difference-makers..
Chances are the Giants and JPP will work out a longterm deal so you'll never get to realize that you were wrong about their ability to improve the offense with JPP playing under the franchise tag.
The tag is used to ultimately buy time for a long term deal. Neither side likes it, but at this point it is a necessity. They will get the long term deal done and move on
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
The tag is used to ultimately buy time for a long term deal. Neither side likes it, but at this point it is a necessity. They will get the long term deal done and move on
ONLY if they do..I want to hear from the cap experts like Optimus and some others as to how we can improve the O qualitatively if we're stuck with the cap..Most of us are just talking out of our arses, imo
...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
The inevitable release of J.T. Thomas creates another $3M in cap space.
Now take that $11M in cap room I just created for you and...
--Sign Zeitler to a 5 year $55M contract that includes a $25M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $6M.
--Sign Doyle to a 5 year $30M contract that includes a $15M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $4M.
They can make Pugh the highest paid guard and save 4m on the cap. They can create another 7 million by releasing Thomas and Vereen. That will give them about $30M in space. Plenty to fill holes and makes a splash on the OL.
...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
Simple to do yes, but it also pushes more dead money into future years; which can be a bad thing.
It's only dead money if they release Eli before his contract is up. Meanwhile, they don't give up the future leverage to JPP that would come from any longterm deal he signed. Which of the two are you more likely to regret giving up leverage to, Eli or JPP?
But if he's tagged this year can he be tagged again next year and if so then the Gmen just move on from him
They can apply the tag again next year, but if JPP were to wind up playing the year under the franchise tag, in all likelihood it would be his last in a Giants uniform.
From what I've been reading, the NFL hasn't announced
This is fantastic news! If it makes GoTerps squirm, I'm on board. Means it's the right move. Next up, extend Beckham and watch GoTerps officially go off the deep end. Things are looking up, people!
They can make Pugh the highest paid guard and save 4m on the cap.
How much is his back-up making? Because with Pugh, you aren't just paying one salary to fill a position. You have to pay 2 players to fill his role as he will inevitably be hurt - either his quad hurts, his knee hurts, or he has a headache.
But if he's tagged this year can he be tagged again next year and if so then the Gmen just move on from him
They can apply the tag again next year, but if JPP were to wind up playing the year under the franchise tag, in all likelihood it would be his last in a Giants uniform.
They already franchise tagged him. Can they do it a third time?
Playing on a one year deal carries risk fake the player. Doesn't matter what he made so far.
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
Playing on a one year deal carries risk fake the player. Doesn't matter what he made so far.
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
The inevitable release of J.T. Thomas creates another $3M in cap space.
Now take that $11M in cap room I just created for you and...
--Sign Zeitler to a 5 year $55M contract that includes a $25M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $6M.
--Sign Doyle to a 5 year $30M contract that includes a $15M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $4M.
We are not signing Doyle. We will draft a TE early IMO. We will sign a WR before we sign a TE.
Warford would be a cheaper upgrade to Jerry at RG.
This is fantastic news! If it makes GoTerps squirm, I'm on board. Means it's the right move. Next up, extend Beckham and watch GoTerps officially go off the deep end. Things are looking up, people!
If JPP is stupid enough to miss the OTAs and all of Preseason, that is when players usually get pulled hamstrings that effects them 4 thru 6 weeks, so we will not have him until week 7 or 8 and out of shape at that as well!!!
I hope they draft Tanoh Kpassagnon in the 2nd round and let him spend year one as the 3rd or 4th DE. Then if they can't work out a long term deal with JPP they could then insert Kpassagnon into the starting lineup year 2.
On the one hand because JPP doesn't want to have the franchise tag on him for multiple reasons. He'd rather not play on a one year deal in case of injury which could happen on any play. Even if he doesn't sign the tag and comes in late. Which itself isn't ideal because the longer he stays out the less of the $17M he'll earn. That type of scorched Earth negotiation really makes no sense.
The team doesn't want all $17M tied up in our cap for one season instead of spreading it over a deal with a lower AAV affording us the flexibility for greater improvement of the roster for 2017. A season where each additional upgrade could be the tipping point in winning a title imo.
If both sides have something to lose that's the definition of shared leverage.
there are no "gentlemen" agreements in the NFL. It's a business who's rules are defined by the CBA. What they will likely do is what they did with Brandon Jacobs years ago, they tagged him and used that tag to negotiate a long term contract and removed their competition from driving up the bidding.
I'm sure JPP doesn't and won't like it, but the Giants made the proper move for the organization. And I have a feeling they will work something out long term when it's all said and done.
There are advantages and disadvantages for both sides...
But it's much better for team morale if he is playing under a longterm contract. It keeps the focus more pure both from his perspective and that of his teammates who look to him for leadership.
But if he's tagged this year can he be tagged again next year and if so then the Gmen just move on from him
They can apply the tag again next year, but if JPP were to wind up playing the year under the franchise tag, in all likelihood it would be his last in a Giants uniform.
Are you sure about that? I thought a player could only be tagged twice in his lifetime.
I just read an article that says a team can tag a player
This is to negotiate a long-term deal...which WILL get done. Funny, I don't recall people asking "well, what if they don't get a deal done?" when we slapped the tag on Brandon Jacobs.
But the financial commitment becomes astronomical.
On the third tag, regardless of position, it becomes the franchise tag rate for QBs. And for QBs, ithe third tagging is a 44% increase over the previous year's salary.
Really? Of all the things written on BBI throughout the years, this is what pushed you to believe that you've now read everything? Believe it or not, JPP became a leader in the locker room this past year.
Really? Of all the things written on BBI throughout the years, this is what pushed you to believe that you've now read everything? Believe it or not, JPP became a leader in the locker room this past year.
On BBI, JPP is a lazy loser who isn't worth paying more than average starter money.
There seems to be a disconnect between fans about their perception of who the leaders are on this team. It's not simply who is playing the best or who the biggest name is.
You can usually tell simply by watching the sights and sounds tapes and reading the beat writer content. The names would probably surprise people. It won't save him from being released, but JPP and JT Thomas were certainly locker room leaders.
would basically be $40 million guaranteed. That's a win for JPP. But there's no chance we'd tag him at that second rate so it's not even worth entertaining.
There seems to be a disconnect between fans about their perception of who the leaders are on this team. It's not simply who is playing the best or who the biggest name is.
You can usually tell simply by watching the sights and sounds tapes and reading the beat writer content. The names would probably surprise people. It won't save him from being released, but JPP and JT Thomas were certainly locker room leaders.
This. JPP is clearly a leader. And this may come as a surprise to those who think they have a good handle on the team figured out but...JPP will probably be a Giant for life. And based on the numbers other teams could potentially throw at him, those empowered to make decisions in the NFL place a far higher value on him than posters do on here.
If JPP is stupid enough to miss the OTAs and all of Preseason, that is when players usually get pulled hamstrings that effects them 4 thru 6 weeks, so we will not have him until week 7 or 8 and out of shape at that as well!!!
Lol.
I always get a kick out of it when someone questions another's intelligence, yet doesn't seem to know the proper words to use in trying to make their point.
A pulled hamstring would have an effect on the next 4-6 weeks but it could affect it even further.
have all the leverage if he plays one year fine its 17m no signing bonus. Than he leaves we get a third and we sign another player to replace him. Also he gets hurt so 1 year is better than over paying him.
Playing on a one year deal carries risk fake the player. Doesn't matter what he made so far.
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
This. Every move comes with a risk. Tagging him wasnt my favorite option of the three but only if the Giants and jpp don't come to a multi year agreement. What this tells me is the Giants aren't going to offer jpp 50 million in guaranteed. If they were jpp would he signed long term already.
I was just thinking today that if the Giants didn't tag JPP he'd be playing for another team in 2017. I had convinced myself of this. At least it appears that won't unless the two parties go nuts and the tag gets recscinded.
Now I hope JPP signs a long term deal or some rich team gives the Giants some much needed picks.
Cooler heads will prevail on this one. JPP will be pissed, but he will recognize this is a business. At the end of the day, he wants a long term deal to give him some stability. The Giants will come to him with a fair deal and work something out. It's in both sides best interest to come to an agreement. All the Giants did was ensure he comes back and doesn't get to shop the offer around and drive up the price tag.
when he was tagged and eventually signed a new 4 year, $25 million deal with $13 guaranteed.
Quote:
"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
Quote:
"Both parties are happy to get a long-term deal done," Giants general manager Jerry Reese said. "Now Brandon can totally concentrate on the offseason program and get himself ready to go this fall."
JPP can get his 17 mil guaranteed this year, play mediocre and still get a long term contract next year probably for just as much guaranteed he can get now, maybe even more. the only downside is risk of injury. But realistically, this could make him a lot more money than simply signing a long term contract.
JPP can get his 17 mil guaranteed this year, play mediocre and still get a long term contract next year probably for just as much guaranteed he can get now, maybe even more. the only downside is risk of injury. But realistically, this could make him a lot more money than simply signing a long term contract.
I agree with it in part, but it ignores the massive risk he takes from a health perspective. Say he gets a 4 year $48 million deal with $25-$30 million guaranteed after the 2017 season; is the chance of getting an extra $2-$7 million (assuming he gets $40 million guaranteed now) worth the risk?
It seems like a very foolish decision by a guy who already made a foolish decision which by all accounts he learned from.
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
first, to clarify, I never said the Giants shouldn't do it. They really have no choice other than getting into a bidding war with teams with 80 - 100M in cap space. Or lose him for potential comp pick.
Also, JPP wants a long-term contract with 50+M guaranteed, but that doesn't give the Giants leverage IMO.
It would give them leverage over a player who hasn't earned as much and is desperate, they all know the stats, average career is 3 years, average career earnings is like $5M.
JPP is not in that class, but it's not to say he wants to magnanimously offer a hometown discount - I never suggested that. He has value he thinks he's earned.
The cap limits the Giants MORE than it influences JPP IMO.
Second, the Giants have 31.5M not 34M in cap space as people have said. Over the cap, linked below is more accurate than sport trac.
After JPP (17.5) and the rookies (6) it leaves $8M for all other signings.
That hurts the Giants more than JPP.
Sure they could cut more players or restructure others, but fact is they are doing that, if they do it, because JPP is on the tag - that means JPP has the leverage.
Also, to address a final point, the difference between the 17.5 and what JPP could cost on the cap on a LT deal could be as much as 10M or more depending on how they structure the contract. His cap hit could be minimal in 2017 and escalate in years 2 and 3 for example.
Giants leverage is very limited. the downside for JPP is oh well I get $17.5M for this one year, and he only needs to be average and not suffer a career ending injury to get a guaranteed 30M+ next year and come out ahead a year later. downside for the Giants is a cap situation they restructure someone (kicking the can down the road), cut someone they don't really want to cut, or not sign someone else they really want to sign.
Doesn't seem like "Giants in the drivers seat" like many of you make it sound.
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal. Win, win. Giants can't lose here with JPP. Ill be interested to see what that asshats say about our FA targets this year. All in NOW IMO.
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal. Win, win. Giants can't lose here with JPP. Ill be interested to see what that asshats say about our FA targets this year. All in NOW IMO.
This.
What are people talking about re: "he will just play mediocre"? Why? What value does he get from doing that? Injury risk and lower market value?
RE: RE: JPP cannot play 'mediocre' on the tag & wait till next year to cash in
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal. Win, win. Giants can't lose here with JPP. Ill be interested to see what that asshats say about our FA targets this year. All in NOW IMO.
This.
What are people talking about re: "he will just play mediocre"? Why? What value does he get from doing that? Injury risk and lower market value?
This is the same logic that had certain people on here claim Hakeem Nicks was intentionally dogging it and not running routes or catching passes in a contract year. Complete nonsense.
RE: JPP cannot play 'mediocre' on the tag & wait till next year to cash in
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal. Win, win. Giants can't lose here with JPP. Ill be interested to see what that asshats say about our FA targets this year. All in NOW IMO.
Ok, I'll give in on this point, he can't be really mediocre, but he doesn't need to be much better than that because of free agency. Not many players hit free agency, so if he plays even a little above mediocre, he's likely to be one of the top free agents available.
that is my point. And he'll be 29 when he signs his next contract (if he plays on the tag),
Michael Bennett, a decent comp, at 31 signed 3 years 30M, (2 years older than JPP will be and not exactly mediocre, but not a super star when he signed the contract)
...is a function of the guaranteed money being offered. The more guaranteed money they are offering him in a longterm deal, the more leverage the franchise tag gives them. Without knowing the money JPP has previously turned down, it's hard to know where the leverage lies.
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
I think if JPP decides to play under the franchise tag, the $17 million he'll be set to earn is definitely too much. With a decent year, it could potentially make the next season even more expensive. Plus it will make free agency a lot harder this year due to cap space being even more limited than it was before.
RE: RE: RE: It would only give the Giants leverage
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
first, to clarify, I never said the Giants shouldn't do it. They really have no choice other than getting into a bidding war with teams with 80 - 100M in cap space. Or lose him for potential comp pick.
Also, JPP wants a long-term contract with 50+M guaranteed, but that doesn't give the Giants leverage IMO.
It would give them leverage over a player who hasn't earned as much and is desperate, they all know the stats, average career is 3 years, average career earnings is like $5M.
JPP is not in that class, but it's not to say he wants to magnanimously offer a hometown discount - I never suggested that. He has value he thinks he's earned.
The cap limits the Giants MORE than it influences JPP IMO.
Second, the Giants have 31.5M not 34M in cap space as people have said. Over the cap, linked below is more accurate than sport trac.
After JPP (17.5) and the rookies (6) it leaves $8M for all other signings.
That hurts the Giants more than JPP.
Sure they could cut more players or restructure others, but fact is they are doing that, if they do it, because JPP is on the tag - that means JPP has the leverage.
Also, to address a final point, the difference between the 17.5 and what JPP could cost on the cap on a LT deal could be as much as 10M or more depending on how they structure the contract. His cap hit could be minimal in 2017 and escalate in years 2 and 3 for example.
Giants leverage is very limited. the downside for JPP is oh well I get $17.5M for this one year, and he only needs to be average and not suffer a career ending injury to get a guaranteed 30M+ next year and come out ahead a year later. downside for the Giants is a cap situation they restructure someone (kicking the can down the road), cut someone they don't really want to cut, or not sign someone else they really want to sign.
Doesn't seem like "Giants in the drivers seat" like many of you make it sound.
but again, they had no choice here. Giants cap space - ( New Window )
To piggyback on top of what PJ mentioned, the leverage swings to JPP after July 15th. After that date, the Giants can no longer negotiate a long term contract. Their option is JPP signs the 1yr tender or they rescind the tender. If JPP plays on the 1yr tender, then expect that it won't be signed until after training camp. He has no incentive to expose his body to injury during the preseason. The team can not fine a player that is not under contract so there is zero cost to working out on his own in Florida.
If the tender is rescinded, it is ultimately what JPP wants - to be able to sign with any team. Some say the big money will be gone by the time August rolls around. And for some teams that are close to the cap, they would not be able to sign him. But teams like Jax and Cleveland are not going to fully spend the 80 million that they have. If JPP becomes available in August, then he will get his long term contract that he desires.
Forget about any home town discounts. He doesn't owe the Giants anything. He has a ring and is looking for what is likely his last pay day. I hope a long term deal is agreed upon in the next week and it puts all these hypothetical scenarios to rest.
The Giants get a good player at a premium position for at least a year. If they're really far apart you draft his successor.
For the anti-JPP crowd, if he gets hurt again or dogs it you cut ties next year with a zero dollar cap hit. Much better than getting hurt or under performing on a long-term deal with guaranteed money.
His cap hit is probably gonna be on the high end this year tag or no tag. The Giants can't push all his money down the road with big names due for contracts.
But JPP has some incentive to get a multi year deal done. He was so close to not getting a chance at that big pay day already and knows he is only one microfracture surgery away from missing out on it again. He has an up close and personal experience of how unpredictable life can be. It's not an existential danger. The two sides will find a way to get it done
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
My comment was not directed at any one person in this thread
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
And he is ours. 4 years 60 million 35 million guarenteed seems fair for both sides. Make it 5 for 75 but keep the guarenteed money at 40 or under. And it's a good deal for NY.
extend Pugh, re-structure/extend 2 of the top 5 as significantly as possible(if possible), and maybe if under drunken stupor cut DRC(j/k), and work on a deal w/JPP to get him a 5/x 41 guaranteed.
Likely means Hank is gone,sadly IMHO, and #23 or #55 is a DT.
Unless they've already got something in the bank we don't know.
And I've said this for at least 2 years now: it behooves Eli to make sure he helps to get a LT that keeps him upright in the pocket as long as possible for the next few seasons.
But this is much better news than me logging onto BBI and seeing that he signed for 5 years 75 million.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
Don't make me laugh.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: by saying he only needs to be mediocre
which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
Don't make me laugh.
Why not? It's better than being pissed off or angry or insulting.
But this is much better news than me logging onto BBI and seeing that he signed for 5 years 75 million.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
That's a genuinely terrible way to manage the situation. You can likely sign a long-term, reasonable-to-exit after year 3 deal with near the amount of guaranteed money on a 5/75M deal. 5/75/40gtd with the cap hit spread over terms is orders of magnitude better for the cap and the overall finances for the organization.
when he was tagged and eventually signed a new 4 year, $25 million deal with $13 guaranteed.
Quote:
"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
Quote:
"Both parties are happy to get a long-term deal done," Giants general manager Jerry Reese said. "Now Brandon can totally concentrate on the offseason program and get himself ready to go this fall."
That deal was signed 2 weeks after he was tagged, and 2 days before free agency started. I would imagine that we will see something similar, with similar quotes from JPP and Reese. They will come to an agreement and the Giants will be sure to structure it to give them a chance to make more noise in free agency. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ef0325/printable/giants-sign-rb-jacobs-to-fouryear-25-mil_1 - ( New Window )
Matt,
When I see that you have posted on BBI my eyes light up. No disrespect to everyone else but you by far are my favorite member here.
You are smart and have clearity in your thoughts.
I agree that this will get done and both sides will be happy.
JPP cannot play 'mediocre' on the tag & wait till next year to cash in
est1986 : 8:29 pm : link : reply
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal.
If he signs the tag, he is getting paid 17M for two games against Chicago and Cleveland....how did he play in those 10 other games? He doesn't have to dog it....he just has to play for stats....think he won't try to avoid injury? Think he will take chances? He can have a year with good stats, and get his big pay day with one less year on his multiyear deal, with the Giants basically paying the first year at 17M....
So now it is imperative, to sign him, and get some of that 17M back for other moves......but it has to be done before the 9th....all this talk of restructuring contracts, people forget that was the cause for not resigning the likes of Bennett and Joseph, because we were in cap hell...
I feel the offense will be getting the short stick again this year.....better hope that Reese hits a home run on his first 4 picks....
but he just has to play for they stats, so which is it? And this 2 good game myth is just that. And if it wasn't a myth wouldn't other teams know he only played well in2 games or is it just the Giants who are privy to that info?
to say the least. Great player vs. injury prone vs. show up big against bad teams vs. blew his fingers off. There is reason for the wide range of opinion on this guy.
RE: RE: Remember these quotes from Brandon Jacobs in 2009
when he was tagged and eventually signed a new 4 year, $25 million deal with $13 guaranteed.
Quote:
"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
Quote:
"Both parties are happy to get a long-term deal done," Giants general manager Jerry Reese said. "Now Brandon can totally concentrate on the offseason program and get himself ready to go this fall."
That deal was signed 2 weeks after he was tagged, and 2 days before free agency started. I would imagine that we will see something similar, with similar quotes from JPP and Reese. They will come to an agreement and the Giants will be sure to structure it to give them a chance to make more noise in free agency. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ef0325/printable/giants-sign-rb-jacobs-to-fouryear-25-mil_1 - ( New Window )
Matt,
When I see that you have posted on BBI my eyes light up. No disrespect to everyone else but you by far are my favorite member here.
You are smart and have clearity in your thoughts.
I agree that this will get done and both sides will be happy.
Matt is a terrific poster. He knows the Giants history and present day modus operandi. Matt speaks the truth.
I guess that shoots the free agent O-line solution out of the water ...
We better have one hell of a draft.
Read through the thread. The idea that this "shoots the free agent O-line solution out of the water" has been proven false. The only thing stopping the Giants from improving the OL via free agency is the scarcity of talent available and the possibility that the value the Giants put on them will not equal cost. The biggest free agent contract for an OL will likely go to Kevin Zeitler and if the Giants think he is worth that kind of money, they can easily create the cap room to make it happen. The best TE on the market is Jack Doyle and the Giants will have the money to sign him as well, assuming they think he is worth the money. And they can sign a vet WR once the dust settles on the first round or two of free agency and there are solid #2 WR's (maybe someone like Robert Woods) looking for a one-year deal to improve their stock and return to free agency next year (if the Giants are happy with Sterling Shepard, it doesn't make sense to sign a vet WR to a longterm deal).
...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
Simple to do yes, but it also pushes more dead money into future years; which can be a bad thing.
It's only dead money if they release Eli before his contract is up. Meanwhile, they don't give up the future leverage to JPP that would come from any longterm deal he signed. Which of the two are you more likely to regret giving up leverage to, Eli or JPP?
Not just dead money, it raises Eli's cap hit in each of those years if he is still on the team; which limits what the Giants can do in the future from a FA perspective, and also makes its difficult to move in a new direction if Eli's skills erode to an unacceptable level or if he is hurt (look at the Romo situation in Dallas where they restructured his contract and now want to move in a new direction).
deal done. That more than anything made it clear how fleeting success in this industry can be. Tagging him is the strategy that will get to a long-term deal with the Giants. Obviously the Giants want to get to one. This is the only way to get there other than to let a guy go into free agency and then outbid everyone else which is a low probability outcome.
Hopefully they get to a fair deal for both. If not possible, then they might rescind the tag at some point.
Not just dead money, it raises Eli's cap hit in each of those years if he is still on the team; which limits what the Giants can do in the future from a FA perspective, and also makes its difficult to move in a new direction if Eli's skills erode to an unacceptable level or if he is hurt (look at the Romo situation in Dallas where they restructured his contract and now want to move in a new direction).
The Giants are highly unlikely to move on from Eli after this season, and probably not very likely to move on from him after next. That's two years to balance out that cap hit (which IIRC the cap lets you spread out over 3 max). It's probably more likely that they'd have to cut JPP within the next 3 years than Eli. I don't think they're losing too much if they have to convert some of Eli's contract to guaranteed money in order to offset the FT on JPP. The difference in what they might be able to sign him for via the cap vs. letting him compete on the open market is probably well worth it.
hopefully something gets done in the next week to free up some money for FA. If not, have a backup plan to free up some cash (cut Thomas, maybe re-do DRC, maybe re-do Harris, etc).
IMO, Manning has been and always should be a last resort when it comes to finding money. (See: Dallas)
but I don't think it is a good investment to lock up that much money in a 28 year old player with a history of back problems who is likely a descending player. I would have rather use that money to upgrade the O-line, which is the biggest need on the team. I would have drafted an edge rusher in round 1 and signed a veteran stop gap (Julius Peppers, etc). If JPP signed elsewhere and got a big contract, we would likely also get a 3rd round or 4th (at worst) pick as compensation next year. Just my opinion.
...always something to consider but let's be honest his back surgery was years ago and appears to have been quite successful. He has missed playing time since then but a sports hernia and blown up hand aren't issues you expect to be chronic lol.
As far as spending the money on the O-line we have enough cap flexibility to do both. It's been discussed on multiple threads.
The decision to tender JPP the tag was an ownership decision
and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
RE: The decision to tender JPP the tag was an ownership decision
and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
RE: RE: The decision to tender JPP the tag was an ownership decision
and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
You are probably right. Garafolo is full of shit.
RE: RE: RE: The decision to tender JPP the tag was an ownership decision
and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
You are probably right. Garafolo is full of shit.
Garafalo doesn't have to be full of shit. It could simply be management using him in their "good cop bad cop" negotiating tactic.
have been in synch for a while. Just my gut feeling but I don't think Mara is overriding any of his decisions unless its a character scenario like a Josh Brown, Will Hill, etc (and even then I'm guessing Reese would be in agreement).
why is it so hard to conceive that they changed their mind though? that's what really irritates me about JPP haters. life is f#cked up. mistakes happen. the guy is a shining example of someone who had something terrible happen and overcame tremendous adversity to not only play again but dominate.
the fact he returned to the field 3 or 4 months after blowing half his hand off (and then returning to the field 2 series later after the bone in his middle finger popped out of the skin vs. the Pats) makes Ronnie Lott's sound like Girl Scout Cookies. it was a miracle he returned that quickly and was that effective.
he is exactly the type of guy you make a cornerstone player and hopefully his miraculous actions since the accident have changed Mara's mind if those were indeed his thoughts.
it's bigger than football - it's life. why some people can't forgive him or respect what he's doing is just low character.
and I buy the story line. At the end of the 2015 season, Mara was making himself available for interviews to take the flak for the disappointing year. When asked on WFAN if Giants wanted JPP back, he said "Certainly" and was ready with a stat about the number of pressures JPP had. He didn't say "that will be up to our general manager, Jerry Reese."
Giants were much more generous to Cruz last year than they had to be. If JPP's agents are smart, they will realize that it is very likely he will get his best offer from the Giants. And that means from John Mara, in particular.
They seemed to have their feelings hurt when they were given a much lower offer than they expected (Tuck) or when another received a contract extension before they did (Nicks). This includes Steve Smith and Manningham.
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
They seemed to have their feelings hurt when they were given a much lower offer than they expected (Tuck) or when another received a contract extension before they did (Nicks). This includes Steve Smith and Manningham.
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
The Giants keep the players that they consider core players. The players who they don't consider core players get low-ball offers (i.e, Manningham, Bennett, Boss, etc) which the Giants know damn well they will reject. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who left despite the Giants making a serious push to keep them.
If JPP is not signed before or on March 9th, that's 17M we are not able to negotiate with.....the best players will be taken right away, and then Reese will be dumpster diving again....his only hope is to have a great draft, but even that sometimes takes a few years to develop into something special....
You guys make it sound like players are lining up to play for the Giants, who are not going to be able to compete with teams with more cap dollars....
What we have here is, it's ok to spend 17M for one position, and yet we want a player to play at a high level for vet min....it's not going to happen....
I actually think that the non-exclusive tag helps the Giants
What using this particular tag does is it allows JPP's agent to shop the Giants offer to all the other teams. Thus, JPP gets his chance to gather what other teams would be able to offer him.
The downside for JPP is that in order to accept a better offer, he will have to convince that team to give up TWO first round picks to the Giants for him. Given that the word is that this is going to be a deep draft and perhaps extraordinary at certain positions, not many teams will be willing to go there, even for JPP.
That gives the Giants enormous leverage- either JPP signs on their terms or he plays under the tag. Few teams can give up a 1st rounder this year AND next- as well as have the cap space to make a major offer.
Right now, teams who can make a major offer would include the Browns, 49ers, Bucs, Jags, Titans, Colts, Pats, Bears and maybe the Raiders- and even if we went farther into teams that might spend on one FA- the Broncos, Bengals, Packers, Dolphins and Vikes. I think the 49ers, Bears, Jags can immediately be ignored, as they can't afford to give up top 5 picks for JPP.
The Titans have the 5th and 18th- they COULD give up the 18th and next year's pick- but have many needs. The Bucs can't be ruled out with the #19 pick and hoping for an even lower pick next year.
The Browns could give up the #12 pick and next year's pick- but that could be the #1 overall pick next year too- and they know it.
The Skins would probably LOVE to steal JPP from the Giants, but they already have a QB problem- and giving big $$ to JPP probably makes the Cousins problem impossible to solve. The Pats don't like to give out bigs deals in FA. The Raiders probably need to prepare for a monster extension for their QB.
The Colts are a possibility too, with the #14/15 pick (depending on coin flip). However, they have to spend on their OL to protect Luck- and that will likely eat up most of their cap space. The Broncos might be in the same boat- and may need to spend on Romo. The Bengals would have to give up pick #9- might be too high a price.
The Packers could give up #29 and next year's pick- but run a different defense than the Giants and might not be a great fit.
Thus, looking realistically at the potential JPP market, his options could include the Browns, Titans, Bucs, Packers- and MAYBE the Broncos and Colts. However, I think that as FA shakes out, most of those teams will use their cap space to sign multiple players at need spots and the money will dry up.
In the end, I think it will come down to the Giants and the Browns.
RE: RE: A number of Giants have left for greener pastures during Reese era.
They seemed to have their feelings hurt when they were given a much lower offer than they expected (Tuck) or when another received a contract extension before they did (Nicks). This includes Steve Smith and Manningham.
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
The Giants keep the players that they consider core players. The players who they don't consider core players get low-ball offers (i.e, Manningham, Bennett, Boss, etc) which the Giants know damn well they will reject. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who left despite the Giants making a serious push to keep them.
I didn't say that the Giants made a big push to keep them. But the Giants did offer them contracts which turned out to be little or nothing better than the Giant offers, and the player walked.
I can see where Tuck had a right to feel slighted, only 30 years old, major contributor to two rings, coming off an 11 sack, 7 tackles for a loss, 2 forced fumbles and a pick. But he should have not let his emotions get out of hand and leave for the Raiders of all teams.
(Yeah, I know, it's a business, Tuck's stats weren't as good as they looked, too old to pay him that much, etc.)
This comment is not about whether the Giants should have let Tuck walk when they wouldn't come up on their offer, but whether Tuck should have swallowed his pride and stayed. I think that JPP is in a similar situation.
But, since you bring it up, how did that work out, letting all those 2011 guys go a year earlier instead of a year late and just retaining the "core" players.
I didn't say that the Giants made a big push to keep them. But the Giants did offer them contracts which turned out to be little or nothing better than the Giant offers, and the player walked.
The Giants offered low-ball contracts and the players signed for much better money on the open market. Of course, without being a fly on the wall, we don't know what the Giants offered but Martellus Bennett talked about getting no love from the Giants and Boss would've stayed if the Giants came anywhere close to what the Raiders were offering. I think Reese even said he didn't blame Boss for taking the Raiders offer over the Giants.
With none of them did we ever hear of the Giants making any effort to counter opposing offers.
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This comment is not about whether the Giants should have let Tuck walk when they wouldn't come up on their offer, but whether Tuck should have swallowed his pride and stayed. I think that JPP is in a similar situation.
Tuck was already past his prime and he wasn't tagged, so I'm not sure I see the similarity you're getting at.
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But, since you bring it up, how did that work out, letting all those 2011 guys go a year earlier instead of a year late and just retaining the "core" players.
It's not like the Giants would've won another Super Bowl (or any additional games for that matter) had they kept Manningham and Nicks. It worked out fine.
But this is much better news than me logging onto BBI and seeing that he signed for 5 years 75 million. Totally agree.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
That's a genuinely terrible way to manage the situation. You can likely sign a long-term, reasonable-to-exit after year 3 deal with near the amount of guaranteed money on a 5/75M deal. 5/75/40gtd with the cap hit spread over terms is orders of magnitude better for the cap and the overall finances for the organization.
I don't worry too much about JR and the Giants FO on these types of things. My reading of the tea leaves is with the Giants want to sign JPP to a long term deal camp. I hope that's the case b/c I'm definitely down with JPP.
I think its funny how some folks here think that JPP would have like two speeds: I'm going balls to the wall on this down so I get a big contract next year, and, nah, I'm playing it safe on this down so as not to get hurt before my big contract next year. Maybe, but I don't think this is exactly how it works.
who is on a defense with a bunch of other very good players, do the guys that the Giants let go after significant time spent on the team (i.e., excluding Cameron Wake, Ryan Grant, etc.) usually flourish?
That may sound like a pointed question, but I'm actually curious. (I suppose Martellus also did pretty well.)
but put me down as JPP not being as important as Hankins.
JPP is very replaceable, either by an edge rushing LB or a corner that can buy his replacement more time combined with the inside rush.
I'm hoping someone offers us 2 #1's for JPP or works out a trade. He's just not that good.
You are going to replace JPP with an edge LB? :D
His greatest strength is that he can not only rush the passer but seal the edge against the run. You aren't getting that with some rookie 3-4 edge rusher.
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
RE: It's not just about whether JPP is a better player than Hankins
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Logan Ryan won't solve that.
JPP played in the first Green Bay game...we all watched that embarrassment. I'm not sure I would use the second half of the Green Bay game as a good example.
JPP is a key player for The Giants...I'm not questioning that...but I'm not sure he is worth big money at the same time...
When it comes to Hank...I thought we all would have learned our lesson...when they let LJ walk...
I thought Snacks and Hanks complemented each other's game very well...
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Logan Ryan won't solve that.
JPP played in the first Green Bay game...we all watched that embarrassment. I'm not sure I would use the second half of the Green Bay game as a good example.
JPP is a key player for The Giants...I'm not questioning that...but I'm not sure he is worth big money at the same time...
When it comes to Hank...I thought we all would have learned our lesson...when they let LJ walk...
I thought Snacks and Hanks complemented each other's game very well...
the defense played fine the first GB game even without a pass rush , or at least well enough to win.
the 3rd down they gave up on 3rd and 10 late in the 4th was bad, but otherwise holding GB to 23 points, 6 in the 2nd half should be good enough to win.
The Giants offense failure in the red zone is what killed them that game, and was also a factor in the WC playoff game too, but the defense in the 2nd half was swiss cheese and the Hail Mary changed the whole complexion of the game.
And I disagree on Hankins. He's a nice player, but I think he's sort of duplicitous with Snacks, just not as good, next to Snacks the Giants needs a DT who can get consistent pressure (like Hankins did in 2014 - his best season - but hasn't shown that ability since).
I have never been a huge JPP fan...not from the start.
I'm sure some of my personal bias gets in the way when it comes to him and big money...I see JPP as a Me First guy...
When they let LJ walk...it left a huge gap until Hanks was drafted...that stuck with me...I viewed it as a short sighted move by Reese.
There is no right or wrong in cases like this
I agree no right or wrong.
I don't get much into the off-field stuff with these guys but once JPP blew his hand up I have been paying attention, and who knows with these athletes what is real and what is lip service, but when he talks about his re-dedication and focus and his appreciation for life (and dealing with his disabled father), I find it credible.
I don't know if he was selfish or a bully or whatever before, but he seems like a solid teammate now and I think he's a player who goes underappreciated.
Look at his PD (passes defensed) he bats down balls at the line, is stout against the run, and has enough pure power to be good enough rushing the passer. He never really developed technique like Strahan for example, but his speed and strength still allow him to be effective.
He's a rare breed in the NFL and the Giants have tried to get players to play opposite him with Damontre Moore, Owa Odi, etc. but none seem to be the right fit.
Replacing him will prove even more difficult IMO.
RE: It's not just about whether JPP is a better player than Hankins
How many games is JPP likely to play under this new contract? Is JPP the best use of his large cap number?
The money is better spent elsewhere.
That's just false. The money might be better spent elsewhere and even then we don't know if that player or collection of players are even available.
In your world there are 2-3 free agents readily waiting for the Giants to call and they will take reasonable contracts, play like madmen while eclipsing JPP's output and collectively earn the same total money that jpp would have earned here. That scenario is nice and dreamy but not likely. It's littered with pitfalls.
It's pretty incredible how some people are convinced
that JPP is a selfish, lazy, me-first player, and yet the team has, given three distinct opportunities to separate from him, have stood by him and attempted to get him signed long term.
It's almost like we don't know what we're watching.
Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
Lol... right. Logan Ryan will cure everything. And the Giants will make Ryan their highest paid player, and the Giants will have not one not two not three but four investments at corner. And no pass rush and no DEs save for Vernon.
AND MY favorite part of this is how we just assume Ryan will sign here in the first place. Because the number one hilarious assumption from many fans is any and every FA would sign with their team if the stupid ass GM of said team would just call the guy up and offer him a deal. Lock stock done am I right ?.
What happens in this fantasy when Ryan signs with Atlanta ? The. What? Jpp is already on a plane to Washington... now what? Bye bye good defense hello 8-8.
I'd rather have no pass rush + $15 million in cap space.
People talk about risk...there is no bigger risk than allocating enormous money in a player that has played 1 full season in five years. So yeah let's double down on that.
Whether or not we use the money for Logan Ryan or anyone else, paying JPP like a cornerstone piece is bad business. Period. Saying otherwise is homer bullshit.
I'd rather have no pass rush + $15 million in cap space.
People talk about risk...there is no bigger risk than allocating enormous money in a player that has played 1 full season in five years. So yeah let's double down on that.
Whether or not we use the money for Logan Ryan or anyone else, paying JPP like a cornerstone piece is bad business. Period. Saying otherwise is homer bullshit.
Oh that's right the pass rush sucked the second half of the season. Except it didn't. It was one of the league's best based on pressures and hits and I believe even sacks. Remember the pass rush sack totals were extremely low after the first 6 games or so. This was an anomaly. And even if the passrush wasn't good the DL as a whole player terrific ball all year long. They DOMINATED the running game. But keep on hammering the bullshit that "the pass rush sucked" what total horse shit.
Oh by the way your boy Logan had 2 meaily ints all year long. You wanna make him an outside FA a cornerstone of this D when he only has 2 kicks all year long??? I don't profess to know the value of a pass defended stat but picks are picks. It's all about the picks. He ain't worth it. How good can he be if he only got 2 picks??? Can't be that good...
Had to be done if they were not close.
We all knew it was coming...and yes you were one of them.
Agreed. Almost laughable the amount of penny pinchers around here who thought they could replace JPP with quantity and not quality.
Great Job Jerry and CO.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
I wish the Giants could have come to an agreement with JPP rather than restricting him.
Giants expected to use franchise tag on Jason Pierre-Paul by Wednesday if two sides cannot reach long-term deal by then, per league sources.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
Agree to disagree. This is the move to make, especially if they couldn't get him to sign a cheaper deal prior. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he played a year out on the FT (though unlikely). He's historically been a guy that has shown up when most motivated. Giving him big, guaranteed money for many years is a bad idea. Overpaying JPP for one year while mending a young pass-rusher wouldn't be awful.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
I don't agree at all. JPP wants financial security. He is not going to risk that playing on a tag when he can get $40 million Guaranteed.
Clue: "KABOOM!"
His leverage comes by signing the tender and then he has leverage to negotiate a long term deal.
Of course I want JPP back and we're just operating within the rules. But I don't like the optuon
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
Giants have plenty of leverage. They may not want JPP to play on the FT, but I doubt JPP and his side wants it either. Most of the "premium" FAs are 26-27 when they hit the market and if JPP plays 2017 on the tag, he'll then be 29 when he hits it next offseason. That's going to significantly impact the # of long term deals he gets as teams will be wary of paying big money to a player on the wrong side of 30. Much more risk than paying a 26 year old Vernon just hitting his prime.
Smart move IMO.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
I don't see it like that at all. Giants have most of the leverage, IMO. Whats the worst case scenario? JPP has an awesome season and earns a big payday? That's good news for our season chances and the Giants will still have the opportunity to pay him next year. At the end of the day, we want JPP on the 2017 NY Giants and he is going to be on the team. He will have to perform at a very high level to get a huge payday next offseason. JPP knows how quick it can be over. He busted his ass and earned this payday. Too much risk for him to play on a 1 year deal.
Good move.
Non-exclusive apparently.
Let's fucking go
Good move.
Whatever the situation is or will become, one thing was certain. The Cowboys had zero chance to sign JPP. Lots of other teams could but not the Cowboys.
Can't imagine JR making a mistake
2) If no deal is reached by July 15th, then the team can not sign him to a long term contract. The only option for both JPP and the Giants is to play on the one year tender.
3) If July 15th passes, do not expect JPP to sign the tender until after training camp. The team can't fine him for missing training camp, and he has no obligation to expose himself to injury as the value of the tender is the same whether he shows up for training camp or whether he signs the tender on the eve of the beginning of the regular season.
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
Not if they can get JPP signed long term
Of course I want JPP back and we're just operating within the rules. But I don't like the optuon
ITA on all fronts. Had to do it, but it sucks for the players.
I like the move. I guess the deal wasn't getting done before free agency.
Including Raanan who said I was 100% wrong on this. Sorry Jordan...
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Non-exclusive apparently.
That is the most relevant question. JPP can either negotiate with other teams or he can't, and the Giants can potentially get compensation or they can't.
I hope it's the NEFT, and I have been banging that drum from day one, similar to Cousins in DC. The market will set itself and worst case the Giants get some picks.
He can play one year on the tag, skip OTA's etc, and camp and have a decent season and get a long-term deal next year.
Additionally the 17M on this year's cap hamstrings the Giants effort to bring in other players and fill other holes.
Anyone who thinks the Giants have leverage here is mistaken IMO.
The Giants do not want JPP to play on the FT. It will be hard to improve the team the way they want to.
^^^ This
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
Please get a long term deal done.
Meanwhile the Giants probably tell JPP we're gonna get this done but we have to use the FT to keep negotiations exclusive. I doubt any of this was a surprise to him or his agent. They will lock him up no doubt in my mind.
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to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
They need to cut JT Thomas already and save us 3 million
JPP wants as much upmfront as possible. He screwed up. He should have had the cash two years ago. IIRC the guanrantee then offered by 30 million. Think of the way he could have made the money work for him if he invested wiselyb. Money today is worth more than money tomorrow. I'd give him a 5 year deal with a lot of cash guarantees. The. assume by then Eli is gone and they will have a young cap controlled QB who won't cost them 25 million per year. That way if he's cooked by 33 you can eat the last year.
Now I just hope we can retain Hankins at a reasonable cost, although I find it hard to believe that will be the case.
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to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
The $34 million number was before they franchised JPP and agreed to pay him $17 million this year. That's half of the $34 million we had. So, now, it's more like $17.5 million.
But like you said, they can still restructure some contracts and stuff like that. But who knows how much that will actually increase our available money for this FA period.
This ties up $17M of cap space, which limits what we an do in FA. So no Hankins, and look for maybe one big FA, and the rest second tier FAs.
If JPP is unhappy, then I could see him sitting out camp, preseason, etc., and reporting just in time for the regular season.
Doing this to keep options open is fine, but I hope Reese doesn't give him Vernon money if he signs.
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to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
My feelings on this are well known and have been stated over and over on here since the season ended. I do not wish to and won't revisit my feelings on this except to say, if the tag stands the Giants will regret not being able to fix the O with difference-makers..Poor Eli..Cross your fingers that we ace the draft..Again, let's hope a contract is at hand..Nothing more to say
I wonder if JPP and Cousins will play another year on the tag for their respective teams, and then leave because a third year would be too expensive.
This doesn't hamper them in any real way.
Two years later they were out on the street while still young enough to have had a few more productive years ahead of them. The contracts that they had signed with their new team were only a little if at all better than what the Giants offered.
With so much money at stake, the player can't afford to let his emotions rule. Your family team, the one that drafted you, is more likely to be patient with you if you're productivity isn't up to expectations right away.
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In comment 13372957 Big Blue '56 said:
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to a contract with him, otherwise they're flucking morons! Bye-bye, Offensive improvements of any note...😡😤
what the heck makes you say this?
Current Projected Top 51 Cap Space: $34.5M
if they cut 1 or 2;restrcuture 1 or 2...its like 40 mil
My feelings on this are well known and have been stated over and over on here since the season ended. I do not wish to and won't revisit my feelings on this except to say, if the tag stands the Giants will regret not being able to fix the O with difference-makers..
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
ONLY if they do..I want to hear from the cap experts like Optimus and some others as to how we can improve the O qualitatively if we're stuck with the cap..Most of us are just talking out of our arses, imo
The inevitable release of J.T. Thomas creates another $3M in cap space.
The inevitable release of J.T. Thomas creates another $3M in cap space.
--Sign Zeitler to a 5 year $55M contract that includes a $25M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $6M.
--Sign Doyle to a 5 year $30M contract that includes a $15M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $4M.
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...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
Simple to do yes, but it also pushes more dead money into future years; which can be a bad thing.
Estimates are that the salary cap will rise by 11 to 16 million this year per team.
When people here are stating how much under the salary cap the Giants are, are they taking into account this year's increase?
This is fantastic news! If it makes GoTerps squirm, I'm on board. Means it's the right move. Next up, extend Beckham and watch GoTerps officially go off the deep end. Things are looking up, people!
How much is his back-up making? Because with Pugh, you aren't just paying one salary to fill a position. You have to pay 2 players to fill his role as he will inevitably be hurt - either his quad hurts, his knee hurts, or he has a headache.
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But if he's tagged this year can he be tagged again next year and if so then the Gmen just move on from him
They can apply the tag again next year, but if JPP were to wind up playing the year under the franchise tag, in all likelihood it would be his last in a Giants uniform.
They already franchise tagged him. Can they do it a third time?
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
How much of that $23 million is guaranteed?
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...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
The inevitable release of J.T. Thomas creates another $3M in cap space.
Now take that $11M in cap room I just created for you and...
--Sign Zeitler to a 5 year $55M contract that includes a $25M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $6M.
--Sign Doyle to a 5 year $30M contract that includes a $15M signing bonus and $1M salary in year one, giving him a 2017 cap hit of $4M.
We are not signing Doyle. We will draft a TE early IMO. We will sign a WR before we sign a TE.
Warford would be a cheaper upgrade to Jerry at RG.
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This is fantastic news! If it makes GoTerps squirm, I'm on board. Means it's the right move. Next up, extend Beckham and watch GoTerps officially go off the deep end. Things are looking up, people!
Lmao
Why?
On the one hand because JPP doesn't want to have the franchise tag on him for multiple reasons. He'd rather not play on a one year deal in case of injury which could happen on any play. Even if he doesn't sign the tag and comes in late. Which itself isn't ideal because the longer he stays out the less of the $17M he'll earn. That type of scorched Earth negotiation really makes no sense.
The team doesn't want all $17M tied up in our cap for one season instead of spreading it over a deal with a lower AAV affording us the flexibility for greater improvement of the roster for 2017. A season where each additional upgrade could be the tipping point in winning a title imo.
If both sides have something to lose that's the definition of shared leverage.
I'm sure JPP doesn't and won't like it, but the Giants made the proper move for the organization. And I have a feeling they will work something out long term when it's all said and done.
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But if he's tagged this year can he be tagged again next year and if so then the Gmen just move on from him
They can apply the tag again next year, but if JPP were to wind up playing the year under the franchise tag, in all likelihood it would be his last in a Giants uniform.
Are you sure about that? I thought a player could only be tagged twice in his lifetime.
Wow. Tagging him thrice would be so cold blooded and yet maybe the best strategy.
It might set a bad precedent and kill morale though.
On the third tag, regardless of position, it becomes the franchise tag rate for QBs. And for QBs, ithe third tagging is a 44% increase over the previous year's salary.
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lol now I've read everything.
Really? Of all the things written on BBI throughout the years, this is what pushed you to believe that you've now read everything? Believe it or not, JPP became a leader in the locker room this past year.
On BBI, JPP is a lazy loser who isn't worth paying more than average starter money.
You can usually tell simply by watching the sights and sounds tapes and reading the beat writer content. The names would probably surprise people. It won't save him from being released, but JPP and JT Thomas were certainly locker room leaders.
I think it costs a lot more if you franchise a player the second consecutive year.
You can usually tell simply by watching the sights and sounds tapes and reading the beat writer content. The names would probably surprise people. It won't save him from being released, but JPP and JT Thomas were certainly locker room leaders.
This. JPP is clearly a leader. And this may come as a surprise to those who think they have a good handle on the team figured out but...JPP will probably be a Giant for life. And based on the numbers other teams could potentially throw at him, those empowered to make decisions in the NFL place a far higher value on him than posters do on here.
Lol.
I always get a kick out of it when someone questions another's intelligence, yet doesn't seem to know the proper words to use in trying to make their point.
A pulled hamstring would have an effect on the next 4-6 weeks but it could affect it even further.
Giants can guarantee him say $40 million in a multi year deal or he can risk hat guaranteed money for $17 million. He's risking $23 million plus by playing on the 1 year deal.
That's a risk for the player. A big one. And gives the team leverage to sign him for less per year.
This. Every move comes with a risk. Tagging him wasnt my favorite option of the three but only if the Giants and jpp don't come to a multi year agreement. What this tells me is the Giants aren't going to offer jpp 50 million in guaranteed. If they were jpp would he signed long term already.
I was just thinking today that if the Giants didn't tag JPP he'd be playing for another team in 2017. I had convinced myself of this. At least it appears that won't unless the two parties go nuts and the tag gets recscinded.
Cooler heads will prevail on this one. JPP will be pissed, but he will recognize this is a business. At the end of the day, he wants a long term deal to give him some stability. The Giants will come to him with a fair deal and work something out. It's in both sides best interest to come to an agreement. All the Giants did was ensure he comes back and doesn't get to shop the offer around and drive up the price tag.
"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
That deal was signed 2 weeks after he was tagged, and 2 days before free agency started. I would imagine that we will see something similar, with similar quotes from JPP and Reese. They will come to an agreement and the Giants will be sure to structure it to give them a chance to make more noise in free agency.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ef0325/printable/giants-sign-rb-jacobs-to-fouryear-25-mil_1 - ( New Window )
I agree with it in part, but it ignores the massive risk he takes from a health perspective. Say he gets a 4 year $48 million deal with $25-$30 million guaranteed after the 2017 season; is the chance of getting an extra $2-$7 million (assuming he gets $40 million guaranteed now) worth the risk?
It seems like a very foolish decision by a guy who already made a foolish decision which by all accounts he learned from.
It seems like a very foolish decision by a guy who already made a foolish decision which by all accounts he learned from.
I think his agent is playing all his cards but will know when to fold. At least I sure hope so.
If necessary the Giants can offset the $17M by monkeying with existing contracts.
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if JPP was playing for his first big pay day IMO.
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
first, to clarify, I never said the Giants shouldn't do it. They really have no choice other than getting into a bidding war with teams with 80 - 100M in cap space. Or lose him for potential comp pick.
Also, JPP wants a long-term contract with 50+M guaranteed, but that doesn't give the Giants leverage IMO.
It would give them leverage over a player who hasn't earned as much and is desperate, they all know the stats, average career is 3 years, average career earnings is like $5M.
JPP is not in that class, but it's not to say he wants to magnanimously offer a hometown discount - I never suggested that. He has value he thinks he's earned.
The cap limits the Giants MORE than it influences JPP IMO.
Second, the Giants have 31.5M not 34M in cap space as people have said. Over the cap, linked below is more accurate than sport trac.
After JPP (17.5) and the rookies (6) it leaves $8M for all other signings.
That hurts the Giants more than JPP.
Sure they could cut more players or restructure others, but fact is they are doing that, if they do it, because JPP is on the tag - that means JPP has the leverage.
Also, to address a final point, the difference between the 17.5 and what JPP could cost on the cap on a LT deal could be as much as 10M or more depending on how they structure the contract. His cap hit could be minimal in 2017 and escalate in years 2 and 3 for example.
Giants leverage is very limited. the downside for JPP is oh well I get $17.5M for this one year, and he only needs to be average and not suffer a career ending injury to get a guaranteed 30M+ next year and come out ahead a year later. downside for the Giants is a cap situation they restructure someone (kicking the can down the road), cut someone they don't really want to cut, or not sign someone else they really want to sign.
Doesn't seem like "Giants in the drivers seat" like many of you make it sound.
but again, they had no choice here.
Giants cap space - ( New Window )
His 2015 tag was rescinded anyway, so it would have been irrelevant even in 2016
This.
What are people talking about re: "he will just play mediocre"? Why? What value does he get from doing that? Injury risk and lower market value?
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If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal. Win, win. Giants can't lose here with JPP. Ill be interested to see what that asshats say about our FA targets this year. All in NOW IMO.
This.
What are people talking about re: "he will just play mediocre"? Why? What value does he get from doing that? Injury risk and lower market value?
This is the same logic that had certain people on here claim Hakeem Nicks was intentionally dogging it and not running routes or catching passes in a contract year. Complete nonsense.
Ok, I'll give in on this point, he can't be really mediocre, but he doesn't need to be much better than that because of free agency. Not many players hit free agency, so if he plays even a little above mediocre, he's likely to be one of the top free agents available.
that is my point. And he'll be 29 when he signs his next contract (if he plays on the tag),
Michael Bennett, a decent comp, at 31 signed 3 years 30M, (2 years older than JPP will be and not exactly mediocre, but not a super star when he signed the contract)
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
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which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
More likely you don't understand it.
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In comment 13372953 pjcas18 said:
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if JPP was playing for his first big pay day IMO.
What the downside for him? Sign the tag, play the season be awful or injured and "only" have made over $50M in your NFL career? That's got to be the top 1% of NFL player and more than almost every one on this site will make in their lifetimes.
Boo hoo, poor JPP.
No player says they want to play on the tag, but the ones who dislike it the most are those coming off a 4 year 2.5M contract.
I don't see either side wanting this.
Giants have (according to OTC who I trust) 31M and change in cap space.
JPP eats up 17.5 leaving $14M. $6M or so for rookies, leaves $8M to fill the rest of the holes at OL, WR, TE, RB, DT, CB.
I don't see the Giants having leverage.
In fact it forces the Giants to do things like restructure players when they don't want to, or worse release players like DRC or Vereen who maybe aren't quite earning the value of their deal and cutting them could help replace them with lower cost options.
This makes no sense though. If he's so satisfied with the money he's made, why not sign a team friendly long term deal? Reality is that he's made it very clear that he views this as a business decision and is very interested in a big pay day. You are looking st this completely backwards.
first, to clarify, I never said the Giants shouldn't do it. They really have no choice other than getting into a bidding war with teams with 80 - 100M in cap space. Or lose him for potential comp pick.
Also, JPP wants a long-term contract with 50+M guaranteed, but that doesn't give the Giants leverage IMO.
It would give them leverage over a player who hasn't earned as much and is desperate, they all know the stats, average career is 3 years, average career earnings is like $5M.
JPP is not in that class, but it's not to say he wants to magnanimously offer a hometown discount - I never suggested that. He has value he thinks he's earned.
The cap limits the Giants MORE than it influences JPP IMO.
Second, the Giants have 31.5M not 34M in cap space as people have said. Over the cap, linked below is more accurate than sport trac.
After JPP (17.5) and the rookies (6) it leaves $8M for all other signings.
That hurts the Giants more than JPP.
Sure they could cut more players or restructure others, but fact is they are doing that, if they do it, because JPP is on the tag - that means JPP has the leverage.
Also, to address a final point, the difference between the 17.5 and what JPP could cost on the cap on a LT deal could be as much as 10M or more depending on how they structure the contract. His cap hit could be minimal in 2017 and escalate in years 2 and 3 for example.
Giants leverage is very limited. the downside for JPP is oh well I get $17.5M for this one year, and he only needs to be average and not suffer a career ending injury to get a guaranteed 30M+ next year and come out ahead a year later. downside for the Giants is a cap situation they restructure someone (kicking the can down the road), cut someone they don't really want to cut, or not sign someone else they really want to sign.
Doesn't seem like "Giants in the drivers seat" like many of you make it sound.
but again, they had no choice here. Giants cap space - ( New Window )
To piggyback on top of what PJ mentioned, the leverage swings to JPP after July 15th. After that date, the Giants can no longer negotiate a long term contract. Their option is JPP signs the 1yr tender or they rescind the tender. If JPP plays on the 1yr tender, then expect that it won't be signed until after training camp. He has no incentive to expose his body to injury during the preseason. The team can not fine a player that is not under contract so there is zero cost to working out on his own in Florida.
If the tender is rescinded, it is ultimately what JPP wants - to be able to sign with any team. Some say the big money will be gone by the time August rolls around. And for some teams that are close to the cap, they would not be able to sign him. But teams like Jax and Cleveland are not going to fully spend the 80 million that they have. If JPP becomes available in August, then he will get his long term contract that he desires.
Forget about any home town discounts. He doesn't owe the Giants anything. He has a ring and is looking for what is likely his last pay day. I hope a long term deal is agreed upon in the next week and it puts all these hypothetical scenarios to rest.
The Giants get a good player at a premium position for at least a year. If they're really far apart you draft his successor.
For the anti-JPP crowd, if he gets hurt again or dogs it you cut ties next year with a zero dollar cap hit. Much better than getting hurt or under performing on a long-term deal with guaranteed money.
His cap hit is probably gonna be on the high end this year tag or no tag. The Giants can't push all his money down the road with big names due for contracts.
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which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
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In comment 13373155 pjcas18 said:
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which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
Likely means Hank is gone,sadly IMHO, and #23 or #55 is a DT.
Unless they've already got something in the bank we don't know.
And I've said this for at least 2 years now: it behooves Eli to make sure he helps to get a LT that keeps him upright in the pocket as long as possible for the next few seasons.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
This indicates to me the Giants 1) were genuinely afraid another team would rock the market with an offer 2) believe they can come to terms.
No way he plays under the tag this year.
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In comment 13373157 adamg said:
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In comment 13373155 pjcas18 said:
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which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
Don't make me laugh.
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In comment 13373172 2ndroundKO said:
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In comment 13373157 adamg said:
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In comment 13373155 pjcas18 said:
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which I clarified in my last post, I was in no way suggesting JPP can dog it. Only that he doesn't need to be selected to all-pro or pro-bowl teams, doesn't need to lead the league in sacks, or do anything extraordinary.
if he plays slightly more than mediocre, as I clarified before, he'll be one the top available free agents, and will get paid.
the comment had nothing to do with Nicks or anything about JPP trying.
Your point is still ridiculous.
Ridiculous? You're being too kind.
Just say you don't understand it, it's ok, not everything is simple.
Don't make me laugh.
Why not? It's better than being pissed off or angry or insulting.
This indicates to me the Giants 1) were genuinely afraid another team would rock the market with an offer 2) believe they can come to terms.
No way he plays under the tag this year.
Pretty much.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
That's a genuinely terrible way to manage the situation. You can likely sign a long-term, reasonable-to-exit after year 3 deal with near the amount of guaranteed money on a 5/75M deal. 5/75/40gtd with the cap hit spread over terms is orders of magnitude better for the cap and the overall finances for the organization.
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"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
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"Both parties are happy to get a long-term deal done," Giants general manager Jerry Reese said. "Now Brandon can totally concentrate on the offseason program and get himself ready to go this fall."
That deal was signed 2 weeks after he was tagged, and 2 days before free agency started. I would imagine that we will see something similar, with similar quotes from JPP and Reese. They will come to an agreement and the Giants will be sure to structure it to give them a chance to make more noise in free agency. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ef0325/printable/giants-sign-rb-jacobs-to-fouryear-25-mil_1 - ( New Window )
Matt,
When I see that you have posted on BBI my eyes light up. No disrespect to everyone else but you by far are my favorite member here.
You are smart and have clearity in your thoughts.
I agree that this will get done and both sides will be happy.
est1986 : 8:29 pm : link : reply
If he plays on the tag he has to dominate if he wants to get that big payday... Who's going to pay for a 7 fingered, 30 year old pass rusher with question marks for the long term??. If he wants to cash in, he takes what the Giants are offering long term NOW or he has to ball out next year and be dominant AND stay healthy while on the tag, which is exactly what we want to see wether he is playing on the tag or in the first year of his multi year deal.
If he signs the tag, he is getting paid 17M for two games against Chicago and Cleveland....how did he play in those 10 other games? He doesn't have to dog it....he just has to play for stats....think he won't try to avoid injury? Think he will take chances? He can have a year with good stats, and get his big pay day with one less year on his multiyear deal, with the Giants basically paying the first year at 17M....
So now it is imperative, to sign him, and get some of that 17M back for other moves......but it has to be done before the 9th....all this talk of restructuring contracts, people forget that was the cause for not resigning the likes of Bennett and Joseph, because we were in cap hell...
I feel the offense will be getting the short stick again this year.....better hope that Reese hits a home run on his first 4 picks....
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when he was tagged and eventually signed a new 4 year, $25 million deal with $13 guaranteed.
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"I was confident all along that this was going to get done. I didn't panic one bit," Jacobs said in a statement released by the team. "I know the reason we did it the way we did; I knew I was going to be here. I was super-confident, and I am here. I'm happy about it."
And from Reese
Quote:
"Both parties are happy to get a long-term deal done," Giants general manager Jerry Reese said. "Now Brandon can totally concentrate on the offseason program and get himself ready to go this fall."
That deal was signed 2 weeks after he was tagged, and 2 days before free agency started. I would imagine that we will see something similar, with similar quotes from JPP and Reese. They will come to an agreement and the Giants will be sure to structure it to give them a chance to make more noise in free agency. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80ef0325/printable/giants-sign-rb-jacobs-to-fouryear-25-mil_1 - ( New Window )
Matt,
When I see that you have posted on BBI my eyes light up. No disrespect to everyone else but you by far are my favorite member here.
You are smart and have clearity in your thoughts.
I agree that this will get done and both sides will be happy.
Matt is a terrific poster. He knows the Giants history and present day modus operandi. Matt speaks the truth.
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All the writers said they wouldn't.
Including Raanan who said I was 100% wrong on this. Sorry Jordan...
You're really insufferable. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I guess that shoots the free agent O-line solution out of the water ...
We better have one hell of a draft.
And it may mean more heads will be chopped (like maybe Vereen, Harris etc.)
I guess that shoots the free agent O-line solution out of the water ...
We better have one hell of a draft.
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In comment 13373021 Milton said:
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...simply by converting Eli's $13M salary into $1M in salary and $12M in bonus money to be amortized over the remaining three years of his contract.
Simple to do yes, but it also pushes more dead money into future years; which can be a bad thing.
It's only dead money if they release Eli before his contract is up. Meanwhile, they don't give up the future leverage to JPP that would come from any longterm deal he signed. Which of the two are you more likely to regret giving up leverage to, Eli or JPP?
Hopefully they get to a fair deal for both. If not possible, then they might rescind the tag at some point.
Not just dead money, it raises Eli's cap hit in each of those years if he is still on the team; which limits what the Giants can do in the future from a FA perspective, and also makes its difficult to move in a new direction if Eli's skills erode to an unacceptable level or if he is hurt (look at the Romo situation in Dallas where they restructured his contract and now want to move in a new direction).
The Giants are highly unlikely to move on from Eli after this season, and probably not very likely to move on from him after next. That's two years to balance out that cap hit (which IIRC the cap lets you spread out over 3 max). It's probably more likely that they'd have to cut JPP within the next 3 years than Eli. I don't think they're losing too much if they have to convert some of Eli's contract to guaranteed money in order to offset the FT on JPP. The difference in what they might be able to sign him for via the cap vs. letting him compete on the open market is probably well worth it.
I do believe the deal will get done at some point. The sooner the better.
Talking about JPP or Pugh?
IMO, Manning has been and always should be a last resort when it comes to finding money. (See: Dallas)
As far as spending the money on the O-line we have enough cap flexibility to do both. It's been discussed on multiple threads.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
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and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
You are probably right. Garafolo is full of shit.
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In comment 13373537 Diver_Down said:
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and not that of Reese. Garafolo was on the morning NFL show and was discussing JPP's situation. He mentioned that Reese was reluctant to tender JPP, but ownership decided to tender JPP.
I'm not sure what the narrative implies. Either Reese's seat is warmer than public perceives and ownership is making the decisions. Or ownership identifies JPP as a face of the franchise and is not willing to let him go. If the latter, then JPP will get what he is asking for and Reese along with Abrams will be given the directive to make it work.
Or it can be bullshit?
You are probably right. Garafolo is full of shit.
the fact he returned to the field 3 or 4 months after blowing half his hand off (and then returning to the field 2 series later after the bone in his middle finger popped out of the skin vs. the Pats) makes Ronnie Lott's sound like Girl Scout Cookies. it was a miracle he returned that quickly and was that effective.
he is exactly the type of guy you make a cornerstone player and hopefully his miraculous actions since the accident have changed Mara's mind if those were indeed his thoughts.
it's bigger than football - it's life. why some people can't forgive him or respect what he's doing is just low character.
Side note: Jacobs was tagged at one point?! I sure as shit don't remember that. Nuts
Giants were much more generous to Cruz last year than they had to be. If JPP's agents are smart, they will realize that it is very likely he will get his best offer from the Giants. And that means from John Mara, in particular.
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In comment 13372942 jeff57 said:
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All the writers said they wouldn't.
Including Raanan who said I was 100% wrong on this. Sorry Jordan...
You're really insufferable. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Stan being Stan - ie, a total douchebag....
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
I guess that shoots the free agent O-line solution out of the water ...
We better have one hell of a draft.
And it may mean more heads will be chopped (like maybe Vereen, Harris etc.)
Why do some of you keep saying this crap? Giants can still add guys that they need. You guys and your cap talk...it never ends.
Giants are better with JPP. Same unit, same goal. There's enough resources to improve the offense this offseason.
Link - ( New Window )
You guys make it sound like players are lining up to play for the Giants, who are not going to be able to compete with teams with more cap dollars....
What we have here is, it's ok to spend 17M for one position, and yet we want a player to play at a high level for vet min....it's not going to happen....
The downside for JPP is that in order to accept a better offer, he will have to convince that team to give up TWO first round picks to the Giants for him. Given that the word is that this is going to be a deep draft and perhaps extraordinary at certain positions, not many teams will be willing to go there, even for JPP.
That gives the Giants enormous leverage- either JPP signs on their terms or he plays under the tag. Few teams can give up a 1st rounder this year AND next- as well as have the cap space to make a major offer.
Right now, teams who can make a major offer would include the Browns, 49ers, Bucs, Jags, Titans, Colts, Pats, Bears and maybe the Raiders- and even if we went farther into teams that might spend on one FA- the Broncos, Bengals, Packers, Dolphins and Vikes. I think the 49ers, Bears, Jags can immediately be ignored, as they can't afford to give up top 5 picks for JPP.
The Titans have the 5th and 18th- they COULD give up the 18th and next year's pick- but have many needs. The Bucs can't be ruled out with the #19 pick and hoping for an even lower pick next year.
The Browns could give up the #12 pick and next year's pick- but that could be the #1 overall pick next year too- and they know it.
The Skins would probably LOVE to steal JPP from the Giants, but they already have a QB problem- and giving big $$ to JPP probably makes the Cousins problem impossible to solve. The Pats don't like to give out bigs deals in FA. The Raiders probably need to prepare for a monster extension for their QB.
The Colts are a possibility too, with the #14/15 pick (depending on coin flip). However, they have to spend on their OL to protect Luck- and that will likely eat up most of their cap space. The Broncos might be in the same boat- and may need to spend on Romo. The Bengals would have to give up pick #9- might be too high a price.
The Packers could give up #29 and next year's pick- but run a different defense than the Giants and might not be a great fit.
Thus, looking realistically at the potential JPP market, his options could include the Browns, Titans, Bucs, Packers- and MAYBE the Broncos and Colts. However, I think that as FA shakes out, most of those teams will use their cap space to sign multiple players at need spots and the money will dry up.
In the end, I think it will come down to the Giants and the Browns.
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They seemed to have their feelings hurt when they were given a much lower offer than they expected (Tuck) or when another received a contract extension before they did (Nicks). This includes Steve Smith and Manningham.
Instead of getting rich contracts and thumbing their nose at the Giants, they found themselves out on the street within a couple of years, when they had several more productive years in them. When we saw the contracts that they has signed with new teams, they were no better or about the same, and often were incentive driven to reach the full amount.
You have a much better chance that your family, who drafted you, will treat you with more patience and respect if your productivity does not start out as had been expected due to injury, or unfamiliarity with scheme and teammates.
The Giants keep the players that they consider core players. The players who they don't consider core players get low-ball offers (i.e, Manningham, Bennett, Boss, etc) which the Giants know damn well they will reject. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who left despite the Giants making a serious push to keep them.
I didn't say that the Giants made a big push to keep them. But the Giants did offer them contracts which turned out to be little or nothing better than the Giant offers, and the player walked.
I can see where Tuck had a right to feel slighted, only 30 years old, major contributor to two rings, coming off an 11 sack, 7 tackles for a loss, 2 forced fumbles and a pick. But he should have not let his emotions get out of hand and leave for the Raiders of all teams.
(Yeah, I know, it's a business, Tuck's stats weren't as good as they looked, too old to pay him that much, etc.)
This comment is not about whether the Giants should have let Tuck walk when they wouldn't come up on their offer, but whether Tuck should have swallowed his pride and stayed. I think that JPP is in a similar situation.
But, since you bring it up, how did that work out, letting all those 2011 guys go a year earlier instead of a year late and just retaining the "core" players.
Except they DID let Tuck walk away before he was done.
But carry on...
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Osi, Strahan, Tuck, Kiwi, JPP - we wont watch any of them walk away until they're done. We collect freak DE's.
Except they DID let Tuck walk away before he was done.
But carry on...
With none of them did we ever hear of the Giants making any effort to counter opposing offers.
Funny that they stayed in the league then...
Obviously, they do move on from the freak DLs you mentioned, bub.
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But this is much better news than me logging onto BBI and seeing that he signed for 5 years 75 million. Totally agree.
I'm telling you the Giants really changed their view on this guy after the fireworks thing. They realized then that he isn't a cornerstone guy to build around.
Let him play this year for 17 million. If you can tag him again next year (as suggested in this thread) then you do that too. JPP is like a Car Lease. You get good value without ever being too locked in when things go wrong. Sure you pay a bit extra without locking him up but it's worth it if you can cut bait immediately if necessary.
That's a genuinely terrible way to manage the situation. You can likely sign a long-term, reasonable-to-exit after year 3 deal with near the amount of guaranteed money on a 5/75M deal. 5/75/40gtd with the cap hit spread over terms is orders of magnitude better for the cap and the overall finances for the organization.
The fact that you seemingly consider yourself a better talent evaluator is laughable.
JPP isn't "special", but Hankins is? Have we been watching the same games?
but put me down as JPP not being as important as Hankins.
JPP is very replaceable, either by an edge rushing LB or a corner that can buy his replacement more time combined with the inside rush.
I'm hoping someone offers us 2 #1's for JPP or works out a trade. He's just not that good.
I think its funny how some folks here think that JPP would have like two speeds: I'm going balls to the wall on this down so I get a big contract next year, and, nah, I'm playing it safe on this down so as not to get hurt before my big contract next year. Maybe, but I don't think this is exactly how it works.
That may sound like a pointed question, but I'm actually curious. (I suppose Martellus also did pretty well.)
but put me down as JPP not being as important as Hankins.
JPP is very replaceable, either by an edge rushing LB or a corner that can buy his replacement more time combined with the inside rush.
I'm hoping someone offers us 2 #1's for JPP or works out a trade. He's just not that good.
You are going to replace JPP with an edge LB? :D
His greatest strength is that he can not only rush the passer but seal the edge against the run. You aren't getting that with some rookie 3-4 edge rusher.
Except in the biggest game of the year. You do remember that playoff game right...
Wouldn't you have to keep JPP too if you don't want to fix what aint broken?
JPP is a better player than Hankins.
Everything aside, who is the better more important player? Hankins or JPP? If you even think of starting your answer with the letter H you are crazy.
I know money is a factor, but some of you are blinded by the cap and money aspects.
The money is better spent elsewhere.
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
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Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
The money is better spent elsewhere.
It could be if you are guaranteed to get your other targets at your price, which is also a massive risk.
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In comment 13374407 lono801 said:
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Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Logan Ryan won't solve that.
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In comment 13375346 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13374407 lono801 said:
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Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Logan Ryan won't solve that.
JPP played in the first Green Bay game...we all watched that embarrassment. I'm not sure I would use the second half of the Green Bay game as a good example.
JPP is a key player for The Giants...I'm not questioning that...but I'm not sure he is worth big money at the same time...
When it comes to Hank...I thought we all would have learned our lesson...when they let LJ walk...
I thought Snacks and Hanks complemented each other's game very well...
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In comment 13375352 Go Terps said:
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In comment 13375346 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13374407 lono801 said:
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Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
not so sure about that, losing DRC hurt, but the Giants line was gassed in the second half, got no pressure on Rodgers and DB's can't cover forever.
Logan Ryan won't solve that.
JPP played in the first Green Bay game...we all watched that embarrassment. I'm not sure I would use the second half of the Green Bay game as a good example.
JPP is a key player for The Giants...I'm not questioning that...but I'm not sure he is worth big money at the same time...
When it comes to Hank...I thought we all would have learned our lesson...when they let LJ walk...
I thought Snacks and Hanks complemented each other's game very well...
the defense played fine the first GB game even without a pass rush , or at least well enough to win.
the 3rd down they gave up on 3rd and 10 late in the 4th was bad, but otherwise holding GB to 23 points, 6 in the 2nd half should be good enough to win.
The Giants offense failure in the red zone is what killed them that game, and was also a factor in the WC playoff game too, but the defense in the 2nd half was swiss cheese and the Hail Mary changed the whole complexion of the game.
And I disagree on Hankins. He's a nice player, but I think he's sort of duplicitous with Snacks, just not as good, next to Snacks the Giants needs a DT who can get consistent pressure (like Hankins did in 2014 - his best season - but hasn't shown that ability since).
I'm sure some of my personal bias gets in the way when it comes to him and big money...I see JPP as a Me First guy...
When they let LJ walk...it left a huge gap until Hanks was drafted...that stuck with me...I viewed it as a short sighted move by Reese.
There is no right or wrong in cases like this
I'm sure some of my personal bias gets in the way when it comes to him and big money...I see JPP as a Me First guy...
When they let LJ walk...it left a huge gap until Hanks was drafted...that stuck with me...I viewed it as a short sighted move by Reese.
There is no right or wrong in cases like this
I agree no right or wrong.
I don't get much into the off-field stuff with these guys but once JPP blew his hand up I have been paying attention, and who knows with these athletes what is real and what is lip service, but when he talks about his re-dedication and focus and his appreciation for life (and dealing with his disabled father), I find it credible.
I don't know if he was selfish or a bully or whatever before, but he seems like a solid teammate now and I think he's a player who goes underappreciated.
Look at his PD (passes defensed) he bats down balls at the line, is stout against the run, and has enough pure power to be good enough rushing the passer. He never really developed technique like Strahan for example, but his speed and strength still allow him to be effective.
He's a rare breed in the NFL and the Giants have tried to get players to play opposite him with Damontre Moore, Owa Odi, etc. but none seem to be the right fit.
Replacing him will prove even more difficult IMO.
The money is better spent elsewhere.
That's just false. The money might be better spent elsewhere and even then we don't know if that player or collection of players are even available.
In your world there are 2-3 free agents readily waiting for the Giants to call and they will take reasonable contracts, play like madmen while eclipsing JPP's output and collectively earn the same total money that jpp would have earned here. That scenario is nice and dreamy but not likely. It's littered with pitfalls.
It's almost like we don't know what we're watching.
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In comment 13374407 lono801 said:
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Spags and this D didn't miss a beat without him...
Agree, that second half against Green Bay, you know, the game the Giants played in January that was more important than any other game, was stellar. More of that please.
Spend JPP'S money on Logan Ryan and that second half doesn't happen again. Now is the time to take the secondary from very good to elite (and deep).
Lol... right. Logan Ryan will cure everything. And the Giants will make Ryan their highest paid player, and the Giants will have not one not two not three but four investments at corner. And no pass rush and no DEs save for Vernon.
You are out of your mind.
What happens in this fantasy when Ryan signs with Atlanta ? The. What? Jpp is already on a plane to Washington... now what? Bye bye good defense hello 8-8.
People talk about risk...there is no bigger risk than allocating enormous money in a player that has played 1 full season in five years. So yeah let's double down on that.
Whether or not we use the money for Logan Ryan or anyone else, paying JPP like a cornerstone piece is bad business. Period. Saying otherwise is homer bullshit.
People talk about risk...there is no bigger risk than allocating enormous money in a player that has played 1 full season in five years. So yeah let's double down on that.
Whether or not we use the money for Logan Ryan or anyone else, paying JPP like a cornerstone piece is bad business. Period. Saying otherwise is homer bullshit.
Oh that's right the pass rush sucked the second half of the season. Except it didn't. It was one of the league's best based on pressures and hits and I believe even sacks. Remember the pass rush sack totals were extremely low after the first 6 games or so. This was an anomaly. And even if the passrush wasn't good the DL as a whole player terrific ball all year long. They DOMINATED the running game. But keep on hammering the bullshit that "the pass rush sucked" what total horse shit.
Oh by the way your boy Logan had 2 meaily ints all year long. You wanna make him an outside FA a cornerstone of this D when he only has 2 kicks all year long??? I don't profess to know the value of a pass defended stat but picks are picks. It's all about the picks. He ain't worth it. How good can he be if he only got 2 picks??? Can't be that good...
Clearly the best move is to replace one of them.
Oh wait....QB pressures don't count.
And round and round we go.
But you're nuts if you think this team is better by dropping JPP for Ryan. Nuts.